Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler I don't think they ever got into whether Angel's death would result in him going to hell or simply ceasing to exist. That wasn't really the point. The hell it wasn't. That was the most important thing. He was doing everything he possibly could for good. Yeah, no one thought he could erase the bad he had done. It was about him no longer being, eventually, punished for it. Well, that's what I thought it was about. More or less... What kind of moral is, "Don't stop fighting evil." You need to rewatch Season 2 of Angel. It shouldn't be hard since it's the best arc either Buffy or Angel ever did. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler The ending of that arc is his epiphany. His realization that YOU CAN'T WIN. But, as Angel says, if nothing we do matters, if there's no big win, no grand scheme, then all that matters is what we do. Right here and now. And that's the point. He can't beat evil. He can't make up for the shit he's done. He can't win. All he can do is keep fighting. To keep doing good. That's the point of the ending. His redemption doesn't matter, what matters is what he does. Hence the last line of the series "Let's go to work.". Back into the fray, no rest for the wicked and so on. Back to the grindstone, doing good.

"Evil wins in the end, but at least we didn't give up." Seems rather Nordic, cruel. I just rewatched episode 8 of Season 1 of Angel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Will_Remember_You_(Angel) The story itself is just so fucking sadistic. Just. So. Fucking. Sadistic. But Gellar's acting is just... it's just so amazing. It's too good. It makes an unbearable story worse. It's the fucking worst. I had completely forgotten about this. I've seen all of Angel. I missed almost all of the 'Conner' arc, but I saw the last season, and most everything else. But I forgot this completely. Whedon is a demon. If you want a severe boost to your day, skip to about 39 minutes into the video. http://www.hulu.com/watch/23649/ange...l-remember-you

"Evil wins in the end, but at least we didn't give up." Seems rather Nordic, cruel. Evil doesn't "win" though. Holland Manners (the best villain in Angel and I'd say in Buffy too) calls winning "prosaic". They don't care about winning. Because it's meaningless. All evil wants to do is ... exist.

"Evil wins in the end, but at least we didn't give up." Seems rather Nordic, cruel. Evil doesn't "win" though. Holland Manners (the best villain in Angel and I'd say in Buffy too) calls winning "prosaic". They don't care about winning. Because it's meaningless. All evil wants to do is ... exist. I'm strictly speaking of control of Earth and humanity's fate. Evil defeated, Evil kept in balance but always still there and Evil ruling Earth are all separate fates. I probably will rewatch the series, but it's not something I can do in but a day.

You need to rewatch Season 2 of Angel. It shouldn't be hard since it's the best arc either Buffy or Angel ever did. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler (Its not even the best story arc of Season 2s in the Buffyverse)

You need to rewatch Season 2 of Angel. It shouldn't be hard since it's the best arc either Buffy or Angel ever did. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler I wouldn't even know to compare, but that still seems like a perfect reaction.

I haven't really found Dushku's acting to be atrocious in the series yet. I definitely thought that the second episode was the stronger one, though. As for the lack of characters to empathize with...I'm willing to bet that Ballard is going to start bringing together a group of plucky mercenaries to help him raid the Dollhouse outside of federal jurisdiction, because he would do that. They are going to help Dushku and maybe one or two other dolls escape, and then we have ourselves a cast that we can work with. The show will still follow the young doctor and Echo's handler, but I feel that's the only way this show can go at this point...there are just too few characters to empathize with, because most of them are empty shells half the time.

Yea, it's been mentioned before, but the future plotlines seem like a weakness of the concept to me. It seems inevitable that Echo will get free of the company hiring her out as a hooker eventually, but then what? If the company isn't uploading new personalities to her, then where's the concept of the show gone? And even if they take the tech with them, why would she voluntarily overwrite her personality on a regular basis? It seems like a show written to only have one season.

She could end up with multiple personalities with different skills for different situations. From there's she either a Swiss Army Knife trying to bring down the Dollhouse, or she's on a roadtrip to discover which of her personalities is the real her, or maybe something else altogether.

Yea, it's been mentioned before, but the future plotlines seem like a weakness of the concept to me. It seems inevitable that Echo will get free of the company hiring her out as a hooker eventually, but then what? If the company isn't uploading new personalities to her, then where's the concept of the show gone? And even if they take the tech with them, why would she voluntarily overwrite her personality on a regular basis? It seems like a show written to only have one season. Nothing wrong with that. It's looked like a show that could only sustain a few seasons right from concept.

Yea, it's been mentioned before, but the future plotlines seem like a weakness of the concept to me. It seems inevitable that Echo will get free of the company hiring her out as a hooker eventually, but then what? If the company isn't uploading new personalities to her, then where's the concept of the show gone? And even if they take the tech with them, why would she voluntarily overwrite her personality on a regular basis? It seems like a show written to only have one season. Nothing wrong with that. It's looked like a show that could only sustain a few seasons right from concept. I'm absolutely fine with the idea of a one (or two) season show. I mean this in general, not just from Whedon. Not every show needs to run seven seasons. Also, apparently Dushku is doing Dollhouse-themed Hulu commercials or something. Haven't seen it yet, but the wife was telling me about it. May help ratings.

Yea, it's been mentioned before, but the future plotlines seem like a weakness of the concept to me. It seems inevitable that Echo will get free of the company hiring her out as a hooker eventually, but then what? If the company isn't uploading new personalities to her, then where's the concept of the show gone? And even if they take the tech with them, why would she voluntarily overwrite her personality on a regular basis? It seems like a show written to only have one season. Nothing wrong with that. It's looked like a show that could only sustain a few seasons right from concept. I'm absolutely fine with the idea of a one (or two) season show. I mean this in general, not just from Whedon. Not every show needs to run seven seasons. Also, apparently Dushku is doing Dollhouse-themed Hulu commercials or something. Haven't seen it yet, but the wife was telling me about it. May help ratings. I've seen one. But it was on during Dollhouse, so probably not going to help ratings.

I've seen one. But it was on during Dollhouse, so probably not going to help ratings. Yeah, she saw it last night...probably during either House or 24. So still on FOX, but during other popular FOX shows.

It seems like a show written to only have one season. I'd like to also voice my support for this. I hope this is what happens; because otherwise it's likely to follow the trend of most television shows, go strong for a few seasons, get dragged out too long or the story starts to get bogged down, and the entire near-decade story lacks unity and intent. On the other side of the fence, I sort of see this almost as a set-up for a longer show. In my opinion, Whedon is planting the seeds of a few character-groups that will either merge or at least form that group of likeable characters. Spoiled because I'm going to be referencing reveals and plot already established. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler Dushku doesn't need to keep her premise, and it's almost integral in my opinion that she doesn't. I doubt she has the range to pull off more than 8 truly unique characters (some rather good actors can't manage three, even given a few years to do so); a full season of different characters? Three seasons of different characters? I support the idea in the sense that I like change, but I don't think the best actors could pull off 70 truly unique characters. I suspect that Echo will escape/defect/retire/whatever once she becomes suitably superheroic schizophrenic. She will be easily disturbed, weaknesses from the various characters will serve as her kryptonite, while she forms her superhero. Right now, they're building powers; one part pleasant-girl, one part hard-boiled negotiator, one (requisite) part adventurer. One direction they could take this (the one I expect) She'll probably have a badass part, but when she teams up with Ballard and Alpha, Alpha will be the knife-from-the-shadows badass role. "Where's Alphaaaughgg" he might be a schizophrenic too, which is where the Wash-as-the-role part comes in, if he keeps a bit of his trademarked character. He'll switch from cutting people sternum-to-rectum to black-humor in a coinflip. Ballard will end up being the Batman of the group, without the enhancements, but doing general clever cruelties. They will be teaming up against an out-of-control Dollhouse that may or may not end up being taken over by some other extraneous agent, or replicated externally (another Dollhouse clinic, only eviller). Maybe this is the straw that breaks Science-guy's back, or maybe he converted earlier to be the nerd-hero. Pros: Changing the episodic formula breathes new life into the seires, and prevents staleness (a lot of people complain about House's formula, despite the occasional attempt to break it up; also see Stargate, where an episode meant a new world, but later arching story-lines crossed the structure). Retains not only the principle concept (villians will be programmed), but also introduces grey-area villians (they're shooting at you because they're programmed to do it, not because they hate happiness!), and stretches the team assembly out over a half-season or longer. Cons: Some people complain about House, but it's doing well for itself I'm sure. Principle concept remains, but not episodic structure; you wont be able to just jump in anywhere if that I suggested happens. Hero overlap, unless they clearly differentiate some character roles (Echo is the Face, Alpha the Ninja, Ballard/Handler as social-muscle) Of course, lots of things can happen, this is just a guess obviously. I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if Whedon split the wacky lovable characters into two groups, that the audience follows either in tandem, or through following Echo's interactions with them. lol conjecture wall of text.

Yeah, I can't say I really see the Dollhouse as it is now staying around long without quickly becoming an evil organization that a rogue Echo + BSG dude + nerd guy and/or handler must contend with. The heads of Dollhouse strike me as pretty terrible human beings and not the sort who would be willing to risk exposure should Echo leave/get back her personality/become a ninja/etc. I'm expecting the show to end up a lot like Alias.

Yea, it's been mentioned before, but the future plotlines seem like a weakness of the concept to me. It seems inevitable that Echo will get free of the company hiring her out as a hooker eventually, but then what? If the company isn't uploading new personalities to her, then where's the concept of the show gone? And even if they take the tech with them, why would she voluntarily overwrite her personality on a regular basis? It seems like a show written to only have one season. Nothing wrong with that. It's looked like a show that could only sustain a few seasons right from concept. As long as it is a good one (or two) seasons, I'm in.

If we're discussing the limitations of where an evil Dollhouse concept can go, consider all the mileage that Angel got out of Wolfram & Hart. Perhaps Echo and co. could wind up running the place for awhile. Perhaps Evil Bitch Boss Lady is the proxy for the Real Villain. Perhaps there's more to it than profit motive. Who knows? There's a ton of potential.

I haven't read the comics other than the first couple of "After the Fall" so I don't know what happens in them... but I never got the impression that the writers were trying to imply him literally going to hell after death was a major risk that Angel was trying to avoid. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler Sure, he went to hell that one time when Buffy "killed" him, but that was because, as Angelus, he was in the midst of opening a portal to a very specific hell dimension, and he got sucked into the portal when it closed. It wasn't from him getting dusted or anything. I can't think of any time when the series specifically addressed what would happen to his soul after he died. They did talk about him wanting to be human and have a real life, but that was about as far as it went, from what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong and there is some part where they talk about him going to hell post-death or something. In one of the Season 5 episodes (the one with the ghost of the serial killer) Spike tells Angel about how he is starting to worry that he is going to go to Hell when all this is over. Angels response is basically duh. So at the very least the characters thought that is what was goingt o happen.

I haven't read the comics other than the first couple of "After the Fall" so I don't know what happens in them... but I never got the impression that the writers were trying to imply him literally going to hell after death was a major risk that Angel was trying to avoid. Spoiler: show spoiler hide spoiler Sure, he went to hell that one time when Buffy "killed" him, but that was because, as Angelus, he was in the midst of opening a portal to a very specific hell dimension, and he got sucked into the portal when it closed. It wasn't from him getting dusted or anything. I can't think of any time when the series specifically addressed what would happen to his soul after he died. They did talk about him wanting to be human and have a real life, but that was about as far as it went, from what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong and there is some part where they talk about him going to hell post-death or something. In one of the Season 5 episodes (the one with the ghost of the serial killer) Spike tells Angel about how he is starting to worry that he is going to go to Hell when all this is over. Angels response is basically duh. So at the very least the characters thought that is what was goingt o happen. I always did wonder about that. Vampires are soulless shells inhabited by demons. Presumably the soul goes on to whatever afterlife there is when they're turned. Unless they do something truly horrible after being re-souled, why should this change any? The only reason they feel guilt is because they share the memories of what their bodies did.

This thread went from "its going to be canceled" to "it has to be a short series" in two episodes. That has to say something.

If we're discussing the limitations of where an evil Dollhouse concept can go, consider all the mileage that Angel got out of Wolfram & Hart. Perhaps Echo and co. could wind up running the place for awhile. Perhaps Evil Bitch Boss Lady is the proxy for the Real Villain. Perhaps there's more to it than profit motive. Who knows? There's a ton of potential. There has to be right? I think there has already been a reference to "Higher Ups."

This thread went from "its going to be canceled" to "it has to be a short series" in two episodes. That has to say something. I think it says "it has lasted two episodes."

This thread went from "its going to be canceled" to "it has to be a short series" in two episodes. That has to say something. It's gonna be canceled anyway People are just talking about what would happen if it weren't canceled

This thread went from "its going to be canceled" to "it has to be a short series" in two episodes. That has to say something. It's gonna be canceled anyway People are just talking about what would happen if it weren't canceled I thought Fox promised not to cancel it until after the first season?

Whedon has said he has planned it to be 5 seasons and then end. I'll find a source. Although after the fact that the damn episode, "I Will Remember You" has ruined my day, I don't know that I'm even prepared to offer my patronage to the show. Whedon and I have an abusive relationship.