It has been said before in AC, but the biggest thing you get from school is the impetus to focus. I know I wouldn't have gotten over my apprehension about using Linux if I didn't spend a year running it in school where I majored in Linux administration.
I could have done it on my own, but I'm rarely that motivated. Some people are, and those people might not get as much out of a degree.
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
Pious on
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
Yea, I thought thats what would happen.
Or you could just keep them! Make it 21+, serve rum in your coffee, and revel in your dickwalls.
Edit: Damn! This TOTP could have been so epic if I had just written, with no quotes, 'Revel in your dickwalls!'
Rather, I find myself at least partially ruffled because the "opposing side" to mine (No degrees ftw!)seems to think that schools that give degrees are somehow inferior. Which is, to be frank, rebellious bullshit. It'd be like saying the Surgeon General warnings on tobacco are wrong because the government always lies to us. For no reason.
If we're talking theoretical, yes, a degree granting college can be as good or better than a non-accredited atelier in skill building.
If we're talking practically, this rarely happens, for the following reasons:
1) Lack of focus
Being accredited means spending money on teaching things that aren't art. Students have to spend their time and energy on things that are not art and do not relate to art. For all the merits of getting some broader exposure, it still means you're likely to lose a year's worth of time and energy to things that aren't art in your 4 degree program.
A lot of people promote the "college experience". That's great. But it has nothing to do with whether you actually learn anything or not.
2) Quality of teachers
Being accredited means hiring people with master's degrees rather than professionals.
People with masters degrees are not necessarily professionals, can compete as a professional, or have the skill of a professional. It means they have a master's degree. Some people with master's degrees are professionals, and that's great. More often they are people that either only ever wanted to teach and not compete professionally, meaning they have no exposure to what skills are required in a professional capacity except by hearsay, or they couldn't actually hack it as a professional after they got their bachelor's degree, and went in for teaching as a last resort.
Professionals generally just go and work in their field. They don't have any use for a master's degree because they're actually good at what they do.
Ateliers allow these people to teach. Colleges do not. Result: Ateliers have a much wider range of qualified artists to choose from when picking teachers.
See also: Sheridan's animation program. From what I've heard, them switching from a 3-year certificate program (then at the time known as one of the best in NA) to a 4-year degree necessitated the firing of most of the non-master's degree holding teachers (ie: the guys who worked professionally and knew what they were doing), and replacing them with master's degree holding professors. Unfortunately, since pretty much no college has a masters of animation program, nobody really has a master's degree in animation. Therefore, the professors they got were people holding master's degrees in different fields, and were wholly unqualified to teach animation. Result: Sheridan's animation program reputation has gone downhill in recent years.
3) Money
Lots of people want to be artists
Few people knows what it takes to make it as an artist
Few people will make it as an artist
Teachers that are qualified to teach people to the level of a professional are rare
Teachers that are qualified at that level are expensive, considering the wage has to be competitive with private industry
Art doesn't pay all that well for most of the people that actually do make it
Art students, unlike business school or medical school or law programs, are unlikely to contribute back money to the college as alumni
The longer students stay in school, the more money the colleges make
Result:
Colleges exploit art students for their money.
The money lost by not having alumni that are qualified to work professionally is less than the money saved by not hiring top-tier teachers.
Colleges save additional money by forcing art students into large lecture classes, or classes that are not art-based. These are more cost-effective to run than studio classes- more students, fewer teachers, less specialization.
Colleges heavily promote the necessity of a degree while at the same time shying away from hard truthful critiques or bad grades- an art student that fails out, quits, or transfers to another school is a lost chance at easy revenue. Exposing students to professional standards expected in the real world are avoided.
Now, these things CAN be avoided and a good degree program CAN be done. I've heard a lot of good things about Art Center's Industrial Design program, and CalArts' Character Animation program is little less than legendary in the field. Hell, if I had $130k burning a hole in my pocket I'd be applying to that program right now. But these are the exception, and not the rule. More usually there's a smattering of decent teachers amongst a sea of well-meaning but clueless profs and cold-hearted administrators.
Though to be honest, I can't say that every atelier is a homerun either, some may be just as greedy or unqualified in their education as any college. But a place founded by professionals with the explicit purpose of teaching people to a professional level without the distractions that come with the territory when it comes to accredited institutions is, I would venture, more likely to result in a place that's good for learning than most of the colleges I've heard of.
For courtesy, I've spoiler'd my response.
Basically your argument is against the administration and their motives. I can't really prove to you that it's not true. Especially since in many ways it is. Though, you pay to go to Atelier, too, I'm sure, and they need funding to reamain what they are. I can't see the administration of the school, or even the professors, not wanting to expand the program and earning more profit. Otherwise they'd be a "non-profit" organization. So, I can't see how that just wouldn't be true almost anywhere.
Though, you're right, most college administrations have no clue what-fuck's going on, so I'll concede to you on that point.
As for what's taught, you may be right at some colleges, though the amount of money you're talking is about the amount of money I'm loaning to go where I am (being out of state. The school's state funded so it's much cheaper to go if I grew up here). That being said, all of our gen ed. courses are taught in relation to our art. We only need to take one science or math, and the science is like... go to the ocean and draw crabs and shit. And we only need to two writing classes, the sci or math, and then a geography or history. I've already taken half of those, and the rest is art and art history.
In terms of failing students, they seem quite eager to kick people out of majors because the majors are too big. They don't have space for us all. I had a friend that they kicked out of illustration last year after review boards, where they look at all of your work, and you need to be doing things on your own outside of classes. If you don't measure up to where they think you should be, you get kicked out. And they bring in an alumni who was in your major currently working professionally to help judge you.
And as for teachers not being good and needing masters, MassArt's teachers DON'T need to have their masters. Only their bachelors. What they are required to have is consistent gallery showings and work out in their field. So, you know, we are being taught by professionals. Take for example my current media techniques professor: Lisa French. If you go to the first little box up in the top right hand corner and click on "clients", there's a nice long scrolling list. (Including the national football league, nabisco, disneyland, zoobooks, time magazine. I don't mean individual clients.)
And, yes, some teachers aren't as strong, because no one can amass all of the professional talent in the world, but you have to make a small concession somewhere. Watts Atelier's teachers are all alumni of that school. Maybe you guys aren't exposed to as many different ways of maintaining a career? That would be conjecture, and I mean nothing by it. But I could speculate about your school much as you seem to readily speculate about everyone else's.
Like Cake, you don't seem to know enough about it to really make these claims. Some schools, especially the Art Institutes, generally aren't strong places to learn. But again, sensationalist claims on institutionalized schools aren't really ever going to get you very far.
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
*Watching Jet Li Fist of Legend* OMG EPIC AWESOME!!
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
Yea, I thought thats what would happen.
Just like a job at the nursing home.
I'm expecting a call about a maintenance position at a nursing home. You just gave me something to look forward to.
Man, not 10 feet away from my desk a co-worker collapsed face first on the floor. She landed with a dense thud, people screamed, paramedics came and took her away. I was SO into my work that I didn't even hear any of the comotion.
charis if you ever go to watts you cant take your boyfriend, just tie him up or something to a pole so he doesn't wander off and then attend, he'll be fine he can photosynthesize as long as you tie him up out in the sun
just kidddddinggg, maybe
Loomdun on
splat
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NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
Man, not 10 feet away from my desk a co-worker collapsed face first on the floor. She landed with a dense thud, people screamed, paramedics came and took her away. I was SO into my work that I didn't even hear any of the comotion.
Wow, I'm really in my own world today.
I fainted once when i was in middle school, Some cute girl wanted me to turn my face red, I did that by cutting off circulation to my brain... I fell down face forward. I almost lost my two front teeth. When I fell forward and hit concrete, my two front teeth cut through my bottom lip. Had to get stitches and eat oatmeal and soup for a few weeks. My lip swelled up like Blues from Forest Gump.
So I'm coming up on the finish line for a set of 700+ storyboards and I can say with confidence that it was a mind-numbingly boring experience that I was massively underpaid for. I'll not be taking another job like that unless it generates me a lot of cash. Good experience, good for resume etc etc... but christ it's tedious.
if someone wants to interview you and you dont know what job you applied for (and cant tell because it isnt listed and you applied through craigslist) is it okay to ask, and how should i phrase it to make myself not sound like an idiot
i asking you guys because i trust you more than h/a
Before doing that, scour your emails for any evidence.
I wouldn't ask, though. It sounds like you're just pouring out mass emails in hopes of snagging something. Even if that's what you did.
just as a follow up -- i figured out which position it was! and i have a second phone interview tomorrow. hooray for her mentioning things that were unique to that position.
if someone wants to interview you and you dont know what job you applied for (and cant tell because it isnt listed and you applied through craigslist) is it okay to ask, and how should i phrase it to make myself not sound like an idiot
i asking you guys because i trust you more than h/a
Before doing that, scour your emails for any evidence.
I wouldn't ask, though. It sounds like you're just pouring out mass emails in hopes of snagging something. Even if that's what you did.
just as a follow up -- i figured out which position it was! and i have a second phone interview tomorrow. hooray for her mentioning things that were unique to that position.
Man.. Am I just dumb? I don't understand todays comic either! Why is Gabe being taken away from Tycho? What does he mean "my town?" Was he hanging out with Tycho outside of his home town? What's with the whole "my town" business? Why is he crying? Does he miss Tycho or is it something else? What's with the frog? Is that Slippy or something?.. Or some other frog?.. What the hell is that thing tied up?
You obviously haven't played Animal Crossing at all.
bombardier on
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Animal crossing is the most realistic real-life simulator I've ever seen: The minute you leave home you're exploited by everyone around you and somehow that just leaves you deeper in debt.
I just read one of the articles about the Yale student killing.
Their main (as of right now) suspect went to my fucking high school while I was attending. I saw that kid in the hallways! I know people who are FRIENDS with him. I know who he is. Holy, holy shit.
Posts
let's go and be higher educated over there.
Where the cool kids are.
I could have done it on my own, but I'm rarely that motivated. Some people are, and those people might not get as much out of a degree.
Well hello Tynic, Ph.D., how are you this fine morn (afternoon)?
Love, ClawlerBear, Ph.D.
I am doing pretty good, Dr Bear. My chair was sinking, but I made it stop. Now I have to look at films of bees for a few hours.
I hope your doctor-y life is also going pretty doctor-y well,
love,
Dr Tynic.
I had a dream about fighting my ex step dad, I broke both his arms, then he put them back together, and kept fighting me.
*half baked idea*
Anyhoo, I should make my own damn art school. Make it like a caffee for artist and teach each others how to draw. We can draw on the walls and stuff.Sell art books and supplies..be my own dojo....*smokes pipe*...yea....great idea..I'm hungry...My art sucks to make this even plausible.
but an artsy coffee shop where the patrons are encouraged to draw on the walls?
that's not too bad of an idea for a business.
'course, you gotta spend a lot of time washing off dicks.
Yea, I thought thats what would happen.
Or you could just keep them! Make it 21+, serve rum in your coffee, and revel in your dickwalls.
Edit: Damn! This TOTP could have been so epic if I had just written, with no quotes, 'Revel in your dickwalls!'
For courtesy, I've spoiler'd my response.
Though, you're right, most college administrations have no clue what-fuck's going on, so I'll concede to you on that point.
As for what's taught, you may be right at some colleges, though the amount of money you're talking is about the amount of money I'm loaning to go where I am (being out of state. The school's state funded so it's much cheaper to go if I grew up here). That being said, all of our gen ed. courses are taught in relation to our art. We only need to take one science or math, and the science is like... go to the ocean and draw crabs and shit. And we only need to two writing classes, the sci or math, and then a geography or history. I've already taken half of those, and the rest is art and art history.
In terms of failing students, they seem quite eager to kick people out of majors because the majors are too big. They don't have space for us all. I had a friend that they kicked out of illustration last year after review boards, where they look at all of your work, and you need to be doing things on your own outside of classes. If you don't measure up to where they think you should be, you get kicked out. And they bring in an alumni who was in your major currently working professionally to help judge you.
And as for teachers not being good and needing masters, MassArt's teachers DON'T need to have their masters. Only their bachelors. What they are required to have is consistent gallery showings and work out in their field. So, you know, we are being taught by professionals. Take for example my current media techniques professor: Lisa French. If you go to the first little box up in the top right hand corner and click on "clients", there's a nice long scrolling list. (Including the national football league, nabisco, disneyland, zoobooks, time magazine. I don't mean individual clients.)
And, yes, some teachers aren't as strong, because no one can amass all of the professional talent in the world, but you have to make a small concession somewhere. Watts Atelier's teachers are all alumni of that school. Maybe you guys aren't exposed to as many different ways of maintaining a career? That would be conjecture, and I mean nothing by it. But I could speculate about your school much as you seem to readily speculate about everyone else's.
Like Cake, you don't seem to know enough about it to really make these claims. Some schools, especially the Art Institutes, generally aren't strong places to learn. But again, sensationalist claims on institutionalized schools aren't really ever going to get you very far.
Except I'm not flipping a shit. >_>
I wouldn't know, because I don't read fucking walls of text going into excruciating detail about boring, inane shit.
Just like a job at the nursing home.
I'm expecting a call about a maintenance position at a nursing home. You just gave me something to look forward to.
I lived with this dog. He is another year older.
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... mute.
Fist of Legend. One of the best Jet Li movies in existence. Top 3 or sure.
INSTAGRAM
Such a good movie, that final fight scene is awesome. I think it's like 9 to 11 minutes long, and all awesome.
My Portfolio Site
Wow, I'm really in my own world today.
just kidddddinggg, maybe
I fainted once when i was in middle school, Some cute girl wanted me to turn my face red, I did that by cutting off circulation to my brain... I fell down face forward. I almost lost my two front teeth. When I fell forward and hit concrete, my two front teeth cut through my bottom lip. Had to get stitches and eat oatmeal and soup for a few weeks. My lip swelled up like Blues from Forest Gump.
just as a follow up -- i figured out which position it was! and i have a second phone interview tomorrow. hooray for her mentioning things that were unique to that position.
What kinda job is it?
Good lord...
I just read one of the articles about the Yale student killing.
Their main (as of right now) suspect went to my fucking high school while I was attending. I saw that kid in the hallways! I know people who are FRIENDS with him. I know who he is. Holy, holy shit.
the killer to clarify totp
FOR WHAT.
Geez. talk about a fucking tease.