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Roman Polanski: he made a thriller

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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Ego wrote: »
    Come on Ross, you're making the outrageous claim that deterrence doesn't help prevent crime. Let's have some evidence.

    No, I'm making the claim that in this specific instance Polanski's non-apprehension doesn't provide any more deterrence than is already present.

    I'm not actually sure where you're taking this claim. "this specific instance" has absolutely no meaning as far as our justice system is concerned. The law is not meted out on an individual basis. Laws, ideally, apply to everyone. Even if extraditing Polanski specifically had no direct effect on deterring or upholding the utility of the population or whatever, it would not matter, because the way our justice system works (again, ideally) is that it is applied to everyone no matter their circumstance. You don't get to rape a girl even if we had psychic powers and could tell that you would never rape again and would eventually become a wealthy humanitarian/superhero that raises kittens for orphans.

    If you want to argue that this is the way our system shouldn't work, then this is not the thread to do that.

    This isn't how our justice system works. There are all sorts of places where the criminal system has built in mechanisms to allow real humans like judges and prosecutors and jurors to make decisions based on the circumstances of the individual case. In the rare circumstances where we do apply criminal law in THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME FOR EVERYBODY, it tends not to work very well.

    Yeah, except the Judges and Prosecutors are the ones that get to make those decisions, not the Defendant.

    Bionic Monkey on
    sig_megas_armed.jpg
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I'm sure our criminal system's feelings must be hurt, yes

    Honestly I don't understand what you're trying to do here, except be a dick.

    I am making hyperbolic statements in an attempt to illustrate how silly it is to claim that the criminal justice system is a proxy for your personal feelings about a case

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Ego wrote: »
    Come on Ross, you're making the outrageous claim that deterrence doesn't help prevent crime. Let's have some evidence.

    No, I'm making the claim that in this specific instance Polanski's non-apprehension doesn't provide any more deterrence than is already present.

    I'm not actually sure where you're taking this claim. "this specific instance" has absolutely no meaning as far as our justice system is concerned. The law is not meted out on an individual basis. Laws, ideally, apply to everyone. Even if extraditing Polanski specifically had no direct effect on deterring or upholding the utility of the population or whatever, it would not matter, because the way our justice system works (again, ideally) is that it is applied to everyone no matter their circumstance. You don't get to rape a girl even if we had psychic powers and could tell that you would never rape again and would eventually become a wealthy humanitarian/superhero that raises kittens for orphans.

    If you want to argue that this is the way our system shouldn't work, then this is not the thread to do that.

    This isn't how our justice system works. There are all sorts of places where the criminal system has built in mechanisms to allow real humans like judges and prosecutors and jurors to make decisions based on the circumstances of the individual case. In the rare circumstances where we do apply criminal law in THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME FOR EVERYBODY, it tends not to work very well.

    Yeah, except the Judges and Prosecutors are the ones that get to make those decisions, not the Defendant.

    since he's not extraditing himself, I think we're on safe ground here

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I'm sure our criminal system's feelings must be hurt, yes

    Honestly I don't understand what you're trying to do here, except be a dick.

    I am making hyperbolic statements in an attempt to illustrate how silly it is to claim that the criminal justice system is a proxy for your personal feelings about a case

    Like your personal feelings that there's no point in extraditing convicted child rapists if they don't plan to come back to America?

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I'm not against extradition as a practice, I'm against extraditing polanski because I don't think it accomplishes anything.

    Then what makes it useful in other cases?

    If restitution was at issue, or if the extraditing country feared that the criminal might return to re-offend? There are probably a bunch of situations where it's useful, which is why it exists.

    He never came back to America because he would have been arrested.

    you wanted to know in what situations I thought extradition was useful, and I told you. It's not as though it's impossible to enter the United States without the knowledge of the federal government.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I'm sure our criminal system's feelings must be hurt, yes

    Honestly I don't understand what you're trying to do here, except be a dick.

    I am making hyperbolic statements in an attempt to illustrate how silly it is to claim that the criminal justice system is a proxy for your personal feelings about a case

    I was talking about my personal feelings, yes. Hence the "I think" part of the sentence.

    I think part of the goal of our system is holding people accountable for their actions and I don't think letting someone continue to avoid answering for his crime, when we have the ability to bring him back to answer for it, furthers that goal at all.

    So It Goes on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    you wanted to know in what situations I thought extradition was useful, and I told you. It's not as though it's impossible to enter the United States without the knowledge of the federal government.

    Then there's no point in extraditing period. That's why we extradite people. Because they aren't in America.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    quid, I just gave you two examples of situations that would warrant extradition. I don't know what you're getting at, at this point

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    quid, I just gave you two examples of situations that would warrant extradition. I don't know what you're getting at, at this point

    Because you're saying there's no point in extraditing child rapists so long as they don't come back to America.

    So basically, any French person, or at least a rich one, would be able to come to America, sleep with minors, ad if caught simply post bail, fly back to France, and never come back. And based on your logic there would be no point in extraditing them from any other country given the chance.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    if there was an epidemic of rich french pedophiles coming to america to prey on children I think some remedy including extradition would probably be appropriate, yes.

    but we don't have that extreme hypothetical situation so I'm not sure why we're talking about it

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Ah, so we'll only extradite French pedophiles that rape American children when Dyscord says enough of them are doing it. Makes sense.

    Quid on
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    SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    if there was an epidemic of rich french pedophiles coming to america to prey on children I think some remedy including extradition would probably be appropriate, yes.

    but we don't have that extreme hypothetical situation so I'm not sure why we're talking about it

    How much is enough?

    In my opinion, one.

    SkyGheNe on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Ah, so we'll only extradite French pedophiles that rape American children when Dyscord says enough of them are doing it. Makes sense.

    are you going to continue not addressing the point I'm arguing, then?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Ah, so we'll only extradite French pedophiles that rape American children when Dyscord says enough of them are doing it. Makes sense.

    are you going to continue not addressing the point I'm arguing, then?

    Are you going to tell us when we're supposed to start extraditing pedophiles?

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Ah, so we'll only extradite French pedophiles that rape American children when Dyscord says enough of them are doing it. Makes sense.

    are you going to continue not addressing the point I'm arguing, then?

    Are you going to tell us when we're supposed to start extraditing pedophiles?

    when it's beneficial for society to do so

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Are you going to tell us when we're supposed to start extraditing pedophiles?

    I vote for "when it serves any measurable purpose." Which, other than Aegis and myself, no one has offered anything of substance to that argument.

    Atomika on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    I don't think government should do a lot of things that don't provide any benefit

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    From France? No.

    Atomika on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    From France? No.

    Do you read posts? Ever?

    Go read the posts.

    Quid on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    I don't think government should do a lot of things that don't provide any benefit

    So you don't think there's any benefit to extraditing pedophiles?

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    So you don't think French pedophiles should be extradited. Interesting.

    I don't think government should do a lot of things that don't provide any benefit

    So you don't think there's any benefit to extraditing pedophiles?

    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    What makes Polanski's case any different from any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution?

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    What makes Polanski's case any different from any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution?

    that we have no reason to extradite him? Potentially, I mean. There may be other fugitives who we also have no reason to pursue.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    But don't you see? Polanski's non-extradition will set up a whole new industry of Franco-American child-rape tourism! Because of "teh deterrences!" Despite the fact it never caught on in the 30 years he was at-large!

    Deterrence!

    Atomika on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    What makes Polanski's case any different from any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution?

    that we have no reason to extradite him? Potentially, I mean. There may be other fugitives who we also have no reason to pursue.

    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    What makes Polanski's case any different from any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution?

    that we have no reason to extradite him? Potentially, I mean. There may be other fugitives who we also have no reason to pursue.

    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    I already gave you some reasons that I think extradition should exist

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    That's what we're saying, guy.

    Atomika on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I already gave you some reasons that I think extradition should exist

    Again, why should any pedophile be extradited then? They left in the first place to avoid facing the consequences of their actions, what makes you think any of them before this should be extradited at all then?

    As far as restitution goes, you do not get to pay a large sum of money to get to commit felonies.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I mean, you can construct some hypothetical future wherein it is beneficial for the United States to pursue and extradite every criminal that flees it's borders. That is not the situation we have right now however, and frankly it's pretty hard to see how it ever would be.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    That's what we're saying, guy.

    Yes I get that you are okay with people being able to come to America to rape children so long as they leave afterward and never come back. It's pretty disgusting that you think that.

    Quid on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    As far as restitution goes, you do not get to pay a large sum of money to get to commit felonies.

    Though somehow judges still hand it down as part of sentencing.

    Atomika on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    But don't you see? Polanski's non-extradition will set up a whole new industry of Franco-American child-rape tourism! Because of "teh deterrences!" Despite the fact it never caught on in the 30 years he was at-large!

    Deterrence!

    That's pretty weak even as far as a strawman goes.

    Is this is as close as you can come to proving that deterrence doesn't work?

    Ego on
    Erik
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    As far as restitution goes, you do not get to pay a large sum of money to get to commit felonies.

    Though somehow judges still hand it down as part of sentencing.

    Yes, the judges, not the perpetrators. Those are different people. Don't be stupid.

    Quid on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I already gave you some reasons that I think extradition should exist

    Again, why should any pedophile be extradited then? They left in the first place to avoid facing the consequences of their actions, what makes you think any of them before this should be extradited at all then?

    As far as restitution goes, you do not get to pay a large sum of money to get to commit felonies.

    Restitution is often part of criminal sentencing. That's not a value judgment, I'm just saying that it would be a reason extradition would be necessary.

    I have already said that I don't think that a hypothetical criminal who flees the country necessarily needs to be pursued if that criminal cannot feasibly return.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    That's what we're saying, guy.

    Yes I get that you are okay with people being able to come to America to rape children so long as they leave afterward and never come back. It's pretty disgusting that you think that.

    How far can you see from that highground you had to manufacture to make a point?

    Can you see my house?

    Atomika on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Restitution is often part of criminal sentencing. That's not a value judgment, I'm just saying that it would be a reason extradition would be necessary.
    So you think criminals should get to decide their restitution?

    Cause I'd say a judge is better equipped for that.
    I have already said that I don't think that a hypothetical criminal who flees the country necessarily needs to be pursued if that criminal cannot feasibly return.

    What is not feasible about returning Polanski?

    Quid on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    How far can you see from that highground you had to manufacture to make a point?

    Can you see my house?

    Whenever you decide to post in a non idiotic fashion I'll give you non idiotic replies. Though I guess I'll save us all the trouble of waiting for that feat and stop responding to you.

    Quid on
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    SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    What reason do we have to extradite any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution? It's not like they're coming back. They fled because of what would happen if they were here.

    That's what we're saying, guy.

    Yes I get that you are okay with people being able to come to America to rape children so long as they leave afterward and never come back. It's pretty disgusting that you think that.

    How far can you see from that highground you had to manufacture to make a point?

    Can you see my house?

    I think he's got a pretty goddamn good point.

    SkyGheNe on
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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I don't think there's any benefit to extraditing roman polanski

    if you want to talk about a hypothetical invasion of french pedophiles, you should probably start a new thread

    it will be like that zombie survival thread from a while ago

    What makes Polanski's case any different from any other pedophile that's fled America to avoid prosecution?

    He's like... old now, man. And it was sooooo long ago. It's like, who cares? You know?

    Bionic Monkey on
    sig_megas_armed.jpg
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