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Roman Polanski: he made a thriller

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    Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    fortis wrote: »
    After reading into this, I'm not sure what putting him in jail for the rest of his life accomplishes.

    Telling people that no matter how much money you got or how far you run or for how long. As a fugitive the US will not stop until it sees justice done.

    So why has the US been sitting on it's fucking ass for 30 years?

    All the fugitives must be shitting themselves eh.

    It's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with the French.

    Which makes it a problem of the US.

    No it makes it a problem with the French

    Me Too! on
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    Ed321Ed321 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    did the french grant him citizenship as well?

    He was a French citizen already; he was born in Paris.

    Ah this explains the French response then, I suppose.

    Ed321 on
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    RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    lol, William C. Rogers III

    Robman on
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    fortis wrote: »
    After reading into this, I'm not sure what putting him in jail for the rest of his life accomplishes.

    Telling people that no matter how much money you got or how far you run or for how long. As a fugitive the US will not stop until it sees justice done.

    So why has the US been sitting on it's fucking ass for 30 years?

    All the fugitives must be shitting themselves eh.

    It's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with the French.

    Which makes it a problem of the US.

    Stop being such a Tool.

    Kipling217 on
    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, it's a matter of extradition. France, much like the US, won't extradite one of it's own citizens convicted or accused of a crime in another country.

    EDIT: Within reason, of course.

    Hacksaw on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    So it's GREAT that this case is still being pursued even to the detriment of the person raped.
    Yes. Trials and the justice system do not exist solely for the victims.

    Because yes a man who hasn't been on US shores since the great PONG craze is important to our justice system.
    Then you'll say 'oh so criminals can just leave the US and we shouldn't try to catch them' to which I'll say 'dude it was 30 years ago and no one else has accused him of shit' to which you'll say 'oh good everyone gets a free rape card as long as they don't do it again' to which I'll say 'show me any evidence that he is someone who is likely to re-offend or has not suffered some punishment for the incident and in fact the media frenzy over this IS something that should be taken into account when talking about this specific case is it doing anyone any good to have this stupid shit go on for so long?' That's as far ahead as I've got please take up the argument from this point.

    Why are we always unwilling to forgive people for crimes they committed long ago in the past. Why can't we just let it go. Looking forward, not back.
    Not to Godwin the thread, but do you feel the same way about Nazi war criminals currently in hiding?

    If these war criminals have since moved on with their lives and become generally decent people, then yes.

    Wow. That's quite something alright. Gas millions of people to death, run away and if you run away long enough, everything is peachy-keen.

    reVerse on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    Utilitarian viewpoint: Even if he is not likely to reoffend, must show that a person cannot simply avoid punishment by fleeing. Punishment needs to be as certain as possible.

    Retributive viewpoint: Not being able to go to many countries is obviously not proportionate to the crime.

    This. The most important point here is that this is well beyond the victim now.
    Couscous wrote: »
    No, the media being the media in celebrity cases can actually be a good thing now and again but I feel when the victim publicly says that she has continued to be traumatized for thirty years because of this case maybe we could just settle with a permanent exile of Polanski from US shores and let it go.

    That is not a fucking punishment.

    An exile from US shores and anywhere that there's possibility of extradition might count as punishment. Maybe. But it's not like the guy has been hiding in Uganda or Venezuela. He's been in France, while winning fucking Oscars.

    Punishment my ass.

    And I'll jump on the "why haven't we cock-slapped France for not extraditing him" boat, too.
    Ah this explains the French response then, I suppose.

    It doesn't, though. Unless the French are okay with rape, as long as it's one of their own citizens.

    EDIT: It'd be different if he were in a French jail this whole time.

    mcdermott on
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    Mazer RackhamMazer Rackham __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    fortis wrote: »
    After reading into this, I'm not sure what putting him in jail for the rest of his life accomplishes.

    Telling people that no matter how much money you got or how far you run or for how long. As a fugitive the US will not stop until it sees justice done.

    So why has the US been sitting on it's fucking ass for 30 years?

    All the fugitives must be shitting themselves eh.

    It's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with the French.

    Which makes it a problem of the US.

    Except... not. The French have been sitting in the way of justice. The problem is all about them.

    Sure.

    So the US will not stop hunting fugitives, unless someone else stops them first.

    This arrest won't accomplish a damn thing.

    Mazer Rackham on
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    Ed321Ed321 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I actually thought he was a Hungarian citizen. Don't know where I got that from.

    Ed321 on
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    Mazer RackhamMazer Rackham __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    So it's GREAT that this case is still being pursued even to the detriment of the person raped.
    Yes. Trials and the justice system do not exist solely for the victims.

    Because yes a man who hasn't been on US shores since the great PONG craze is important to our justice system.
    Then you'll say 'oh so criminals can just leave the US and we shouldn't try to catch them' to which I'll say 'dude it was 30 years ago and no one else has accused him of shit' to which you'll say 'oh good everyone gets a free rape card as long as they don't do it again' to which I'll say 'show me any evidence that he is someone who is likely to re-offend or has not suffered some punishment for the incident and in fact the media frenzy over this IS something that should be taken into account when talking about this specific case is it doing anyone any good to have this stupid shit go on for so long?' That's as far ahead as I've got please take up the argument from this point.

    Why are we always unwilling to forgive people for crimes they committed long ago in the past. Why can't we just let it go. Looking forward, not back.
    Not to Godwin the thread, but do you feel the same way about Nazi war criminals currently in hiding?

    If these war criminals have since moved on with their lives and become generally decent people, then yes.

    Wow. That's quite something alright. Gas millions of people to death, run away and if you run away long enough, everything is peachy-keen.

    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Mazer Rackham on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So the US will not stop hunting fugitives, unless someone else stops them first.

    Yeah, imagine that, the US can't storm into a foreign nation and kidnap its citizens, even if that citizen has committed a crime. It's almost like there are some sort of laws and diplomacy going on.
    This arrest won't accomplish a damn thing.

    Justice.

    reVerse on
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    Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    fortis wrote: »
    After reading into this, I'm not sure what putting him in jail for the rest of his life accomplishes.

    Telling people that no matter how much money you got or how far you run or for how long. As a fugitive the US will not stop until it sees justice done.

    So why has the US been sitting on it's fucking ass for 30 years?

    All the fugitives must be shitting themselves eh.

    It's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with the French.

    Which makes it a problem of the US.

    Except... not. The French have been sitting in the way of justice. The problem is all about them.

    Sure.

    So the US will not stop hunting fugitives, unless someone else stops them first.

    This arrest won't accomplish a damn thing.

    You know how extradition works right

    Me Too! on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    So it's GREAT that this case is still being pursued even to the detriment of the person raped.
    Yes. Trials and the justice system do not exist solely for the victims.

    Because yes a man who hasn't been on US shores since the great PONG craze is important to our justice system.
    Then you'll say 'oh so criminals can just leave the US and we shouldn't try to catch them' to which I'll say 'dude it was 30 years ago and no one else has accused him of shit' to which you'll say 'oh good everyone gets a free rape card as long as they don't do it again' to which I'll say 'show me any evidence that he is someone who is likely to re-offend or has not suffered some punishment for the incident and in fact the media frenzy over this IS something that should be taken into account when talking about this specific case is it doing anyone any good to have this stupid shit go on for so long?' That's as far ahead as I've got please take up the argument from this point.

    Why are we always unwilling to forgive people for crimes they committed long ago in the past. Why can't we just let it go. Looking forward, not back.
    Not to Godwin the thread, but do you feel the same way about Nazi war criminals currently in hiding?

    If these war criminals have since moved on with their lives and become generally decent people, then yes.

    Wow. That's quite something alright. Gas millions of people to death, run away and if you run away long enough, everything is peachy-keen.

    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    The harm has already been done and that will not be forgotten or forgiven just because the person starts up a Happy Puppies And Kittens Playground.

    reVerse on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Obama should call a press conference tomorrow and announce "After he spent years on the run from American justice, a predator missile has taken out the most wanted individual in the world, Roman Polanski. AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!"

    That would be sweet.

    Hoz on
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    Ed321Ed321 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Utilitarian viewpoint: Even if he is not likely to reoffend, must show that a person cannot simply avoid punishment by fleeing. Punishment needs to be as certain as possible.

    Retributive viewpoint: Not being able to go to many countries is obviously not proportionate to the crime.

    This. The most important point here is that this is well beyond the victim now.
    Couscous wrote: »
    No, the media being the media in celebrity cases can actually be a good thing now and again but I feel when the victim publicly says that she has continued to be traumatized for thirty years because of this case maybe we could just settle with a permanent exile of Polanski from US shores and let it go.

    That is not a fucking punishment.

    An exile from US shores and anywhere that there's possibility of extradition might count as punishment. Maybe. But it's not like the guy has been hiding in Uganda or Venezuela. He's been in France, while winning fucking Oscars.

    Punishment my ass.

    And I'll jump on the "why haven't we cock-slapped France for not extraditing him" boat, too.

    I can sympathize with them (the gov't, I mean). For all we know it might be widely believed over there that he's an innocent man. Look at how Mumia Abu-Jamal is viewed, for example. I mean it's not really an excuse for coddling a rapist, but I can see how it would be political suicide.

    Ed321 on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.

    mcdermott on
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    RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.

    He harmed the shit out of... oh dear.

    Robman on
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    Ed321Ed321 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Is that supposed to be blank?

    edit: oops

    Ed321 on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.
    preacherissue48page14of.jpg

    edit: sorry Ed, screwed up the link on the first one.

    KalTorak on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    fortis wrote: »
    After reading into this, I'm not sure what putting him in jail for the rest of his life accomplishes.

    Telling people that no matter how much money you got or how far you run or for how long. As a fugitive the US will not stop until it sees justice done.

    So why has the US been sitting on it's fucking ass for 30 years?

    All the fugitives must be shitting themselves eh.

    It's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with the French.

    Which makes it a problem of the US.

    Except... not. The French have been sitting in the way of justice. The problem is all about them.

    Sure.

    So the US will not stop hunting fugitives, unless someone else stops them first.

    This arrest won't accomplish a damn thing.

    The US, like France and everyone else, can't just go 'hunting' criminals in other countries. It's against the law. Short of deciding to invade a nation, this means that foreign law enforcement and extradition are how nations get ahold of criminals that flee to other countries.

    That France was unwilling to ship a child rapist and felon off to face justice doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen when someone catches him who will, nor does it put the onus on the US for France's inaction.

    Ego on
    Erik
  • Options
    ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.
    preacherissue48page14of.jpg

    edit: sorry Ed, screwed up the link on the first one.
    Yeah, and that was one of the bits that made me hate Preacher. I'm okay with raising the question whether there are some acts that are beyond redemption or forgiveness (in fact, I think it's an important question that needs to be asked); I'm much less okay with the self-righteous assertion by any human being that there are such acts and that they know what these acts are.

    Thirith on
    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thirith wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.
    preacherissue48page14of.jpg

    edit: sorry Ed, screwed up the link on the first one.

    Yeah, and that was one of the bits that made me hate Preacher. I'm okay with raising the question whether there are some acts that are beyond redemption or forgiveness (in fact, I think it's an important question that needs to be asked); I'm much less okay with the self-righteous assertion by any human being that there are such acts and that they know what these acts are.

    Wait...are we saying that my statement was unreasonable?

    What part of "flagrantly avoiding your sentence for a crime causes harm to the society that imposed that sentence" is controversial?

    mcdermott on
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    ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Wait...are we saying that my statement was unreasonable?

    What part of "flagrantly avoiding your sentence for a crime causes harm to the society that imposed that sentence" is controversial?
    No, my comment was about the Preacher page that was quoted. However, I honestly don't see people who committed a crime 32 years ago now living in another country and thereby avoiding their sentence as causing all that much harm to US society. Less so than former US presidents and current generals and other commanding officers pretty much getting a free pass for much of what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. IMO that causes more harm to the society that imposed the sentence we're talking about.

    But I'm aware that I'm getting dangerously close to pulling a Godwin here. Perhaps I should accept that I'm probably wrong on this and pull out of the discussion.

    Thirith on
    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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    SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    You missed the part about moving on and becoming a decent person, never to harm society again.

    Except that openly and flagrantly avoiding his sentence harmed society.

    Dude was harming society last week.

    I don't know a lot about his sex crime stuff - but ninth gate was so bad it had to at least qualify as a misdemeanor.

    Speaker on
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    RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    If your argument involves you quoting a comic book, there might be some inherent weaknesses you should address

    Robman on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thirith wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Wait...are we saying that my statement was unreasonable?

    What part of "flagrantly avoiding your sentence for a crime causes harm to the society that imposed that sentence" is controversial?

    No, my comment was about the Preacher page that was quoted.

    Ah. Cool.

    I'm not even familiar with that comic.
    I don't know a lot about his sex crime stuff - but ninth gate was so bad it had to at least qualify as a misdemeanor.

    Man, I just watched that movie not long ago (I apparently missed it when it came out). Felony, easy.

    mcdermott on
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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Hoz wrote: »
    Obama should call a press conference tomorrow and announce "After he spent years on the run from American justice, a predator missile has taken out the most wanted individual in the world, Roman Polanski. AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!"

    That would be sweet.

    Man, I voted for him so I could avoid this kind of crap.

    That being said, I am in favor of prosecuting Polanski, but I understand that extradition is usually tricky. Especially when you have multiple countries that have impassioned histories of saying, "Yes, we know you 'claim' he 'murdered' someone in your 'country' with an 'ice pick' and 'sodomized' him with a 'bowling pin', but you understand we can't just let you persecute one of our own. Mkay?"

    It's a tendency that makes things more difficult. This'll have to be sorted out.

    Synthesis on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Thirith wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Wait...are we saying that my statement was unreasonable?

    What part of "flagrantly avoiding your sentence for a crime causes harm to the society that imposed that sentence" is controversial?

    No, my comment was about the Preacher page that was quoted.

    Ah. Cool.

    I'm not even familiar with that comic.

    Yeah, I was agreeing with you.

    In the comic, the grey-haired guy is a former Nazi who worked in the camps and escaped to Texas after the war, and hasn't harmed society since.

    KalTorak on
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    Phil G.Phil G. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Why should Roman Polanski be arrested, tried, sentenced?

    Precedent

    Phil G. on
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    AroducAroduc regular
    edited September 2009
    Unless I'm mistaken (which is easily possible), France, like many countries, will only extradite its citizens if the charge is murder. I don't agree with that, but I don't believe (and again, could be mistaken) that they're making a special case for him either.

    Aroduc on
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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Phil G. wrote: »
    Why should Roman Polanski be arrested, tried, sentenced?

    Precedent

    Precedent in the legal sense is purely judicial. This is an enforcement issue. "Precedent" only applies in the colloquial sense of "setting a good/bad example."

    Hachface on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Unless I'm mistaken (which is easily possible), France, like many countries, will only extradite its citizens if the charge is murder. I don't agree with that, but I don't believe (and again, could be mistaken) that they're making a special case for him either.

    You're mistaken, though many countries will not extradite criminals who will face execution for their crimes.

    Ego on
    Erik
  • Options
    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Ego wrote: »
    The US, like France and everyone else, can't just go 'hunting' criminals in other countries. It's against the law. Short of deciding to invade a nation, this means that foreign law enforcement and extradition are how nations get ahold of criminals that flee to other countries.

    Typically, foreign courts having jurisdiction over your citizens and territory has been the hallmark of being a non-sovereign puppet, and the idea of cedeing that authority was strenuously resisted by any state with the wherewithal to fight back: see pre-Communist China, the Austrian demands on Serbia before WW1, and the Russian demands on the Ottoman Empire prompting the Crimean War.

    MrMister on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    rm5ct.jpg

    Can't believe it hasn't been posted yet

    joshofalltrades on
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Woah read the CBSNEWS report on this story:

    The Swiss Directors Association sharply criticized authorities for what it deemed "not only a grotesque farce of justice, but also an immense cultural scandal."

    Well, A cultural scandal! Can't have that, now can we.

    Kipling217 on
    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Woah read the CBSNEWS report on this story:

    The Swiss Directors Association sharply criticized authorities for what it deemed "not only a grotesque farce of justice, but also an immense cultural scandal."

    Well, A cultural scandal! Can't have that, now can we.

    How dare they arrest a wanted criminal!

    joshofalltrades on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm not particularly impressed by all the raging about the sanctity of the judicial system and crap in this thread. Considering all the people who should be in jail but aren't (politicians, policemen, rich people, etc) and all the people who are in jail but shouldn't not to mention all the other stupid bullshit in our criminal code like Megan's Laws, I for one do not have enough respect left for our judicial system to give a damn.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    I think we should invade France, make sure people KNOW you can't run from US law.
    I mean, they'd surrender anyway.

    I can see an argument for making it illegal to shove the cameras in the faces of random people who were raped 30 years ago and making their lives hell though

    override367 on
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    Phil G.Phil G. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Phil G. wrote: »
    Why should Roman Polanski be arrested, tried, sentenced?

    Precedent

    Precedent in the legal sense is purely judicial. This is an enforcement issue. "Precedent" only applies in the colloquial sense of "setting a good/bad example."

    Ah, my bad. There was a reason I dropped law in high school.

    Phil G. on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    MrMister wrote: »
    Ego wrote: »
    The US, like France and everyone else, can't just go 'hunting' criminals in other countries. It's against the law. Short of deciding to invade a nation, this means that foreign law enforcement and extradition are how nations get ahold of criminals that flee to other countries.

    Typically, foreign courts having jurisdiction over your citizens and territory has been the hallmark of being a non-sovereign puppet, and the idea of cedeing that authority was strenuously resisted by any state with the wherewithal to fight back: see pre-Communist China, the Austrian demands on Serbia before WW1, and the Russian demands on the Ottoman Empire prompting the Crimean War.

    Right, which is why we use diplomacy like extraction treaties when France/the US/Canada have criminals on their soil that need to go to the places they commited their crimes to face the justice system. I think you're agreeing with me, I'm just making sure.

    Ego on
    Erik
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