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[D&D 4E] This Thread is Defunct.
Maticore
A Will To PowerRegistered User regular
A Will To PowerRegistered User regular
Foulspawn
Foulspawn are deranged humanoids corrupted by contact with the Far Realm, a maddening and distant plane.
Today's Update is gigantic, see the town of fallcrest here.
Well, the release of the new game is right around the corner, so it's time to blow the lid off this thing. Since 4E was first announced, gamers have besieged us with phone calls, emails, and even a protest march demanding one thing above all else: How do swarms work in 4E?
Well, the day is at hand. We're about to pull back the curtain on what might be the greatest stride forward in swarm design known to mankind. But first, how did we end up in this glorious state?
Well, swarms are cool, but researching how we think swarms might actually work into D&D was not so cool. For this, we locked a designer in a sealed box with 100,000 ants. We threw rocks at hornets' nests, drop kicked beehives, and stuck our hands into crates of scorpions. From these experiences, we drew the following conclusions:
1. Oh my god, insects can sting.
2. No, seriously. That HURTS.
3. We decided that any of those feats were more fun than the 3E swarm rules.
The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game. Instead, we wanted rules that were evocative. You should feel like you're fighting a swarm, but that feeling should be less like boredom and more like "GET THESE THINGS OFF OF ME."
So, a few highlights about 4E swarms:
1. Swarms are hard to hurt. Hacking at a pile of bugs with a sword is inefficient, but it's also scary to face a monster that's hard to hurt. The swarm marches on in a relentless wave. We liked that feel, and we could easily set the swarm's hit points to balance the effect.
2. They're hard to push around, again to make them feel relentless.
3. They can go almost anywhere. Closing a door doesn't do much to slow down a swarm. The bugs simply crawl under it, or through the cracks in the door's frame.
Originally, a single swarm "monster" was four Medium size groups of creatures. They worked similarly to minions, but the effect on the table was disappointing. Swarms didn't feel like tides of hungry critters, more like disposable bags of hit points. We tried toughening them, but that worked against the 4-for-1 discount they offered. In the end, we dropped the split and worked to simplify and streamline our existing rules.
So, now the swarm piece of the 4E puzzle has fallen into place. 4th Edition is right around the corner, and with it endless waves of hungry bugs, drakes, and other nasties.
--Mike Mearls
From the Monster Manual Glossary:
Swarm: A swarm is considered a single monster even though it is composed of several Tiny creatures. Most single swarms are Medium, but some can be larger.
A swarm takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks. It is vulnerable to close and area attacks, as indicated in the monster’s stat block.
A swarm is immune to forced movement (pull, push, and slide) effects from melee and ranged attacks. Close or area attacks that impose forced movement affect the swarm normally.
A swarm can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by a swarm, but the space occupied by the swarm is considered difficult terrain, and doing so provokes an opportunity attack.
A swarm can squeeze through any opening large enough to accommodate even one of its constituent creatures. For example, a swarm of bats can squeeze through any opening large enough for one of the bats to squeeze through. See the Player’s Handbook for squeezing rules.
They've also got some rules and examples at the actual excerpt here.
This OP stolen from DevoutlyApathetic, but I'll improve it when I get to it!
Added 5/23/08: Actually, I have no intention of improving the OP!
Current news implies that the GSL (that lets people publish stuff for 4th D&D) includes language that makes it mutually exclusive with the OGL (the thing that let people publish stuff for 3.x D&D). Possibly over the entire depth of a company. [Insert Nerd Rage]
Lastest bit: Mini-PHB PDF. Collected info from various leaks in one handy place!
A new, now less ugly book edition is nigh!
Previous cover:
A new, uglier book edition is nigh!
This will be updated soon with more details (suggestions welcome) but for now:
Enworld, really the best place to find 4th edition information.
Wizards main site. A close 2nd.
Hell, otherwise known as the Wizards 4th edition board.
Latest news: OGL and SRD access will be restricted for the first 4 months to those willing to pony up 5 grand and sign some NDA's. Perhaps this will stem the tide of absolute crap in the opening months of 4th lifespan.
What's Changed?
A large amount. For a quick idea go buy Star Wars Saga edition.
Races:
Dwarves, Elves, Tieflings, Halfings and Humans are all returning. Gnomes won't appear in a Player's Handbook for about a year. We get the new Dragonborn and Eladrin. Tieflings are now going to appear in the PHB.
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Is this some foreshadowing of where Tyr will be headed in our game?
I like it too.
You have a certain amount of pieces alloted to you, and you can swap those pieces out freely
I love it
This is also going to work pretty well with my own designs.
This was my big problem with 3.x. It was too easy to make a character that just wasn't good, and I've always hated playing the optimization game.
I'm ecstatic for these changes.
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Yeah, great isn't it?
I think that's one of the biggest appeals, you're not going to fall behind the power curve no matter what your choices are in terms of character builds; characters with toes dipped into other classes won't fall behind the curve in relation to their 'straight up' counterparts
Yeah, and maybe odd combinations I always wanted to play like the Ranger/Cleric(scout healer) might be somewhat viable.
now, it sounds like you can take some feats, and/or also choose another class instead of a paragon path.
do i have that right or did i misread?
basically, i want some fighter or rogue capabilities with that melee ranger paragon class.
but not fighter and rogue and paragoniness.
((Fi or Ro) and Para) Ranger
I think the Balor looks like a complete badass
so what are the demonic proportions again? 12 horns tall and 3 tails wide?
edit: quoted the wrong person.
It seems like it has changed a lot from the developer blog posts I have read as well. I thought it was kind of neat when one of the guys was talking about how he was taking a fighter power in preparation for his paragon path that would let him use his sword as a wizard focus(implement? I forget). Also, I think it was in the podcast, they mentioned that they wanted to make gish a balanced and viable option again. I guess that never panned out. I will trust that its for the best(I think gish is lame anyways).
Incorrect
You can take those power-dabble feats at any level
If you want to do a 'full multiclass' you give up your paragon path.
(Example is probably not possible, but you know what I mean).
So do I. But I made the accident of reading the enworld thread about the preview art. Anatomical bitching just aggravates me to no god damned end.
It's a g'damn demon, who says it has to have logical anatomy. Thing lives on a different plane of existence for Vkandis' sake.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Incenjucar/img020.jpg
(Yes I am a terrible artist and no that is not a vagina it's a sideways mouth you pervs)
"The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat."
Unless I am just blatantly missing the obvious I'm not sure if you are correct.
You don't have to be level 11 to take one of those class-specific multiclass feats. The only prereqs for those are [insert pertinent ability] 13.
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yes, you did.
you can take that class-specific multiclass feat at 1st level.
say you're a ranger. you take "sneak of shadows" which makes you trained in theivery and allows you to sneak attack as a rogue of your level once per encounter.
now you can take the Novice Power feat.
this feat will allow you to swap one ranger power with one rogue power.
i don't know where you're getting this 11th level thing from.
Ahh...
"At 11th level, you can choose to forgo your paragon path in order to further specialize in a second class. "
That was the line that was confusing me.
24/7 on call really isn't good for my brain.
Yeah, I don't think the article went into too many specifics on the paragon path replacement, so I see how you got confused.
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Hmm....I think they mistyped a few things there....
Sorry, but their are fixes in place that address the majority of the issues they bring up. To treat it like it was some kind of Gordian knot that they should be lauded for fixing plays false.
As to the actual new rules I'm not positive the feats are really all that good. I really can't tell because we've seen very little of what feats actually do. Some of the class multiclass stuff seems very weak (Sneak attack, once an encouter! Woot!) but I guess that's because they're "extra" powers. I'm also always leery of paying for options twice (A feat and one of your own powers gets you a different classes power) but I think again this is to limit the amount of power available to any one character which is likely very wise.
I would think it's perfectly within their right to call it shit or gold regardless of what you think is good and proper :P
None of the lead 3.0 designers are anywhere near 4.0. The only name still associated might be Andy Collins and I've never once been impressed by his game design work. (AKA 3.5 the changes that didn't need to be made while ignoring those that did.)
DnD 3.0 was not produced by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams, and they do not own the rights to the franchise
I'm not saying that what they said is right or wrong or whatever, but you're grinding an axe for no good reason :P
I guess I'm just kinda bugged by the general tone the people running this edition have taken. With this and the GSL hijinx I'm not impressed.
Of course I'm grinding an ax for no reason, this is the internet.
(1) If you have a class system, keep it primarily a class system. Don't try to have a class system AND make it so customisable that classes lose all meaning. This is not to say that classes are bad or anything, just 3e was a clusterfuck of multi-ing.
(2) If multi-classing is always better than sticking with one class, many many players will do it. Multi-classing should be the exception rather than the rule. Why? Because then there's no point having the base classes.
I also like that the new system allows you to choose how much of the other class to have - the old 1e and 2e I used to play meant that you were, say, 50/50 Fighter/Thief. Now you can be a fighter who has lots of thief abilities, or just one. Nice.
There's really nothing saying that, chronologically from an in-character standpoint, that your multiclass feat choice represents your second class.
It could also represent a smattering of knowledge the character had from earlier in life, or a path they started to walk but abandoned.
It can be interesting from a character background standpoint that actually has mechanical effects.
For example:
A Cleric who grew up on the harsh streets of the City of Sails. A thief once, her faith in Pelor allowed her to rise up out of the gutter and find a new purpose for her life. Nonetheless, she sometimes catches her partymembers off-guard when she periodically displays rather in-depth knowledge of thievery and once in a while they notice her smash monsters with her mace in a rather sneaky and opportunistic fashion.
(Cleric with Sneak of Shadows)
For most Wizards, their apprenticeship was much like the life of a pageboy: fetching things for their master, cleaning an old Wizard's tower, just itching for a chance to learn some spells. However, for some, their education was made on the field of battle. For the apprentices of the War Wizards, it's not enough just to know a spell or two, the apprentices also learn tactics and how to command others. While hardly a soldier in the most traditional sense, this Wizard has seen a battle or two and knows more than most about how morale can turn the tide.
(Wizard with Student of Battle)
Most people see Paladins as champions of good, of unflinching knights in shining plate mail who strike down the evil in the name of righteousnesses. This Paladin is no different in this regard, known to all as kind, selfless, and brave. However, this Paladin also carries with him a dark secret: as a youth, his parents fell to the plague. Before he was put into the care of a local cathedral (which put him on the path to becoming a Paladin), the young man tried desperately to find a way to bring his family back. Researching fell rituals and dark power, he made a binding blood pact with Fiendish powers.
While the Paladin has since turned his back on that foolish error of a trauma-stricken youth, the Fiend he bound himself to has not.
The Paladin can still hear him, sometimes, at night. In his dreams. He still bears the power of that fell pact, and while he dare not call upon the "evil eye" he knows how to use in front of his comrades, he still sometimes exhibits rather unsettling knowledge of demons, devils, and dark magics. While it would be reasonable for a Wizard to exhibit this sort of in-depth knowledge, it is sometimes awkward for his party-members when he voices some dark knowledge but does not elaborate on how he knows of such things.
(Paladin with Pact Initiate)
Anyway, this looks like it could be really good, as long as Wizards keep a tight rein on what the "basic" multi-class feats give.
Which they can do now, with the new licence, conveniently enough.
Question though; in that article, the Power Feats all had levels associated with them. Does anyone know what that means?
At the moment, I'm assuming it's some sort of level cap, either a minimum to take the feat or a maximum power level fr the power you take. But I'm almost certainly wrong.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
My new Theory on the half elf: Gets a free Multiclass feat at first level.
EDIT:
On second thought, I'm wrong. The half elf would have the arcana skill if it got a free multiclass, probably the elf just gets another class' at will as an encounter, but that looks like the only way to get another class' at-will.