AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
Yeah, I've found the games difficulty on apocalyptic is absolutely perfect.
Minding, I have finished both God of War and God of War 2 on Titan. Some parts of God of War 2 can be plain sadistic, so having to deal with bullshit is in my blood.
Once you get your Abyssal armor complete, go ahead and do Apocalypse then. It's infinitely easier. I mean, even normal without it was harder. The armor is sick, makes most attacks do virtually nil and gives you an "always on" health leech.
Fuck this game. Memo to anyone picking it up: Do not up the difficulty. You will run into shit that's far too frustrating to deal with, and you can't turn the difficulty back down mid-game.
I'm not in the mood to start over because this goosing mini-boss has a million HP and can't be blocked or dodged.
Which boss?
It's a big miniboss thing on a section of highway. Starts by throwing cars at you. My problem is that the arena is small, and I can't avoid his two-hit combo. I can back-dash away from the first hit, but by then, I'm near the edge, and he hits me with the second hit even if I try to side-dash.
Guess I'll start over on Normal. It also took me two days to clear the Insta-Kill trial "room".
Houn on
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
That guy was a pain in the ass for me too, and I was only playing on normal.
Fuck this game. Memo to anyone picking it up: Do not up the difficulty. You will run into shit that's far too frustrating to deal with, and you can't turn the difficulty back down mid-game.
I'm not in the mood to start over because this goosing mini-boss has a million HP and can't be blocked or dodged.
Which boss?
It's a big miniboss thing on a section of highway. Starts by throwing cars at you. My problem is that the arena is small, and I can't avoid his two-hit combo. I can back-dash away from the first hit, but by then, I'm near the edge, and he hits me with the second hit even if I try to side-dash.
Guess I'll start over on Normal. It also took me two days to clear the Insta-Kill trial "room".
You can take off a good chunk of that guy's health by catching the cars he throws at you and chucking them back at him. Once he's in melee range stone skin makes him much much easier.
...you can catch cars? Where do you get Stoneskin?
Also, I destroyed all the cars so he couldn't throw them at me after the first two or three attempts. In my save, there are no more cars.
Houn on
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KorKnown to detonate from time to timeRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
So I just got this game 2 days ago. I'm in the Black Throne already but I had a question about a boss before that:
The spider boss chick. How were you actually supposed to kill her? Because I just used my hookshot when she stood still, slapped her in the face a tiny bit, until she eventually killed me over and over again.* The way I actually killed her was by using my consumables filling up my rage bar. So I went Chaos form 4 times on her.
*You know that chest right outside her door that fills up your health? Yeah, that bugged out on me on subsequent reloads, and looks closed, but didn't have the green glow, and thus couldn't be opened.
Also wanted to ask if it's possible to permanently miss stuff in this game?
Also wanted to ask if it's possible to permanently miss stuff in this game?
Achievements, yes.
All other in game stuff, no. You can get back to everywhere. Even the place they will explicitly tell you you can never return to.
There is one chest that is missable, and it's available the second time you enter...
the shadow realm in the big lake area after meeting the stone golem. There is a chest in one of the buildings in the water.
It's just some blue souls though so if you miss it it's not a huge deal. There's no achievement for getting all the chests.
As for the difficulty, I played on apocalyptic my first time through and it was pretty damn tough in the beginning but I think a lot of that came from me being unfamiliar with the combat system. Once you start getting some more life bars it gets a little easier. I died so many times on Tiamat but most other bosses I beat first try.
So I just got this game 2 days ago. I'm in the Black Throne already but I had a question about a boss before that:
The spider boss chick. How were you actually supposed to kill her? Because I just used my hookshot when she stood still, slapped her in the face a tiny bit, until she eventually killed me over and over again.* The way I actually killed her was by using my consumables filling up my rage bar. So I went Chaos form 4 times on her.
*You know that chest right outside her door that fills up your health? Yeah, that bugged out on me on subsequent reloads, and looks closed, but didn't have the green glow, and thus couldn't be opened.
Also wanted to ask if it's possible to permanently miss stuff in this game?
I did the hookshot thing at first, but then I just slashed her till she disappeared then dodged all of her attacks getting a hit in whenever I could. I was expecting more strategy but thats pretty much it.
...you can catch cars? Where do you get Stoneskin?
Also, I destroyed all the cars so he couldn't throw them at me after the first two or three attempts. In my save, there are no more cars.
When the boss throws a car at you, hit 'grab' when it's close. You'll catch it and can throw it back immediately. The boss doesn't know how to catch, either.
-Loki- on
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Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
I already have a copy of RF:G and the hellbook really doesn't interest me.
Post IN THE THREAD something along the lines of "i'll take the code" and I will PM it over. First come first serve.
Yeah you should have a lot more. Check out some older areas as new paths should be opened up with the new items you found. You can go back to dungeons too, if you only had 3 by now there will be some you missed in there too.
Definitely should have more wrath cores, at the Black Throne I was at 7.
Don't just go from A to B to C, make sure you backtrack, take note of things that you believe you'll need something else for later, etc.
I explored, but I didn't look for every little nook and cranny in a room. I hate it when a game requires that you do that.
Well, its not a requirement really. Only if you care about using wrath powers or completionist/acheivement type stuff. Vulgrim sells a full core for 10k if you haven't already done that.
Honestly there really isn't anything much in the game that is actually hidden.
There are a small handful of chests that you might not know exist unless you can see them on the map with the hoardseeker or that one artifact.
And they just require stupid things like destroying all the fire hydrants or lighting the torches...which you probably wouldn't be able to just discern.
I can only think of three that have that sort of requirement though. One in the Crossroads, one in the Twilight Cathedral and one in the Choking Grounds.
There are three more chests in the
Serpent Roads
that most people probably don't even think about ever looking for too.
Everything else is more or less in plain sight, though behind an ice wall or whatever; but it's abundantly clear that there will be a chest there even if you cant see it on the wall.
It is just good to keep in mind that aside from the passages between areas, every single chest in a dungeon can be acquired within the dungeon. You will never have to go back to, say, the twilight cathedral for chests; any inside can be gained purely with items found in there. Same with every other dungeon.
The Ashlands is the only "dungeon" that defies this but any chests that require items you get later (with the chain, for example) are accessed in the "overworld" portion, and not in the caves and passages below or past the large area on the way to the big worm.
The passages between areas don't follow this but they're always very small and easy to access from the main hubs.
And they just require stupid things like destroying all the fire hydrants or lighting the torches...which you probably wouldn't be able to just discern.
I disagree, because the Torches were self evident to me as I always figure "Is this put here for no reason?". If there are a bunch of torches (I know what you were talking about) in a hallway for no discernable reason that you can light, trying to light them gives you a reward for thinking outside the box. This is good game design and isn't stupid.
Destroying everything is also not stupid because 9/10 you get souls for destroying everything. I destroy practically everything and so missing chests has been very rare for me, because not only does it give blue souls but double rewards you.
So I firmly disagree, rewarding the player for thinking outside the box and destroying things in the environment is not "stupid" at all.
And they just require stupid things like destroying all the fire hydrants or lighting the torches...which you probably wouldn't be able to just discern.
I disagree, because the Torches were self evident to me as I always figure "Is this put here for no reason?". If there are a bunch of torches (I know what you were talking about) in a hallway for no discernable reason that you can light, trying to light them gives you a reward for thinking outside the box. This is good game design and isn't stupid.
The problem with that puzzle is it has a primary function, relating to the story, which does not involve lighting all of them, only enough to light a bomb at the end of a corridor. Personally, when I did that one, that's all I did. I'm not new to games, or adventure games in particular, but I didn't think to light all of them. They served their function - I opened the unopenable door. I had to go back and get that when I found out what lighting all of them did.
If they weren't tied to a primary objective, I would have lit them all. Since they were tied to a primary objective, my overriding thought was 'purpose served, move on'.
-Loki- on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
The problem with that puzzle is it has a primary function, relating to the story, which does not involve lighting all of them, only enough to light a bomb at the end of a corridor.
So? The story mechanic merely told me I could light them. It didn't tell me I had to do it, but I did anyway because I couldn't see why there were so many. So naturally I thought laterally and just lit all of them. Merely to see what happens and I got rewarded for it.
Just because it didn't have a direct mechanical or puzzle reason didn't make it a bad idea, it made it rewarding for players who thought outside the box. The entire game is built like this with those chests, if you destroy everything in an area that there is an odd amount of (Like Fire Hydrants or Graves) you get a neat reward.
You two make it sound like it's impossible to figure this out without a guide, neither of you have obviously played Final Fantasy XII and encountered it's room of 12 chests (or whatever it was). Now that's bullshit.
If they weren't tied to a primary objective, I would have lit them all.
It's why it's a "secret" and not a puzzle. It was immediately obvious to me there were more torches than required to solve the puzzle, lighting all of them made perfect sense for a secret of some sort.
The game rewards creative thinking or just destroying everything (which is also rewarded with extra souls as well). This is hardly "stupid".
Edit: In fact my definition of stupid AND bullshit is Final Fantasy XII. If you've never played it there is a room in one dungeon with something like 12 chests. You get to open 1 chest and they all disappear. Why is this stupid and bullshit? Because it gives you a 1/12 chance of getting the best spear in the game or losing it right then and there (and I think it's obscenely hard to get it any other way). Is there any idea whatsoever you could potentially lose the best spear in the game if you choose the wrong chest? Nope.
That is the definition of stupid and bullshit in game design. I dare either of you to explain how darksiders does anything similar - considering destroying things 90% of the time gives you souls anyway (so the game is encouraging you to destroy things).
I'm missing one last shard, and it's in an area that says "Unexplored Location." It's between Anvil's Ford and The Crossroads. What is this place and how do I get there?
And they just require stupid things like destroying all the fire hydrants or lighting the torches...which you probably wouldn't be able to just discern.
I disagree, because the Torches were self evident to me as I always figure "Is this put here for no reason?". If there are a bunch of torches (I know what you were talking about) in a hallway for no discernable reason that you can light, trying to light them gives you a reward for thinking outside the box. This is good game design and isn't stupid.
Destroying everything is also not stupid because 9/10 you get souls for destroying everything. I destroy practically everything and so missing chests has been very rare for me, because not only does it give blue souls but double rewards you.
So I firmly disagree, rewarding the player for thinking outside the box and destroying things in the environment is not "stupid" at all.
Yeah.
No.
Under no circumstances would one just know they need to destroy the hydrants in the Crossroads in order to get a chest to show.
They're in other areas too and have no effect, and they're just one of many environment items in each area. There is no way one would think "oh, ok, I need to destroy the fire hydrants, of course".
As you said, everything gives you souls more or less. Most players won't go through and destroy every single little parking meter etc. It's needless and there is no indication that there would ever be any reward for doing so, because there isn't any other place in the game that there is a reward for doing so.
The torches, ok. I kind of just assumed they were all related to the room puzzle and got it.
But not the Hydrants.
And also, not really the tombstones. Given that you only have to destroy the cross tombstones in the Choking Grounds to get that chest, there's also no reason you'd just assume that something was there and that's how you would get it.
There are no hints, no clues to this being the case. And in fact if you never equipped the artifact that shows treasures, in the choking ground in particular, you wouldn't ever even know something was there.
At all.
EDIT: Also, I'd point out, again, that there are a grand total of three chests in the entire game to be gotten this way.
That's not exactly an indication of a desire on the developers part to "reward" exploration.
I mean, give me a break. I loved this game to death. Played back to back games to get all the achievements and will defend virtually every aspect of it.
Under no circumstances would one just know they need to destroy the hydrants in the Crossroads in order to get a chest to show.
You don't need to know that specifically, but they give you souls when destroyed and so if you destroy them you are getting souls. That I got rewarded with souls for destroying them was all the encouragement required to destroy them. That it ended up giving me bonus chests was icing on a delicious cake.
They're in other areas too and have no effect, and they're just one of many environment items in each area. There is no way one would think "oh, ok, I need to destroy the fire hydrants, of course".
I did? The instant I destroyed them and got a chest, after all I was harvesting souls to buy things it immediately made me realize destroying environmental objects = chests.
This isn't hard to figure out at all.
As you said, everything gives you souls more or less. Most players won't go through and destroy every single little parking meter etc.
The game rewards destroying these things, if you do it you can get secrets. Oh noes, the developer put rewards in for destroying things.
MY GOD!
It's needless and there is no indication that there would ever be any reward for doing so
Because you didn't try doing it.
This is going to be a very frustrating conversation I feel.
You say "It's needless" and yet contradict yourself by complaining that it gives you a reward for doing it. It's not "needless" in that case because it will reward you for destroying everything. You don't have to destroy everything, but getting extra souls for buying things does help and it's not like it takes a great amount of effort to destroy everything that's breakable in most areas.
So no, I disagree entirely with what you say. It's not stupid, it's rewarding players for doing what the game already encourages doing with the fact breakables give you souls. Other things are extensions of puzzle mechanics for secrets. There doesn't have to be an indication destroying things will give you a hidden item at all. The game directly encourages you to destroy things with souls and has hidden rewards for destroying things. I found ALL of these things you are whining about WITHOUT a guide just playing the game. If the game encourages me to destroy things by rewarding me for doing it, I always do it. It's when the game asks you to do things that are contrary to its own design, like jump to your doom 50 times in this one specific place that's bullshit (and that's a real example). Darksiders does absolutely NOTHING like that.
EDIT: Also, I'd point out, again, that there are a grand total of three chests in the entire game to be gotten this way.
It's probably why they are "Secrets" and not something that is obviously put everywhere. Your complaint is ringing really hollow here, if the game didn't give you anything for destroying things I would be more sympathetic. That you get souls for it completely kills any base your argument has. Perhaps you should consider the fact breakable items give souls as an indication it could be worth destroying them? Because that's immediately how I interpreted it. Also no hints or clues? I'm going to call bullshit on your argument because the game gives you souls for destroying them. Encouraging you to destroy objects by giving you souls for them? I mean, how much more obvious did they have to be destroying objects gave you something for doing it?
Edit: Isn't the crossroads like, the first area in the entire game as well? The first one that encourages you to go and harvest souls and has environmental objects that give souls? I can't remember now, but I can swear it is so the game saying "Go and get a bunch of souls", combined with the fact the hydrants there (most other things) give souls and it being the FIRST area AND having a secret chest gained from destroying environmental objects... I mean... come on...
If there were other portions of the game where anything remotely like these 3 chests took place you might have a point.
But there isn't.
Three chests. Out of about two hundred. That have clear methods of opening them up.
It's not a design decision that held some "exploration" benefit to the game. There is no exploration to the game. It's very linear and everything except for, again, those three chests, are completely out in the open and for the world to see; even if you need to find the new toy to open them up.
Good for you that you felt the need to destroy every single destroyable object in the game. But the fact is that isn't a goal of the game, there isn't any indication that you're supposed to just wack the shit out of every object you come across and there is no indication that doing so will give you any reward other than souls.
Also, I'd like to point out without the harvester artifact the vast majority of non "large" items do not contain souls. Some do, some don't. It's completely random until you get it. There's a reason its description says "ensures souls..." because before that you'd just be wasting your time hitting the hundredth parking meter for no fucking reason.
Quit being a silly goose. For fucks sake, no one is criticizing the game or the developers here. It's 3 fucking chests that you feel the need to make your stand to defend.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
[quote=The Dude With HerpesIf there were other portions of the game where anything remotely like these 3 chests took place you might have a point.[/quote]
But there are, 2 in fact and the first time it occurs is the first area in the entire game.
You just have zero point and are desperately trying to justify it with no logic at all. The first area in the game is where the first one of these is. That's just fact and the second area in the game is the second time it occurs. Both are pretty straightforward to find as it doesn't take a lot of destroying stuff to get either.
So in total:
1) The first two areas of the game both have this mechanical reward for destroying environmental objects
2) At the beginning of the game you need souls the most for upgrades, so destroying things to get souls is most logical
3) The game gives you souls for destroying environmental objects.
All three of these stack up quickly to make it completely obvious to me that destroying stuff gets a reward. Especially when it does it in the FIRST TWO AREAS OF THE GAME.
there isn't any indication that you're supposed to just wack the shit out of every object you come across and there is no indication that doing so will give you any reward other than souls.
Odd, I quickly figured out that whacking objects gives stuff. You know, because the first two areas of the game are the first two places you get these conditional chests. You know, from destroying objects after it tells you to get souls...
Yeah.
For fucks sake, no one is criticizing the game or the developers here.
Well you did imply the developers were stupid in reference to a "stupid design choice", which it isn't considering the above 3 facts.
It's 3 fucking chests that you feel the need to make your stand to defend.
It's 3 chests that have a pretty obvious way of getting them if you just do something the designers are already rewarding you for that you feel the need to copiously whine about.
I want to chime in and say that the hydrants were dumb. In a cityscape, they seem to be scenery, destructible scenery, yes, but still scenery. The crosses stood out because they were different than the rest of the tombstones in the area, while still having a cohesion to the atmosphere. As for the torches...years of Zelda have taught me that unlit torches = treasure.
The hydrants just didn't give any good indication of being any thing "extra."
That being said, what's a good area to grind some weapon experience, my bloody gauntlet is only lvl 1 =(
I have to say the hydrant thing was pretty obtuse and I also wouldn't have ever got it without reading it here.
The gravestones I only got because I figured we might be in a repeat of the hydrant situation when the overworld horadseeker revealed an apparently non-existant chest. A pity that I then applied that logic to the drowned pass and wasted so much time in fruitless searching for a trigger!
It's not the concept that's the problem, it's the fact that there's no feedback whatsoever when you accidently pop a hydrant to indicate that this is something you be seeking out more of. Had there been tone or a light or maybe water jetting from the next hydrant or something it would have been fine.
Jam Warrior on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
There is water jetting from the hydrants though (I actually broke a tree at the same time and assumed it was the trees, either way I still got it), I actually had no idea it was the hydrants specifically I just linked together that destroying stuff got me a bonus. For example with the graves, I had no idea it was specifically the graves with crosses because I simply destroyed everything and got it. They really weren't hard at all to find if you just ran around and smashed whatever was available. I've always smashed everything in every single game I've ever played. If it can be destroyed, I break it.
Anyone who says the torches were not self evident has never played a zelda game.
The hydrants were silly but only gave a soul reward. Can't remember about the reward from the gravestones but I'm not really a completionist trying to track down every single achievement point and if I was then it's a pretty short trip to the internet to find out.
Next thing you know, people will be saying that the random top hat guy was pointless as he was never explained. Easter eggs are fun people!
Anyone who says the torches were not self evident has never played a zelda game.
Are you sure you've played Zelda games? When have unlit torches in a single Zelda dungeon room ever been used for two puzzles, with different numbers of lit torches accomplishing different things? You light them all, everything happens, you're done.
I thought Loki explained it pretty well. You needed a torch for a puzzle, there were unlit torches available to accomplish the puzzle, and you didn't need to light them all to complete the puzzle. Mission accomplished, move on.
Anyone who says the torches were not self evident has never played a zelda game.
Are you sure you've played Zelda games? When have unlit torches in a single Zelda dungeon room ever been used for two puzzles, with different numbers of lit torches accomplishing different things? You light them all, everything happens, you're done.
I thought Loki explained it pretty well. You needed a torch for a puzzle, there were unlit torches available to accomplish the puzzle, and you didn't need to light them all to complete the puzzle. Mission accomplished, move on.
Skull2185 on
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
Personally I just saw extra torches so I lit them, sorry if you guys didn't.
For a game that's been knocked for being generic, I find it funny to see it getting flak for going against some norms and not sign posting every little thing in the game.
So Finished the game, pretty fucking amazing. Defiently my game of the year so far. I am so glad someone finally has taken the zelda style into the 21st century, i Mean I wasn't getting tired of having the same Awesome game rehased to me again and again.
Though I have to wonder, with Zelda having a clear multiplatform alternative can Nintendo really survive?
So Finished the game, pretty fucking amazing. Defiently my game of the year so far. I am so glad someone finally has taken the zelda style into the 21st century, i Mean I wasn't getting tired of having the same Awesome game rehased to me again and again.
Though I have to wonder, with Zelda having a clear multiplatform alternative can Nintendo really survive?
Um, have you not been paying attention the last few years? Nintendo has been making a fuck-ton of money catering to people who don't give a shit about games like Zelda or Metroid. Also, you act like 2 similar franchises cannot exist at the same time and both be successful.
I'm a few hours into this. I recently picked it up used for pretty cheap (and it still had a code for the free RFG, so bonus). I'm really loving the gameplay, but the game is trying a little too hard to be bad-ass and so-epic, to the point of it all getting a bit tiring. I swear, I'm going to have to play Wind Waker when I'm done just to balance it out.
I just started playing this and I'm really enjoying it so far - I just defeated Tiamat last night and really enjoyed that dungeon. I have to say that I enjoy Zelda gameplay a lot better without the tired old Zelda universe. I'm really enjoying the story and atmosphere of this game.
As far as the whole debate over the validity of the fire hydrant/torches business, personally I think it's a little silly to have something like that built in, but it doesn't really bother me that it's there. I'm not the type who's going to run around destroying every single thing in the environment and spend hours searching every nook and cranny of every area because if I do that I'll end up bored and never finish the game. But as long as the developers haven't set the game up so that I miss out on something crucial by playing the way I prefer, I'm fine with it. I won't miss that one chest that much.
Posts
Minding, I have finished both God of War and God of War 2 on Titan. Some parts of God of War 2 can be plain sadistic, so having to deal with bullshit is in my blood.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
It's a big miniboss thing on a section of highway. Starts by throwing cars at you. My problem is that the arena is small, and I can't avoid his two-hit combo. I can back-dash away from the first hit, but by then, I'm near the edge, and he hits me with the second hit even if I try to side-dash.
Guess I'll start over on Normal. It also took me two days to clear the Insta-Kill trial "room".
You can take off a good chunk of that guy's health by catching the cars he throws at you and chucking them back at him. Once he's in melee range stone skin makes him much much easier.
Also, I destroyed all the cars so he couldn't throw them at me after the first two or three attempts. In my save, there are no more cars.
*You know that chest right outside her door that fills up your health? Yeah, that bugged out on me on subsequent reloads, and looks closed, but didn't have the green glow, and thus couldn't be opened.
Also wanted to ask if it's possible to permanently miss stuff in this game?
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Achievements, yes.
All other in game stuff, no. You can get back to everywhere. Even the place they will explicitly tell you you can never return to.
There is one chest that is missable, and it's available the second time you enter...
It's just some blue souls though so if you miss it it's not a huge deal. There's no achievement for getting all the chests.
As for the difficulty, I played on apocalyptic my first time through and it was pretty damn tough in the beginning but I think a lot of that came from me being unfamiliar with the combat system. Once you start getting some more life bars it gets a little easier. I died so many times on Tiamat but most other bosses I beat first try.
When the boss throws a car at you, hit 'grab' when it's close. You'll catch it and can throw it back immediately. The boss doesn't know how to catch, either.
Post IN THE THREAD something along the lines of "i'll take the code" and I will PM it over. First come first serve.
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
Don't just go from A to B to C, make sure you backtrack, take note of things that you believe you'll need something else for later, etc.
I explored, but I didn't look for every little nook and cranny in a room. I hate it when a game requires that you do that.
Well, its not a requirement really. Only if you care about using wrath powers or completionist/acheivement type stuff. Vulgrim sells a full core for 10k if you haven't already done that.
There are a small handful of chests that you might not know exist unless you can see them on the map with the hoardseeker or that one artifact.
And they just require stupid things like destroying all the fire hydrants or lighting the torches...which you probably wouldn't be able to just discern.
I can only think of three that have that sort of requirement though. One in the Crossroads, one in the Twilight Cathedral and one in the Choking Grounds.
There are three more chests in the
Everything else is more or less in plain sight, though behind an ice wall or whatever; but it's abundantly clear that there will be a chest there even if you cant see it on the wall.
It is just good to keep in mind that aside from the passages between areas, every single chest in a dungeon can be acquired within the dungeon. You will never have to go back to, say, the twilight cathedral for chests; any inside can be gained purely with items found in there. Same with every other dungeon.
The Ashlands is the only "dungeon" that defies this but any chests that require items you get later (with the chain, for example) are accessed in the "overworld" portion, and not in the caves and passages below or past the large area on the way to the big worm.
The passages between areas don't follow this but they're always very small and easy to access from the main hubs.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I disagree, because the Torches were self evident to me as I always figure "Is this put here for no reason?". If there are a bunch of torches (I know what you were talking about) in a hallway for no discernable reason that you can light, trying to light them gives you a reward for thinking outside the box. This is good game design and isn't stupid.
Destroying everything is also not stupid because 9/10 you get souls for destroying everything. I destroy practically everything and so missing chests has been very rare for me, because not only does it give blue souls but double rewards you.
So I firmly disagree, rewarding the player for thinking outside the box and destroying things in the environment is not "stupid" at all.
The problem with that puzzle is it has a primary function, relating to the story, which does not involve lighting all of them, only enough to light a bomb at the end of a corridor. Personally, when I did that one, that's all I did. I'm not new to games, or adventure games in particular, but I didn't think to light all of them. They served their function - I opened the unopenable door. I had to go back and get that when I found out what lighting all of them did.
If they weren't tied to a primary objective, I would have lit them all. Since they were tied to a primary objective, my overriding thought was 'purpose served, move on'.
So? The story mechanic merely told me I could light them. It didn't tell me I had to do it, but I did anyway because I couldn't see why there were so many. So naturally I thought laterally and just lit all of them. Merely to see what happens and I got rewarded for it.
Just because it didn't have a direct mechanical or puzzle reason didn't make it a bad idea, it made it rewarding for players who thought outside the box. The entire game is built like this with those chests, if you destroy everything in an area that there is an odd amount of (Like Fire Hydrants or Graves) you get a neat reward.
You two make it sound like it's impossible to figure this out without a guide, neither of you have obviously played Final Fantasy XII and encountered it's room of 12 chests (or whatever it was). Now that's bullshit.
It's why it's a "secret" and not a puzzle. It was immediately obvious to me there were more torches than required to solve the puzzle, lighting all of them made perfect sense for a secret of some sort.
The game rewards creative thinking or just destroying everything (which is also rewarded with extra souls as well). This is hardly "stupid".
Edit: In fact my definition of stupid AND bullshit is Final Fantasy XII. If you've never played it there is a room in one dungeon with something like 12 chests. You get to open 1 chest and they all disappear. Why is this stupid and bullshit? Because it gives you a 1/12 chance of getting the best spear in the game or losing it right then and there (and I think it's obscenely hard to get it any other way). Is there any idea whatsoever you could potentially lose the best spear in the game if you choose the wrong chest? Nope.
That is the definition of stupid and bullshit in game design. I dare either of you to explain how darksiders does anything similar - considering destroying things 90% of the time gives you souls anyway (so the game is encouraging you to destroy things).
Yeah.
No.
Under no circumstances would one just know they need to destroy the hydrants in the Crossroads in order to get a chest to show.
They're in other areas too and have no effect, and they're just one of many environment items in each area. There is no way one would think "oh, ok, I need to destroy the fire hydrants, of course".
As you said, everything gives you souls more or less. Most players won't go through and destroy every single little parking meter etc. It's needless and there is no indication that there would ever be any reward for doing so, because there isn't any other place in the game that there is a reward for doing so.
The torches, ok. I kind of just assumed they were all related to the room puzzle and got it.
But not the Hydrants.
And also, not really the tombstones. Given that you only have to destroy the cross tombstones in the Choking Grounds to get that chest, there's also no reason you'd just assume that something was there and that's how you would get it.
There are no hints, no clues to this being the case. And in fact if you never equipped the artifact that shows treasures, in the choking ground in particular, you wouldn't ever even know something was there.
At all.
EDIT: Also, I'd point out, again, that there are a grand total of three chests in the entire game to be gotten this way.
That's not exactly an indication of a desire on the developers part to "reward" exploration.
I mean, give me a break. I loved this game to death. Played back to back games to get all the achievements and will defend virtually every aspect of it.
But this is silly.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
You don't need to know that specifically, but they give you souls when destroyed and so if you destroy them you are getting souls. That I got rewarded with souls for destroying them was all the encouragement required to destroy them. That it ended up giving me bonus chests was icing on a delicious cake.
I did? The instant I destroyed them and got a chest, after all I was harvesting souls to buy things it immediately made me realize destroying environmental objects = chests.
This isn't hard to figure out at all.
The game rewards destroying these things, if you do it you can get secrets. Oh noes, the developer put rewards in for destroying things.
MY GOD!
Because you didn't try doing it.
This is going to be a very frustrating conversation I feel.
You say "It's needless" and yet contradict yourself by complaining that it gives you a reward for doing it. It's not "needless" in that case because it will reward you for destroying everything. You don't have to destroy everything, but getting extra souls for buying things does help and it's not like it takes a great amount of effort to destroy everything that's breakable in most areas.
So no, I disagree entirely with what you say. It's not stupid, it's rewarding players for doing what the game already encourages doing with the fact breakables give you souls. Other things are extensions of puzzle mechanics for secrets. There doesn't have to be an indication destroying things will give you a hidden item at all. The game directly encourages you to destroy things with souls and has hidden rewards for destroying things. I found ALL of these things you are whining about WITHOUT a guide just playing the game. If the game encourages me to destroy things by rewarding me for doing it, I always do it. It's when the game asks you to do things that are contrary to its own design, like jump to your doom 50 times in this one specific place that's bullshit (and that's a real example). Darksiders does absolutely NOTHING like that.
It's probably why they are "Secrets" and not something that is obviously put everywhere. Your complaint is ringing really hollow here, if the game didn't give you anything for destroying things I would be more sympathetic. That you get souls for it completely kills any base your argument has. Perhaps you should consider the fact breakable items give souls as an indication it could be worth destroying them? Because that's immediately how I interpreted it. Also no hints or clues? I'm going to call bullshit on your argument because the game gives you souls for destroying them. Encouraging you to destroy objects by giving you souls for them? I mean, how much more obvious did they have to be destroying objects gave you something for doing it?
Edit: Isn't the crossroads like, the first area in the entire game as well? The first one that encourages you to go and harvest souls and has environmental objects that give souls? I can't remember now, but I can swear it is so the game saying "Go and get a bunch of souls", combined with the fact the hydrants there (most other things) give souls and it being the FIRST area AND having a secret chest gained from destroying environmental objects... I mean... come on...
You're wrong.
It is simple.
If there were other portions of the game where anything remotely like these 3 chests took place you might have a point.
But there isn't.
Three chests. Out of about two hundred. That have clear methods of opening them up.
It's not a design decision that held some "exploration" benefit to the game. There is no exploration to the game. It's very linear and everything except for, again, those three chests, are completely out in the open and for the world to see; even if you need to find the new toy to open them up.
Good for you that you felt the need to destroy every single destroyable object in the game. But the fact is that isn't a goal of the game, there isn't any indication that you're supposed to just wack the shit out of every object you come across and there is no indication that doing so will give you any reward other than souls.
Also, I'd like to point out without the harvester artifact the vast majority of non "large" items do not contain souls. Some do, some don't. It's completely random until you get it. There's a reason its description says "ensures souls..." because before that you'd just be wasting your time hitting the hundredth parking meter for no fucking reason.
Quit being a silly goose. For fucks sake, no one is criticizing the game or the developers here. It's 3 fucking chests that you feel the need to make your stand to defend.
Get over it. You're wrong.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
But there are, 2 in fact and the first time it occurs is the first area in the entire game.
You just have zero point and are desperately trying to justify it with no logic at all. The first area in the game is where the first one of these is. That's just fact and the second area in the game is the second time it occurs. Both are pretty straightforward to find as it doesn't take a lot of destroying stuff to get either.
So in total:
1) The first two areas of the game both have this mechanical reward for destroying environmental objects
2) At the beginning of the game you need souls the most for upgrades, so destroying things to get souls is most logical
3) The game gives you souls for destroying environmental objects.
All three of these stack up quickly to make it completely obvious to me that destroying stuff gets a reward. Especially when it does it in the FIRST TWO AREAS OF THE GAME.
Odd, I quickly figured out that whacking objects gives stuff. You know, because the first two areas of the game are the first two places you get these conditional chests. You know, from destroying objects after it tells you to get souls...
Yeah.
Well you did imply the developers were stupid in reference to a "stupid design choice", which it isn't considering the above 3 facts.
It's 3 chests that have a pretty obvious way of getting them if you just do something the designers are already rewarding you for that you feel the need to copiously whine about.
The hydrants just didn't give any good indication of being any thing "extra."
That being said, what's a good area to grind some weapon experience, my bloody gauntlet is only lvl 1 =(
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Oh it's such a nice day, I think I'll go out the window! Whoa!
The gravestones I only got because I figured we might be in a repeat of the hydrant situation when the overworld horadseeker revealed an apparently non-existant chest. A pity that I then applied that logic to the drowned pass and wasted so much time in fruitless searching for a trigger!
It's not the concept that's the problem, it's the fact that there's no feedback whatsoever when you accidently pop a hydrant to indicate that this is something you be seeking out more of. Had there been tone or a light or maybe water jetting from the next hydrant or something it would have been fine.
It's a useful habit.
The hydrants were silly but only gave a soul reward. Can't remember about the reward from the gravestones but I'm not really a completionist trying to track down every single achievement point and if I was then it's a pretty short trip to the internet to find out.
Next thing you know, people will be saying that the random top hat guy was pointless as he was never explained. Easter eggs are fun people!
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
Are you sure you've played Zelda games? When have unlit torches in a single Zelda dungeon room ever been used for two puzzles, with different numbers of lit torches accomplishing different things? You light them all, everything happens, you're done.
I thought Loki explained it pretty well. You needed a torch for a puzzle, there were unlit torches available to accomplish the puzzle, and you didn't need to light them all to complete the puzzle. Mission accomplished, move on.
For a game that's been knocked for being generic, I find it funny to see it getting flak for going against some norms and not sign posting every little thing in the game.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
Though I have to wonder, with Zelda having a clear multiplatform alternative can Nintendo really survive?
Um, have you not been paying attention the last few years? Nintendo has been making a fuck-ton of money catering to people who don't give a shit about games like Zelda or Metroid. Also, you act like 2 similar franchises cannot exist at the same time and both be successful.
I'm a few hours into this. I recently picked it up used for pretty cheap (and it still had a code for the free RFG, so bonus). I'm really loving the gameplay, but the game is trying a little too hard to be bad-ass and so-epic, to the point of it all getting a bit tiring. I swear, I'm going to have to play Wind Waker when I'm done just to balance it out.
As far as the whole debate over the validity of the fire hydrant/torches business, personally I think it's a little silly to have something like that built in, but it doesn't really bother me that it's there. I'm not the type who's going to run around destroying every single thing in the environment and spend hours searching every nook and cranny of every area because if I do that I'll end up bored and never finish the game. But as long as the developers haven't set the game up so that I miss out on something crucial by playing the way I prefer, I'm fine with it. I won't miss that one chest that much.