Options

Boobytrapping software for filesharing sites

13567

Posts

  • Options
    blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    Yeah this is where you start to come off as a dick. I had the same problem with Bioshock as an above poster, and the support number was innundated by calls and basically said "call back in 2 weeks once we have a solution for this".

    Yeaaaah, no dice, so I went and got a crack and "bam", perfect. I'm sure you'll spew some stuff about it still being against the EULA, but if you really think that that gives a video game company the right to, with intent, fuck with anything else I have stored on my PC, you have a pretty disturbingly fucked idea of justice. I mean seriously...

    We get it, you're a poor game developer having his goods stolen by them hackers, but you think that gives you the right to go deleting stuff off people's hard drives? Do you consider some people share their computers with teenagers? Mommy is going to be really happy at Game Company X when she finds out that 17 year old billy's download of Gears of Halo 3D for PC has wiped all her office work. :? That's great consumer relations right there.

    blizzard224 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    Yeah this is where you start to come off as a dick. I had the same problem with Bioshock as an above poster, and the support number was innundated by calls and basically said "call back in 2 weeks once we have a solution for this".

    Yeaaaah, no dice, so I went and got a crack and "bam", perfect. I'm sure you'll spew some stuff about it still being against the EULA, but if you really think that that gives a video game company the right to, with intent, fuck with anything else I have stored on my PC, you have a pretty disturbingly fucked idea of justice. I mean seriously...

    We get it, you're a poor game developer having his goods stolen by them hackers, but you think that gives you the right to go deleting stuff off people's hard drives? Do you consider some people share their computers with teenagers? Mommy is going to be really happy at Game Company X when she finds out that 17 year old billy's download of Gears of Halo 3D for PC has wiped all her office work. :? That's great consumer relations right there.

    Did you even read the fucking thread? There is no DRM in the actual game. There is no excuse to download it from a torrent site because there is nothing preventing you from backing it up to another drive, CD, or DVD or re-downloading it from the purchase servers.

    The same old lame excuses for pirating have zero application here.

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yes we get it you use something that makes it very hard to screw up other people's computers. That's not what anyone's talking about. They're referring to actual malignant software unlike yours.

    Quid on
  • Options
    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Most games have demos now. I think that pretty much kills the "try before you buy" excuse for downloading a game. Folks downloading Batman: AA and running into the glide feature were obviously not downloading it to try it out. If they just wanted a taste they'd have played the demo that was freely available.

    jclast on
    camo_sig2.png
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    Then maybe people should stop pirating software by downloading it from sites run by organized crime who are more than happy to turn your computer into another node for their botnet.

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Maybe the other developers shouldn't be idiots about the software and more enlightened like yourself.

    Quid on
  • Options
    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    but but but my computer data is personal property and I don't care if I agreed to it because EULAs violate the constitution abloo bloo bloo
    an end user can no more claim to be the owner of the information in his computer than can a publisher claim ownership of information circulating the internet

    at the end of the day it's just electrical pulses and therefore it's ridiculous to call it "property"
    Most games have demos now. I think that pretty much kills the "try before you buy" excuse for downloading a game. Folks downloading Batman: AA and running into the glide feature were obviously not downloading it to try it out. If they just wanted a taste they'd have played the demo that was freely available.
    There is no demo for Batman: Arkham Asylum

    Azio on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    Most games have demos now. I think that pretty much kills the "try before you buy" excuse for downloading a game. Folks downloading Batman: AA and running into the glide feature were obviously not downloading it to try it out. If they just wanted a taste they'd have played the demo that was freely available.
    There is no demo for Batman: Arkham Asylum

    What? o_O

    The demo came out in August.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah what? I played the demo on my PC and 360.

    Quid on
  • Options
    psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Then maybe people should stop pirating software by downloading it from sites run by organized crime who are more than happy to turn your computer into another node for their botnet.

    You seem to think you can do whatever you want, just because somebody else did something bad.

    Why not go DOS torrent sites then? That would be more productive. And hey, they are bad people, and by your logic it means you can do whatever you want to them on principal.

    I mean, I get it. You've made it a personal crusade to stamp out piracy and you hate it more then the love child of the RIAA and MPAA. And you feel that any, and all, destruction is perfectly fine, regardless of the damage, because "they were doing something bad".

    Nobody is excusing pirating. But you seem to be using piracy to excuse intentionally malicious cyber activities. And the tone you have taken really makes it seem that this is more about getting even and being a dick then it is actual prevention.

    I don't support piracy. But releasing malicious code onto the net, well, you're really no different then the "organized crime" rings of virus spreaders yourself.

    psychotix on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Then maybe people should stop pirating software by downloading it from sites run by organized crime who are more than happy to turn your computer into another node for their botnet.

    You seem to think you can do whatever you want, just because somebody else did something bad.

    Why not go DOS torrent sites then? That would be more productive. And hey, they are bad people, and by your logic it means you can do whatever you want to them on principal.

    I mean, I get it. You've made it a personal crusade to stamp out piracy and you hate it more then the love child of the RIAA and MPAA. And you feel that any, and all, destruction is perfectly fine, regardless of the damage, because "they were doing something bad".

    Nobody is excusing pirating. But you seem to be using piracy to excuse intentionally malicious cyber activities. And the tone you have taken really makes it seem that this is more about getting even and being a dick then it is actual prevention.

    I don't support piracy. But releasing malicious code onto the net, well, you're really no different then the "organized crime" rings of virus spreaders yourself.

    And I expect to see you out on the street trying to interrupt undercover police sting operations.

    I mean, them posing as drug dealers, prostitutes, or hitmen to trap people is clearly Bad. Little Johnny just wanted some reefer/pussy/a dead Lois.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Then maybe people should stop pirating software by downloading it from sites run by organized crime who are more than happy to turn your computer into another node for their botnet.

    You seem to think you can do whatever you want, just because somebody else did something bad.

    Why not go DOS torrent sites then? That would be more productive. And hey, they are bad people, and by your logic it means you can do whatever you want to them on principal.

    I mean, I get it. You've made it a personal crusade to stamp out piracy and you hate it more then the love child of the RIAA and MPAA. And you feel that any, and all, destruction is perfectly fine, regardless of the damage, because "they were doing something bad".

    Nobody is excusing pirating. But you seem to be using piracy to excuse intentionally malicious cyber activities. And the tone you have taken really makes it seem that this is more about getting even and being a dick then it is actual prevention.

    I don't support piracy. But releasing malicious code onto the net, well, you're really no different then the "organized crime" rings of virus spreaders yourself.

    And I expect to see you out on the street trying to interrupt undercover police sting operations.

    I mean, them posing as drug dealers, prostitutes, or hitmen to trap people is clearly Bad. Little Johnny just wanted some reefer/pussy/a dead Lois.

    Oh please. He isn't law enforcement. :lol:

    If anything he'd be the fat fool in a batman halloween costume trying to bust the chinese guy selling DVD's on the corner while blaring "don't copy that floppy" as his theme song.

    psychotix on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    Oh please. He isn't law enforcement. :lol:

    If anything he'd be the fat fool in a batman halloween costume trying to bust the chinese guy selling DVD's on the corner while blaring "don't copy that floppy" as his theme song.

    If nothing else, it would certainly halt sales while he was there. :lol:

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    RBach wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    You keep making this claim, but in many cases this simply isn't true. To be fair, from the sound of things you handle these booby traps a bit differently than most so I'm willing to concede that for your games this is probably true. Am I correct in thinking that your traps aren't present at all in copies of your software purchased through the site. That the malicious code doesn't even get compiled in to that version? Thus only the copies you place on torrent trackers and such have any of this code in there at all. Is that correct? If so, then I'd say that your particular methods seem reasonable even if I disagree with the lengths you go to (I think you need to get a second or third opinion from a lawyer, but whatever).

    The problem is that most games/developers don't maintain separate versions of their code--one with such traps and the other without. It is inevitable that some poor paying customer will encounter a bug that triggers one or more of these traps: this thread alone has a couple examples. I've personally never encountered a booby trap as discussed here, but I've seen DRM screw up on me enough times not to put much faith in its reliability. Over the years I've seen numerous games claim their install discs weren't legitimate even though they actually were (Worms Armageddon, Dialbo 2, and C&C3 just to name what immediately comes to mind). On a more widespread scale, even Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage has had issues with false positives (which I think is why they've gradually toned down its punishments when it does detect "illegitimate" installs).

    Now, things like the Batman gliding "bug" are far more reasonable, but the user needs to be informed that it isn't working because the game believes it's a pirated copy. That way customers can go to the publisher/developer knowing exactly what's going on and they can be prepared to show proof that they did in fact purchase the game if necessary. As it stands it sounds as though everyone who encounters this particular bug is treated as a pirate without being given a chance to defend themselves, but maybe that's an incorrect inference on my part.

    Distributing malicious code can get you in trouble, regardless of who you are targeting and the moral high ground you think you have. Really now, how often does "it's OK because they were bad people up to bad things" hold up in court when you trash someones property deliberately?

    This is incredibly true, think of it like this extreme example:

    "I sold some druggies what they thought was cocaine, but in fact it's cyanide. Suckers!"

    Just because you put it up on some torrent site where pirates get their games etc still doesn't make it the right (or legal) thing to do. This is eye for an eye territory. Only you're essentially purposefully releasing malware, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If I were you I'd go talk to a lawyer immediately, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up right there.

    I honestly put what you're doing in the same category of people who release viruses, their mentality is the same (i've met a few virus writers in my time) and the reasoning is exactly the same. "They shouldn't have been to the pirate/porn etc site in the first case, serves them right".

    GrimReaper on
    PSN | Steam
    ---
    I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
  • Options
    RBachRBach Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    but but but my computer data is personal property and I don't care if I agreed to it because EULAs violate the constitution abloo bloo bloo
    an end user can no more claim to be the owner of the information in his computer than can a publisher claim ownership of information circulating the internet

    at the end of the day it's just electrical pulses and therefore it's ridiculous to call it "property"

    Which is why we have the concept of intellectual property. Which, while the lengths we go to protect it is sometimes (or even often) quite extreme, the basic premise is perfectly reasonable.

    By the way, does anyone know of any other articles like the Spyro one posted earlier? I'd love to read more about these techniques. For example, Earthbound's protection schemes (which I believe was also mentioned earlier). Someone should set up a repository for these things.

    RBach on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    RBach wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    You keep making this claim, but in many cases this simply isn't true. To be fair, from the sound of things you handle these booby traps a bit differently than most so I'm willing to concede that for your games this is probably true. Am I correct in thinking that your traps aren't present at all in copies of your software purchased through the site. That the malicious code doesn't even get compiled in to that version? Thus only the copies you place on torrent trackers and such have any of this code in there at all. Is that correct? If so, then I'd say that your particular methods seem reasonable even if I disagree with the lengths you go to (I think you need to get a second or third opinion from a lawyer, but whatever).

    The problem is that most games/developers don't maintain separate versions of their code--one with such traps and the other without. It is inevitable that some poor paying customer will encounter a bug that triggers one or more of these traps: this thread alone has a couple examples. I've personally never encountered a booby trap as discussed here, but I've seen DRM screw up on me enough times not to put much faith in its reliability. Over the years I've seen numerous games claim their install discs weren't legitimate even though they actually were (Worms Armageddon, Dialbo 2, and C&C3 just to name what immediately comes to mind). On a more widespread scale, even Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage has had issues with false positives (which I think is why they've gradually toned down its punishments when it does detect "illegitimate" installs).

    Now, things like the Batman gliding "bug" are far more reasonable, but the user needs to be informed that it isn't working because the game believes it's a pirated copy. That way customers can go to the publisher/developer knowing exactly what's going on and they can be prepared to show proof that they did in fact purchase the game if necessary. As it stands it sounds as though everyone who encounters this particular bug is treated as a pirate without being given a chance to defend themselves, but maybe that's an incorrect inference on my part.

    Distributing malicious code can get you in trouble, regardless of who you are targeting and the moral high ground you think you have. Really now, how often does "it's OK because they were bad people up to bad things" hold up in court when you trash someones property deliberately?

    This is incredibly true, think of it like this extreme example:

    "I sold some druggies what they thought was cocaine, but in fact it's cyanide. Suckers!"

    Just because you put it up on some torrent site where pirates get their games etc still doesn't make it the right (or legal) thing to do. This is eye for an eye territory. Only you're essentially purposefully releasing malware, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If I were you I'd go talk to a lawyer immediately, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up right there.

    I honestly put what you're doing in the same category of people who release viruses, their mentality is the same (i've met a few virus writers in my time) and the reasoning is exactly the same. "They shouldn't have been to the pirate/porn etc site in the first case, serves them right".

    It's not malware, I've already talked to a lawyer. If you even bothered to read the thread, THE PROGRAM STATES CLEARLY WHAT IT IS GOING TO DO. Following your logic, we should take down all the cleaner/defrag programs on the web because to work they have to destroy and write files.

    Nothing I am doing is illegal, so you can stop barking up that tree 'cuz there ain't no cats in it.

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    RBach wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    You keep making this claim, but in many cases this simply isn't true. To be fair, from the sound of things you handle these booby traps a bit differently than most so I'm willing to concede that for your games this is probably true. Am I correct in thinking that your traps aren't present at all in copies of your software purchased through the site. That the malicious code doesn't even get compiled in to that version? Thus only the copies you place on torrent trackers and such have any of this code in there at all. Is that correct? If so, then I'd say that your particular methods seem reasonable even if I disagree with the lengths you go to (I think you need to get a second or third opinion from a lawyer, but whatever).

    The problem is that most games/developers don't maintain separate versions of their code--one with such traps and the other without. It is inevitable that some poor paying customer will encounter a bug that triggers one or more of these traps: this thread alone has a couple examples. I've personally never encountered a booby trap as discussed here, but I've seen DRM screw up on me enough times not to put much faith in its reliability. Over the years I've seen numerous games claim their install discs weren't legitimate even though they actually were (Worms Armageddon, Dialbo 2, and C&C3 just to name what immediately comes to mind). On a more widespread scale, even Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage has had issues with false positives (which I think is why they've gradually toned down its punishments when it does detect "illegitimate" installs).

    Now, things like the Batman gliding "bug" are far more reasonable, but the user needs to be informed that it isn't working because the game believes it's a pirated copy. That way customers can go to the publisher/developer knowing exactly what's going on and they can be prepared to show proof that they did in fact purchase the game if necessary. As it stands it sounds as though everyone who encounters this particular bug is treated as a pirate without being given a chance to defend themselves, but maybe that's an incorrect inference on my part.

    Distributing malicious code can get you in trouble, regardless of who you are targeting and the moral high ground you think you have. Really now, how often does "it's OK because they were bad people up to bad things" hold up in court when you trash someones property deliberately?

    This is incredibly true, think of it like this extreme example:

    "I sold some druggies what they thought was cocaine, but in fact it's cyanide. Suckers!"

    Just because you put it up on some torrent site where pirates get their games etc still doesn't make it the right (or legal) thing to do. This is eye for an eye territory. Only you're essentially purposefully releasing malware, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If I were you I'd go talk to a lawyer immediately, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up right there.

    I honestly put what you're doing in the same category of people who release viruses, their mentality is the same (i've met a few virus writers in my time) and the reasoning is exactly the same. "They shouldn't have been to the pirate/porn etc site in the first case, serves them right".

    It's not malware, I've already talked to a lawyer. If you even bothered to read the thread, THE PROGRAM STATES CLEARLY WHAT IT IS GOING TO DO. Following your logic, we should take down all the cleaner/defrag programs on the web because to work they have to destroy and write files.

    Nothing I am doing is illegal, so you can stop barking up that tree 'cuz there ain't no cats in it.

    Then get a better lawyer, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up. Your logic itself is flawed, are you advertising and declaring your game is not a game but a disk utility? Because those programs you give as examples do, I'm guessing on the torrent for your game it lists it as a game etc.

    Get better legal advice, much better legal advice. I sure hope you didn't pay much for the advice you got.

    It's still in eye for an eye territory and a monumentally bad idea.

    EDIT: In fact, the mere fact you admit to getting some legal advice in the first place before doing this indicates you know what you're doing is wrong. If you have to get legal advice before you do something chances are it's morally if not legally wrong.

    GrimReaper on
    PSN | Steam
    ---
    I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    RBach wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    You keep making this claim, but in many cases this simply isn't true. To be fair, from the sound of things you handle these booby traps a bit differently than most so I'm willing to concede that for your games this is probably true. Am I correct in thinking that your traps aren't present at all in copies of your software purchased through the site. That the malicious code doesn't even get compiled in to that version? Thus only the copies you place on torrent trackers and such have any of this code in there at all. Is that correct? If so, then I'd say that your particular methods seem reasonable even if I disagree with the lengths you go to (I think you need to get a second or third opinion from a lawyer, but whatever).

    The problem is that most games/developers don't maintain separate versions of their code--one with such traps and the other without. It is inevitable that some poor paying customer will encounter a bug that triggers one or more of these traps: this thread alone has a couple examples. I've personally never encountered a booby trap as discussed here, but I've seen DRM screw up on me enough times not to put much faith in its reliability. Over the years I've seen numerous games claim their install discs weren't legitimate even though they actually were (Worms Armageddon, Dialbo 2, and C&C3 just to name what immediately comes to mind). On a more widespread scale, even Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage has had issues with false positives (which I think is why they've gradually toned down its punishments when it does detect "illegitimate" installs).

    Now, things like the Batman gliding "bug" are far more reasonable, but the user needs to be informed that it isn't working because the game believes it's a pirated copy. That way customers can go to the publisher/developer knowing exactly what's going on and they can be prepared to show proof that they did in fact purchase the game if necessary. As it stands it sounds as though everyone who encounters this particular bug is treated as a pirate without being given a chance to defend themselves, but maybe that's an incorrect inference on my part.

    Distributing malicious code can get you in trouble, regardless of who you are targeting and the moral high ground you think you have. Really now, how often does "it's OK because they were bad people up to bad things" hold up in court when you trash someones property deliberately?

    This is incredibly true, think of it like this extreme example:

    "I sold some druggies what they thought was cocaine, but in fact it's cyanide. Suckers!"

    Just because you put it up on some torrent site where pirates get their games etc still doesn't make it the right (or legal) thing to do. This is eye for an eye territory. Only you're essentially purposefully releasing malware, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If I were you I'd go talk to a lawyer immediately, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up right there.

    I honestly put what you're doing in the same category of people who release viruses, their mentality is the same (i've met a few virus writers in my time) and the reasoning is exactly the same. "They shouldn't have been to the pirate/porn etc site in the first case, serves them right".

    It's not malware, I've already talked to a lawyer. If you even bothered to read the thread, THE PROGRAM STATES CLEARLY WHAT IT IS GOING TO DO. Following your logic, we should take down all the cleaner/defrag programs on the web because to work they have to destroy and write files.

    Nothing I am doing is illegal, so you can stop barking up that tree 'cuz there ain't no cats in it.

    Then get a better lawyer, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up. Your logic itself is flawed, are you advertising and declaring your game is not a game but a disk utility? Because those programs you give as examples do, I'm guessing on the torrent for your game it lists it as a game etc.

    Get better legal advice, much better legal advice. I sure hope you didn't pay much for the advice you got.

    It's still in eye for an eye territory and a monumentally bad idea.

    EDIT: In fact, the mere fact you admit to getting some legal advice in the first place before doing this indicates you know what you're doing is wrong. If you have to get legal advice before you do something chances are it's morally if not legally wrong.

    No, the legal advice was over if people could sue me if they clicked 'yes' (they can't) because it's covered under the usual warranty text that comes with every computer program ever.

    Of course, by your logic, every person that retains a public defender is guilty, because they wouldn't need to talk to a lawyer otherwise. And that's a stupid idea.

    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    Most games have demos now. I think that pretty much kills the "try before you buy" excuse for downloading a game. Folks downloading Batman: AA and running into the glide feature were obviously not downloading it to try it out. If they just wanted a taste they'd have played the demo that was freely available.
    There is no demo for Batman: Arkham Asylum

    What? o_O

    The demo came out in August.
    well shit, I gogled "batman arkham demo" and all I could find was xbox bullshit

    Azio on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    Most games have demos now. I think that pretty much kills the "try before you buy" excuse for downloading a game. Folks downloading Batman: AA and running into the glide feature were obviously not downloading it to try it out. If they just wanted a taste they'd have played the demo that was freely available.
    There is no demo for Batman: Arkham Asylum

    What? o_O

    The demo came out in August.
    well shit, I gogled "batman arkham demo" and all I could find was xbox bullshit

    I googled "batman arkham asylum demo" and got a full page of results for the PC download.

    I certainly hope you didn't pirate it to try it out ... :P

    edit - now go play it, it's awesome

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    There is literally no situation in which distributing malware can be morally or legally defended

    Azio on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    There is literally no situation in which distributing malware can be morally or legally defended

    Ooh. Ooh. I've always wanted to be devil's advocate for this one.

    Malware disguised as kiddie porn.

    Because the only people who would get affected by it are paedophiles. Or people who support them. You don't support child molesters, do you?

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    RBach wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    There is no problem since the "is a fucking pirate" flag on the boobytrapped version is always true. There isn't even a conditional. Because there is no excuse to get it from a torrent site.

    And to date no legitimate customers have ever been affected by this strategy.

    You keep making this claim, but in many cases this simply isn't true. To be fair, from the sound of things you handle these booby traps a bit differently than most so I'm willing to concede that for your games this is probably true. Am I correct in thinking that your traps aren't present at all in copies of your software purchased through the site. That the malicious code doesn't even get compiled in to that version? Thus only the copies you place on torrent trackers and such have any of this code in there at all. Is that correct? If so, then I'd say that your particular methods seem reasonable even if I disagree with the lengths you go to (I think you need to get a second or third opinion from a lawyer, but whatever).

    The problem is that most games/developers don't maintain separate versions of their code--one with such traps and the other without. It is inevitable that some poor paying customer will encounter a bug that triggers one or more of these traps: this thread alone has a couple examples. I've personally never encountered a booby trap as discussed here, but I've seen DRM screw up on me enough times not to put much faith in its reliability. Over the years I've seen numerous games claim their install discs weren't legitimate even though they actually were (Worms Armageddon, Dialbo 2, and C&C3 just to name what immediately comes to mind). On a more widespread scale, even Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage has had issues with false positives (which I think is why they've gradually toned down its punishments when it does detect "illegitimate" installs).

    Now, things like the Batman gliding "bug" are far more reasonable, but the user needs to be informed that it isn't working because the game believes it's a pirated copy. That way customers can go to the publisher/developer knowing exactly what's going on and they can be prepared to show proof that they did in fact purchase the game if necessary. As it stands it sounds as though everyone who encounters this particular bug is treated as a pirate without being given a chance to defend themselves, but maybe that's an incorrect inference on my part.

    Distributing malicious code can get you in trouble, regardless of who you are targeting and the moral high ground you think you have. Really now, how often does "it's OK because they were bad people up to bad things" hold up in court when you trash someones property deliberately?

    This is incredibly true, think of it like this extreme example:

    "I sold some druggies what they thought was cocaine, but in fact it's cyanide. Suckers!"

    Just because you put it up on some torrent site where pirates get their games etc still doesn't make it the right (or legal) thing to do. This is eye for an eye territory. Only you're essentially purposefully releasing malware, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. If I were you I'd go talk to a lawyer immediately, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up right there.

    I honestly put what you're doing in the same category of people who release viruses, their mentality is the same (i've met a few virus writers in my time) and the reasoning is exactly the same. "They shouldn't have been to the pirate/porn etc site in the first case, serves them right".

    It's not malware, I've already talked to a lawyer. If you even bothered to read the thread, THE PROGRAM STATES CLEARLY WHAT IT IS GOING TO DO. Following your logic, we should take down all the cleaner/defrag programs on the web because to work they have to destroy and write files.

    Nothing I am doing is illegal, so you can stop barking up that tree 'cuz there ain't no cats in it.

    Then get a better lawyer, seriously dude. That is all kinds of fucked up. Your logic itself is flawed, are you advertising and declaring your game is not a game but a disk utility? Because those programs you give as examples do, I'm guessing on the torrent for your game it lists it as a game etc.

    Get better legal advice, much better legal advice. I sure hope you didn't pay much for the advice you got.

    It's still in eye for an eye territory and a monumentally bad idea.

    EDIT: In fact, the mere fact you admit to getting some legal advice in the first place before doing this indicates you know what you're doing is wrong. If you have to get legal advice before you do something chances are it's morally if not legally wrong.

    No, the legal advice was over if people could sue me if they clicked 'yes' (they can't) because it's covered under the usual warranty text that comes with every computer program ever.

    Of course, by your logic, every person that retains a public defender is guilty, because they wouldn't need to talk to a lawyer otherwise. And that's a stupid idea.

    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really.

    Now you're just purposefully misunderstanding what was said.

    * Please show where I'm defending piracy. (you're proposing a non sequitor)
    * You're taking the legal advice wording out of context and you know it. It was in the context of, person A is unsure of the legality of an action before they take it so they consult a lawyer because they know it to be morally ambiguous.
    * Warranty/EULA text is big, big legal grey territory. Especially in the EU.

    Think of it this way, a person cannot sign away their legal rights.
    Contract law is pretty solid (much more so than any warranty or EULA), say I sign a contract FyreWulff that says you can kill me with no repercussions. You then proceed to kill me. Because I signed that contract is what you have done legal or illegal?

    Of course it is illegal, the same basic tenets apply to warranties/EULA's, you cannot waive the law, legal rights, obligations etc.

    If the law says it's illegal to disseminate a program with the intent to cause harm/damage then you're in the crapper. I'm pretty sure that if you were in the UK you'd be breaking the UK computer misuse act (1990). I'd hazard a guess there's a similar law in the US.

    GrimReaper on
    PSN | Steam
    ---
    I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
  • Options
    BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    You know, if I had the money to waste on a competent lawyer I would totally pirate your program just to see exactly how sound your legal advice was. There's a difference between that disclaimer and the fact that the bit about your software rendering someone's computer inoperable was intentionally implemented by you. I really don't think repeatedly asking a question is going to get you off the hook considering the general populace's technical ability.

    I wouldn't rule out being potentially guilty of a felony.

    Barrakketh on
    Rollers are red, chargers are blue....omae wa mou shindeiru
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    You know, if I had the money to waste on a competent lawyer I would totally pirate your program just to see exactly how sound your legal advice was. There's a difference between that disclaimer and the fact that the bit about your software rendering someone's computer inoperable was intentionally implemented by you. I really don't think repeatedly asking a question is going to get you off the hook considering the general populace's technical ability.

    I wouldn't rule out being potentially guilty of a felony.

    Please

    do it

    I want to see someone get laughed out of court

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    CmdPromptCmdPrompt Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    CmdPrompt on
    GxewS.png
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    Think of it this way, a person cannot sign away their legal rights.

    I'm pretty sure I addressed this with the facetious "abloo bloo" post earlier, but the data on your computer - or written down on a piece of paper, inscribed on a stone tablet, carved in your arm, etc - is generally not protected by the human rights agreements of the country you reside in.

    Which would not make it illegal to sign an agreement saying that So-And-So is allowed to destroy your documents.

    Hell, I have an agreement like that to sign shortly with an industrial shredding company.

    and speaking of paper, shredding, destruction

    cut down the quote trees, please

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    CmdPrompt wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    Bitching about a program designed to format C:/Windows with the exe renamed to gamename.exe instead of the thousands of fucking illegal pirated versions of games and programs which are certainly pulling in hundreds of thousands of downloads more than my "booby trap" indicates to me that people care more about pirate's "rights" than those of people that actually contribute creatively to the industry as a whole.

    What I'm doing is not even gray. It's black and white. It's not juvenile. It's just something you're going to have to deal with and the only way you can even run into it is if you pirate. The entire intent is to waste their bandwidth and time downloading the program and prevent them from safely pirating it since people would have to check the file every time the game is uploaded, so it actually works in that they give up on pirating it (3 piratiing sites just blacklist the game entirely)

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    CmdPrompt wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    Juvenile yes, but if he's making people wipe their own hard drives and refuse to download warezed versions of his games, I'd say it's pretty damned effective. :P

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    Think of it this way, a person cannot sign away their legal rights.

    I'm pretty sure I addressed this with the facetious "abloo bloo" post earlier, but the data on your computer - or written down on a piece of paper, inscribed on a stone tablet, carved in your arm, etc - is generally not protected by the human rights agreements of the country you reside in.

    Which would not make it illegal to sign an agreement saying that So-And-So is allowed to destroy your documents.

    Hell, I have an agreement like that to sign shortly with an industrial shredding company.

    and speaking of paper, shredding, destruction

    cut down the quote trees, please

    It's not the data, it's more the action that is taken. That's why you have viruses writers arrested.

    GrimReaper on
    PSN | Steam
    ---
    I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    Good thing I'm not writing a virus!

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff, could you please tell me what games you've created? I want to know so I can stay the hell away from them.

    This is not defending piracy in any way. But putting malware into any product is NOT an acceptable solution for anything. And with the attitude you've displayed in your posts, I want to make damn sure I never give you a penny.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    GrimReaper wrote: »
    It's not the data, it's more the action that is taken. That's why you have viruses writers arrested.

    The reason virus writers get arrested is because they do their nefarious deeds without the expressed written consent of the National Football League.

    Or whoever's broadcast they're masquerading as.

    If there was an EULA for a virus that you had to agree to before it totally McPwN3d your shit, then I imagine it would be still a Bad Thing and morally bad, but legally it would be a lot harder to press charges.

    It's like suing someone for getting burned after you were told "that fucking stove is really hot. No, don't touch it. Fine, you want to touch it anyways? Sign this whole thing here. And here. Okay, go ahead."

    ...

    "What did you learn?"

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So anyway, people that create games with genuinely malicious code and place it in torrented games are dicks and wrong.

    Quid on
  • Options
    RBachRBach Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Good thing I'm not writing a virus!

    No, you're writing what amounts to a trojan. So much better. :)

    Unless I missed it you never did respond to my clarification: Do the legitimate versions of your games include this destructive code? Is it compiled in and a flag is set to never trigger it, is it commented out before compiling, what? If the code is in there then there would still be a possibility that legitimate customers somehow trigger it. From what you've said it appears your anti-piracy code isn't in there at all and is only added after the fact specifically for the copies you leak online. Is that correct?

    RBach on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    Bitching about a program designed to format C:/Windows with the exe renamed to gamename.exe instead of the thousands of fucking illegal pirated versions of games and programs which are certainly pulling in hundreds of thousands of downloads more than my "booby trap" indicates to me that people care more about pirate's "rights" than those of people that actually contribute creatively to the industry as a whole.

    What I'm doing is not even gray. It's black and white. It's not juvenile. It's just something you're going to have to deal with and the only way you can even run into it is if you pirate. The entire intent is to waste their bandwidth and time downloading the program and prevent them from safely pirating it since people would have to check the file every time the game is uploaded, so it actually works in that they give up on pirating it (3 piratiing sites just blacklist the game entirely)

    So you're just taking out vengence on people in a way that (I'm pretty damned sure here in the US) is not legal.

    Your "piracy is worse" argument doesn't hold a damn drop of water. That in no way makes your actions any less malicious and in no way affects the legality of them.

    Nobody is defending pirates. What people are saying is that your deliberate distribution of software designed to tank computers makes you no different then the various malware distributors out there. And that your crusade against piracy, does not entitle you to a moral high ground here, nor does it affect the legality of the issue.

    psychotix on
  • Options
    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    RBach wrote: »
    No, you're writing what amounts to a trojan. So much better. :)

    Unless I missed it you never did respond to my clarification: Do the legitimate versions of your games include this destructive code? Is it compiled in and a flag is set to never trigger it, is it commented out before compiling, what? If the code is in there then there would still be a possibility that legitimate customers somehow trigger it. From what you've said it appears your anti-piracy code isn't in there at all and is only added after the fact specifically for the copies you leak online. Is that correct?

    He never responded to it because he's probably really fucking sick of answering this question, but:

    No, they have no destructive code
    It's not present at all
    It's not there, irrelevant
    It's a totally different codebase and executable, it probably isn't even the full game, just gibberish filler that never gets touched because the bunk .exe doesn't reference it.

    Also disclaimer - I am in no way affiliated with FyreWulff's dev house, shit, I've never even bought any of his games. Maybe I'll pirate one to try it, hurf durf? I just happen to find the idea of people saying Yes to that dialog hilarious.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Options
    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    RBach wrote: »
    No, you're writing what amounts to a trojan. So much better. :)

    Unless I missed it you never did respond to my clarification: Do the legitimate versions of your games include this destructive code? Is it compiled in and a flag is set to never trigger it, is it commented out before compiling, what? If the code is in there then there would still be a possibility that legitimate customers somehow trigger it. From what you've said it appears your anti-piracy code isn't in there at all and is only added after the fact specifically for the copies you leak online. Is that correct?

    It's not a trojan either. Because the first part of a trojan is that you don't see it installed on your computer.

    No, the legitimate versions of the game do not have the code anywhere in them. Because I have already pointed this out numerous times, there is no way to get the version of program that does this through legitimate means. It solely affects people who pirate. And has been effective, since I bothered the sites so much that 3 pirating sites now just blacklist the game because they got tired of taking down the dummy versions so much.

    edit: and as Falcon pointed out from my previous posts, it's not even the actual game. It's something that looks like the game in name only. Once it's loaded, it presents itself as a format tool. The entire intent is to waste time, which is awesome because making the dummy versions only takes 10 seconds for me to do and 30 seconds to compile.

    FyreWulff on
  • Options
    CmdPromptCmdPrompt Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    Bitching about a program designed to format C:/Windows with the exe renamed to gamename.exe instead of the thousands of fucking illegal pirated versions of games and programs which are certainly pulling in hundreds of thousands of downloads more than my "booby trap" indicates to me that people care more about pirate's "rights" than those of people that actually contribute creatively to the industry as a whole.

    What I'm doing is not even gray. It's black and white. It's not juvenile. It's just something you're going to have to deal with and the only way you can even run into it is if you pirate. The entire intent is to waste their bandwidth and time downloading the program and prevent them from safely pirating it since people would have to check the file every time the game is uploaded, so it actually works in that they give up on pirating it (3 piratiing sites just blacklist the game entirely)

    No, see, we care enough about the game industry to want people to create and/or use an effective DRM scheme such as Steam, rather than relying on questionable practices to prevent piracy. If your booby trapped game did just format C:\ without consent, that would be straight up distribution of malware, and a horrid approach to trying to combat piracy. As is, the threat to format their data is just juvenile. Had you merely told them it's pirated and redirect them to their website, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

    CmdPrompt on
    GxewS.png
  • Options
    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    But please, keep defending piracy. It's worth the laughs, really. Oh no, someone uploaded a mislabeled torrent to a pirate site, oh my fucking god call the authorities :lol::lol::lol:
    Could you stop this? It's in no way representative of what we're saying.

    It'd be nice if we could just conclude that what FryeWulff is doing is a legal gray area, but a juvenile and ineffective approach to solving the problem.

    Bitching about a program designed to format C:/Windows with the exe renamed to gamename.exe instead of the thousands of fucking illegal pirated versions of games and programs which are certainly pulling in hundreds of thousands of downloads more than my "booby trap" indicates to me that people care more about pirate's "rights" than those of people that actually contribute creatively to the industry as a whole.

    What I'm doing is not even gray. It's black and white. It's not juvenile. It's just something you're going to have to deal with and the only way you can even run into it is if you pirate. The entire intent is to waste their bandwidth and time downloading the program and prevent them from safely pirating it since people would have to check the file every time the game is uploaded, so it actually works in that they give up on pirating it (3 piratiing sites just blacklist the game entirely)

    So you're just taking out vengence on people in a way that (I'm pretty damned sure here in the US) is not legal.

    Your "piracy is worse" argument doesn't hold a damn drop of water. That in no way makes your actions any less malicious and in no way affects the legality of them.

    Nobody is defending pirates. What people are saying is that your deliberate distribution of software designed to tank computers makes you no different then the various malware distributors out there. And that your crusade against piracy, does not entitle you to a moral high ground here, nor does it affect the legality of the issue.

    ^ What he said.

    Also, I've just read through a chunk of the UK computer misuse act (1990, really mind numbing reading) and I'd say with a good 99% certainty that what you're doing FryeWulff is definitely breaking the law. (in the UK, there's probably other acts too.. there tends to be a bit of crossover between acts)

    What with the law being on a similar parity between Europe and the US, i'd say there is likely a US equivalent of that law over in Americana.

    EDIT: But hey, IANAL.

    GrimReaper on
    PSN | Steam
    ---
    I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Sign In or Register to comment.