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Insane game dev asks pirates to email him
cliffski
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Ok, I admit that would be me, doing it here:
http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/?p=76
the thing is, I was inspired by this excellent penny arcade strip:
in combination with some other stories regarding games costing more on PC than consoles (and the usage of this as justification for piracy) to think about the thought processes behind people pirating games. Obviously, as a game dev, I'm specifically worried most about my own (see sig).
99% of the time when people flame on an internet forum about piracy, they are either preaching to the converted, or ranting furiously at a company they know is ignoring them.
So I'm trying to be different, and doing something that I suspect may be akin to ignoring the advice of not mentioning the war, or working with children and animals, and I'm actively asking people who specifically pirated my games, to tell me why, and how I could have persuaded them to have bought them instead.
Is this mad? Should we never discuss this? Is it better to keep the devs in one corner, and the pirates in another, and pretend each other do not exist? I think not. I've seen these forums be more grown-up and reasonable than most, and thought it might be possible to have a sensible debate on the issue here.
So forgetting photoshop, forgetting mp3s, forgetting movies, the RIAA, MPAA, BSA etc etc etc, and thinking purely about SMALL BUDGET and indie games..... If you pirate them, why do you? and what would change your mind?
http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/?p=76
the thing is, I was inspired by this excellent penny arcade strip:
in combination with some other stories regarding games costing more on PC than consoles (and the usage of this as justification for piracy) to think about the thought processes behind people pirating games. Obviously, as a game dev, I'm specifically worried most about my own (see sig).
99% of the time when people flame on an internet forum about piracy, they are either preaching to the converted, or ranting furiously at a company they know is ignoring them.
So I'm trying to be different, and doing something that I suspect may be akin to ignoring the advice of not mentioning the war, or working with children and animals, and I'm actively asking people who specifically pirated my games, to tell me why, and how I could have persuaded them to have bought them instead.
Is this mad? Should we never discuss this? Is it better to keep the devs in one corner, and the pirates in another, and pretend each other do not exist? I think not. I've seen these forums be more grown-up and reasonable than most, and thought it might be possible to have a sensible debate on the issue here.
So forgetting photoshop, forgetting mp3s, forgetting movies, the RIAA, MPAA, BSA etc etc etc, and thinking purely about SMALL BUDGET and indie games..... If you pirate them, why do you? and what would change your mind?
cliffski on
Posts
Edit: I thought we could be open here,my shrink told me to be open,why can't you let me open up, apotheos?
I just don't see why I should pay twice.
Please stop derailing this thread with this line of inquiry.
Please don't consider this request as me disagreeing with you either (pretty please), but I'm here to maintain order and this is just a ad hominem slide into despair.
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No discussion on how to pirate, or places that help people pirate
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because it's a different product? when I wanted to play dark messiah and my pc wasn't working I went and bought the X Box version because it is a different product and there's no real basis for me not paying for it other than "well I don't want to".
Moral justifications for piracy are almost always awful.
You say that, Apo says this (as he definitely should):
So I think you need to realise that there's a difference between people not talking about in on PA because we're mature and pay for games, and not talking about it because you'd be banned pretty quickly. For the record, I don't pirate, but Chance's statement made me lol irl. I just don't think PA is some bastion of morality in regards to pirating, or at least there's no proof of it.
For an indie developer, my guess would be if you have:
1. Set a reasonable price for the product
2. Released a demo which lets me taste the MAJOR game mechanics to see if I like them (That is- if you have driving levels, but I don't get to play one- I don't know how your game handles driving levels)
and
3. Found a way to give me incentive to buy through extras (cloth map in Neverwinter Nights) or even an instruction book containing an art section.
You know, for a small developer, maybe for number 3 you mail everyone who registers their serial number something extra, like box art signed, I don't know, I'm thinking "out loud."
The deck is stacked against you, so I think your OP is a step in a good direction toward creative problem solving. Good luck!
Which again, is pretty shitty justification no? If you can't afford nice things, you don't get to have nice things. That's how our society works. You don't just get to have things because you want them. The guy who said "I downloaded Oblivion to try it out and deleted it after a week" is a fun example too. You can finish and conquer around 90% of games, including Oblivion, in a week. You didn't download it to try it out. You just took it.
If you want to try a game out, buy it. If you want to know if you'll like it before you buy it, read reviews, ask your friends if it is good. If you don't want to play games without demos, just don't play them. Do your part in telling devs that not having a demo is uncool. If you buy the game and hate it, that's your bad luck. I bought Hitman 2, it sucked ass, I still have it and I'm not particularly mad because I understand that every time you buy a game you run the risk of it sucking ass.
A big grey area for me, though exists in both music and software: when the items are no longer in production and available for mainstream purchase. If I can buy something, I usually will. However, if the item is unavailable for purchase-- and I mean as a new, unmolested item, I start to get wary. Buying used is something I don't mind from my local EB, where I can take it back if there's a problem; but buying a copy of a game/music only to find it's scratched and the seller doesn't care; I'm not willing to waste my cash.
This is becoming a little less common now with Steam/Gametap resurrecting the classics, but Direct Download has always scared me, quite frankly. There's always a back-of-my-mind fear that my software, that I paid for, will disappear.
tl;dr: My opinion is that if a company is not making an active effort to make their software available, piracy shouldn't be an issue for them. If you want money for your products, make them easily available to me. No jumping through hoops, no eBay sellers, no complex internet searches and hiked prices for this rare piece of plastic, just sell me your product.
EDIT:
So true. My original copies of Splinter Cell and Halo cost me all of 10 bucks. When the used copies are available, fair priced, and backed by a quality guarantee, go used.
XBL: LiquidSnake2061
Sure,it's the right thing to wait until you can,but come on, we all now that there are loads of people who break under this kind of "pressure".
I also 'pirated' the PC version of King Kong. Starforce...
My Alpha Centauri disc broke, and I couldn't find a new one, so I 'pirated' that too, although I ended up buying another copy next time I saw it.
I play a bunch of Snes/megadrive games I own on emulators too.
I backed up all my oxbox games and mostly played them off the hard drive, not having to worry about discs, and shorter load times for the win. I do the same with all my DVDs, and my DS games.
Basically, if you offer your product to customers without DRM, or with good DRM (Steam, for example), and are open and honest about the software they are buying then there is not many legitimate excuses for piracy.
Edit:
^This. I have gotten pretty much every 360 game I wanted to play from it's first 18 months, and some more recent all for under £10 by just being patient. Some I disliked, and some I loved.
Edit2: I have 'pirated' a few games for benchmark purposes, to see if it will run well enough on my PC whenever it hasn't had a demo, and either deleted it if it won't run well, or deleted it and bought it if it did. Min spec is often a terrible guide these days.
XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
I purchase games because if I like a game enough to want it, then I want sequels for it, more games along the same lines, and more products from that same developer. I want them to know that this is a good thing and I'm willing to pay to get more of it in future. "Good" or "Evil" doesn't come into it, I'm doing this so that I get to have fun.
It's also in particular why I make a point of purchasing the indie games that I've tried demos for and enjoyed. Honestly, there have been one or two games that weren't that great, that I wouldn't ordinarily purchased if they were from a big name developer. But I bought them from an indie because I want to get something better in future using the same concept.
Tetris DS and Clubhouse Games and other assorted portable first party games that are out of print, however...
The few times I do it it's
D) They want the game, and would like to legitimately purchase it but it's difficult to find and no longer in print.
Yeah? I did buy it. I tried to pirate it because even when I tried to install it the legit copy would not run. I don't have any issue with cracking or pirating a game that I've already frigging paid for. Yes I know, it drives piracy figures up, abloo abloo. Sod it, I bought it, I am GOING to try and play it.
They never told you on the box if it had starforce, a lot of the time I only found out after buying it. If the law was properly enforced I would have been able to get a refund, but I would basically have to take the publisher to court to ever get that, and lord knows they would be able to outlaywer me.
Isn't that game supposed to be horrible? And you bought two copies?
Well done sir, well done.
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Edit: and stability varies a lot depending on the system, it was fine for me, but I hear some horror stories.
Caveat emptor. And don't tell that info is hard to find on the internet because we all know it isn't.
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If you've paid for it, I don't care if you download it. If you broke your game disk and download it I don't really consider that dishonest (the whole "you're not buying the product, you're buying the license to play it" thing cuts two ways, fuckers).
I also consider abandonware to be a seperate issue from piracy.
Individuals would rather pirate the games to derive benefits in the short run, even at the expense of the gaming community(more true for pc gaming, like hurting indie game developers even if they come up with good innovative gaming mechanism, or anti-piracy technology) in the long run.
Though as some have forementioned and attested to, some developers really give shoddy excuse not to rectify technical issues, and therefore being really unjustified in earning the profit.
It is absolutely horrible. Around 20% of it, however, is sublime.
At release? before anyone else has found out.
And what if I see a game in a bargain bin somewhere, and I have no internet access. I should not have to check an online database to see if a game is going to break my PC before I purchase it. Also, some games had starforce and non-starforce releases in the same region, and you would have to check a serial number just to know which was which (like King Kong for example).
This only really works for popular games, you need to be very lucky to certain titles.
I think piracy is fueled much more by the "victimless crime" or "why shouldn't I download this thing I just found?" rather than rarity or financial concerns.
Although there certainly is a starving student demographic that pirates in its own way.
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You care about something the vast majority of consumers don't, and no it won't break your PC. And if it does you should probably fix your PC, as despite moral objections Starforce is a pretty reliable piece of software.
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That I agree with, and it's also my fundamental problem with the way that current IP law is implemented. At least in the UK, it's illegal to crack the copyright protection on a game you own, even to make backup copies. Format shifting? Companies still try to maintain that's illegal too. They try to have it both ways, you're purchasing the licence when it suits them, you're purchasing the disc at other times. I hate that kind of doublethink.
You're right, it is the principal more than anything.
I am directly funding the development of a game by choosing to give them money, and what do I get in return? I get software installed on my PC that can damage my PC's hardware, and will impact performance. The only purpose this software has is to stop me infringing copyright.
The thanks I get for choosing to pay for a game instead infringing it's copyright is being accused of being a pirate and having my computer held hostage.
No, I reject that, and I will circumvent it.
Bullcrap it is. Starforce takes over ring 0 access of drivers, this in itself is a very bad thing.
To give you an idea of just how bad a thing it is, windows Vista will not allow Starforce to run. I know, I tried. Even if you go through all the UAC stuff and try to install it, the moment that Starforce tries to run Vista will tell you that it refuses to allow this software root access to your drivers as that is inherently a bad thing. No ifs or buts, no option to click "accept", it's simply refused.
Which is just as well, I am very glad that Vista is programmed to not allow such software through. Because before on my XP machine? Yeah, I did get starforce installed on that, windows had no objections. From then on I was getting constant blue-screens every time I booted up, and the only thing that solved it was a reformat.
so circumvent it by not buying the game (by the way, you're a pussy and starforce is fine, just bringing that up again you fucking wuss) not by pirating it*
*
Generally, I don't see the point in game piracy. It doesn't do anything but hurt the developer's bottom line and, since I mostly like niche games, if I pirated games I'd actively harm my favorite genre. I pay full MSRP for games when I can afford to (once every few months, usually) and then I play them through.
However, I can see pirating a game to use it as, basically, a demo. Demos are a dying breed any more and when games are $50-$60 then the incentive to try before you buy is really powerful. I still don't agree wtih it (because the temptation to just not buy the game at that point is powerful) but I can understand that form.
They will not tell you. It does not ever say on the box.
Laws shouldn't be made that circumvent previously given rights, although that's more a legal issue than anything.