You can also fudge the lore by arguing that, since he took control of Frostmourne and became the Lich King, Arthas' power has grown immeasurably. And wasn't Sunwell about unlocking a portal for Kil'Jaeden to enter the world or something? Perhaps you could argue that you fight him in a suboptimal state? I dunno. This whole pissing contest of who should be stronger than who is just silly sometimes. It is. And ultimately it doesn't matter. This whole conversation started because someone said "25 people being able to kill Arthas is BS, he's too powerful for that" without any regard for what this game has historically done with lore figures. Kil'Jaeden wasn't killed, he left after you beat him enough, with all sorts of spells and things helping you. You loot his necklace that he leaves behind. Arbitrary distinction. Ok, he was "defeated." So it's reasonable to expect that people 10 levels higher could "defeat" Arthas.

All this lore talk makes me want to play the War3 campaigns (for like the 6th time)

It is. And ultimately it doesn't matter. This whole conversation started because someone said "25 people being able to kill Arthas is BS, he's too powerful for that" without any regard for what this game has historically done with lore figures. On the other hand, Thrall's been killed by players thousands of times without any ill effect on the overall storyline.

Can anyone on Ravenholdt craft a Tempered Saronite Belt?

I went to the Rogue forum the other day and nearly vomited. It was a cesspit (this is a word, huh) beyond any cesspool (this one too!) I'd ever imagined. Ditto. It's ... a cesscrevasse. It's the cessmarinastrench. Then I went to the Mal'ganis server forum and it was actually worse.

I don't know that Frostmourne is at all important in terms of Arthas' power. I thought the Lich King's immense power came from his psychic abilities, which were multiplied by the frozen throne(maybe he's incorporated them into himself now that he's free?) and the greater his legion of undead is, the more powerful he gets.

One thing you should keep in mind is that to date, WoW has been a rather closed universe. I mean, you're essentially stuck on this one planet, in one dimension. Then BC comes along, and people have figured out how to travel to one other dimension. Except that in this alternate dimension, the planet has already failed and is falling to pieces. How many more dimensions are there for us to visit? How many of those dimensions have powerful beings? There's an entire universe out there for us to explore. Except Arthas, unlike the rest of the entire universe, is sort of important in the lore. And Kil'jadean wasn't killed, he was only beaten back. He stuck his hand in the cookie jar and we bit his finger. He took his hand out, but we didn't do much else.

arthas may be the most powerful dude on azeroth, but that doesn't mean he is the smartest... seems like his arrogance, his recklessness, and his unwillingness to take warnings seriously, the same character flaws that got him into this mess, are gonna come back and bite him in the ass once the icecrown raid instance opens up.

Damn, someone beat me to the Dragon Ball Z analogy. They won't be afraid to kill off lore characters. Illidan and Zul'Jinn are proof of that. Both of which my girlfriend obsessed over - especially Illidan. She went on and on about how she would lose interest in wow now that her 2 favorite characters were dead - but now she is up to her neck in WotLK and seems to have new targets of her obsessions: Malygos and Rhonin. Which the latter is nice, because now she will have a character in the story to rant and rave about who isn't doomed to die. You can also fudge the lore by arguing that, since he took control of Frostmourne and became the Lich King, Arthas' power has grown immeasurably. And wasn't Sunwell about unlocking a portal for Kil'Jaeden to enter the world or something? Perhaps you could argue that you fight him in a suboptimal state? I dunno. This whole pissing contest of who should be stronger than who is just silly sometimes. Right, Kil'Jaedan hadn't entered the world of Azeroth just yet - he was still making the attempt through the Sunwell. So it is very possible Kil'Jaedan was not as powerful as he could have been. Which I think is the whole plot for the final encounter there - stop KJ before he makes it out. From that, it stands to reason that Kil'jaeden was more powerful than either of them. And he was killed by 25 people at 70. I don't think KJ is dead. Merely driven back through the Sunwell. I do not believe we have seen the last of him. I wouldn't be shocked if there was an expansion that deals with the Legion head-on. Not like BC, but - 'time to go to their demon infested plane and kick some ass'. Wasn't Ragnaros technically more powerful than Arthas or the lich king, second only to the titans and old gods? Once again, this is speculation - but I do believe Ragnaros was awakened prematurely. TOO SOON EXECUTUS blah blah. Also, not all the Old Gods were equal in power if I understand the lore correctly. Would explain why some Old Gods were destroyed - while others the Titans could only imprison. Speaking of Old Gods - I bet Yogg'Saron will be for WotLK what Kil'Jaedan was for BC. Arthas will be the runner-up for 'Most terrible force threatening the world'.

Kil'Jaeden wasn't killed, he left after you beat him enough, with all sorts of spells and things helping you. You loot his necklace that he leaves behind. Edit: Ok, just checked: Anveena gets sacrificed to weaken him, then the energies of the sunwell react against him, and he gets banished back to the nether. Also I think he was still coming through the portal while you are fighting him? Isnt the first time you fight the 'weakened' form of a boss (eg Ragnaros) EDIT: Beat'd.

arthas may be the most powerful dude on azeroth, but that doesn't mean he is the smartest... seems like his arrogance, his recklessness, and his unwillingness to take warnings seriously, the same character flaws that got him into this mess, are gonna come back and bite him in the ass once the icecrown raid instance opens up. That and the fact that he will inevitably drop Frostmourne, which will allow people to rape him even faster.

I'm going to be disappointed if Arthas is not the final boss of WoTLK. He should be more than powerful enough and a great enough threat to fit the bill, plus it's so much better that he'd be the final dude of dudes because of his great betrayal.

my prediction vis a vis arthas fight... Great Uther's Ghost! Edit: Also, Ulduar is coming out before Icecrown. Dunno if Yoggy himself will be the boss of that, or just some minor part of him, but Arthas is probably being saved for last. I bet all those miners are looking forward to mining Yoggy's carcasse, though.

arthas may be the most powerful dude on azeroth, but that doesn't mean he is the smartest... seems like his arrogance, his recklessness, and his unwillingness to take warnings seriously, the same character flaws that got him into this mess, are gonna come back and bite him in the ass once the icecrown raid instance opens up. That and the fact that he will inevitably drop Frostmourne, which will allow people to rape him even faster. I hope that Frostmourne can't drop. If it can I hope that I get it.

And then Sargeras comes and wipes out the universe with a hiccup.

blizzard has repeatedly stated that character level does not denote power. It has to be a game at some point. So defeating someone at lvl 60 does not mean he is weaker than a lvl 70 or lvl 80.

blizzard has repeatedly stated that character level does not denote power. It has to be a game at some point. So defeating someone at lvl 60 does not mean he is weaker than a lvl 70 or lvl 80. Nonsense. Grand Widow Faerlina could kick Ragnaros' ass in a fight.

Damn, someone beat me to the Dragon Ball Z analogy. They won't be afraid to kill off lore characters. Illidan and Zul'Jinn are proof of that. Both of which my girlfriend obsessed over - especially Illidan. She went on and on about how she would lose interest in wow now that her 2 favorite characters were dead - but now she is up to her neck in WotLK and seems to have new targets of her obsessions: Malygos and Rhonin. Which the latter is nice, because now she will have a character in the story to rant and rave about who isn't doomed to die. Illidan is a pussy and always has been. Really, he absorbed the Skull of Gul'dan, beat Ticondrius and ... that's it. Everything else he's done, he's fucked up and lost.

arthas may be the most powerful dude on azeroth, but that doesn't mean he is the smartest... seems like his arrogance, his recklessness, and his unwillingness to take warnings seriously, the same character flaws that got him into this mess, are gonna come back and bite him in the ass once the icecrown raid instance opens up. That and the fact that he will inevitably drop Frostmourne, which will allow people to rape him even faster. I think complaining that "Omg 25/10/etc people are killing Arthas!" is silly because we all know what will really happen. We will be "assisting" Mograine and Fordring. You don't REALLY think that those two are gonna let a pack of no-names destroy Arthas alone do you? Final battle is gonna be something like Light's Hope, only its your group and the Knights of the Ebon Blade fighting your way to Arthas like in AQ20 and the gauntlet. Then something like the "freeing Thrall" encounter from Durnholde will happen with Fordring and Mograine. Your party will probably be keeping adds off of the two of them or healing them or providing DPS for Arthas (but probably all three).

arthas may be the most powerful dude on azeroth, but that doesn't mean he is the smartest... seems like his arrogance, his recklessness, and his unwillingness to take warnings seriously, the same character flaws that got him into this mess, are gonna come back and bite him in the ass once the icecrown raid instance opens up. That and the fact that he will inevitably drop Frostmourne, which will allow people to rape him even faster. I hope that Frostmourne can't drop. If it can I hope that I get it. http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne#BlizzCon_revelation

And then Frostmourne will drop, and Icritzyoulol the level 80 warrior will be able to dual-wield it with a Warglaive of Azzinoth. Edit: Can't read that from work, Grundle. What's it say?

I'm going to be disappointed if Arthas is not the final boss of WoTLK. He should be more than powerful enough and a great enough threat to fit the bill, plus it's so much better that he'd be the final dude of dudes because of his great betrayal. Well so far there isn't enough info to go on. I'm just flinging out suspicions. But the current lore could hint either way. Either Yogg'Saron is very subtle and is manipulating all the events in Northrend to his advantage, or he is a weakened Old God desperately trying to break free. Beings that Loken, defacto leader of the Pantheon on Azeroth - has all but declared Yogg'Saron the true master of this world, I suspect the first. And then Sargeras comes and wipes out the universe with a hiccup. Not yet. But there is still plenty of lore for Blizzard to milk $$ out of, and there might be an expansion where the Titans return. Uldum still hasn't opened! /shakes fist

says that whoever gets frostmourne becomes the new lich king. Also, the sword is weirdly itemized... +100 str and +100 int? Who uses that?

says that whoever gets frostmourne becomes the new lich king. Also, the sword is weirdly itemized... +100 str and +100 int? Who uses that? It's not a real item yet. For Halfmex * Frostmourne * Binds when picked up * Unique * Sword * Two-Hand * Speed 4.00 * 597 - 896 Damage * (186.6 damage per second) * +100 Strength +200 Stamina +150 Intellect * Requires Level 80 * Equip: The wielder of Frostmourne will become the new Lich King. * "Hail to the king, baby!" It was a joke teaser item. They point out the equip obviously couldn't exist, because then you'd end up with

Arthas isn't the most powerful character for sure. I think (exluding the other Titans) Sargeras would be the most powerful 'bad guy' of the Warcraft universe. That said, my issue wasn't that 10 people are killing the most powerful being in the universe so much as killing the most compelling character that I've seen in the warcraft lore. Essentially it just boils down to me being butthurt over what I fear is the inevitable downfall of the best character Blizzard's created for this franchise. Of course that's subjective, but that's my opinion on the matter. I might be open to Arthas' redemption, and I think they could pull it off, but I'd rather not see them go that route. That said, we all know that in the end Blizzard's "$ > Lore" methodology will win.