Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
Either way more options always equals better. I don't see any reason to disregard 360 pad support. The AI issue I don't understand yet since I haven't seen it in action.
That's not the point. Thing is, on the PC you can zoom up to a tactical view that's just like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (the PC versions), pause the game, issue specific orders to each party member using the mouse, like in a RTS game, and then unpause and watch. A pad would not work well with that, it's not suited at all to that scheme. That's why console version has only over-the-shoulder view, you can control only one party member at a time, and the other dudes will need to act on their own.
Yeah it is buddy. All it takes are options like in The Witcher. Toggle over the shoulder normal movement or toggle RTS command and view. Its been done already sorta. I don't think that game had 360 pad support though.
You guys gotta stop with this "but its suppose to be like Baulders Gate nyahhh!" shtick.
The Witcher did have support for the pad, at least, that's what I've been told.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
I don't see a reason to be unhappy, personally. Shale is also not a blatant money grab. From what I understand, Shale was cut content until the game got delayed six months to coincide with the console release. The Live team, who liked Shale, had an opportunity to finish him and put him back in the game. Dragon Age was content locked at that point so they had to offer it as DLC. And since I'm buying the game on day one, I get him for free.
Because the Digital Deluxe edition misses out on a lot the physical items of the Collector's Edition, they're giving away Warden's Keep for free to make up for those losses. That sounds like a good deal for people who want to go the digital route.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
I agree on principle, but having never resold any game ever, and having a pretty low opinion of the current used market for videogames, I don't really care.
Edit: Plus, frankly, it is possible to resell the entire thing. Just include a fiver for the DLC.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
Hopefully, some day, there will be a version that collects everything. Over time, the DLC is going to become harder to legally come by. I am talking far future here. Still, it will be in the abandonware category by then.
I agree on principle, but having never resold any game ever, and having a pretty low opinion of the current used market for videogames, I don't really care.
Edit: Plus, frankly, it is possible to resell the entire thing. Just include a fiver for the DLC.
If Chevrolet told me I can't resell my car with the radio, and that if I want to resell the whole thing "just include a hundred bucks* for the radio" it would sound fucking ridiculous. Because it is.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
To be fair, they're not placing any restriction on your ability to re-sell the game. The content on the disc is $60 (since we're talking console, I assume), and when you eventually resell it, the content on the disc will remain unchanged. The only difference is that the small, redeemable bonus you got on purchase will no longer be part of the package.
Even if we ignore free DLC for new stuff, this has been the case with all DLC for a long time. I've bought games, purchased DLC, and then eventually sold the games with no ability to transfer the additional content I have purchased, and while that kind sucks, it just goes with the territory and makes console games more like PC games have been for decades.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
To be fair, they're not placing any restriction on your ability to re-sell the game. The content on the disc is $60 (since we're talking console, I assume), and when you eventually resell it, the content on the disc will remain unchanged. The only difference is that the small, redeemable bonus you got on purchase will no longer be part of the package.
Even if we ignore free DLC for new stuff, this has been the case with all DLC for a long time. I've bought games, purchased DLC, and then eventually sold the games with no ability to transfer the additional content I have purchased, and while that kind sucks, it just goes with the territory and makes console games more like PC games have been for decades.
The two problems with that are:
(a) The inability to resell or transfer ownership of DLC is a pretty clear violation of the doctrine of first sale in and of itself.
(b) The distinction between DLC which is free for new-purchasers and content on the disc is, at best, minimal. Would you be willing to write this off so readily if the "free DLC" was the last boss and ending? Game publishers have shown they are willing to ignore potential customers who don't have an internet connection, so such a thing is easily possible. Or, taking a perhaps less dire example - do you think someone who purchases the game used has a right to patches?
I don't care about people that buy or sell used games. I care about Bioware continuing to make games like Dragon Age. If DLC furthers that goal by discouraging the gamestore-as-pawnshop business model that cuts into developer's profits, that's fine by me.
I don't get what Clipse's second point has to do with Dragon Age, because such a thing does not occur with the game. Or maybe the conversation was just going off on a tangent? I'm half-awake so you'll excuse me if my perception is off.
(b) The distinction between DLC which is free for new-purchasers and content on the disc is, at best, minimal. Would you be willing to write this off so readily if the "free DLC" was the last boss and ending?
Like I said, Dragon Age is doing nothing of the sort, so I'm not willing to write off "this" so readily because "this" doesn't exist. Now that model would certainly suck if someone ever did that, and I'm also certain no one would ever try. It's far too extreme. You'd risk immense outrage by the fans. If the outcry is so loud over limited activations for a PC port of one title that the publisher actually rethinks its strategy, imagine how loud they'd be if you could only face the final boss through DLC.
It does have DLC, yes, but it's nothing so insidious. I already explained to you the details on why Shale and Warden's Keep exist a few pages up.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
There is no problem with the first sale doctrine because they gave you the information prior to the purchase.
If you bought the game thinking you can resale it and only to find you can't afterwards, then it would be a problem.
If you bought something and knew at the time you aren't allowed to resale it, then you contracted for an non-resalable product.
First, giving information prior to sale is not sufficient as far as I know. The case that established first sale doctrine was over a book publisher who declared no one could resell their books for less than $1. Second, to what extent are people actually informed? I'm lazy and working from memory here, but when I preordered on Amazon there was mention of the Shale DLC but I didn't see any explicit mention that it couldn't be resold. Naturally, being familiar with DLC I knew it couldn't, but I doubt it's reasonable to assume every consumer is as well informed.
And, grrarg - we get good movies, good music, and good books without having to infringe on consumer rights. Bioware is one of the few companies that shouldn't be worried about used game sales, in that their games are typically worth hanging on to forever.
Clipse on
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
I'll be honest. Polearms in general tend to get the shaft stat-wise, but fuck do I just want to whirl around with a halberd and do cool shit.
Anyway, a little LTTP. I saw the vids awhile back (when Commoner was still in), but to be honest combat looked a little slow/uninspired. Since I don't really care *that* much about casters, any more interesting details come out on what you can do in melee combat? Or is it just mostly hit things, press a button to stun/knockdown every now and again?
Alternatively, when can we expect to see info on Champion, Duelist, and Arcane Warrior?
Hrm, yeah. I dunno, the warrior/rogue article just isn't singing to me. I suppose I'll see how it actually plays, but I was hoping we'd advanced past the whole "toggle power attack, wade into battle" paradigm for warriors.
I don't get what Clipse's second point has to do with Dragon Age, because such a thing does not occur with the game. Or maybe the conversation was just going off on a tangent? I'm half-awake so you'll excuse me if my perception is off.
(b) The distinction between DLC which is free for new-purchasers and content on the disc is, at best, minimal. Would you be willing to write this off so readily if the "free DLC" was the last boss and ending?
Like I said, Dragon Age is doing nothing of the sort, so I'm not willing to write off "this" so readily because "this" doesn't exist. Now that model would certainly suck if someone ever did that, and I'm also certain no one would ever try. It's far too extreme. You'd risk immense outrage by the fans. If the outcry is so loud over limited activations for a PC port of one title that the publisher actually rethinks its strategy, imagine how loud they'd be if you could only face the final boss through DLC.
It does have DLC, yes, but it's nothing so insidious. I already explained to you the details on why Shale and Warden's Keep exist a few pages up.
I didn't say Dragon Age was doing such a thing, nor did I intend to imply it. Vincent Grayson suggested that the "free DLC" was acceptable because you could resell the content on the disc, and I was pointing out a way in which such a cop-out can -- and probably will at some future point -- lead to absurd situations.
Clipse on
0
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
I haven't really read up on the actual exploration aspect of the game, despite liking alot of the gameplay concepts. But is this game more like KOTOR (Large "areas", all story related, no real large side-quest areas.), Mass Effect (Lots of small side quest areas, lots of story related areas, no real replayability unless you really like the gameplay.), or Oblivion (Can dick around for hours at a time without even touching the storyline or a quest.)?
I ask, because this game will be a day one purchase for me if it's the latter, a purchase to be made later on if it's the former, and a "maybe" on a day one buy if it's the middle option. I'm tapped out on linear RPG's at the moment.
Really, games are getting too fragmented with all this DLC stuff. I would rather see a complete work. Hopefully, the content will be gathered onto disk, like with Oblivion.
Well, you might be waiting for awhile then as if they are attempting to emulate what they did with NWN1, they released a constant stream of purchasable content for several years. What is awesome, is that when they released the content - they also updated the toolset with all the new textures and content they created with the new DLC for free.
I can't wait to see what mods people will make with DAO toolset... Oh so excited! I'm definitely a fanboy. =(
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
To be fair, they're not placing any restriction on your ability to re-sell the game. The content on the disc is $60 (since we're talking console, I assume), and when you eventually resell it, the content on the disc will remain unchanged. The only difference is that the small, redeemable bonus you got on purchase will no longer be part of the package.
Even if we ignore free DLC for new stuff, this has been the case with all DLC for a long time. I've bought games, purchased DLC, and then eventually sold the games with no ability to transfer the additional content I have purchased, and while that kind sucks, it just goes with the territory and makes console games more like PC games have been for decades.
The two problems with that are:
(a) The inability to resell or transfer ownership of DLC is a pretty clear violation of the doctrine of first sale in and of itself.
(b) The distinction between DLC which is free for new-purchasers and content on the disc is, at best, minimal. Would you be willing to write this off so readily if the "free DLC" was the last boss and ending? Game publishers have shown they are willing to ignore potential customers who don't have an internet connection, so such a thing is easily possible. Or, taking a perhaps less dire example - do you think someone who purchases the game used has a right to patches?
I was going to write something more detailed, but fuck it. They can provide their product any way they want, and charge whatever they want for it, your rights aren't being violated. They aren't going to release the ending as DLC because that would just be dumb. People who buy the game used don't have a right to use patches, because noone has the right to use patches, they are provided at the company's discretion.
Basically, can people stop complaining about having to pay for things they think they have some sort of right to?
I haven't really read up on the actual exploration aspect of the game, despite liking alot of the gameplay concepts. But is this game more like KOTOR (Large "areas", all story related, no real large side-quest areas.), Mass Effect (Lots of small side quest areas, lots of story related areas, no real replayability unless you really like the gameplay.), or Oblivion (Can dick around for hours at a time without even touching the storyline or a quest.)?
I ask, because this game will be a day one purchase for me if it's the latter, a purchase to be made later on if it's the former, and a "maybe" on a day one buy if it's the middle option. I'm tapped out on linear RPG's at the moment.
None of the above?
The first few hours of the game are pretty linear I think, but then again there are six different origins so you have six different linear paths. After that, while I don't think it's as open-ended as Oblivion, the side quests are supposed to be much better (longer and more interesting I guess) than in Mass Effect.
I haven't really read up on the actual exploration aspect of the game, despite liking alot of the gameplay concepts. But is this game more like KOTOR (Large "areas", all story related, no real large side-quest areas.), Mass Effect (Lots of small side quest areas, lots of story related areas, no real replayability unless you really like the gameplay.), or Oblivion (Can dick around for hours at a time without even touching the storyline or a quest.)?
I ask, because this game will be a day one purchase for me if it's the latter, a purchase to be made later on if it's the former, and a "maybe" on a day one buy if it's the middle option. I'm tapped out on linear RPG's at the moment.
The lead designer estimated 80% of the game is non-linear in one of those interviews with Gamebanshee. From the awesome preview:
Many such scuffles will occur as random encounters while we travel across the overland map. This aspect of the game doesn’t open up until after you’ve finished your origin story and have become a Gray Warden, but from the small glimpse I was given, it looks quite promising. On the very first instance that I opened the world map, there were nine locations available for travel: Redcliffe Village, Redcliffe Castle, Lothering, Brecilian Outskirts, Denerim, Lake Calenhad Docks, Circle Tower, Frostback Mountains, and the Party Camp. There was plenty of blank parchment ready for uncovering and “to…” markers at the edges of the map, as well, which leads me to believe that there’s quite a bit of exploration to be done. Here’s to hoping that Mike Laidlaw’s analysis of 80% of the game being non-linear is spot-on.
I agree on principle, but having never resold any game ever, and having a pretty low opinion of the current used market for videogames, I don't really care.
Edit: Plus, frankly, it is possible to resell the entire thing. Just include a fiver for the DLC.
If Chevrolet told me I can't resell my car with the radio, and that if I want to resell the whole thing "just include a hundred bucks* for the radio" it would sound fucking ridiculous. Because it is.
* - I have no idea how much a car radio costs.
You buy a standard vehicle. The auto dealership offers to throw in a free set of leather seat covers and a matching leather wheel cover for buying new. These items cost $120 if sold separately.
When you go to trade your vehicle in, you're not getting the $120 that you didn't pay for the seat covers. They're a separate item that was only thrown in to sweeten the deal.
I was going to write something more detailed, but fuck it. They can provide their product any way they want, and charge whatever they want for it, your rights aren't being violated. They aren't going to release the ending as DLC because that would just be dumb. People who buy the game used don't have a right to use patches, because noone has the right to use patches, they are provided at the company's discretion.
First, the notion that a company selling a product is just free to do whatever the fuck they want is absurd. I'm not demanding they sell it at a certain price, I'm not demanding they sell it the way I want, I'm demanding that when I buy something it becomes mine. And, when something is mine, I have a right to transfer ownership as I see fit. Welcome to living in a civilized state; the government restricts what you can do. If you disagree, feel free to move to Somalia.
Moving on to the meat of the post. Releasing the ending as free DLC (which is released on the same day as the game) is dumb? We have companies that have restricted the number of times you can install a PC game that you have legally purchased. It is very hard to justify any infringement on resale rights as dumb in the face of such overwhelming disregard for consumer rights. Moreover, at least one game developer (Cliff Bleszinski, of Epic Games) has openly advocated doing this as an anti-used-game and anti-rental strategy. Moving on, when I said used game purchasers should have the right to patches I meant the patches which have already been released. Perhaps you should have written something more detailed, because what you wrote here seems either ill conceived or blatantly anti-consumer.
And, Fig-D : That doesn't really relate at all. I can still sell the car to a third party complete with leather seat covers. If the dealership says THEY won't pay for the leather seat covers when buying it back, that is perfectly within their rights.
On an unrelated note: If someone wants to start a thread (either on G&T or D&D) relating to this topic, I'll gladly participate, but I don't want to derail this thread any more than I already have. It's obvious this discussion has moved away from Dragon Age and on to the abstract concept of using DLC to abuse consumers, and as such it doesn't really belong here anymore.
And, Fig-D : That doesn't really relate at all. I can still sell the car to a third party complete with leather seat covers. If the dealership says THEY won't pay for the leather seat covers when buying it back, that is perfectly within their rights.
What I'm saying is that its an additional item, a bonus, separate from the item you were originally buying and can not be sold to a corporate third party (independent buyer like a friend or some guy on craig's list, yes, but most dealerships ask you to remove items like that before a trade in) much like the DLC could be sold to GameStop. The key here is that its NOT a part of the core $60 item that is being sold here, its icing on the cake.
And, grrarg - we get good movies, good music, and good books without having to infringe on consumer rights. Bioware is one of the few companies that shouldn't be worried about used game sales, in that their games are typically worth hanging on to forever.
Also, other media HAS done this as well. CDs have long been sold within online vouchers for bonus tracks and movies have done similar things as well.
And, Fig-D : That doesn't really relate at all. I can still sell the car to a third party complete with leather seat covers. If the dealership says THEY won't pay for the leather seat covers when buying it back, that is perfectly within their rights.
What I'm saying is that its an additional item, a bonus, separate from the item you were originally buying and can not be sold to a corporate third party (independent buyer like a friend or some guy on craig's list, yes, but most dealerships ask you to remove items like that before a trade in) much like the DLC could be sold to GameStop. The key here is that its NOT a part of the core $60 item that is being sold here, its icing on the cake.
And, grrarg - we get good movies, good music, and good books without having to infringe on consumer rights. Bioware is one of the few companies that shouldn't be worried about used game sales, in that their games are typically worth hanging on to forever.
Also, other media HAS done this as well. CDs have long been sold within online vouchers for bonus tracks and movies have done similar things as well.
Again, feel free to start a thread either in G&T or in D&D on the topic if you want to continue discussion. I won't give even this token response to any further consumer rights related posts in this thread. Sorry to pull a disappearance from the discussion in this thread, but I never intended my initial comment to be such a derailment.
I was really skeptical about this game at first. I thought it was going to be another simplistic good vs. evil, D&D/LotR retread. I have to say, it looks like my initial assumptions were wrong. There's no lame alignment system, elves and dwarves are actually races with interesting back-stories, the world seems complex and morally ambiguous, etc. The PA comics for the game are fucking great, too. If they fixed the party AI (the NWN2 AI made me want to put my fist through my monitor), I think this is going to suck up many hours of my life.
NWN2 was the previous Bioware fantasy RPG, right? I understand that this is a completely new engine and all, but the party AI can be really dodgy in most Bioware RPGs that I've played. It was particularly awful in NWN2.
NWN2 was the previous Bioware fantasy RPG, right? I understand that this is a completely new engine and all, but the party AI can be really dodgy in most Bioware RPGs that I've played. It was particularly awful in NWN2.
NWN2 was made by Obsidian, although it was built on the same engine (with upgrades, of course) as NWN1, which was made by Bioware.
I was really skeptical about this game at first. I thought it was going to be another simplistic good vs. evil, D&D/LotR retread. I have to say, it looks like my initial assumptions were wrong. There's no lame alignment system, elves and dwarves are actually races with interesting back-stories, the world seems complex and morally ambiguous, etc. The PA comics for the game are fucking great, too. If they fixed the party AI (the NWN2 AI made me want to put my fist through my monitor), I think this is going to suck up many hours of my life.
If it's anything like A Song of Ice and Fire, there really are no "good guys". There are just some that are less blatantly evil.
I was really skeptical about this game at first. I thought it was going to be another simplistic good vs. evil, D&D/LotR retread. I have to say, it looks like my initial assumptions were wrong. There's no lame alignment system, elves and dwarves are actually races with interesting back-stories, the world seems complex and morally ambiguous, etc. The PA comics for the game are fucking great, too. If they fixed the party AI (the NWN2 AI made me want to put my fist through my monitor), I think this is going to suck up many hours of my life.
If it's anything like A Song of Ice and Fire, there really are no "good guys". There are just some that are less blatantly evil.
Rape and incest mini-games smattered here and there?
I think the "big choice" that most intrigues me from the achievements list has got to be
The choice between backing the Templars or the Circle of Magi. It interests me because, knowing only the copious stuff I've read about the setting so far, I honestly think I'd back the Templars. They may be ruthless religious fanatics, but Mages are just too fucking dangerous to not be regulated to the high heavens. Any society that has to deal with the presence of people who are armed without carrying weapons, can shapeshift, and perform all sorts of impossible feats using only their mind (and are constantly under threat of influence from demons) has no realistic recourse but regulating with extreme prejudice.
Of course, it depends on the nature of the conflict that requires taking sides.
Either way more options always equals better. I don't see any reason to disregard 360 pad support. The AI issue I don't understand yet since I haven't seen it in action.
That's not the point. Thing is, on the PC you can zoom up to a tactical view that's just like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (the PC versions), pause the game, issue specific orders to each party member using the mouse, like in a RTS game, and then unpause and watch. A pad would not work well with that, it's not suited at all to that scheme. That's why console version has only over-the-shoulder view, you can control only one party member at a time, and the other dudes will need to act on their own.
Yeah it is buddy. All it takes are options like in The Witcher. Toggle over the shoulder normal movement or toggle RTS command and view. Its been done already sorta. I don't think that game had 360 pad support though.
You guys gotta stop with this "but its suppose to be like Baulders Gate nyahhh!" shtick.
You mean Witcher, that game that has ONE SINGLE player character and the combat is completely different in all senses from DAO? Yeah, great pick there buddy.
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The 360 version isn't gimped, they've tweaked the game to make for a more fun experience. If you like gamepad play, it'll be the better version.
Did we play the same NWN1? They released two traditional, disc-based expansions long before they started releasing piecemeal modules of smaller size.
Hunh. I didn't realize anyone used the gamepad for RPGs.
The Witcher did have support for the pad, at least, that's what I've been told.
And additionally, the "premium modules" had no impact whatsoever on the original and expansion campaigns.
The DLC pushing is the one thing about dragon age I'm really unhappy about - Shale is a blatant money grab (via killing the used market), and talking up the borderlands before the game is even released just makes it seem like they deliberately withheld it.
It sounds like the game is pretty long, so I'm not taking issue with beginning development on new content before release happens. And really, free DLC for new purchasers isn't exactly a new thing, it started happening with other titles earlier this generation, and it seems perfectly fair to me, although it has little effect on me.
If I like a game enough to be interested in buying it at launch, I get some extra free stuff...if I wasn't interested enough to buy it brand new, then a little bit of extra content isn't going to change my mind (as was the case with say, Gears of War 2)
I don't see a reason to be unhappy, personally. Shale is also not a blatant money grab. From what I understand, Shale was cut content until the game got delayed six months to coincide with the console release. The Live team, who liked Shale, had an opportunity to finish him and put him back in the game. Dragon Age was content locked at that point so they had to offer it as DLC. And since I'm buying the game on day one, I get him for free.
Because the Digital Deluxe edition misses out on a lot the physical items of the Collector's Edition, they're giving away Warden's Keep for free to make up for those losses. That sounds like a good deal for people who want to go the digital route.
I know this isn't the first game to feature DLC for new purchasers, but it artificially puts games in a category of their own; virtually anything else - including movies, music, books, etc.. - can be resold. Why the fuck should games be excluded from this? And really, that's what is happening here. If I buy Dragon Age, I can't resell the whole thing -- which seems a clear violation of the first sale doctrine to anyone still living in the world of the sane.
Obviously I sincerely hope dragon age will be good enough that I won't have any interest in reselling it; but artificially restricting me from doing so is a clear cut negative regardless.
Edit: Plus, frankly, it is possible to resell the entire thing. Just include a fiver for the DLC.
Hopefully, some day, there will be a version that collects everything. Over time, the DLC is going to become harder to legally come by. I am talking far future here. Still, it will be in the abandonware category by then.
If Chevrolet told me I can't resell my car with the radio, and that if I want to resell the whole thing "just include a hundred bucks* for the radio" it would sound fucking ridiculous. Because it is.
* - I have no idea how much a car radio costs.
To be fair, they're not placing any restriction on your ability to re-sell the game. The content on the disc is $60 (since we're talking console, I assume), and when you eventually resell it, the content on the disc will remain unchanged. The only difference is that the small, redeemable bonus you got on purchase will no longer be part of the package.
Even if we ignore free DLC for new stuff, this has been the case with all DLC for a long time. I've bought games, purchased DLC, and then eventually sold the games with no ability to transfer the additional content I have purchased, and while that kind sucks, it just goes with the territory and makes console games more like PC games have been for decades.
The two problems with that are:
(a) The inability to resell or transfer ownership of DLC is a pretty clear violation of the doctrine of first sale in and of itself.
(b) The distinction between DLC which is free for new-purchasers and content on the disc is, at best, minimal. Would you be willing to write this off so readily if the "free DLC" was the last boss and ending? Game publishers have shown they are willing to ignore potential customers who don't have an internet connection, so such a thing is easily possible. Or, taking a perhaps less dire example - do you think someone who purchases the game used has a right to patches?
If you bought the game thinking you can resale it and only to find you can't afterwards, then it would be a problem.
If you bought something and knew at the time you aren't allowed to resale it, then you contracted for an non-resalable product.
Heh, it's not quite forty of them, but yes I think you could say that.
Yeah, but it bristlles them like a fat lady.
Like I said, Dragon Age is doing nothing of the sort, so I'm not willing to write off "this" so readily because "this" doesn't exist. Now that model would certainly suck if someone ever did that, and I'm also certain no one would ever try. It's far too extreme. You'd risk immense outrage by the fans. If the outcry is so loud over limited activations for a PC port of one title that the publisher actually rethinks its strategy, imagine how loud they'd be if you could only face the final boss through DLC.
It does have DLC, yes, but it's nothing so insidious. I already explained to you the details on why Shale and Warden's Keep exist a few pages up.
First, giving information prior to sale is not sufficient as far as I know. The case that established first sale doctrine was over a book publisher who declared no one could resell their books for less than $1. Second, to what extent are people actually informed? I'm lazy and working from memory here, but when I preordered on Amazon there was mention of the Shale DLC but I didn't see any explicit mention that it couldn't be resold. Naturally, being familiar with DLC I knew it couldn't, but I doubt it's reasonable to assume every consumer is as well informed.
And, grrarg - we get good movies, good music, and good books without having to infringe on consumer rights. Bioware is one of the few companies that shouldn't be worried about used game sales, in that their games are typically worth hanging on to forever.
Hrm, yeah. I dunno, the warrior/rogue article just isn't singing to me. I suppose I'll see how it actually plays, but I was hoping we'd advanced past the whole "toggle power attack, wade into battle" paradigm for warriors.
I didn't say Dragon Age was doing such a thing, nor did I intend to imply it. Vincent Grayson suggested that the "free DLC" was acceptable because you could resell the content on the disc, and I was pointing out a way in which such a cop-out can -- and probably will at some future point -- lead to absurd situations.
I ask, because this game will be a day one purchase for me if it's the latter, a purchase to be made later on if it's the former, and a "maybe" on a day one buy if it's the middle option. I'm tapped out on linear RPG's at the moment.
I was going to write something more detailed, but fuck it. They can provide their product any way they want, and charge whatever they want for it, your rights aren't being violated. They aren't going to release the ending as DLC because that would just be dumb. People who buy the game used don't have a right to use patches, because noone has the right to use patches, they are provided at the company's discretion.
Basically, can people stop complaining about having to pay for things they think they have some sort of right to?
None of the above?
The first few hours of the game are pretty linear I think, but then again there are six different origins so you have six different linear paths. After that, while I don't think it's as open-ended as Oblivion, the side quests are supposed to be much better (longer and more interesting I guess) than in Mass Effect.
The lead designer estimated 80% of the game is non-linear in one of those interviews with Gamebanshee. From the awesome preview:
You buy a standard vehicle. The auto dealership offers to throw in a free set of leather seat covers and a matching leather wheel cover for buying new. These items cost $120 if sold separately.
When you go to trade your vehicle in, you're not getting the $120 that you didn't pay for the seat covers. They're a separate item that was only thrown in to sweeten the deal.
First, the notion that a company selling a product is just free to do whatever the fuck they want is absurd. I'm not demanding they sell it at a certain price, I'm not demanding they sell it the way I want, I'm demanding that when I buy something it becomes mine. And, when something is mine, I have a right to transfer ownership as I see fit. Welcome to living in a civilized state; the government restricts what you can do. If you disagree, feel free to move to Somalia.
Moving on to the meat of the post. Releasing the ending as free DLC (which is released on the same day as the game) is dumb? We have companies that have restricted the number of times you can install a PC game that you have legally purchased. It is very hard to justify any infringement on resale rights as dumb in the face of such overwhelming disregard for consumer rights. Moreover, at least one game developer (Cliff Bleszinski, of Epic Games) has openly advocated doing this as an anti-used-game and anti-rental strategy. Moving on, when I said used game purchasers should have the right to patches I meant the patches which have already been released. Perhaps you should have written something more detailed, because what you wrote here seems either ill conceived or blatantly anti-consumer.
And, Fig-D : That doesn't really relate at all. I can still sell the car to a third party complete with leather seat covers. If the dealership says THEY won't pay for the leather seat covers when buying it back, that is perfectly within their rights.
On an unrelated note: If someone wants to start a thread (either on G&T or D&D) relating to this topic, I'll gladly participate, but I don't want to derail this thread any more than I already have. It's obvious this discussion has moved away from Dragon Age and on to the abstract concept of using DLC to abuse consumers, and as such it doesn't really belong here anymore.
What I'm saying is that its an additional item, a bonus, separate from the item you were originally buying and can not be sold to a corporate third party (independent buyer like a friend or some guy on craig's list, yes, but most dealerships ask you to remove items like that before a trade in) much like the DLC could be sold to GameStop. The key here is that its NOT a part of the core $60 item that is being sold here, its icing on the cake.
Also, other media HAS done this as well. CDs have long been sold within online vouchers for bonus tracks and movies have done similar things as well.
Again, feel free to start a thread either in G&T or in D&D on the topic if you want to continue discussion. I won't give even this token response to any further consumer rights related posts in this thread. Sorry to pull a disappearance from the discussion in this thread, but I never intended my initial comment to be such a derailment.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
NWN2 was the previous Bioware fantasy RPG, right? I understand that this is a completely new engine and all, but the party AI can be really dodgy in most Bioware RPGs that I've played. It was particularly awful in NWN2.
NWN2 was made by Obsidian, although it was built on the same engine (with upgrades, of course) as NWN1, which was made by Bioware.
If it's anything like A Song of Ice and Fire, there really are no "good guys". There are just some that are less blatantly evil.
Rape and incest mini-games smattered here and there?
Of course, it depends on the nature of the conflict that requires taking sides.
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You mean Witcher, that game that has ONE SINGLE player character and the combat is completely different in all senses from DAO? Yeah, great pick there buddy.