Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
Is Helloween playing with weapon degradation on? I turned that garbage off; unless I'm jamming the barrel of the gun full of metal filing before firing every round, there's just no way a pistol is going to wear out to the point of uselessness after a couple hundred rounds.
Oh, and I thought this was sort of funny about hard mode. Got detected by a camera early in the game and ended up with a floor literally carpeted in dead bodies. Easily in excess of 15+ dead guys in a skinny little corridor. In fact, I was rather aggravated since the bodies kept fading out before I could loot them because I would have to fight six guys before getting a three-second break to try and search the dead guys around me. And hard mode steel pipes to the face really hurt. I also find it a bit odd that healing up at a surgical table costs 5 nanites, but using a regen station only cost 10. I guess Von Braun accidents either inflict slight injuries or instant death.
Ninja Snarl P on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
You definitely need the to up maintenance and use the maintenance tools to keep your weapons in repair. Repair is a useless skill and do NOT get it whatever you do.
This is again what is good about melee though, you don't have to worry about your weapons breaking/degrading. You do have to tank protocol droids though.
I turned that garbage off; unless I'm jamming the barrel of the gun full of metal filing before firing every round, there's just no way a pistol is going to wear out to the point of uselessness after a couple hundred rounds.
It's how the game was designed and the explanation for it is that as moving FTL the degradation of certain components is vastly accelerated.
But again, melee weapons have no such issue. You should melee 99.99% of what you encounter. When you pull a gun it should be for serious business only.
I also find it a bit odd that healing up at a surgical table costs 5 nanites, but using a regen station only cost 10. I guess Von Braun accidents either inflict slight injuries or instant death.
You should check out the healing stations on Citadel Station. No fancy quantum entanglement junk, just a jello mold in the wall that the cyborgs drag you to, even if you should be little more than a red smear on the far wall.
NEO|Phyte on
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
Eh you really shouldn't be that hesitant to use guns in the game, meleeing everything is both boring and makes the end way, way too easy. That was what I did the first time I played through the game, and I really regret doing that.
Weapon degradation is a very important part of the combat system, considering everything else in the game, it not being realistic really isn't a valid reason to turn it off.
There are labels on the floor for almost everything. In this update you wondered where the maintenance shaft was while walking past the label on the floor saying "Maintenance shaft" with a big arrow, and did the same thing in engineering with the engine core. You don't need to make the game more difficult for yourself, it'll do just fine on is own
Also your research needs chemicals to complete, you can get them from the chemical storerooms (either by going back to medical or finding the storeroom in engineering).
You also need to hold on to those med table keys for later. (just like the energy cells, you drag the table key to the non operating table.)
-Working tables get scarce farther in, but you'll have better access to all parts of the ship for easy healing.-
Degradation was kinda jarring at first, but considering everything else on the ship seems to have been made by the lowest bidder, it's none too surprising it's packed with crappy guns. You just have to make each shot count until you get maintenance to a decent level.
Also, the 'notes' tab on your PDA should record any important codes you get from audio logs, and other need-to-know details. Case in point, there's a section coming up that'll require a specific item, and you can remind yourself which by checking the PDA. For what it's worth, it's also possible to mark the map; I forget how, but it can be helpful if you find something you think you'll need later. I think you right click or something on the map, but I'm not sure.
I just tried playing to see how far I would get in the game by just running past everything, never hacking to turn off security or damaging any enemies (on impossible). I almost got to the second loading screen in engineering before I got shot in the back by one of the laser turrets
I sure hope Helloween figures out to disable them by hacking security
I don't recall if I performed the spoiler, but one of my best runs was *just* the laser pistol. On impossible.
Yes, this means I managed to get to the first laser pistol without killing anything*. Still not sure how I managed it.
* well. Uh, the cargo bays are somewhat dangerous places. It's hardly my fault if an elevator repeatedly lands on a maintenance droid's head, is it?
I have a complaint about the game, to shake things up a little
I still find the Recreation Deck to be quite a confusing and un-fun area, since I just can't...not get lost when searching for the satellite codes in the art terminals. The place is huge and I just have no idea where to look sometimes, leading to painful amounts of backtracking and an overall feeling of "Goddamnit what did I forget to check". If there were some clues as to what specific terminals have the codes, I'm sure the whole thing would go along much better.
And, now that I think of it, Helloween's gonna love that
I have a complaint about the game, to shake things up a little
I still find the Recreation Deck to be quite a confusing and un-fun area, since I just can't...not get lost when searching for the satellite codes in the art terminals. The place is huge and I just have no idea where to look sometimes, leading to painful amounts of backtracking and an overall feeling of "Goddamnit what did I forget to check". If there were some clues as to what specific terminals have the codes, I'm sure the whole thing would go along much better.
And, now that I think of it, Helloween's gonna love that
I just tried playing to see how far I would get in the game by just running past everything, never hacking to turn off security or damaging any enemies (on impossible). I almost got to the second loading screen in engineering before I got shot in the back by one of the laser turrets
I sure hope Helloween figures out to disable them by hacking security
I don't recall if I performed the spoiler, but one of my best runs was *just* the laser pistol. On impossible.
You can start with a Laser Pistol actually, I'm not entirely sure how you avoided doing so if that was your goal.
We're using spoilers for our benefit, Helloween. You're like reverse television. Normally it's all "Tune in next week to find out if ___ can beat the ___!" So the audience is in the dark and the writers know what's going down. But here, we know what's coming up, and you don't. That makes it better than TV. It's like if the writers didn't bother making a set outcome, so it's going to be an actual fight to the death between the two actors. :P
I thought it would be fun to add a spoiler tag and make him nervous.
Also I'm kind of surprised that you guys suggested Navy when I've always found Marine to be a lot more survivable.
You need hacking on a first time playthrough. It is by far one of the most important skills in the game. If you can get your hack to six ASAP you will basically be a god by a certain point.
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Uh. Is it? I guess you get some more items from containers.
Cameras can be shot.
Turrets can be shot.
There are no hackable door shortcuts or anything.
Hacking turrets is useless. You have to walk up to them to hack them, which means you've probably cleared out all the enemies. And if there's more than one turret they turn on each other and destroy each other.
You can't hack bots.
I mean my last playthrough I was Navy but it was more for the challenge and the fun of getting in all those containers I never did before. The first five hours or so were a lot harder without being able to kill things good.
EDIT: I guess I should not that my game shat itself last time about halfway through, so I've never finished as Navy. But I'm not really sure how hacking makes you a God at any point in the game. I mean it's useful, but having the normal weapons skill maxed and the assault rifle is more useful.
The Protocol droid actually says friendly things, which is actually pretty creepy if you're hiding from one.
Also, it's fairly slow and doesn't shoot at you. So I think a lot of people get caught off guard by the explosion.
True, but I guess I'm in the 'everything will try to kill you' mindset in this LP. Hasn't let me down yet.
A reasonable assumption, given that the manual describes the droid as follows: "The protocol droid is designed to be helpful at all times, and has no armament. Rumors of their internal power supplies exploding have been strongly denied by TriOptimum."
I, for one, see no reason to doubt our benevolent corporate overlords.
Uh. Is it? I guess you get some more items from containers.
You can also bypass some locked doors that you couldn't get into before. Some of them have some excellent stuff, you also can hack vending machines vastly improving what they have and prices. By the end of my average wrench/impossible run I have 100+ med hypos. For all intents and purposes I might as well be invincible :P
Turrets can be shot.
Turrets are far more useful hacked than shot. If you are quick you can hack all turrets in a room before they shoot one another as well - if you have good hacking and don't need to fear ice nodes and similar. I can basically click 3 things on a hack and know they are going to work with hacking 6 + Cyber Affinity 6. I have no problem hacking every turret in a room before they shoot one another :P
There are no hackable door shortcuts or anything.
Actually there are. Not to mention that you can get into several locked rooms without requiring the codes if you can hack - some of which have some excellent stuff.
Plus I'm actually 100% sure you can completely avoid some annoying objectives with hacking as well, not to mention high hacking makes
the final boss ridiculously trivial
.
Hacking turrets is useless.
Actually it far from isn't. Turrets can often kill many enemies without your involvement and they can help keep some high spawn rate areas clean of enemies. Some turrets later on are plain invaluable (one particular
rocket
turret actually).
You have to walk up to them to hack them, which means you've probably cleared out all the enemies.
Just deactivate security? Which also, you need hacking to do. Once you hack a turret if you are suitably clever it can do the work. It's very important if you use melee weapons too, because otherwise protocol droids are a complete pain in the ass.
I mean my last playthrough I was Navy but it was more for the challenge and the fun of getting in all those containers I never did before. The first five hours or so were a lot harder without being able to kill things good.
You can slaughter everything trivially with just a wrench at the start of the game except protocol droids. If you can deactivate turrets the first "turret ambush" becomes a place where you have two friendly turrets that happily shoot anyone to hang around in/recharge stuff when required. You never need to fear alarms and you will be able to hack vending machines giving you a huge amount of discounted stuff so you can get a considerable amount more ammunition (antipersonnel bullets and med hypos especially) over a non-hacking specialist.
For me, going without hacking is almost insanity and the most challenging run through of SS2 I ever did was without hacking.
Getting the hack skill to three is pretty important the first time you play. There's lots of security crates with nice stuff in them that needs 2 hack skill, and you want to buy items from replicators eventually and they need 3 hack skill for decent prices. Being able to disable turrents/security cameras early on should also be pretty nice. I can't really think of any reason to increase hack skill to 6 though.
Zell on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Getting the hack skill to three is pretty important the first time you play. There's lots of security crates with nice stuff in them that needs 2 hack skill, and you want to buy items from replicators eventually and they need 3 hack skill for decent prices. Being able to disable turrents/security cameras early on should also be pretty nice. I can't really think of any reason to increase hack skill to 6 though.
Increasing hacking difficulty throughout the game, especially when playing on impossible difficulty can make hacking a total pain in the ass. Hack 6 helps reduce ice nodes and increase your individual chances of succeeding at successfully putting in each node.
Minding, for a first run the only thing you really want is standard weapons 6 for the assault rifle (once you have hacking 3/4 minimum). The assault rifle + enough bullets can be your go to for any difficult situation thereafter.
Increasing hacking difficulty throughout the game, especially when playing on insanity difficulty can make hacking a total pain in the ass. Hack 6 helps reduce ice nodes and increase your individual chances of succeeding at successfully putting in each node.
There's a lack of things worth hacking later in the game though. The reward just isn't worth the massive amount of cyber modules you would have to put into it.
Edit: and I think that applies to getting almost any stat all the way up to 6...
Zell on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Increasing hacking difficulty throughout the game, especially when playing on insanity difficulty can make hacking a total pain in the ass. Hack 6 helps reduce ice nodes and increase your individual chances of succeeding at successfully putting in each node.
There's a lack of things worth hacking later in the game though. The reward just isn't worth the massive amount of cyber modules you would have to put into it.
I actually never found that at all. Minding, by that point I usually had about 400 anti-personnel bullets and around 50 med hypos (or more). Plus by the end of the game
the final boss is ridiculously trivial, even on impossible.
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
I got up though hydro hacking every turret I came across just on principle, and not once did I think it was worth my time. I guess if you troll enemies halfway across the map to your turret they might kill something for you.
Hacking security is fine and all, but you can just shoot out the cameras and not set off security in the first place.
Honestly hacking is pretty useful, but I can see Helloween being in pretty big trouble in an hour or two after he left off if he dosen't have a decent gun that does decent damage and the ability to keep it repaired.
Specifically the warehouse area with the monkeys, big bots and protocol droids was a nightmare for me.
Favorite parts of this one:
I know the cure for psychic monkeys.
This woman has nothing, and neither does her head.
Also:
we arrive at the cargo bays. I actually worry for the next LP; I spent long, ridiculous amounts of time there stocking up and occasionally killing whatever wandered in. It was the second place where I really felt the game was kind of let down by spawning (the first being that one camera at the entrance to medical).
I got up though hydro hacking every turret I came across just on principle, and not once did I think it was worth my time. I guess if you troll enemies halfway across the map to your turret they might kill something for you.
Was this on impossible? Because with enemy spawns on impossible, it's almost (pardon the repetition) impossible for turrets to not have to shoot something regularly through certain areas.
Hacking security is fine and all, but you can just shoot out the cameras and not set off security in the first place.
Unless you're using melee and hacking out security + melee camera is far better than shooting. A bullet not wasted on a camera is a bullet used on something important.
Specifically the warehouse area with the monkeys, big bots and protocol droids was a nightmare for me.
That was easy for me and I had a wrench. The protocol droids are the real complication there. The part I hate with a burning intense passion beyond anything else is
the body of the god damn many. Now there is a point you pull out a perfect condition assault rifle with 500 ammo, because fuck that part of the game so much.
Oh, the hacking argument popped up while I was watching the LP. My only playthrough was Marine, but I invested in hacking early on because it sounded like fun. Didn't let me down.
When the laser sword popped up, I went hard melee until I could use it. I think I did the same thing with the assault rifle and grenade launcher: found out I couldn't use them and spent a decent period making it so I could.
Oh, the hacking argument popped up while I was watching the LP. My only playthrough was Marine, but I invested in hacking early on because it sounded like fun. Didn't let me down.
When the laser sword popped up, I went hard melee until I could use it. I think I did the same thing with the assault rifle and grenade launcher: found out I couldn't use them and spent a decent period making it so I could.
On that weapon you mentioned
I worked so hard to get my energy weapons, IIRC, up to use it and was so disappointed. It's actually the worst melee weapon in the game because it suffers penalties against all organic targets. It's good against bots though, but it's superseded and replaced entirely by the crystal shard (which is solid against every enemy in the game). Actually the only weapon skill you ever want to max is standard weapons, everything else actually isn't really worth it at all
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
I've never played on impossible, and I suspect Helloween isn't playing on impossible. Honestly I think you've gotten to the part where you've played it so much you know how to game some of the enemies and you know the game in and out so well that your advice isn't really relevant to a normal player.
Bullets also go a lot farther when you aren't doing shit damage with them. Doing more damage per shot also means you shooting your gun less and degrading it less.
Increasing hacking difficulty throughout the game, especially when playing on insanity difficulty can make hacking a total pain in the ass. Hack 6 helps reduce ice nodes and increase your individual chances of succeeding at successfully putting in each node.
There's a lack of things worth hacking later in the game though. The reward just isn't worth the massive amount of cyber modules you would have to put into it.
I actually never found that at all. Minding, by that point I usually had about 400 anti-personnel bullets and around 50 med hypos (or more). Plus by the end of the game
the final boss is ridiculously trivial, even on impossible.
She's ALWAYS ridiculously trivial, people who don't max hack just use ice picks and firepower, I don't even think you need more than one ice pick, not even that if you have an assault rifle
Also I seem to always manage to stock up on anti-personnel bullets and med hypos before the end game even when I don't max hacking, and I always end up having way, way too much of it. Which is why I keep telling people to not claim there's an ammo shortage requiring you to use the wrench on EVERYTHING.
There's just way too few things that require hacking at 6. Spending those points at getting cybernetic affinity to 4 (or 5 if you started with it) will work for hacking practically everything and you'll still have lots of spare points to use on more important things, like your primary stats, weapon and tech skills.
Zell on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I've never played on impossible, and I suspect Helloween isn't playing on impossible.
I think I played it on the difficulty just down from impossible the first time through actually, but I had played the original system shock and I had actually just finished all the thief games. Using the wrench and being careful just came naturally. I sort of wandered on hacking by sheer accident, if I hadn't taken hacking my first time through the game I would have been so screwed.
Honestly I think you've gotten to the part where you've played it so much you know how to game some of the enemies and you know the game in and out so well that your advice isn't really relevant to a normal player.
Well yes, I do know the game inside and outside. It's also why I know people going "you needs a gun!!!" are being more than hyperbolic because if the wrench/melee works on impossible it works even better on lower difficulties. If you conserve ammunition and weapons now (plus maint tools) you make the actually hard parts of SS2 later easy. The beginning enemies, except protocol droids for the beautifully obvious reason as shown in the LP are easily handled with the wrench and similar. This lets you easily focus on hacking and other skills before weapon skills (minding navy gives you a huge head start with +2 standard weapons, which Helloween took - so it's not hard getting the all important standard weapon 6!).
Increased movement speed + wrench = ninja death machine.
Bullets also go a lot farther when you aren't doing shit damage with them. Doing more damage per shot also means you shooting your gun less and degrading it less.
But you also don't even need to shoot it at all, because a vast majority of things like hybrids can easily be dealt to with a wrench due to the stagger effect when you hit something in melee. If you can hack you can also literally buy so much ammunition as its dirt cheap it isn't funny :P
Posts
Oh, and I thought this was sort of funny about hard mode. Got detected by a camera early in the game and ended up with a floor literally carpeted in dead bodies. Easily in excess of 15+ dead guys in a skinny little corridor. In fact, I was rather aggravated since the bodies kept fading out before I could loot them because I would have to fight six guys before getting a three-second break to try and search the dead guys around me. And hard mode steel pipes to the face really hurt. I also find it a bit odd that healing up at a surgical table costs 5 nanites, but using a regen station only cost 10. I guess Von Braun accidents either inflict slight injuries or instant death.
This is again what is good about melee though, you don't have to worry about your weapons breaking/degrading. You do have to tank protocol droids though.
It's how the game was designed and the explanation for it is that as moving FTL the degradation of certain components is vastly accelerated.
But again, melee weapons have no such issue. You should melee 99.99% of what you encounter. When you pull a gun it should be for serious business only.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
Weapon degradation is a very important part of the combat system, considering everything else in the game, it not being realistic really isn't a valid reason to turn it off.
Also your research needs chemicals to complete, you can get them from the chemical storerooms (either by going back to medical or finding the storeroom in engineering).
-Working tables get scarce farther in, but you'll have better access to all parts of the ship for easy healing.-
Also, the 'notes' tab on your PDA should record any important codes you get from audio logs, and other need-to-know details. Case in point, there's a section coming up that'll require a specific item, and you can remind yourself which by checking the PDA. For what it's worth, it's also possible to mark the map; I forget how, but it can be helpful if you find something you think you'll need later. I think you right click or something on the map, but I'm not sure.
Also, armour never degrades.
I don't recall if I performed the spoiler, but one of my best runs was *just* the laser pistol. On impossible.
Yes, this means I managed to get to the first laser pistol without killing anything*. Still not sure how I managed it.
And, now that I think of it, Helloween's gonna love that
Yeah I always cheat at that part.
Nasty people.
Youtube Channel!
Was that the goozex one?
Was it good?
Youtube Channel!
I never really got into it, unfortunately. Maybe I'll go back to it.
To get back on topic, the next episode is going to be very entertaining indeed. Ahaha. Aha. Ha.
You can start with a Laser Pistol actually, I'm not entirely sure how you avoided doing so if that was your goal.
Told you so.
Also I'm kind of surprised that you guys suggested Navy when I've always found Marine to be a lot more survivable.
You need hacking on a first time playthrough. It is by far one of the most important skills in the game. If you can get your hack to six ASAP you will basically be a god by a certain point.
Cameras can be shot.
Turrets can be shot.
There are no hackable door shortcuts or anything.
Hacking turrets is useless. You have to walk up to them to hack them, which means you've probably cleared out all the enemies. And if there's more than one turret they turn on each other and destroy each other.
You can't hack bots.
I mean my last playthrough I was Navy but it was more for the challenge and the fun of getting in all those containers I never did before. The first five hours or so were a lot harder without being able to kill things good.
EDIT: I guess I should not that my game shat itself last time about halfway through, so I've never finished as Navy. But I'm not really sure how hacking makes you a God at any point in the game. I mean it's useful, but having the normal weapons skill maxed and the assault rifle is more useful.
I, for one, see no reason to doubt our benevolent corporate overlords.
You can also bypass some locked doors that you couldn't get into before. Some of them have some excellent stuff, you also can hack vending machines vastly improving what they have and prices. By the end of my average wrench/impossible run I have 100+ med hypos. For all intents and purposes I might as well be invincible :P
Turrets are far more useful hacked than shot. If you are quick you can hack all turrets in a room before they shoot one another as well - if you have good hacking and don't need to fear ice nodes and similar. I can basically click 3 things on a hack and know they are going to work with hacking 6 + Cyber Affinity 6. I have no problem hacking every turret in a room before they shoot one another :P
Actually there are. Not to mention that you can get into several locked rooms without requiring the codes if you can hack - some of which have some excellent stuff.
Plus I'm actually 100% sure you can completely avoid some annoying objectives with hacking as well, not to mention high hacking makes
Actually it far from isn't. Turrets can often kill many enemies without your involvement and they can help keep some high spawn rate areas clean of enemies. Some turrets later on are plain invaluable (one particular
Just deactivate security? Which also, you need hacking to do. Once you hack a turret if you are suitably clever it can do the work. It's very important if you use melee weapons too, because otherwise protocol droids are a complete pain in the ass.
You can slaughter everything trivially with just a wrench at the start of the game except protocol droids. If you can deactivate turrets the first "turret ambush" becomes a place where you have two friendly turrets that happily shoot anyone to hang around in/recharge stuff when required. You never need to fear alarms and you will be able to hack vending machines giving you a huge amount of discounted stuff so you can get a considerable amount more ammunition (antipersonnel bullets and med hypos especially) over a non-hacking specialist.
For me, going without hacking is almost insanity and the most challenging run through of SS2 I ever did was without hacking.
Increasing hacking difficulty throughout the game, especially when playing on impossible difficulty can make hacking a total pain in the ass. Hack 6 helps reduce ice nodes and increase your individual chances of succeeding at successfully putting in each node.
Minding, for a first run the only thing you really want is standard weapons 6 for the assault rifle (once you have hacking 3/4 minimum). The assault rifle + enough bullets can be your go to for any difficult situation thereafter.
Edit: and I think that applies to getting almost any stat all the way up to 6...
I actually never found that at all. Minding, by that point I usually had about 400 anti-personnel bullets and around 50 med hypos (or more). Plus by the end of the game
Hacking security is fine and all, but you can just shoot out the cameras and not set off security in the first place.
Honestly hacking is pretty useful, but I can see Helloween being in pretty big trouble in an hour or two after he left off if he dosen't have a decent gun that does decent damage and the ability to keep it repaired.
Favorite parts of this one:
I know the cure for psychic monkeys.
This woman has nothing, and neither does her head.
Also:
Was this on impossible? Because with enemy spawns on impossible, it's almost (pardon the repetition) impossible for turrets to not have to shoot something regularly through certain areas.
Unless you're using melee and hacking out security + melee camera is far better than shooting. A bullet not wasted on a camera is a bullet used on something important.
That was easy for me and I had a wrench. The protocol droids are the real complication there. The part I hate with a burning intense passion beyond anything else is
On that weapon you mentioned
Bullets also go a lot farther when you aren't doing shit damage with them. Doing more damage per shot also means you shooting your gun less and degrading it less.
There's just way too few things that require hacking at 6. Spending those points at getting cybernetic affinity to 4 (or 5 if you started with it) will work for hacking practically everything and you'll still have lots of spare points to use on more important things, like your primary stats, weapon and tech skills.
I think I played it on the difficulty just down from impossible the first time through actually, but I had played the original system shock and I had actually just finished all the thief games. Using the wrench and being careful just came naturally. I sort of wandered on hacking by sheer accident, if I hadn't taken hacking my first time through the game I would have been so screwed.
Well yes, I do know the game inside and outside. It's also why I know people going "you needs a gun!!!" are being more than hyperbolic because if the wrench/melee works on impossible it works even better on lower difficulties. If you conserve ammunition and weapons now (plus maint tools) you make the actually hard parts of SS2 later easy. The beginning enemies, except protocol droids for the beautifully obvious reason as shown in the LP are easily handled with the wrench and similar. This lets you easily focus on hacking and other skills before weapon skills (minding navy gives you a huge head start with +2 standard weapons, which Helloween took - so it's not hard getting the all important standard weapon 6!).
Increased movement speed + wrench = ninja death machine.
But you also don't even need to shoot it at all, because a vast majority of things like hybrids can easily be dealt to with a wrench due to the stagger effect when you hit something in melee. If you can hack you can also literally buy so much ammunition as its dirt cheap it isn't funny :P