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The Traffic Thread: Laws, Layouts, and Lackwits

joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
edited October 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
The thread has kind of spun off of the original purpose, in a good way. So this is now a place to vent about what annoys you in traffic, whether it be the dumb laws that can waylay you, the stupid way your road system is laid out or the dipshits who annoy you and cause road rage in individuals who have difficulty staying calm.

joshofalltrades on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I don't want you flying out of your windshield into me thank you very much.

    Quid on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    live in NH, we don't have to do shit
    i'm pretty sure we could sit on the front of the car and drive with a series of levers and pulleys and the cops would give us thumbs up

    Local H Jay on
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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I uh. I have no problem with being forced to wear your seatbelt. There's alot of things worth bitching over that the police do, but that's really not one of them.

    SniperGuy on
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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Seat belt laws keep my socialist taxes down.

    Honk on
    PSN: Honkalot
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm fine with you not wearing your seat belt, as long as you first sign a DNR in the case of a car accident.

    matt has a problem on
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    Gennenalyse RuebenGennenalyse Rueben The Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously Pretty Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Seatbelt laws are a simple way to decrease injuries -- and thus health care costs -- from car accidents and provide some extra money to the government. Also, you flying out of your windshield because you didn't wear a seatbelt has the potential to cause harm to more than just yourself.

    Gennenalyse Rueben on
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    PhistiPhisti Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Seat belt laws make complete sense. One could argue if you don't wear a seat belt you're more likely to die in a traffic accident, and therefore cost the state less (or your insurance provider, whomever) but reality is most collisions are low speed, and seatbelts significantly reduce the risk of injury in those scenarios (and reduce the risk of death in more serious ones).

    As to other BS charges... vehicle maintenance such as tire checks are kosher as well, it's a public safety thing, dice in the mirror and passing lane infractions sound more like a city cop wanted to fill the coffers. But then, that's more of a problem with people and putting them in authority than anything else - a reasonable cop would have let either charge go.

    For example: It is illegal to have anything covering your license plate here... be it a clear plastic cover to keep the plate from rusting, or a tinted plate since you want your car to look hoss. If a cop pulls you over and notices the plate cover, you have 48 hours to turn over the cover to the department and all fines are waived. That seems like a reasonable approach to things like the dice in the mirror... now the passing? Sounds like someone had a bad day.

    Phisti on
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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    In Georgia we have the same law, more or less, dubbed "Click it or Ticket".

    I basically flat out refuse to drive anyone who doesn't fasten their seat-belt, on the basis of "You breaking your neck will somehow effect my insurance premiums, I know it". So, either buckle up, or get the fuck out.

    In Athens, where I live, the police are known for doing more than a few corrupt things, but specifically speaking, I have zero problems with the seat belt law.

    Synthesis on
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    DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It opens up an unnecessary loophole. Now a lot of times an officer can say they pulled someone over for a seatbelt violation as an excuse to check the car or occupants. That's a bit extreme and incredibly difficult to disprove in a court. However the notion behind having people wear seat belts isn't really a bad one.

    DasUberEdward on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    The general theory behind seat belt laws is that you can't really drive when you or someone else is flying around the cabin, and you can injure fellow passengers with your body.

    Apparently, the fuzzy dice thing is a bit regional. Some areas have a strong dislike for objects that disrupt the line of sight.

    I'm pretty sure tires are similar to functioning lights, being covered by laws that require that a vehicle be road-worthy. Or somebody had lost control recently and the police were following a program or policy of checking and alerting drivers who they thought to be at risk.

    That last case is, like the Gates case, clearly a case of an officer who doesn't actually know the law. Most traffic laws will let you do whatever you want as long as it is necessary to ovoid an obstruction.

    Scalfin on
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    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    We don't have such laws in NH, and we have something like 15% lower levels of seat belt usage compared to other states, with the resulting higher injury/death rates.

    Speaker on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    This reminds me of the methods of protest people started in FL when law was passed to require helmets on motorcycles. Bikers just clipped them to their knees, since the law didn't state they had to be worn on the head.

    Please tell me that your idea of seat belt choice would begin at 18 or 21 at least? Fat bikers in their 50s at least have some concept of informed consent.

    Octoparrot on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Phisti wrote: »
    Seat belt laws make complete sense. One could argue if you don't wear a seat belt you're more likely to die in a traffic accident, and therefore cost the state less (or your insurance provider, whomever) but reality is most collisions are low speed, and seatbelts significantly reduce the risk of injury in those scenarios (and reduce the risk of death in more serious ones).

    As to other BS charges... vehicle maintenance such as tire checks are kosher as well, it's a public safety thing, dice in the mirror and passing lane infractions sound more like a city cop wanted to fill the coffers. But then, that's more of a problem with people and putting them in authority than anything else - a reasonable cop would have let either charge go.

    For example: It is illegal to have anything covering your license plate here... be it a clear plastic cover to keep the plate from rusting, or a tinted plate since you want your car to look hoss. If a cop pulls you over and notices the plate cover, you have 48 hours to turn over the cover to the department and all fines are waived. That seems like a reasonable approach to things like the dice in the mirror... now the passing? Sounds like someone had a bad day.

    Tinted windows are illegal in PA.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    This reminds me of the methods of protest people started in FL when law was passed to require helmets on motorcycles. Bikers just clipped them to their knees, since the law didn't state they had to be worn on the head.

    Please tell me that your idea of seat belt choice would begin at 18 or 21 at least? Fat bikers in their 50s at least have some concept of informed consent.
    Bikers who don't wear helmets are called organ donors for a reason.

    matt has a problem on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    When seatbelts were developed, Canada immediately made them mandatory, the US did not. Traffic deaths (adjusted for population obviously) in the US greatly outpaced traffic deaths in Canada until the implementation of seatbelt laws. They are an inarguable good, and I will not allow anyone in my car, nor anyone driving me, to do so without a seatbelt on.

    Now, the overuse of stop signs in my state, that's something to complain about.

    durandal4532 on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Someone needs the post the story of the guy who ranted in his college newspaper about seatbelt laws - then was the only one killed in an accident because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

    AngelHedgie on
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    taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    Bikers are called organ donors for a reason.

    TFTFY

    taeric on
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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    This reminds me of the methods of protest people started in FL when law was passed to require helmets on motorcycles. Bikers just clipped them to their knees, since the law didn't state they had to be worn on the head.

    Please tell me that your idea of seat belt choice would begin at 18 or 21 at least? Fat bikers in their 50s at least have some concept of informed consent.

    Not wearing a helmet when driving a motorcycle is up there in the top #5 most stupid things possible to do!

    Honk on
    PSN: Honkalot
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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Canada and the US developed seatbelts around the same time. Canada immediately made them mandatory, the US did not. Traffic deaths (adjusted for population obviously) in the US greatly outpaced traffic deaths in Canada until the implementation of seatbelt laws. They are an inarguable good, and I will not allow anyone in my car, nor anyone driving me, to do so without a seatbelt on.

    Now, the overuse of stop signs in my state, that's something to complain about.

    Yeah, that's always going to be a local issue. God knows in my town they needed more (as proven when there were two accidents within 10 minutes of one another at the same intersection--to their credit, they put up two more stop signs a few weeks later).

    Synthesis on
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    SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I actually got into a really heated argument about the passing lane with someone.

    Laws are pretty diverse about this: http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html

    No one knows how to really take on the left lane. Some states you can NEVER be in it, others state that you can drive in it, but if others are going 75, you need to go 75 (which is funny, because it's a law essentially telling you to break the law).

    SkyGheNe on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Seat belt laws are a bunch of bullshit in place to give the state more income over frivilous shit.

    The outrageous costs for all tickets is because of that. The state needs income, so they rack up the fees on tickets to get the citizen to pay for the hot tub at the state house or whatever other bullshit there is. It's an utter corruption of something meant to keep people as safe drivers but instead turned into something for profit.

    JustinSane07 on
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    ApogeeApogee Lancks In Every Game Ever Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It is for the greater good that seatbelts are mandatory. If you crash, and die due to lack of a seatbelt, you obviously stop contributing to society. Thus, no seatbelt makes for a big negative effect on everyone.

    And frankly, not using one is just fucking stupid. A friend of mine just lost her father because he was a gung-ho individual who never wore a seatbelt whilst driving his truck down the 401 at night. Some sort of bravado. Some sort of accident occured (details pending, but no alchohol involved), and his car and another got totalled. My friends father was catapulted through the windshield and died; the other guy was strapped in and walked away from it.

    Yes, sometimes the law needs to protect people from themselves. People are stupid.

    Apogee on
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    kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    As far as I can tell, seatbelt laws are in place both for low speed collision safety, and as a way to pull people over for exceeding the maximum safe occupancy of a car (number of people = number of seatbelts) and enforcing a sanity rule on activities of people in a moving vehicle (sit in your goddamned seat, no climbing around the car flailing legs around while someone's operating it, damnit)

    I have no problem at all with them, and love that my car will emit constant beeps if it senses ~40lbs or more in a seat and no seatbelt. Buckle up, dumbass in my car, or this beeping will never stop.

    kildy on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Want to know a really bad way to get people to wear seatbelts? Pass a law with a $5 fine.

    Want to know a really good way to get people to wear seatbelts? Pass a law with a $250 fine.

    There is no good argument for not wearing a seatbelt. None. This is a $250 limited scope tax on the stupid.

    PotatoNinja on
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    WazzaWazza Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Someone needs the post the story of the guy who ranted in his college newspaper about seatbelt laws - then was the only one killed in an accident because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

    http://www.journalstar.com/news/local/article_d61cc109-3492-54ef-849d-0a5d7f48027a.html

    Wazza on
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    kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Seat belt laws are a bunch of bullshit in place to give the state more income over frivilous shit.

    The outrageous costs for all tickets is because of that. The state needs income, so they rack up the fees on tickets to get the citizen to pay for the hot tub at the state house or whatever other bullshit there is. It's an utter corruption of something meant to keep people as safe drivers but instead turned into something for profit.

    The cost of tickets is to make it something you don't DO, not just something you do and accept that you may occasionally spend extra for doing it.

    If there's a $20 fine for going 40 over the limit, I'm going to do so constantly and just factor the fine into my driving habits. Same if you make parking in a handicap spot $30. It's still likely cheaper than parking in a garage in parts of Boston!

    However, you make it a $200 towing fee + $1000 fine, and no sane person is going to break that rule. Well, except that racket in Boston that got busted for selling forged handicapped permits to rich people so they could park there and be total pricks.

    kildy on
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    In my experience, the only people who complain about wearing seatbelts are either libertarians, or little children.

    I wonder why.

    Schrodinger on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Ah, found the story I was talking about earlier.
    (5 January 2005, Nebraska) In September of his senior year at the University of Nebraska, 21-year-old Derek wrote an impassioned declaration of independence from seatbelts for his college newspaper. Although "intrusive and ridiculous" seatbelt laws saved 6100 lives a year, according to statistics from the U.S. Congress, Derek concluded with the statement, "If I want to be the jerk that flirts with death, I should be able to do that."

    Derek "was a bright young boy, a 4.0" majoring in five subjects and planning to attend law school. He was also smart enough to tutor friends in subjects he didn't even take. But good grades don't equate with common sense.

    Derek was returning from a holiday in San Antonio, Texas. The driver of the Ford Explorer and his front seat passenger both wore seatbelts. Only Derek was willing to buck the system, sitting without a seatbelt in the back seat because, in the words of his newspaper column, he belonged to the "die-hard group of non-wearers out there who simply do not wish to buckle up, no matter what the government does."

    When the SUV hit a patch of ice, slid off US 80 and rolled several times, Derek, in an involuntary display of his freedom, was thrown from the vehicle. He died at the scene. The other occupants of the SUV, slaves to the seatbelt, survived with minor injuries.

    Alcohol was not involved in the accident.

    Nothing beats an object example.

    AngelHedgie on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Man, that's really tragic and also a good example of why we have seatbelt laws. Shut the fuck up and wear your seatbelt, end of argument.

    PotatoNinja on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Oh trust me, I know all about parking in Boston. Bunch of fucking thieves in that city. I hope Menino is found guilty of corruption.

    And your example is outrageous and just another way for the states to bring money into their bank accounts. It's the perfect example of how retarded these fees are. 1200 for parking in handicap spot? Really? You don't think that's just a tiny bit retarded?

    Edit: Fuck that. Fuck seatbelt laws and fuck helmet laws. I agree with Derek. If you want to risk it, you should be allowed to. For the record, I do wear my seat belt, but if the guy next to me wants to run the risk of it, fucking let them. It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.

    JustinSane07 on
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Oh trust me, I know all about parking in Boston. Bunch of fucking thieves in that city. I hope Menino is found guilty of corruption.

    And your example is outrageous and just another way for the states to bring money into their bank accounts. It's the perfect example of how retarded these fees are. 1200 for parking in handicap spot? Really? You don't think that's just a tiny bit retarded?

    Edit: Fuck that. Fuck seatbelt laws and fuck helmet laws. I agree with Derek. If you want to risk it, you should be allowed to. For the record, I do wear my seat belt, but if the guy next to me wants to run the risk of it, fucking let them. It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.
    Nope. A million isn't either. Heck, a billion isn't. Know why? Because if you park there, you know you're breaking the law. You're saying "fuck the law, I don't care" and I have no problem fining people a completely arbitrary amount for willingly violating a law.

    matt has a problem on
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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Justin what, why do you have a boner for parking in the handicap spots?

    As stated, the fine is sky high so that no one actually does it. I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to willingly risk paying a 1200 dollar ticket. Really, the higher it is the more unlikely it is to affect anyone! It's very simple logic!

    Honk on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I was under the impression that cops can't/don't pull you over for "suspicion of not wearing a seat belt," since you can't tell from their driving like with intoxication. If they pull you over and notice you're not wearing a seatbelt, then it gets tacked on. Or they have those stops where they stop everyone and check, in which case I assume they're just looking for the Joker who escaped from Arkham a half hour ago.

    KalTorak on
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    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Oh trust me, I know all about parking in Boston. Bunch of fucking thieves in that city. I hope Menino is found guilty of corruption.

    And your example is outrageous and just another way for the states to bring money into their bank accounts. It's the perfect example of how retarded these fees are. 1200 for parking in handicap spot? Really? You don't think that's just a tiny bit retarded?

    Edit: Fuck that. Fuck seatbelt laws and fuck helmet laws. I agree with Derek. If you want to risk it, you should be allowed to. For the record, I do wear my seat belt, but if the guy next to me wants to run the risk of it, fucking let them. It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.

    Here's the thing. They can choose to not wear their seatbelt. There's just a huge fine associated with it. It's not a surprise, or sneaky. They advertise the fact that if you get caught not wearing your seatbelt, it's gonna cost you. Complaining about the related cost as being some kind of infringement is dumb, the government isn't throwing you in jail for not wearing your seatbelt.

    Some things cost money. This is one of those things.

    Nova_C on
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    ApogeeApogee Lancks In Every Game Ever Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Want to know a really bad way to get people to wear seatbelts? Pass a law with a $5 fine.

    Want to know a really good way to get people to wear seatbelts? Pass a law with a $250 fine.

    There is no good argument for not wearing a seatbelt. None. This is a $250 limited scope tax on the stupid.

    Bingo. If one in a hundred people ticket without seatbelts dies in a horrible accident, the fees still won't pay for the loss to society as a whole.

    Apogee on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.

    Actually, it is the state's job. That is kind of what the state does. We have a society where, if your brains are splattered on the freeway because you didn't wear a seatbelt, that damages me. Someone has to pay for the medical care to keep you alive as a vegetable and it probably won't be you. Somebody has to pay a guy with a shovel to collect your innards off the interstate. Somebody has to pay the cops overtime to control traffic because they have a traffic fatality.

    All that shit damages me, in varying degrees, so your right to be a moron and fuck with my taxes and traffic is pretty unimportant. "I have the right to risk massive social harm because I'm too much of a goddamn moron to wear my seatbelt!" is not a convincing argument.

    I hope the fine for not wearing a seatbelt increases. Increase it every year, tie it to inflation, its basically free money for everyone with a brain, that's pretty awesome because it either reduces traffic fatalities and associated costs or it taxes the stupid, which I'm completely ok with for the record.

    PotatoNinja on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    And your example is outrageous and just another way for the states to bring money into their bank accounts. It's the perfect example of how retarded these fees are. 1200 for parking in handicap spot? Really? You don't think that's just a tiny bit retarded?

    No, I don't (and in this context, your phrasing is rather offensive.) See, I drive my grandparents around, who have limited mobility. Because of that, I have a handicapped placard I use when I'm driving them, because being able to park near the store is good for them. When chucklefucks like you park in the handicapped spots without authorization, that means I can't park there when I'm transpotring them, which makes their life harder. So no, I don't have a problem with high fines for illegally parking in a handicapped parking spot, because the fucks who do it deserve every penny.
    Edit: Fuck that. Fuck seatbelt laws and fuck helmet laws. I agree with Derek. If you want to risk it, you should be allowed to. For the record, I do wear my seat belt, but if the guy next to me wants to run the risk of it, fucking let them. It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.

    Except it's not just your well being. See, if you're not buckled in, you become a projectile, endangering all the other people in the car. So if you're not going to buckle yourself up, and I'm in the car with you, I'll buckle you up myself, because I'm not going to have your stupidity endangering me.

    AngelHedgie on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It's not my job to police their well being, and it's not the state's either.

    Actually, it is the state's job. That is kind of what the state does. We have a society where, if your brains are splattered on the freeway because you didn't wear a seatbelt, that damages me. Someone has to pay for the medical care to keep you alive as a vegetable and it probably won't be you. Somebody has to pay a guy with a shovel to collect your innards off the interstate. Somebody has to pay the cops overtime to control traffic because they have a traffic fatality.

    Not to mention the traffic jam it causes, a slight cost applied to a huge number of people.

    KalTorak on
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    NerissaNerissa Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I was under the impression that cops can't/don't pull you over for "suspicion of not wearing a seat belt," since you can't tell from their driving like with intoxication. If they pull you over and notice you're not wearing a seatbelt, then it gets tacked on. Or they have those stops where they stop everyone and check, in which case I assume they're just looking for the Joker who escaped from Arkham a half hour ago.

    Depends on the state -- some places they can pull you over for it if they notice (say they are stopped at a red light in the lane next to you and look at you), others they can't.

    Nerissa on
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    The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Nerissa wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I was under the impression that cops can't/don't pull you over for "suspicion of not wearing a seat belt," since you can't tell from their driving like with intoxication. If they pull you over and notice you're not wearing a seatbelt, then it gets tacked on. Or they have those stops where they stop everyone and check, in which case I assume they're just looking for the Joker who escaped from Arkham a half hour ago.

    Depends on the state -- some places they can pull you over for it if they notice (say they are stopped at a red light in the lane next to you and look at you), others they can't.

    Most states (I believe?) show this as a "secondary violation", i.e. something they can nail you for if they catch you breaking a bigger,badder law.

    The Crowing One on
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