No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
Because I have to think about every line when I write poetry.
THAT IS THE POINT
If you don't think about every line, and go back and revise it a hundred times, and change every sentence until it is excellent but you are still unsatisfied, you're not doing it right. This is as true of prose as it is of poetry.
The restrictions of poetry are there to force your thinking into lines that it would not otherwise follow. Meter and rhyme create word arrangements of peculiar beauty because the poet would not have thought of those particular words otherwise.
This "writing flows out of you" is hippy horseshit.
Now now, that's not true.
It can flow out of you. You may or may not need to revise...you can write a "perfect" poem (probably a simple one) on a first try. Because it is simple or easy to write doesn't immediately invalidate its artistic merit or quality. Some people spend 10 minutes writing an awesome song, and the same singer/songwriter might spend 10 years on another. Same thing with a poem.
But, the poem - floweth immediate or not - should be good and concise and say what the poet means to say exactly as he means to say it.
The notion that "writing flows out of you" is, indeed, hippy horseshit, but the whole "artist must be completely obsequious to himself" thing is horseshit too. Sometimes something DOES flow, and it's completely valid for that to happen.
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No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
Is it easier to list most genres and styles, and say "I don't like these," or is it easier to say "I don't like poetry?"
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
Because I have to think about every line when I write poetry.
THAT IS THE POINT
If you don't think about every line, and go back and revise it a hundred times, and change every sentence until it is excellent but you are still unsatisfied, you're not doing it right. This is as true of prose as it is of poetry.
The restrictions of poetry are there to force your thinking into lines that it would not otherwise follow. Meter and rhyme create word arrangements of peculiar beauty because the poet would not have thought of those particular words otherwise.
This "writing flows out of you" is hippy horseshit.
No, it's really not. I have to revise, sure, but the basic flow and pace is natural. Just because you have to work at being good doesn't mean there aren't people with natural talent. Natural talent needs to be refined though, which is why I'm focusing on an emphasis in writing. Mostly short stories and the like.
Natural talent <<< practice and experience. Writing is a learned skill, like any other. Don't think this is just my personal opinion; any good, successful writer will tell you the same thing. Everyone from Margaret Atwood to Ernest Hemingway to Oscar Wilde to Stephen King. The ideas can come however they come, but the writing itself is a construct that must be refined. It's not a magical stream of words.
It doesn't matter how good the writing is when you just write as it comes out; it could be and should be a hundred times better. Skill in writing comes from the brain, not the heart.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Ok?
Forms of literature aren't genres, though, so what's your point?
edit: TECHNICALLY, they are, but they aren't really regarded as genres in the same way two different forms of music or movie are. I mean, the difference between a Short Story and a Novel is quite a different relationship between Horror and Comedy or Rock and Alternative.
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
Because I have to think about every line when I write poetry.
THAT IS THE POINT
If you don't think about every line, and go back and revise it a hundred times, and change every sentence until it is excellent but you are still unsatisfied, you're not doing it right. This is as true of prose as it is of poetry.
The restrictions of poetry are there to force your thinking into lines that it would not otherwise follow. Meter and rhyme create word arrangements of peculiar beauty because the poet would not have thought of those particular words otherwise.
This "writing flows out of you" is hippy horseshit.
No, it's really not. I have to revise, sure, but the basic flow and pace is natural. Just because you have to work at being good doesn't mean there aren't people with natural talent. Natural talent needs to be refined though, which is why I'm focusing on an emphasis in writing. Mostly short stories and the like.
Natural talent <<< practice and experience. Writing is a learned skill, like any other. Don't think this is just my personal opinion; any good, successful writer will tell you the same thing. Everyone from Margaret Atwood to Ernest Hemingway to Oscar Wilde to Stephen King. The ideas can come however they come, but the writing itself is a construct that must be refined. It's not a magical stream of words.
It doesn't matter how good the writing is when you just write as it comes out; it could be and should be a hundred times better. Skill in writing comes from the brain, not the heart.
Yeah, it's pretty accepted that Charles Dickens is the only great writer who was not a big revisor, and even then he revised a ton.
Just look at Joyce. A fucking genius. Also rewrote like a madman.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Ok?
Forms of literature aren't genres, though, so what's your point?
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Poetry isn't a "genre," any more than painting or sculpture or film is a "genre."
And it's fine if you don't like poetry as an art form, if it doesn't jive with you, but it's pretty fucking stupid to say poetry is, as an art form, inferior.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Ok?
Forms of literature aren't genres, though, so what's your point?
Because I have to think about every line when I write poetry.
THAT IS THE POINT
If you don't think about every line, and go back and revise it a hundred times, and change every sentence until it is excellent but you are still unsatisfied, you're not doing it right. This is as true of prose as it is of poetry.
The restrictions of poetry are there to force your thinking into lines that it would not otherwise follow. Meter and rhyme create word arrangements of peculiar beauty because the poet would not have thought of those particular words otherwise.
This "writing flows out of you" is hippy horseshit.
Now now, that's not true.
It can flow out of you. You may or may not need to revise...you can write a "perfect" poem (probably a simple one) on a first try. Because it is simple or easy to write doesn't immediately invalidate its artistic merit or quality. Some people spend 10 minutes writing an awesome song, and the same singer/songwriter might spend 10 years on another. Same thing with a poem.
But, the poem - floweth immediate or not - should be good and concise and say what the poet means to say exactly as he means to say it.
The notion that "writing flows out of you" is, indeed, hippy horseshit, but the whole "artist must be completely obsequious to himself" thing is horseshit too. Sometimes something DOES flow, and it's completely valid for that to happen.
Not really. I'm sure maybe it's happened somewhere, once, but almost all great poetry has been revised at least to some extent.
Even Ginsberg, who said "first thought, best thought" was full of shit, as he was a tireless reviser.
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Poetry isn't a "genre," any more than painting or sculpture or film is a "genre."
And it's fine if you don't like poetry as an art form, if it doesn't jive with you, but it's pretty fucking stupid to say poetry is, as an art form, inferior.
I don't recall ever saying it was inferior. I said it was for homosexual men, but that doesn't make it inferior, now does it?
No it's not FBC. It really is not. I don't hate ALL poetry–I just hate most of it. It takes a lot for me to say "hey that was a pretty good poem". Poetry is not enjoyable for me. It's more like saying you don't like a genre of film or music. Like you don't like Classical, or you don't like Horror.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
So you're saying it's impossible to have a broad genre with smaller, specific genres inside of it? Way to be a moron. Poetry isn't part of literature then, is it? It's just out all on it's own?
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
No, I'm saying that genres within genres are possible.
Poetry isn't a "genre," any more than painting or sculpture or film is a "genre."
And it's fine if you don't like poetry as an art form, if it doesn't jive with you, but it's pretty fucking stupid to say poetry is, as an art form, inferior.
Right. I do not appreciate sculpture and painting, but that's because I am not that educated in those areas. I realize this, and I don't go around saying "SCULPTURE SUCKS LOL!!!!"
Because everyone speaks and writes, they think their opinion is just as valid.
Because I have to think about every line when I write poetry.
THAT IS THE POINT
If you don't think about every line, and go back and revise it a hundred times, and change every sentence until it is excellent but you are still unsatisfied, you're not doing it right. This is as true of prose as it is of poetry.
The restrictions of poetry are there to force your thinking into lines that it would not otherwise follow. Meter and rhyme create word arrangements of peculiar beauty because the poet would not have thought of those particular words otherwise.
This "writing flows out of you" is hippy horseshit.
Now now, that's not true.
It can flow out of you. You may or may not need to revise...you can write a "perfect" poem (probably a simple one) on a first try. Because it is simple or easy to write doesn't immediately invalidate its artistic merit or quality. Some people spend 10 minutes writing an awesome song, and the same singer/songwriter might spend 10 years on another. Same thing with a poem.
But, the poem - floweth immediate or not - should be good and concise and say what the poet means to say exactly as he means to say it.
The notion that "writing flows out of you" is, indeed, hippy horseshit, but the whole "artist must be completely obsequious to himself" thing is horseshit too. Sometimes something DOES flow, and it's completely valid for that to happen.
Not really. I'm sure maybe it's happened somewhere, once, but almost all great poetry has been revised at least to some extent.
Even Ginsberg, who said "first thought, best thought" was full of shit, as he was a tireless reviser.
Everyone revises, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that some people have this idea that revision is a life's journey each writer has to undertake for each piece of artistic wisdom he pens. Yes, revising and editing and rethinking and so on and so forth is necessary, but the degree to which that is necessary is not always so very dire as people seem to make it sound. Didn't Salinger spend 10 years writing and rewriting and revising Catcher In The Rye? It may have been necessary for him, but not necessarily for someone else with a different work. I don't think he spent 10 years on Franny and Zooey.
You said it was "fucking stupid." That smells the same as "inferior."
I can call something stupid without calling it inferior, can't I? P.S. Art is dead.
Art isn't dead, it has simply manifested in different forms.
t Poldy: Uneducated opinions are not worthless or invalid; they simply do not appreciate the fuller knowledge. I would sincerely hope you would not accuse me of having incorrect opinions regarding, say, music, simply because I have nothing more than experience and an introductory course to guide me.
t Poldy: Uneducated opinions are not worthless or invalid; they simply do not appreciate the fuller knowledge. I would sincerely hope you would not accuse me of having incorrect opinions regarding, say, music, simply because I have nothing more than experience and an introductory course to guide me.
No no no. That's not what I meant. I just hate the notion that everything is subjective so therefore all opinions are equal. I think you have great things to say about music, but I'd listen to Walter Piston before you
@Kusu: Art is dead? David Foster Wallace would like to talk to you.
Everyone revises, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that some people have this idea that revision is a life's journey each writer has to undertake for each piece of artistic wisdom he pens. Yes, revising and editing and rethinking and so on and so forth is necessary, but the degree to which that is necessary is not always so very dire as people seem to make it sound. Didn't Salinger spend 10 years writing and rewriting and revising Catcher In The Rye? It may have been necessary for him, but not necessarily for someone else with a different work. I don't think he spent 10 years on Franny and Zooey.
Not everyone will spend 10 years revising, but I think their writing would be better if they did. Revising is not really a process that ends; it is more like a...a mathematical function, a curve with diminishing returns. At some point you might as well just call it finished, but it never really is.
Not everyone will slice their work down to the naked core words like Hemingway, either, but that's a matter of style.
Kusu, you're going to be a public school English teacher, aren't you?
Another generation down the drain.
NO
DEAR GOD NO
NEVER EVER
I HATE TEACHING PEOPLE
if I were going to become a teacher I'd force myself to have a more open mind towards poetry, to make sure they get a good general idea of literature as a whole. Thank God I'm not going to be a teacher.
And Kusu. Fuck man. It's the major I took and triumphed in. I had to deal with people who didn't have a fucking clue about what they were supposed to be learning for two years.
I will condescend until you get a bloody clue about your supposed intended academic area.
Posts
Now now, that's not true.
It can flow out of you. You may or may not need to revise...you can write a "perfect" poem (probably a simple one) on a first try. Because it is simple or easy to write doesn't immediately invalidate its artistic merit or quality. Some people spend 10 minutes writing an awesome song, and the same singer/songwriter might spend 10 years on another. Same thing with a poem.
But, the poem - floweth immediate or not - should be good and concise and say what the poet means to say exactly as he means to say it.
The notion that "writing flows out of you" is, indeed, hippy horseshit, but the whole "artist must be completely obsequious to himself" thing is horseshit too. Sometimes something DOES flow, and it's completely valid for that to happen.
No it's not.
I don't generally like restoration poems, nor do I like gothic poetry.
Those are genres and styles. Poetry is not a genre or style.
Stop being such a dumb fuck, Kusu.
Stop being such a fucking _J_, Poldy.
Are you trying to draw a parallel between movie/music genres and varying forms of literature? Because that is nonsense.
Natural talent <<< practice and experience. Writing is a learned skill, like any other. Don't think this is just my personal opinion; any good, successful writer will tell you the same thing. Everyone from Margaret Atwood to Ernest Hemingway to Oscar Wilde to Stephen King. The ideas can come however they come, but the writing itself is a construct that must be refined. It's not a magical stream of words.
It doesn't matter how good the writing is when you just write as it comes out; it could be and should be a hundred times better. Skill in writing comes from the brain, not the heart.
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
CAROLS!
DAMN YOU CAROLS
Forms of literature aren't genres, though, so what's your point?
edit: TECHNICALLY, they are, but they aren't really regarded as genres in the same way two different forms of music or movie are. I mean, the difference between a Short Story and a Novel is quite a different relationship between Horror and Comedy or Rock and Alternative.
Yeah, it's pretty accepted that Charles Dickens is the only great writer who was not a big revisor, and even then he revised a ton.
Just look at Joyce. A fucking genius. Also rewrote like a madman.
Exactly!
I think we should stay withing the season of hate, and be hating on carols instead of poetry.
3DS: 2852-6809-9411
Poetry isn't a "genre," any more than painting or sculpture or film is a "genre."
And it's fine if you don't like poetry as an art form, if it doesn't jive with you, but it's pretty fucking stupid to say poetry is, as an art form, inferior.
Not really. I'm sure maybe it's happened somewhere, once, but almost all great poetry has been revised at least to some extent.
Even Ginsberg, who said "first thought, best thought" was full of shit, as he was a tireless reviser.
Right. I do not appreciate sculpture and painting, but that's because I am not that educated in those areas. I realize this, and I don't go around saying "SCULPTURE SUCKS LOL!!!!"
Because everyone speaks and writes, they think their opinion is just as valid.
Wrong.
Everyone revises, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that some people have this idea that revision is a life's journey each writer has to undertake for each piece of artistic wisdom he pens. Yes, revising and editing and rethinking and so on and so forth is necessary, but the degree to which that is necessary is not always so very dire as people seem to make it sound. Didn't Salinger spend 10 years writing and rewriting and revising Catcher In The Rye? It may have been necessary for him, but not necessarily for someone else with a different work. I don't think he spent 10 years on Franny and Zooey.
t Poldy: Uneducated opinions are not worthless or invalid; they simply do not appreciate the fuller knowledge. I would sincerely hope you would not accuse me of having incorrect opinions regarding, say, music, simply because I have nothing more than experience and an introductory course to guide me.
In this context, not really.
I hope you are, how you say, "taking the piss."
Also, Poldy, hi5 on the taste in literature. Eliot + Joyce ftw.
No no no. That's not what I meant. I just hate the notion that everything is subjective so therefore all opinions are equal. I think you have great things to say about music, but I'd listen to Walter Piston before you
@Kusu: Art is dead? David Foster Wallace would like to talk to you.
Not everyone will spend 10 years revising, but I think their writing would be better if they did. Revising is not really a process that ends; it is more like a...a mathematical function, a curve with diminishing returns. At some point you might as well just call it finished, but it never really is.
Not everyone will slice their work down to the naked core words like Hemingway, either, but that's a matter of style.
Kusu, you're going to be a public school English teacher, aren't you?
Another generation down the drain.
DEAR GOD NO
NEVER EVER
I HATE TEACHING PEOPLE
if I were going to become a teacher I'd force myself to have a more open mind towards poetry, to make sure they get a good general idea of literature as a whole. Thank God I'm not going to be a teacher.
Oh, right.
You're going to be a pop culture columnist or some crap like that.
I hope you have been working on that Britney Spears essay about how much she likes Chihuahuas.
And Kusu. Fuck man. It's the major I took and triumphed in. I had to deal with people who didn't have a fucking clue about what they were supposed to be learning for two years.
I will condescend until you get a bloody clue about your supposed intended academic area.