Ok, so here's my full color of that picture after considering some of what you said. I figured I'd just go with the cooler palette on this one, since the green was already there and although I tend to think the hot looks more awesome, I somehow am more comfortable picking cooler colors (dunno why?). Also, putting up the greyscale since I don't really know all that I'm looking for in value, so any help in that area (now that I've tried!) would be helpful as well. Also, I know you guys told me to cell shade, but cell shading is SOOO boring, I'd rather try to find a soft color style that fits my linework. >_> And I tried coloring the metal objects a little differently than the rest of the picture. The skin could maybe be a bit more blended, too, but let me know what you think. Edit: Desaturated the shading on the back of his vest at a friend's suggestion:

much better now that you got your values in check

Listen to Iruka, she clearly knows. Joseph albers is all kids of crazy awesome genius cool.

Ok, here's the next thing I've colored. Really took a good look at color theory before trying it and I think it turned out well.

you really need to work on your anatomy. The torso especially. Use some references for that kind of stuff.

Mmmm it's nice....few things though, the reflected lighting on the edge of the abdominals is confusing. It shouldn't really be reflected at all. His left hand (our right) pectoral muscle.....actually both pecs look flat in their structure. His right (to the left of screen) doesn't rotate correctly. Holding your arm in that position your bicep would face the screen almost head on and the palarmus longus (his forearm (yes I am looking these up)) would be facing more downward. The Serratus Anterior muscles (to the side of his abdominals) and his obliques, don't look like muscles....more like a weird, reinforced ribcage. The feet...well I think you just need to do more studies on feet. Don't let all that shit get you down though, it's a fine bit of work, but if you're going to define every muscle you really need to nail it or it's just not going to look quite right.

Ravenshadow: What? can you be more specific, 'cuz I thought i did a pretty good job. Though now that Mustang's mentioned it the ribcage is kind of odd. Other than that I think the torso's ok. Mustang: Edited it to not include the reflected light on his ab muscles. I admittedly am not going to change the arm, ribs, or the pecs, though you're certainly right about them. It's not that I necessarily got the ribs wrong, though, I don't think? I believe I defined them too heavily. Feet, that's pretty much what my feet look like, the larger toe spread apart from the others, but I do know I have some weird ass feet. I'll double check it against some refs next time. Like I said, pecs and the arm, you're definitely correct. I think I was perhaps trying to hard to measure up to this sketch I did a few days ago. The ribs and pecs look better to me there. Maybe I'm wrong again, though. Oh, and here it is without the reflected light. And thanks for the crits, really.

It just struck me what's bothering me with the feet, it's the lack of overlapping lines on the toes, which means they lack form. Oh and certainly don't re-work it, I wouldn't, that would be far too boring and frustrating.

Ravenshadow: What? can you be more specific, 'cuz I thought i did a pretty good job. Though now that Mustang's mentioned it the ribcage is kind of odd. Other than that I think the torso's ok. Mustang: Edited it to not include the reflected light on his ab muscles. I admittedly am not going to change the arm, ribs, or the pecs, though you're certainly right about them. It's not that I necessarily got the ribs wrong, though, I don't think? I believe I defined them too heavily. Feet, that's pretty much what my feet look like, the larger toe spread apart from the others, but I do know I have some weird ass feet. I'll double check it against some refs next time. Like I said, pecs and the arm, you're definitely correct. I think I was perhaps trying to hard to measure up to I did a few days ago. The ribs and pecs look better to me there. Maybe I'm wrong again, though. Oh, and here it is without the reflected light. And thanks for the crits, really. Reference pic abs don't go up to the breast. your missing a muscle group down his side, etc. Look at the shoulder and the arm compared to the reference. etc., etc., Had you not chosen to outline the muscles with stark black lines you might have gotten away with some of it. But you're painting and linework really bring out the flaws. Next time try painting in the muscles rather than outlining them and painting around your outlines.

arms and shoulders are well done, but the torso needs a tune up. Two of the biggest things I spotted are the rib cage areas, which on ripped individual would look nothing like that (check out some references to get a better illustration) Also the abs are sorta over defined and disproportionate. Again, check out some references to see what I'm talking about. I use this site religiously. http://www.posemaniacs.com/

The Torso has a lot of problems. The heavy outlining on the pecs, ribcage and abdominal muscles is inaccurate, but the even bigger problem is that they are so harsh and inorganic that they make him look like a plastic toy. The shape of the pecs and the way that they connect to the top of the bicep and deltoids is plain wrong. Get reference for someone lifting their arms up horizontally and straight into the air to get a better idea of how they connect together. The ribs are incorrectly drawn and waaay too pronounced along the bottom contour. There is muscle that interlaces through the ribs below the pecs, so a straight line is not adequate to describe them. Generally you can only see 3 full sets of abdominalis muscles, hence the term "6-pack". The pairs above the navel are wider than they are long. This poor guy seems to be completely missing his oblique muscles. The musculature on his right arm and the hand itself are passable and good, respectively. His left arm isn't so great though--The fist is out of perspective with the forearm, the way the bicep hits the deltoid and the musculature on the inner forearm is wrong. And as a final note, I have to say that this guy is freakishly lean. Looking at his torso if I saw someone like this in real life they would be grotesquely emaciated and probably seem to be on the verge of death. You should try to incorporate a little more fleshiness into that anatomy and get away from 0% bodyfat muscle suits.

Missing his lats too. Lighting seems a bit off to me. It's in the center of his body, but on his right ribs, and upper abs there are shadows along the bottom edge.

Ravenshadow; About the abs not reaching the pecs, you're Just Plain Wrong That picture you linked, I dunno what's up with it, really. I'm sure it's some body type, but it doesn't discount all the other ones. I'm not saying these abs are perfect, they're not, but they really don't belong so low in most people. I mean, I'm not muscular, but I can see my abs and they go up to my pectorals, too. Thanks for the further crits, guys. Mykonos, I did know about posemaniacs, but I had only used it to reference once or twice before. Maybe I'll keep it in mind for later pieces. Did a few studies from the poses, too: And Scosglen, I can definitely see what you're saying about adding more fat to him. He looks like he has muscular dystrophy now that I'm looking. >.< Which... could kind of fit with him being all voodoo, but not my intent and that's not an excuse, heh. Again, next time I'll try to reference more and definitely try to not think of each part of the body as separate (as I seem to be doing) and try to make sure it all flows together, too.

Radar, you're not quite understanding what you're seeing in those pics. Raven's correct. Take your fingers, poke them along the top of your ribs, It's a good 3-4" (just guestimation here) from the top of the ribs to the bottom of the pecs. Doing this will give you a CLEAR feeling for what you're seeing, and it will be obvious that your eyes are not quite telling you what you think they are. Reminds me of something I recently read in Drawing from the Right Side, where she discusses what you have put in your mind to be correct, isn't always correct. Draw what you see, not what you THINK you see. Those poses are closer to accurate there, and much more realistic. Why? Because you have the muscles in the right place. Were they from a reference?

Radar, you're not quite understanding what you're seeing in those pics. Raven's correct. Take your fingers, poke them along the top of your ribs, It's a good 3-4" (just guestimation here) from the top of the ribs to the bottom of the pecs. Doing this will give you a CLEAR feeling for what you're seeing, and it will be obvious that your eyes are not quite telling you what you think they are. Reminds me of something I recently read in Drawing from the Right Side, where she discusses what you have put in your mind to be correct, isn't always correct. Draw what you see, not what you THINK you see. Those poses are closer to accurate there, and much more realistic. Why? Because you have the muscles in the right place. Were they from a reference? Yes, they were from reference. As for the ribs, don't you meant the bottom of the rib to the bottom of the pecs? You're right, there are 3-4" there, but there are muscles over that bone. It's not just like the abs end there and it's rib. It's still an ab muscle. Unless I really have no idea what I'm talking about whatsoever. So the correct assessment isn't that I have the ab muscles too high, it's that I have the ribs too high, I think. Rather than tell me about my misplacement of muscles, tell me I misplaced the bones. :-P

EXACTLY - give me a little bit to cook some food, then I'll take what you just drew, then your elf shaman and show you EXACTLY where it gets wonky. I think once you see it, it'll click like "OOOOH yeah! now I see!" (sorry, just got home, worked late putting a grant together)

Well, to be honest, I definitely know what you're saying about the ribs. I'm pretty good with visualization and correcting things after a critique. But still, a paintover would be much appreciated.

Ok, this is pretty quick, but I hope it'll get the point across. You said you realized the ribs don't go right up to the pecs, and are overlapped with muscle - we agree. BUT, your drawing on the left doesn't show what you know. Note, you drew the ribs as if they DID come right up to the pecs - NOT overlapped with muscle. On the right you drew them more correctly. The ribs should be under (blue line) that first "ab" rather than over it (red line actual placement in drawing) ; but that would put them too low. Note how large the upper "ab" is so long on the left vs thin and wide on the top? In addition, that "ab", even though it's part of the ab muscle group; doesn't usually show up as part of the 6pack. See how his 6-pack starts below the ribs? Don't forget the lats either.

Ok, here's somethin' new. I'm not sure I added enough weight/bulk to his form, again, but I tried to get the muscles in the right places.

It's definately better, though I'm still feeling like your not giving the pectorals enough bulk. In laymans terms, they don't stick out enough. Also you might want to try some Loomis excercises on the head and faces, I think there is definate room for improvement there. Still props were props are due, it's much better than your last one, the legs are fucking great.

HUGE improvement. From face to toes. Especially in the mid torso which looks nailed to me, including the pecs. IMO they don't have to be any bigger for that build which reminds me of a swimmer or runner. Look at Phelps, his aren't any bigger than that. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler Now some swimmers will have bigger pecs, but everyone is different. Your drawings pecs look fine to me.

Ok, this one, I was a little worried about the ribs being too defined. But he is a thinner guy and I'm not sure how else I'd do them. I know the pose is static, and I've done a number of fairly static poses lately. Next one I do I'm gonna try to throw in some more action. Also, I know you said that the last one's pecs were ok (and I agree with you, some people have smaller pecs), but I still tried to stick these pecs out a little more, to make sure I could do it.