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[Avatar: the Last Airbender]: you DO always come back!

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Posts

  • WazzaWazza Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    I don't know. I am willing to give Shaymalan the benefit of the doubt. It seems far-fetched that he would go into this only wanting white people for the hero roles.

    I wouldn't call the casting director out for being intentionally racist, but I think Hollywood for the most part underestimates their audiences. I think folks would be willing to watch a film without a white protagonist, rather than have to do things like inject Michael Angarano into a Chinese myth.

    Wazza on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Wazza wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    I don't know. I am willing to give Shaymalan the benefit of the doubt. It seems far-fetched that he would go into this only wanting white people for the hero roles.

    I wouldn't call the casting director out for being intentionally racist, but I think Hollywood for the most part underestimates their audiences. I think folks would be willing to watch a film without a white protagonist, rather than have to do things like inject Michael Angarano into a Chinese myth.

    http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/538.htm

    HERBERT: Douglas, you're not going to stand there and tell us you don't like this story.
    PABST: Oh, I like it all right. It's good. It's very good. But you know I can't print it.
    BENNY: Why not?
    PABST: Oh, come on, Benny. Your hero's a Negro captain. The head of a space station, for Christ's sake.
    BENNY: What's wrong with that?
    PABST: People won't accept it. It's not believable.
    HERBERT: And men from Mars are?

    Schrodinger on
  • WazzaWazza Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Meh, it's part of why I like Neil Gaiman so much for standing to his guns for Anansi Boys and not changing the main characters to Caucasians, or dropping the magical elements altogether. Pshh, like white people have some sort of monopoly on magic.

    Wazza on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Also, I heard some people point out that Fire Nation is supposed to be a parable for Japan/China during WWII. But I'm not a war buff, so I can't verify.

    It's definitely reminiscent of Japan during WWII. It's also similar to China's idea of expansion where the government claims to be uplifting the minorities in Tibet and Xinjiang. At gun point if necessary.

    Quid on
  • OldSlackerOldSlacker Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Oh, FFS not this again.

    OldSlacker on
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think you guys are misunderstanding things.

    The Fire Nation is the good guys. They're basically Britain, expanding their Industrial Revolution into an empire to improve the state of the world. Ozai and friends are the heroes, while the Gaang are the Greenpeace terrorists trying to keep technology down.

    Terrendos on
  • agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Terrendos wrote: »
    I think you guys are misunderstanding things.

    The Fire Nation is the good guys. They're basically Britain, expanding their Industrial Revolution into an empire to improve the state of the world. Ozai and friends are the heroes, while the Gaang are the Greenpeace terrorists trying to keep technology down.

    Sozin Shrugged

    agoaj on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Terrendos wrote: »
    I think you guys are misunderstanding things.

    The Fire Nation is the good guys. They're basically Britain, expanding their Industrial Revolution into an empire to improve the state of the world. Ozai and friends are the heroes, while the Gaang are the Greenpeace terrorists trying to keep technology down.

    Seriously.

    This was made very clear in the play.

    Quid on
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Wazza wrote: »
    Meh, it's part of why I like Neil Gaiman so much for standing to his guns for Anansi Boys and not changing the main characters to Caucasians, or dropping the magical elements altogether. Pshh, like white people have some sort of monopoly on magic.

    Wait, they wanted to drop the magic out of Anansi Boys? What the fuck would it be about then?

    Kyougu on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Gaiman had offers to make a film out of his 2005 best seller Anansi Boys, about the sons of an African god discovering their magical background while living in the corrupt modern world, but moviemakers wanted to change the lead black characters to white or drop the magical elements altogether.

    Gaiman, listen, this is a brilliant idea. And we'd love to make it in to a movie if we could just not have the story or characters.

    Quid on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning LoserdomRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Terry Pratchett had a similar conversation with American filmmakers about Mort:
    A production company was put together and there was US and Scandinavian and European involvement, and I wrote a couple of script drafts which wet down well and everything was looking fine and then the US people said 'Hey, we've been doing market research in Power Cable, Nebraska, and other centres of culture, and the Death/skeleton bit doesn't work for us, it's a bit of a downer, we have a prarm with it, so lose the skeleton". The rest of the consortium said, did you read the script? The Americans said: sure, we LOVE it, it's GREAT, it's HIGH CONCEPT. Just lose the Death angle, guys. Whereupon, I'm happy to say, they were told to keep on with the medication and come back in a hundred years.
    Mort, the Movie, is looking like it won't happen now, despite months of development work. Without going into lots of detail, it's hit the familiar Hollywood iceberg (the one which would've set Good Omens in Indiana without the Four Horsemen). People suddenly grow an extra head and say things like "we have to make this relevant to the American teenager". And it's at times like this I get very glad that control has not been completely relinquished, because people are going to start suggesting really dumb things. There's still some UK involvement, but I really cannot see a purely UK movie made. Mort isn't fashionable UK movie material -- there's no parts in it for Hugh or Emma, it's not set it Sheffield, and no one shoves drugs up their bum...

    Shadowen on
  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Just to talk about the Avatar series,

    I actually liked the ending, especially the taking away of the Firebending. For me, Avatar always had a wuxia feel to it, and that kind of thing seems fairly common in wuxia.

    Rchanen on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    Your first source does not say what you claimed; it says "Caucasian or any other ethnicity."

    Your second source, however, is completely bizarre.

    I said they specifically asked for Caucasian actors. Which they did. The fact that they added "or any other ethnicity" comes across more as damage control than serious consideration.

    If this was truly open casting, then why not simply leave the word "Caucasian" out altogether, and simply specify "any ethnicity"?

    Maybe to specify that white people will be considered too? Anybody familiar with the show might consider white actors are off the table to begin with.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    I don't know. I am willing to give Shaymalan the benefit of the doubt. It seems far-fetched that he would go into this only wanting white people for the hero roles.

    Why? It's not like he has a strong history of casting minorities in his films. Especially Asian minorities.

    Pretty much all of his movies only cast white people in the hero roles. The only difference with Avatar is that it's the first movie he's directed that doesn't take place in America, which is why it stands out.

    Yes, he does descend from India. But again, that's what Fire Nation is for.

    And there's a difference between wanting only white people, and being strongly biased for them. MNS probably had a movie poster in his mind that he wanted to shoot with a bunch of white kids, and he posted the casting list accordingly. Then when he did his casting, he looked for the types of kids who could live up to that poster. White kids obviously did a better job, because they fit into the mold that he was already considering.

    So basically you have no actual evidence to back up your assertions, and are just making stuff up.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    And there's a difference between wanting only white people, and being strongly biased for them.
    I'd like to see a southern school try to use that excuse.

    Couscous on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm still trying to figure out where people get to say this guy:

    m-night-shyamalan-slick.jpg

    is a racist, and don't get laughed out of the thread. We're not dealing with Uncle Ruckus here. Is the casting peculiar? Sure. But "white supremacist" is not the first thing my mind jumps to.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm still trying to figure out where people get to say this guy:
    is a racist
    Brown people can't be racist or discriminatory. Got it.

    Couscous on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure out where people get to say this guy:
    is a racist
    Brown people can't be racist or discriminatory. Got it.
    Saying that this person is an Uncle Tom or whatever is a very strong allegation to make. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't throw around the word "racist" unless there's clear cause, and sorry, but casting white people for ambiguously Eskimo roles and a confusingly worded casting call are not "clear cause."

    I think people generally deserve the benefit of the doubt about whether or not they think dark-skinned people are inferior.

    Qingu on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    If this was truly open casting, then why not simply leave the word "Caucasian" out altogether, and simply specify "any ethnicity"?

    Maybe to specify that white people will be considered too?

    Because the phrase "any ethnicity" on it's own somehow wouldn't include white people? You have to specifically add the phrase "Caucasian" in order to clarify that "Caucasian" falls under "any"?

    I guess white actor are used to having the doors closed on them unless the casting list specifically asks for a white actor, right? I guess that any time race isn't specified, they assume that no whites need apply. Especially since there are so few opportunities for white actors in general.
    So basically you have no actual evidence to back up your assertions, and are just making stuff up.

    You're claiming that there's no evidence that most of the protagonists in MNS movies are white? Really?

    Schrodinger on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure out where people get to say this guy:
    is a racist
    Brown people can't be racist or discriminatory. Got it.

    Uh, typically when brown people are racist, they're not lifting up the white people.

    It's not outside the realm of possability, but y'know... Occam's Razor and all that.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2010
    \You're claiming that there's no evidence that most of the protagonists in MNS movies are white? Really?

    No, I'm claiming that you have no evidence for your "poster" theory, but use it to condemn him anyway.

    Your theory about him already having a poster in his head, and making his movie around the poster is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've read in this entire thread.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    And there's a difference between wanting only white people, and being strongly biased for them.
    I'd like to see a southern school try to use that excuse.

    Well, the only difference is that one is more intentional than the other. It's like the difference between murdering 20 people for money, and selling fake flu vaccine to senior citizens.
    Qingu wrote: »
    Saying that this person is an Uncle Tom or whatever is a very strong allegation to make. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't throw around the word "racist" unless there's clear cause, and sorry, but casting white people for ambiguously Eskimo roles and a confusingly worded casting call are not "clear cause."

    There's nothing ambiguous about it. They wanted white actors, they asked for white actors, and they ended up casting white actors.

    The last part alone is suspicious given the source material. But when you add that to what we saw in the casting notices, it really doesn't look good.

    Does MNS hate Asians? Probably not. But apparently he had a hard time imagining Asian people in heroic roles, or else he wouldn't have asked for Caucasians in the casting notice.

    Schrodinger on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure out where people get to say this guy:
    is a racist
    Brown people can't be racist or discriminatory. Got it.

    Uh, typically when brown people are racist, they're not lifting up the white people.

    It's not outside the realm of possability, but y'know... Occam's Razor and all that.

    People have cited articles in other threads about how minorities raised in white culture still tend to identify white people as superior, because all of their role models are white. i.e., black girls are more likely to assign positive attributes to white dolls as opposed to black dolls.

    People who build careers within the media industry have far more exposure to American media, and therefore, will be more susceptible to this sort of influence. The exception is when they make a conscious effort to challenge the status quo (i.e., Spike Lee.).
    Your theory about him already having a poster in his head, and making his movie around the poster is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've read in this entire thread.

    More stupid than the idea that "Caucasian" isn't included in the phrase "Any ethnicity"?

    How in the world is your theory more plausible than mine?

    For some reason, Caucasians and Caucasians alone were specified. No other race. The reason for this isn't found in the source material. My explanation is that MNS had a preconceived notion of what his characters looks like, and he wrote the casting notice accordingly. Your explanation is that he wanted to let white actors know that they would be welcome, and "any ethnicity" doesn't include white. Hmm...

    BTW, you realize that the movie poster was supposed to be a hypothetical example of a more general idea, right?

    Schrodinger on
  • SethTheHumanSethTheHuman Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I have no problem saying that that the methods and results of casting are discriminatory while not actually saying M. Night himself is a racist. More likely, some producer noticed that their big Harry Potter-killer consists entirely of Asian people and freaked out that mainstream America would reject anything less white than an Osmond. Or that "Adventures of the Heroic Tibetan Genocide Survivor Against the Evil Pseudo-Chinese Empires" would be a really tough sell in Asian markets. Likely both.

    So they tried to change the movie to make it more Disney Channel-esque, and M. Night blinked. I mean, what else is he going to do? He hasn't made a profitable movie since "Signs," and I'm guessing people aren't beating down the door for him to make another slow drama with a shocking twist!

    Not that this justifies what happened here. Changing Aang I could understand, but white-washing the entire cast? And when that didn't work out, they only made the evil empire brown? That's so insensitive as to be embarrassing for all involved.

    SethTheHuman on
    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I do not think it is fair to blame MNS for the casting of the Avatar movie. I'm pretty sure while directors have some control over casting, there are people whose ENTIRE JOB is to cast actors in roles in movies. And I'm not giving him a free pass because he's "brown." Maybe he spoke up about this and got shot down. Maybe he was fine with white-washing the heroes.... and if that's the case, shame on him.

    But really, the problem is more endemic as people have pointed out before: Hollywood, as a movie-making machine, is terribly racist. Sadly the execu-bots from that one episode of Futarama isn't far from the truth: producers, directors, writers, casting directors, etc. are either too scared to take any risks, they are racist themselves, or (most likely) the vastly overestimate the racism of American audiences.

    Curly_Brace on
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    On another note:

    I wanted to see the Fire Nation colonies :( We heard about them but never saw them. It has been 100 years since the Fire Nation first went on the offense, and they planted their little colonies, I want to know how that turned out. Doubtless there were marriages between Fire Nation nationals and Earth kingdom nationals; Ty Lee is Fire Nation and doesn't resemble Zuko or Azula who looks typically Fire Nation but she was never called out on the fact. Sokka and Katara pose as Fire Nation and no one suspects them of lying based on their appearance. They might assume "Oh, colonists." Interesting to note, when Aang is thought to be from the colonies, he is generally treated quite well.

    I would have liked to see some Earthbender Fire Nation colonists, fighting for the Fire Nation army . . .

    Muse Among Men on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm surprised that they never delved into the future of the Air Nomads.

    I guess Aang and Katara are supposed to have a lot of babies. I mean, a lot of babies.

    Schrodinger on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning LoserdomRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think that, despite fan theories*, the creators have actually said, "The show is called The Last Airbender".

    *
    One of those theories being that Aang could not only take bending away by bending energy, but give it to people who don't have it, and that way jumpstart the Air Nomads.

    Shadowen on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Quid on
  • KilroyKilroy timaeusTestified Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    On another note:

    I wanted to see the Fire Nation colonies :( We heard about them but never saw them. It has been 100 years since the Fire Nation first went on the offense, and they planted their little colonies, I want to know how that turned out. Doubtless there were marriages between Fire Nation nationals and Earth kingdom nationals; Ty Lee is Fire Nation and doesn't resemble Zuko or Azula who looks typically Fire Nation but she was never called out on the fact. Sokka and Katara pose as Fire Nation and no one suspects them of lying based on their appearance. They might assume "Oh, colonists." Interesting to note, when Aang is thought to be from the colonies, he is generally treated quite well.

    I would have liked to see some Earthbender Fire Nation colonists, fighting for the Fire Nation army . . .

    I think the village with the Fire Festival in Season 1 (in the episode with Jeong Jeong) and the town that Zuko and Iroh are in at the beginning of Season 2 are Fire Nation occupied areas in the Earth Kingdom. I guess the village that Jet tried to destroy as well.

    Kilroy on
  • WazzaWazza Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Kilroy wrote: »
    I think the village with the Fire Festival in Season 1 (in the episode with Jeong Jeong) and the town that Zuko and Iroh are in at the beginning of Season 2 are Fire Nation occupied areas in the Earth Kingdom. I guess the village that Jet tried to destroy as well.

    I think the town Jet was willing to destroy was Earth Kingdom, just occupied by the Fire Nation.

    On the topic of casting, I wouldn't hold MNS directly responsible either. DeeDee Ricketts was the casting director responsible for those stupid casting calls, and told her interviewers that MNS "didn't know what he wanted until he saw it", putting her basically at the head of all this idiocy.

    Wazza on
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Really, has it been established that there is a genetic component to how you bend?

    Spoit on
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  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Spoit wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Really, has it been established that there is a genetic component to how you bend?

    People did learn originally from Dragons, Badgermoles, Sky Bison and the Moon so...

    Z0re on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Spoit wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Really, has it been established that there is a genetic component to how you bend?

    It's been a pretty mixed bag. It comes off as a combination of both genetics and spirituality.

    Quid on
  • JintorJintor Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Yeah, that was always my hope. The mechanist's colony kids might rediscover airbending or something.

    Jintor on
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Jintor wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    I just figured they'd slowly repopulate. Aang doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of kids. Really, he technically only needs to have one.

    I also always sort of hoped some kids now living in the abandoned air temple might pick it up.

    Yeah, that was always my hope. The mechanist's colony kids might rediscover airbending or something.

    I was always happy to accept the title of the show at face value, that Aang is the last airbender, and that possibly the age of the Avatar itself is over. The Deus Ex Mach... er... lion turtle, talked about there having been a time before the Avatar, it's not unreasonable to presume there might be one after it. Or maybe the age afterwards is a confluence, where people aren't restricted by nation but can learn any of the arts.

    EDIT: Still, that's all pointless speculation at this stage. The show's over, it ended quite well, and I'm hoping they don't try to force out a sequel series to try and continue on from it.

    subedii on
  • Sharp101Sharp101 TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Does MNS hate Asians? Probably not. But apparently he had a hard time imagining Asian people in heroic roles, or else he wouldn't have asked for Caucasians in the casting notice.

    I think someone has selective hearing/reading.

    From the interview:
    There was, at one time, a Chinese Sokka and Katara, and they were over here. One of them was a better actor than the other, and so I was gathering my pros and cons.

    As for the casting notice mentioning Caucasian actors, doesn't the standard casting notice 'template' almost always mention some sort of ethnicity?


    I thought posting that interview would make people feel better about the whole thing, not make people become stupid again. I thought he defended himself quite well.

    Sharp101 on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    There was, at one time, a Chinese Sokka and Katara, and they were over here. One of them was a better actor than the other, and so I was gathering my pros and cons.

    All ethnicity were considered. Based on the casting notices and on the final result, it appears that some were considered more than others.

    Again, your problem is that you're trying to see racial bias as an absolute deal, rather than a matter of degrees. It the same reason why the "some of my best friends are black" defense never flies.
    As for the casting notice mentioning Caucasian actors, doesn't the standard casting notice 'template' almost always mention some sort of ethnicity?

    Only if ethnicity is important, and usually only if you're trying to attract minorities actors who might not otherwise show up. You don't usually need to specify Caucasians will be considered, because Caucasian actors are a given. Unless, of course, you want minorities to know that they shouldn't bother applying. It's the whole "Why is there no such thing as white history month?" or "Why is there no men's history?" debate. Answer: Because those things are already implied.

    Edit: A google search for the phrase "Caucasian or any other ethnicity" yields 18,600 results. A google for the phrase "Caucasian or any other ethnicity" -airbender -aang yields 151 results. So it would appear that this phrasing isn't very common.
    I thought posting that interview would make people feel better about the whole thing, not make people become stupid again.

    What he said in the interviews contradicts what we saw in the casting notice.

    Schrodinger on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Wazza wrote: »
    On the topic of casting, I wouldn't hold MNS directly responsible either. DeeDee Ricketts was the casting director responsible for those stupid casting calls, and told her interviewers that MNS "didn't know what he wanted until he saw it", putting her basically at the head of all this idiocy.

    My main problem with MNS is the way he's trying to dismiss the entire issue. "Oh, were those characters supposed to be Asian? I had no idea. You see, I don't see race. People tell me I'm Indian, and I take their word for it, because they have such a hard time pronouncing my last name."

    Maybe MNS didn't personally audition each and every actor who came through the door, but am I really supposed to believe that they didn't have him look over the casting sheets for approval?

    Schrodinger on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    He correctly pointed out that race in the show is ambiguous, and secondary. And he treated it that way, saying he casted people based first on their acting ability and chemistry and then established the world's ethnicity from there.

    You can say he had the wrong set of priorities—that Avatar should have been an opportunity to showcase non-Western actors. However, I simply don't think it's fair to ascribe nefarious motives to him. I see no reason to doubt his explanation or dismiss it as a cover up; in fact it sounds exactly like the kind of thing an oblivious hack director would say to begin with.

    Qingu on
This discussion has been closed.