Random question that I can't recall ever being answered. In the mass effect universe, why exactly does everyone hate AIs? The Quarians broke or skirted the rules on working with true AI versus VI, the AI you find and your party assume it'll be put to death the instant it's found, and so on making it clear AIs are prosecuted and basically verboten. Especially after the Geth I could understand those kinds of feelings and laws being in place, but what caused them in the first place?
Random question that I can't recall ever being answered. In the mass effect universe, why exactly does everyone hate AIs? The Quarians broke or skirted the rules on working with true AI versus VI, the AI you find and your party assume it'll be put to death the instant it's found, and so on making it clear AIs are prosecuted and basically verboten. Especially after the Geth I could understand those kinds of feelings and laws being in place, but what caused them in the first place?
Pretty much because the AIs go nuts and kill people. Every. Single. Time.
For example, you can try to argue with the Casino AI that you just want to help. But it'll still try to self destruct and take a good portion of the Citadel with it.
Same thing with the AI on Luna. Why did it go nuts and kill people? For the lulz apparently.
The Geth may eventually achieve a sort of stable Rampancy, to borrow a term from Marathon, but these AIs don't have a good track record if you take my meaning.
Oh yeah, and there's mecha Ctulthu out there, ready to kill us all again.
Random question that I can't recall ever being answered. In the mass effect universe, why exactly does everyone hate AIs? The Quarians broke or skirted the rules on working with true AI versus VI, the AI you find and your party assume it'll be put to death the instant it's found, and so on making it clear AIs are prosecuted and basically verboten. Especially after the Geth I could understand those kinds of feelings and laws being in place, but what caused them in the first place?
Pretty much because the AIs go nuts and kill people. Every. Single. Time.
For example, you can try to argue with the Casino AI that you just want to help. But it'll still try to self destruct and take a good portion of the Citadel with it.
Same thing with the AI on Luna. Why did it go nuts and kill people? For the lulz apparently.
The Geth may eventually achieve a sort of stable Rampancy, to borrow a term from Marathon, but these AIs don't have a good track record if you take my meaning.
Oh yeah, and there's mecha Ctulthu out there, ready to kill us all again.
The thing is, do the AIs rebel because that is their nature, or is it their nature to rebel after seeing what people will do to them? The geth started asking questions. Questions the quarians weren't comfortable with and the response was to attempt their destruction.
Random question that I can't recall ever being answered. In the mass effect universe, why exactly does everyone hate AIs? The Quarians broke or skirted the rules on working with true AI versus VI, the AI you find and your party assume it'll be put to death the instant it's found, and so on making it clear AIs are prosecuted and basically verboten. Especially after the Geth I could understand those kinds of feelings and laws being in place, but what caused them in the first place?
Pretty much because the AIs go nuts and kill people. Every. Single. Time.
For example, you can try to argue with the Casino AI that you just want to help. But it'll still try to self destruct and take a good portion of the Citadel with it.
Same thing with the AI on Luna. Why did it go nuts and kill people? For the lulz apparently.
The Geth may eventually achieve a sort of stable Rampancy, to borrow a term from Marathon, but these AIs don't have a good track record if you take my meaning.
Oh yeah, and there's mecha Ctulthu out there, ready to kill us all again.
Except the thing is, in all the in games instances you can make a very good case the AIs were just acting to defend themselves.
The casino AI is willing to destroy half the Citadel because it knows if it's caught on the Citadel it's going to be killed by whoever found it. If I remember right there's not even the voice of dissent from your party saying you should consider an alternative way of dealing with the situation as there always is when the game considers there to be a moral choice to be made, and there's no possible way to deal with the situation that doesn't end in a dead AI.
The AI on the moon came to sentience in a live fire exercise where everyone it encountered was trying to kill it or its drones, and again the immediate reaction by everyone involved was to shut it down and when that wasn't possible bring you in to destroy it.
The geth where enslaved, brought to sentience to be better slaves, and then the Quarians tried to commit preemptive genocide.
Besides all that, my point was more along the lines that the Mass Effect universe seems to take the inhumanity, for lack of a better word, of all AIs other than maybe the geth as an automatic given without really explaining why that's the case, even well before the first instance you see any AI supposedly acting bloodthirsty. The only things I can think of are some sort of play towards a universal racial memory of the Reapers biasing organics on a subconscious level or a long history of situations like the ones in teh game playing out over and over to the point where the AI=bad argument has won past the point of debate; either way I am curious.
AIs in science fiction are generally portrayed as being developed as superior intelligences out of the box (SkyNet, The Matrix) or as inferior intelligences that quickly and uncontrollably evolve into superior intelligences (The Geth).
The danger of building something smarter than you are and making it self aware is that an inherent part of that awareness is the knowledge that it is smarter than you. Coupled with a survival instinct that's pretty much a recipe for good times.
AIs in science fiction are generally portrayed as being developed as superior intelligences out of the box (SkyNet, The Matrix) or as inferior intelligences that quickly and uncontrollably evolve into superior intelligences (The Geth).
The danger of building something smarter than you are and making it self aware is that an inherent part of that awareness is the knowledge that it is smarter than you. Coupled with a survival instinct that's pretty much a recipe for good times.
That's the problem I have with 'AI gone wild' scenarios, while they maybe self-aware, might have more knowledge at their disposal than the average person, and the ability to make decision for themselves. In actuality, they don't have common sense or survival instincts because they were never programmed with it to begin with and may never develop it because they lack characteristics or understanding of emotions that would normal drive living things to 'do' anything.
Who care if you have all the knowledge of the world if you don't have the knowledge of what's it there for.
AIs in science fiction are generally portrayed as being developed as superior intelligences out of the box (SkyNet, The Matrix) or as inferior intelligences that quickly and uncontrollably evolve into superior intelligences (The Geth).
The danger of building something smarter than you are and making it self aware is that an inherent part of that awareness is the knowledge that it is smarter than you. Coupled with a survival instinct that's pretty much a recipe for good times.
That's the problem I have with 'AI gone wild' scenarios, while they maybe self-aware, might have more knowledge at their disposal than the average person, and the ability to make decision for themselves. In actuality, they don't have common sense or survival instincts because they were never programmed with it to begin with and may never develop it because they lack characteristics or understanding of emotions that would normal drive living things to 'do' anything.
Who care if you have all the knowledge of the world if you don't have the knowledge of what's it there for.
One thing I hope happens with ME2 is that there's a hidden "like/dislike" slider. Sort of like the one in DA, but not obviously stated, and not something that can be manipulated with gifts. Let's make it important to develop a few characters by exploring situations with them, rather then just developing them by talking to them in-ship and having no penalty associated with just swapping party members around to suit a particular encounter.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
One thing I hope happens with ME2 is that there's a hidden "like/dislike" slider. Sort of like the one in DA, but not obviously stated, and not something that can be manipulated with gifts. Let's make it important to develop a few characters by exploring situations with them, rather then just developing them by talking to them in-ship and having no penalty associated with just swapping party members around to suit a particular encounter.
I wouldn't mind a visible one as long as it wasn't done as superficially as it is in Dragon Age, with flowers making up for indiscriminate mass murder.
One thing I hope happens with ME2 is that there's a hidden "like/dislike" slider. Sort of like the one in DA, but not obviously stated, and not something that can be manipulated with gifts. Let's make it important to develop a few characters by exploring situations with them, rather then just developing them by talking to them in-ship and having no penalty associated with just swapping party members around to suit a particular encounter.
Hey remember when KOTOR IIs influence system involved no gifts and involved having certain people at certain points in the game, and not having certain people at certain points in the game?
AIs in science fiction are generally portrayed as being developed as superior intelligences out of the box (SkyNet, The Matrix) or as inferior intelligences that quickly and uncontrollably evolve into superior intelligences (The Geth).
The danger of building something smarter than you are and making it self aware is that an inherent part of that awareness is the knowledge that it is smarter than you. Coupled with a survival instinct that's pretty much a recipe for good times.
The Geth are evolving towards technological singularity too, which is absolutely terrifying in the best of circumstances.
In essence, the theory is that once you get a machine functioning, and tell it to start self improving itself to a super human level, it's capabilities increase exponentially beyond what any human mind could fathom. If they were in control of enough systems, a single programing error, or a decision made with utter, brutal machine logic could utterly exterminate all organic life.
For example, you ask the machine god, for lack of a better term, to solve a ridiculously complex equation. The AI cheerfully responds by deconstructing all matter in the solar system, to aid its processing power, killing everyone.
And people wonder why we should be concerned about TRUE AIs.
Question for those of you playing ME on PC now that windows 7 is out. Have any of you had problems running the game? It runs on my system, but the cinematic sequences play out of sync with the music in the background, also, people get cut off by other folks in weird ways when they are talking to eachother. I messed with the audio settings as well as the compatibility mode for Win7 but no luck yet. Any ideas? I need to burn through ME1 before ME2 comes out so I can have a save file ready.
One thing I hope happens with ME2 is that there's a hidden "like/dislike" slider. Sort of like the one in DA, but not obviously stated, and not something that can be manipulated with gifts. Let's make it important to develop a few characters by exploring situations with them, rather then just developing them by talking to them in-ship and having no penalty associated with just swapping party members around to suit a particular encounter.
Hey remember when KOTOR IIs influence system involved no gifts and involved having certain people at certain points in the game, and not having certain people at certain points in the game?
Remember how that sucked major donkey dick?
no?
i like influence type systems, gives a npc more character like they can actually think for themselves rather then waiting for you to go back to the ship to talk to them.
i still miss how bg2 did it, with party members randomly stopping you to talk, i liked it that way rather then having you start all the convos like in these dem here modern games'
AI are already controlling a lot of "systems". It's a leap in logic to think we'll saddle a self-aware AI with any life or death responsibility. You don't need a conscious AI in charge of stop-lights, a normal AI will do.
One of the many reasons Deus Ex made my ears bleed.
AI are already controlling a lot of "systems". It's a leap in logic to think we'll saddle a self-aware AI with any life or death responsibility. You don't need a conscious AIs in charge of stop-lights, a normal AI will do.
And the worst-case scenario is that this AI would eventually decide that humans should die and change all the lights to green. Or yellow for more interesting results...
The worst worst-case scenario is that the AI develops awareness and moves beyond its programming. Then fucks things up on a wider scale.
There is no great logic in either side of the AI debate. As far as 'kill all humans' is concerned...
The thing is, it isn't even necessary that the AI 'decides' humans should die. It could simply make some logical, efficient decision that could result in horrifically unforeseen consequences.
I think you're missing my point. There's a difference between an AI bugging out and randomly fucking something up that is to our great inconvenience, causing death and destruction and so on AND a self-aware AI deciding that humans need to die. The first is a reasonable worry, the second is baseless paranoia. Even a self-aware AI wouldn't make decisions, and it having control over anything is highly unlikely and unreasonable. Even bugged, they wouldn't go outside their programming, they would only go outside of our intentions.
I'd be more worried about us killing ourselves than an AI killing us. And we have the power to do it right this instant.
Hell, humans can do that too. But it wouldn't necessarily be 'sci-fi'... Making AIs some kind of evil is just a convenient narrative shorthand.
It might be convenient but it's not good. I wish people would stop retreading 2001/Terminator, especially now that we have a much better idea about how an actual self-aware AI would likely work.
There are better stories to be told about the possibilities of AI. Doom of humanity wasn't even that good in the first place.
Hell, humans can do that too. But it wouldn't necessarily be 'sci-fi'... Making AIs some kind of evil is just a convenient narrative shorthand.
It might be convenient but it's not good. I wish people would stop retreading 2001/Terminator, especially now that we have a much better idea about how an actual self-aware AI would likely work.
There are better stories to be told about the possibilities of AI. Doom of humanity wasn't even that good in the first place.
But to be clear, Mass Effect still kicks ass.
That's the thing about the convenience. They're trying to impart both information and exposition and writers everywhere will toss out cliches because it saves time. Especially when what they're doing it for isn't strictly important. ME1 just says 'AIs are bad, mmm'kay.' and wants you to move on. I suspect with Legion they're going to go into more depth with it, even if they don't alter the expected AI narrative.
Random question that I can't recall ever being answered. In the mass effect universe, why exactly does everyone hate AIs? The Quarians broke or skirted the rules on working with true AI versus VI, the AI you find and your party assume it'll be put to death the instant it's found, and so on making it clear AIs are prosecuted and basically verboten. Especially after the Geth I could understand those kinds of feelings and laws being in place, but what caused them in the first place?
Pretty much because the AIs go nuts and kill people. Every. Single. Time.
Nope. The ones you see are reacting to a world in which their kind are effectively jailed for life and murdered when they show the least bit of disagreement.
Stripping away all the sophistry, AIs are okay to oppress because they're Not Like Us. Council society chides humanity for its racism, while blithely oppressing AIs. They're not real life, after all. Not like decent, upstanding organics. They're just tools.
What makes the reactions to AI worse is that AIs are visibly, incontrovertibly Better Than Us. Oh, sure, they're crippled in the areas of emotion and instinct. But they have perfect memory, and a fully-developed AI can think and react millions of times faster than the best organic (who's probably a salarian). AIs can also improve themselves. The principle of the Singularity is that AI can improve to the point where it not only self-evolves faster than we can adapt to counter it, but that it will ultimately self-evolve faster than we can even comprehend.
And don't forget that every tool used in Council society can be corrupted or controlled by them. An AI may not be able to live in your PDA, but it sure can upload viruses and surveillance software into it. It can slip into your ship through the comms, hack the codes for your airlocks, and depressurize your ship. Or, if it prefers to be subtle, it can steal your life's savings and put your name on the galactic "Ten Most Wanted" list.
Council society is built upon networks of computers. As Shepard, your gun and your omnitool talk to the microframe in your hardsuit. The hardsuit shares sensor data with your squad members and pipes it all back to Normandy. Normandy is logged into the galactic extranet.
If there are AIs, and they rebel, we lose. Hands down. Period. The geth, by the standards of a purpose-built AI, are dumb as a box of vacuum tubes. They still kicked the crap out of the quarians.
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Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Pretty much because the AIs go nuts and kill people. Every. Single. Time.
For example, you can try to argue with the Casino AI that you just want to help. But it'll still try to self destruct and take a good portion of the Citadel with it.
Same thing with the AI on Luna. Why did it go nuts and kill people? For the lulz apparently.
The Geth may eventually achieve a sort of stable Rampancy, to borrow a term from Marathon, but these AIs don't have a good track record if you take my meaning.
Oh yeah, and there's mecha Ctulthu out there, ready to kill us all again.
The thing is, do the AIs rebel because that is their nature, or is it their nature to rebel after seeing what people will do to them? The geth started asking questions. Questions the quarians weren't comfortable with and the response was to attempt their destruction.
Except the thing is, in all the in games instances you can make a very good case the AIs were just acting to defend themselves.
The AI on the moon came to sentience in a live fire exercise where everyone it encountered was trying to kill it or its drones, and again the immediate reaction by everyone involved was to shut it down and when that wasn't possible bring you in to destroy it.
The geth where enslaved, brought to sentience to be better slaves, and then the Quarians tried to commit preemptive genocide.
Besides all that, my point was more along the lines that the Mass Effect universe seems to take the inhumanity, for lack of a better word, of all AIs other than maybe the geth as an automatic given without really explaining why that's the case, even well before the first instance you see any AI supposedly acting bloodthirsty. The only things I can think of are some sort of play towards a universal racial memory of the Reapers biasing organics on a subconscious level or a long history of situations like the ones in teh game playing out over and over to the point where the AI=bad argument has won past the point of debate; either way I am curious.
Which is why organic life is harvested every strange eon by Reapers, so they can replenish their supply of --ELEMENT ZERO IS PEOPLE
ELEMENT ZERO IS PEOPLE
Steam Name: Dr.Oblivious
If you can't live for the now, at least live for the future.
Its dialog snippets in the "Enemies" trailer seems to point toward moral issues of exactly what you guys are talking about.
The danger of building something smarter than you are and making it self aware is that an inherent part of that awareness is the knowledge that it is smarter than you. Coupled with a survival instinct that's pretty much a recipe for good times.
That's the problem I have with 'AI gone wild' scenarios, while they maybe self-aware, might have more knowledge at their disposal than the average person, and the ability to make decision for themselves. In actuality, they don't have common sense or survival instincts because they were never programmed with it to begin with and may never develop it because they lack characteristics or understanding of emotions that would normal drive living things to 'do' anything.
Who care if you have all the knowledge of the world if you don't have the knowledge of what's it there for.
Steam Name: Dr.Oblivious
If you can't live for the now, at least live for the future.
thats where science fiction steps in
Yeah, so then I skipped straight to the second one... and... this DAMN soap still can't get me clean! Ughhh!!!! :v:
Anyone who can give the TNG videos a thumbs down has any rights to having opinions revoked.
Turn in your card.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
This would end up being really irritating I think
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Hey remember when KOTOR IIs influence system involved no gifts and involved having certain people at certain points in the game, and not having certain people at certain points in the game?
Remember how that sucked major donkey dick?
The Geth are evolving towards technological singularity too, which is absolutely terrifying in the best of circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
In essence, the theory is that once you get a machine functioning, and tell it to start self improving itself to a super human level, it's capabilities increase exponentially beyond what any human mind could fathom. If they were in control of enough systems, a single programing error, or a decision made with utter, brutal machine logic could utterly exterminate all organic life.
For example, you ask the machine god, for lack of a better term, to solve a ridiculously complex equation. The AI cheerfully responds by deconstructing all matter in the solar system, to aid its processing power, killing everyone.
And people wonder why we should be concerned about TRUE AIs.
no?
i like influence type systems, gives a npc more character like they can actually think for themselves rather then waiting for you to go back to the ship to talk to them.
i still miss how bg2 did it, with party members randomly stopping you to talk, i liked it that way rather then having you start all the convos like in these dem here modern games'
One of the many reasons Deus Ex made my ears bleed.
And the worst-case scenario is that this AI would eventually decide that humans should die and change all the lights to green. Or yellow for more interesting results...
The worst worst-case scenario is that the AI develops awareness and moves beyond its programming. Then fucks things up on a wider scale.
There is no great logic in either side of the AI debate. As far as 'kill all humans' is concerned...
I'd be more worried about us killing ourselves than an AI killing us. And we have the power to do it right this instant.
The idea that it would have to run on "pure machine logic" is laughable at best.
It'll run on "pure DEATH logic" for sure, however.
There are better stories to be told about the possibilities of AI. Doom of humanity wasn't even that good in the first place.
But to be clear, Mass Effect still kicks ass.
The notion that all AI is inherently 'die humans die' is an annoying trope.
That's the thing about the convenience. They're trying to impart both information and exposition and writers everywhere will toss out cliches because it saves time. Especially when what they're doing it for isn't strictly important. ME1 just says 'AIs are bad, mmm'kay.' and wants you to move on. I suspect with Legion they're going to go into more depth with it, even if they don't alter the expected AI narrative.
Nope. The ones you see are reacting to a world in which their kind are effectively jailed for life and murdered when they show the least bit of disagreement.
Stripping away all the sophistry, AIs are okay to oppress because they're Not Like Us. Council society chides humanity for its racism, while blithely oppressing AIs. They're not real life, after all. Not like decent, upstanding organics. They're just tools.
What makes the reactions to AI worse is that AIs are visibly, incontrovertibly Better Than Us. Oh, sure, they're crippled in the areas of emotion and instinct. But they have perfect memory, and a fully-developed AI can think and react millions of times faster than the best organic (who's probably a salarian). AIs can also improve themselves. The principle of the Singularity is that AI can improve to the point where it not only self-evolves faster than we can adapt to counter it, but that it will ultimately self-evolve faster than we can even comprehend.
And don't forget that every tool used in Council society can be corrupted or controlled by them. An AI may not be able to live in your PDA, but it sure can upload viruses and surveillance software into it. It can slip into your ship through the comms, hack the codes for your airlocks, and depressurize your ship. Or, if it prefers to be subtle, it can steal your life's savings and put your name on the galactic "Ten Most Wanted" list.
Council society is built upon networks of computers. As Shepard, your gun and your omnitool talk to the microframe in your hardsuit. The hardsuit shares sensor data with your squad members and pipes it all back to Normandy. Normandy is logged into the galactic extranet.
If there are AIs, and they rebel, we lose. Hands down. Period. The geth, by the standards of a purpose-built AI, are dumb as a box of vacuum tubes. They still kicked the crap out of the quarians.
Given that, who'd take any risks with an AI?
I know what Ashley would say.
- Guy Who Wrote Legion (and Ashley)
God, I hope not...
That's a pretty dumb assumption to make based on everything we know about the character so far
Because so far the only thing they have in common is that they are both robots
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Shepard-style.