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Whee, got fired.
ElJeffe
Registered User, ClubPA regular
Registered User, ClubPA regular
So, here's a bit of the timeline:
A few weeks ago, my boss told me I was spending too much time online while I was at work. He said it was affecting my work. My time online was actually incidental; what was affecting my work was the fact that due to some medical issues, I was unable to focus on anything for longer than an hour at a time without my brain trying to eat itself; I would surf the web or send email because it was the only thing my mush-like brain could accomodate. Regardless, I was spending too much time online doing personal stuff, I got an Official Reprimand for it. At the time, I just took it and nodded and smiled, and did not bring up my medical issues.
In amended my online habits to be in line with a computer use policy he had me write that specified that personal online use was to be limited to breaks and lunch. (The policy was never actually made official, if that's relevant - I wrote it, handed it to him, and that was that.)
The next several weeks were spent with him making subtle comments to the effect that if I didn't immediately become awesome on a stick, I would be fired. I tried my level best to become awesome on a stick, and largely succeeded, including memorizing most of a 1000 page technical manual in a couple days and then training some clients on it. He did awesome things like specifically asking me to work overtime, then after the fact email-yelling at me because I didn't get express written consent before I worked overtime. (And we're talking like a couple hours overtime total. This was on the heels of him reprimanding me a week prior because I tried to leave mid-day when coming in on a Saturday, so I was a little wary of looking anything less than enthusiastic about staying as late as necessary to finish the job, and I told him as much in my emailed response.)
Friday afternoon, I went to the doctor about the aforementioned longstanding medical issue. She told me I pretty much needed to take at least six weeks' disability leave immediately and get some rest, or face some serious long-term harm to my health. My boss was out of town, so I got all of my projects into shape to hand off, wrote an apologetic email to my boss (cc'ing the receptionist and my personal account) stating the situation, and that I would be taking leave effective Monday; I also left the letter from my doctor. I also told him I could be reached via phone or email to answer any questions in helping them get a handle on things in my absence.
Today I received a letter dated Friday and mailed Saturday saying I was being fired for continuing to abuse personal use of the internet.
Now, I didn't exactly log my minutes spent online. According to the policy I wrote that was never official-ized, it was okay to visit websites during your lunch and during ten minute breaks in morning and afternoon. I tried to adhere to that, but it's possible I may have been online for eleven minutes instead of ten, or something. If he was monitoring traffic or using spyware and I slipped up, he may have evidence of this.
I did at one point, after the too-much-online-time reprimand, try to explain my health issues to my boss to a point. I told him that I'd been suffering from serious sleep deprivation for the better part of a year, that it was starting to affect my ability to focus on my job, and that I had started taking Ambien which was at least giving me enough sleep to not feeling like I was losing my fucking marbles. He derisively told me that if I needed "nap time" we could arrange that, but I needed to be awake and aware for eight hours per day. Which is defensible to a point, but it also communicated that he didn't take my health problems seriously at all, and made me wish I hadn't bothered telling him. (Oh, and then afterward, via email, he accused me of sleeping while at work, which is just a big fucking lie.)
Now, I don't want to go back there. My boss is an ass and the job was starting to suck, even aside from the part where it was literally killing me. But I don't want to have to explain to future prospective employers that I was sacked for being a goof-off. I would be content to spend my time on disability leave looking for a new job.
What can I do?
edit: I should probably point out that I live in California.
A few weeks ago, my boss told me I was spending too much time online while I was at work. He said it was affecting my work. My time online was actually incidental; what was affecting my work was the fact that due to some medical issues, I was unable to focus on anything for longer than an hour at a time without my brain trying to eat itself; I would surf the web or send email because it was the only thing my mush-like brain could accomodate. Regardless, I was spending too much time online doing personal stuff, I got an Official Reprimand for it. At the time, I just took it and nodded and smiled, and did not bring up my medical issues.
In amended my online habits to be in line with a computer use policy he had me write that specified that personal online use was to be limited to breaks and lunch. (The policy was never actually made official, if that's relevant - I wrote it, handed it to him, and that was that.)
The next several weeks were spent with him making subtle comments to the effect that if I didn't immediately become awesome on a stick, I would be fired. I tried my level best to become awesome on a stick, and largely succeeded, including memorizing most of a 1000 page technical manual in a couple days and then training some clients on it. He did awesome things like specifically asking me to work overtime, then after the fact email-yelling at me because I didn't get express written consent before I worked overtime. (And we're talking like a couple hours overtime total. This was on the heels of him reprimanding me a week prior because I tried to leave mid-day when coming in on a Saturday, so I was a little wary of looking anything less than enthusiastic about staying as late as necessary to finish the job, and I told him as much in my emailed response.)
Friday afternoon, I went to the doctor about the aforementioned longstanding medical issue. She told me I pretty much needed to take at least six weeks' disability leave immediately and get some rest, or face some serious long-term harm to my health. My boss was out of town, so I got all of my projects into shape to hand off, wrote an apologetic email to my boss (cc'ing the receptionist and my personal account) stating the situation, and that I would be taking leave effective Monday; I also left the letter from my doctor. I also told him I could be reached via phone or email to answer any questions in helping them get a handle on things in my absence.
Today I received a letter dated Friday and mailed Saturday saying I was being fired for continuing to abuse personal use of the internet.
Now, I didn't exactly log my minutes spent online. According to the policy I wrote that was never official-ized, it was okay to visit websites during your lunch and during ten minute breaks in morning and afternoon. I tried to adhere to that, but it's possible I may have been online for eleven minutes instead of ten, or something. If he was monitoring traffic or using spyware and I slipped up, he may have evidence of this.
I did at one point, after the too-much-online-time reprimand, try to explain my health issues to my boss to a point. I told him that I'd been suffering from serious sleep deprivation for the better part of a year, that it was starting to affect my ability to focus on my job, and that I had started taking Ambien which was at least giving me enough sleep to not feeling like I was losing my fucking marbles. He derisively told me that if I needed "nap time" we could arrange that, but I needed to be awake and aware for eight hours per day. Which is defensible to a point, but it also communicated that he didn't take my health problems seriously at all, and made me wish I hadn't bothered telling him. (Oh, and then afterward, via email, he accused me of sleeping while at work, which is just a big fucking lie.)
Now, I don't want to go back there. My boss is an ass and the job was starting to suck, even aside from the part where it was literally killing me. But I don't want to have to explain to future prospective employers that I was sacked for being a goof-off. I would be content to spend my time on disability leave looking for a new job.
What can I do?
edit: I should probably point out that I live in California.
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ElJeffe on
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Don't worry about other employers discovering that you were fired for cause. Shit, I don't even think that most places even call to confirm that you were actually an employee at previous jobs.
Just say that your job was interfering with the resolution of some medical issues, so you had to quit to take care of them.
Is it worth talking to a lawyer? Or is California not a great place to be fired in? If someone did this to you in the UK then you'd have a pretty sweet unfair dismissal/disability discrimination case going
However, nothing is stopping them from ambiguously asking and possibly getting an answer. Someone I know has been called to ask about a potential employee and the company wanted to know if they were fired and consequently asked a bunch of sneaky questions.
Pretty much this.
In the long term, I'm wondering how to address this in terms of resumes and interviews and the like. I'd prefer not lying, but "I tried to go on medical leave and they fired me the next day!" sounds potentially like more than most employers would want to deal with. Given the choice between two candidates, one of whom was definitely not fired for goofing, off, I know who I'd pick.
Then again, if I say I quit and my old employer tells them I was fired, that's a deal breaker right there.
I left it on for the job I got immediately after though (a badass paid internship, very competitive) and I told them flat out I left due to being pressured to work while very ill. I quit though so it was a little different. For reason why you left put down illness. Depending on the job you might be perfectly comfortable saying you were suspiciously fired upon needing to take disability leave.
A tough situation to be sure. About the best you can do is not bring it up with new potential employers and if directly asked have a good statement prepared. Something like, "There was a breakdown in communication between myself and my boss, and the the poor economy only greased the wheels." Unfortunately there really isn't any way to spin it to make yourself look good, because if you insist your boss was some kind of ogre, you look bad. Or if you go the opposite route and say it was all your fault, you look even worse.
About all you can do is just not bring it up and sell yourself well enough so that anyone who you interview with won't feel the need to wonder why you quit your last job, only that why was the last boss such a fool to let this guy go? Plus, the economy is so terrible right now, I imagine most potential employers are going to assume you were laid off anyway.
IANAL, but this is the case in CA. If they say anything else and it gets out, it's defamation of character. I don't even think they're allowed to comment if they would hire you again. I think that they're only allowed to confirm that you worked there.
Jeffe, do you have an employee handbook? Try looking up what your former company's FMLA policy is. Most places allow a certain amount of time off in which they will hold your job. Usually, it's about 12 weeks, but it could be less or more based on policy. If the company violated their own policy in order to fire you as soon as you declared you need to go on disability with a doctor's confirmation (and it does need a doctor's confirmation in the State of California, so hit up the CA Labor Department's website now and fill out the necessary forms to get your disability payments since it can take a while and a doctor needs to fill out one of the pages; this is assuming that you haven't done it yet), then that is a violation of the FMLA.
California is an at-will state where they can fire you for nothing at all, but there are certain things that employers specifically cannot fire you for. The circumstances you describe sound very suspicious, like they were trying to find a reason to not hold your job while on disability.
Again, IANAL, and this is something that you definitely should speak to an employment lawyer about. Tell them everything, including the reprimand in order to be sure that they have the full picture with no surprises, and they'll tell you if you have a legitimate case.
So yeah. My resume ain't looking so hot right now.
Hey, anyone here wanna hire a project manager? Will work for food.
Is that going to be necessarily the case in this economy, though? My friend the Radio Shack manager has guys with multiple degrees flooding his inbox for part-time work. I just think that in three or five years any HR dude who has put any time at all into that job will look at your resume, see "2008, this happened, 2009 this other thing happened" on it and won't be fazed a bit.
EDIT: that said, my condolences, man, but also good luck with the medical thing, because I know what kind of nightmare that stuff can be
Oh, this is absolutely the case. I know for a fucking fact that I was let go because they didn't want to hold my job. I mean, that's not a question. It's just a matter of proving that. My main concern is that I was given a warning for excessive time spent online several weeks prior to being fired, and if my boss bothered installing spyware, then it may prove that I went online for personal use since then at all, even though it shouldn't have been in excess of what was allowed under the company policy that I, myself, wrote.
Basically, I'm worried that might make my case less than iron-clad, even though the timing of my termination was pretty damned obviously suspicious.
Well, again, that's why you need to talk to a lawyer and let them tell you whether it's a problem or not. Any employment lawyer worth their salt will tell you what kind of a case you've got, if any. Despite the view of lawyers jumping on every single little case, most of them don't do that because they've usually got a number of clients at the same time and don't want to waste time with a case that's not going to go anywhere. Plus, they'll know the ins and out of the laws and the court system itself and be able to give you a much more informed answer than anyone in here can probably give you.
My non-professional legal opinion is that you have a case. But again, IANAL, so you really need to talk to a lawyer and get a real legal opinion.
I've been dealing with disability issues for a few years now, I can definitely commiserate with your experience. From what you've written it sounds like he may have paved the way to let you go while covering his own ass legally. Check into your options, get whatever legal advice you can, but also be prepared to tough it out without work. Hopefully your disability isn't a permanent one. My problem is permanent and it's starting to look like it's degenerative (back and hip problems). The biggest piece of advice I can give you is take advantage of any kind of medical insurance you have right now. Go to the doctor as much as they'll see you and get your problem documented as thoroughly as possible. You'll need as much evidence of that as you can get. I was uninsured and my family finances were already crushed under some medical issues that came about through my wife's pregnancy, so documentation of my problems is poor and sporadic, since I prioritized her health before mine. This is causing me major problems trying to collect Social Security for my disability, and even causing me problems finding legal representation. I'd like to see you avoid these problems, they can be very rough on you and your family.
Good luck Jeffe.
Don't file anything with regards to unemployment until you do so.
Rarely are lawsuits a sure thing, but since a fair number of attorneys will help you prosecute if you actually do have a sound case (they get paid from the % of the "award" money anyway, at least in the majority of cases like this, although you might have to pay some fees up front). Furthermore, plenty of cases don't even make it to court because businesses would rather settle out of court than actually change policies or face punitive damages or other lawsuits.
Don't think about whether you could potentially have said something or if your boss might technically have an out -- talk to an attorney about it while it's still fresh. Heck, the state or municipality might even have a hotline for people who feel they have been wrongly terminated. In this case, you were fired immediately after a doctor's note gave you 6 weeks disability, which (I believe) your employer is required to uphold without firing you -- they pay into a disability fund for this very purpose, after all. There's plenty of reading on www.dol.gov if you want to be really bored tomorrow, but you'd probably get to the meat of it faster if you spent tomorrow calling up a couple lawyers who specialized in employment law. Most of them LOVE filing lawsuits against employers trying to screw employees out of disability.
edit: due to the timing of the doctor's note, and the time of the firing, you may very well fall under the FMLA: http://www.dol.gov/compliance/laws/comp-fmla.htm . Note, no disability is "rated" based on permanence or seriousness. If it qualifies according to your doctor, then that's all it takes. It could be a broken arm, a serious illness (like pig flu), all the way up to loss of limb. For chronic cases you're typically up for review (unless it's obvious like loss of limb) depending on whatever stuff you fall under, but yeah, call a lawyer. You've got the free time now, nothing to do tomorrow, and even if you don't think they really fucked you over, they could fuck over the next person who gets sick on the job.
As for your next employer looking at your last one here is a suggestion. Use a very friendly coworker who is in a supervisory position as a reference.
Yeah, unfortunately it was a tiny company, and I was pretty much second in command. So I don't have any friendly coworkers in supervisory positions.
I do have great references from my past jobs, though.
Lawyers specializing in family law and wrongful termination are full of more sleazeballs than any other branch of law. Check your ass when you are looking for one.
My first thought was FMLA too. Because you have documentation and this is a medical case, i'd say you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding a lawyer. Generally they should work on a contingency fee basis...probably 30% of the award.
If your damage possibility is valued too low, you may then have trouble finding a lawyer. TYhe DFEH has a n administrative process which can get you some relief under the CA equivalent to FMLA, but the DFEH is generally pretty crappy so i'd try your best to get a good lawyer first.
Have a friend call your old HR department saying he's performing a background check for Company X.= in regards to former employee ElJeffe. Try and get them to say horrible shit. Chances are if this is a 50+ employee unit, HR will stick to start date / end date / Job title.
Use professional references not from that job and you sir, are golden.
"I needed to take some medical leave and my employer was unwilling to work with me on it."
If you want to sound more diplomatic, you can go the "breakdown in communication" route.
I thought we were talking about U.S. SSA disability?
As I understand it from my research, my disability claim is unaffected by my termination. I was paying into the system and I am Unable To Work, therefore I'm covered until my doctor says I can work again.
My (ex-)employer doesn't pay for the disability, so they shouldn't care either way, anyhow.
Yeah, way to be one of those guys leeching off of the system, asshole. What are you going to expect next, a public health care option or something?
I'm going to try to get my wife to squeeze out another kid while I'm disabled, too, so I can achieve Welfare King status.
Don't forget to cash in on the reality show.
And thanks for the sig.
Also, get a job making money under the table, but go ahead and collect unemployment while you're doing it.