you also get difference levels of need based on armor type i think. If youre a priest and a holy pally wants that cloth chestpiece you get preference over him.
The fact that this will be the loot system for the cross server dungeons will be fantastic. Ninjas will be down 70%.
Knocked out a couple of the big, group chains in Iecrown last night. First, the one that wraps up with The Bone Witch (with some great Lich King voice acting halfway through), and the other on Onslaught Island. Great stuff. Even greater having 2-manned it all with a DK friend.
After doing the Scarlet Onslaught one, I would have really liked that one to be similar to the Nathanos Blightcaller quest, in which you throw together a small raid to take him down. That fight/ending deserved a lot more attention than it got, and I think far too many people just skip it. Hell, you're fighting...
Mal'Ganis... again...
... and it should last longer than a 3 minute fight.
Ah well.
No matter. Even without my sphere, I will crush you! Behold my true identity and despair!
Kirel narak! I am Mal'Ganis. I AM ETERNAL!
So I cannot need tanking swords and other items form death knights for a laugh as I pretend to de them?
It kind of pisses me off that maces and other items I cannot use {leather, mail and plate spell power gear} is better than most of the gear I can use as a warlock
Hopefully with 3.3 lfg battlegroup I can get ifinish uldar or maybe get into an icecrown raid without the whole i'll be gear checking/achievement bs
I really don't want the TOC raid gear but it sucks for affliction
I forsee slight itemisation issues: as an Elemental there's a lot of nice caster leather out there, for example. An upgrade is an upgrade and armor value means nothing to me.
I am so looking forward to the bug/lag clusterfuck that the next patch will bring with all the cross realm stuff. But then again, it'll make getting into the new Arthus stuff a friggin breeze.
Lanrutcon on
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
All this stuff on the new LFG shit sounds perfect. They really thought of everything. If anything its going to be infinately easier to replace shitty members. Instantly requeue and pop in a new dude.
The fact you can ignore someone to never group with them is good shit. You basically are allowed control over your group.
The loot rules are perfect too. The only way someone could ninja shit is to roll for something they have a better peice than or already have. The whole not being able to downgrade to lower armor classes kinda sucks, especially for casters like Shamans because sans PVP there is basically no reason to need Armor, so stats are all that matters. But its a small price to pay.
I am looking forward to this with gusto. When I get to play, its often shitty times, so all the incentives + more people to group with makes my playtime easier.
eh Ive never really seen a problem with slight itemisation issues.
Does it really matter that much if the mail version has slightly less int than the cloth version. The fact that you can use cloth/leather/mail also makes it more likely that you will get drops than the poor priest with just cloth.
So I'm at a crossroads. I'm going to be retiring my paladin before Cataclysm, and I've got two characters in the 70s to choose from for mynew main: Warrior or Rogue. Both Dwarves.
Basically I'm on the fence between being arms/tank spec, or being a commited dps and getting to stealth around things. On my pally, I'm ret/tank, but usually tanking. Pretty bored of the mechanics of a pally for tanking and ret, just feels oversimplified.
Any input on warrior vs rogue, or some things I can do to help me decide? Right now I'm jumpin between the two and leveling them, trying to experience what I can of PvE and PvP.
tehmarken on
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
eh Ive never really seen a problem with slight itemisation issues.
Does it really matter that much if the mail version has slightly less int than the cloth version. The fact that you can use cloth/leather/mail also makes it more likely that you will get drops than the poor priest with just cloth.
Its less this, and more not feeling like waiting for mail to drop, when a nice peice of cloth is right there and no clothie needs it.
I was able to "gear up" my healing shaman VERY quick by doing tons of TOC and HTOC and taking cloth leather AND mail, since they were nice enough to cover almost every slot over the course of those three armor classes.
If I had stuck with mail, I would have maybe 3 slots. Thats it.
So I'm at a crossroads. I'm going to be retiring my paladin before Cataclysm, and I've got two characters in the 70s to choose from for mynew main: Warrior or Rogue. Both Dwarves.
Basically I'm on the fence between being arms/tank spec, or being a commited dps and getting to stealth around things. On my pally, I'm ret/tank, but usually tanking. Pretty bored of the mechanics of a pally for tanking and ret, just feels oversimplified.
Any input on warrior vs rogue, or some things I can do to help me decide? Right now I'm jumpin between the two and leveling them, trying to experience what I can of PvE and PvP.
Well PVE wise I think rogues might be a little more interesting DPS than warriors, but if you really wanna tank, Warriors are the funnestest.
As for PVP, both are effective IMO, but I think a rogue is a lot more entertaining, and a shitton more annoying to people.
So I'm at a crossroads. I'm going to be retiring my paladin before Cataclysm, and I've got two characters in the 70s to choose from for mynew main: Warrior or Rogue. Both Dwarves.
Basically I'm on the fence between being arms/tank spec, or being a commited dps and getting to stealth around things. On my pally, I'm ret/tank, but usually tanking. Pretty bored of the mechanics of a pally for tanking and ret, just feels oversimplified.
Any input on warrior vs rogue, or some things I can do to help me decide? Right now I'm jumpin between the two and leveling them, trying to experience what I can of PvE and PvP.
Definetly two different play-styles.
I've found I had a lot of fun with my Rogue, simply because you can approach quests and whatnot from a different angle. The stealth is a big part of it... getting to your target without having to fight your way there. Quests tend to go faster, and levelling as a result of that.
If you want more utility, though, I'd go with the Warrior. Being a tank is nicer than having to always look for one, and you're bound to get more invites over the 15 DPS that are also looking for the same group. You'll have the option of more items, simply because you carry two different purposes. Rogue will get DPS leather... and... DPS leather.
I've had a great time with both of mine, and they're both my favorites so far. Then again, I've been a Rogue since Everquest, every game in-between, and since World of Warcraft's beta. I'll always be partial to Rogues
So I'm at a crossroads. I'm going to be retiring my paladin before Cataclysm, and I've got two characters in the 70s to choose from for mynew main: Warrior or Rogue. Both Dwarves.
Basically I'm on the fence between being arms/tank spec, or being a commited dps and getting to stealth around things. On my pally, I'm ret/tank, but usually tanking. Pretty bored of the mechanics of a pally for tanking and ret, just feels oversimplified.
Any input on warrior vs rogue, or some things I can do to help me decide? Right now I'm jumpin between the two and leveling them, trying to experience what I can of PvE and PvP.
If you want the ire of every healer then go Rogue. If not pick Warrior.
eh Ive never really seen a problem with slight itemisation issues.
Does it really matter that much if the mail version has slightly less int than the cloth version. The fact that you can use cloth/leather/mail also makes it more likely that you will get drops than the poor priest with just cloth.
Its less this, and more not feeling like waiting for mail to drop, when a nice peice of cloth is right there and no clothie needs it.
I was able to "gear up" my healing shaman VERY quick by doing tons of TOC and HTOC and taking cloth leather AND mail, since they were nice enough to cover almost every slot over the course of those three armor classes.
If I had stuck with mail, I would have maybe 3 slots. Thats it.
The way I interpreted the system to be is that if two people both roll need on an item, the person who has the same clothing type will win it. If say there is a piece of leather healing gear and you rolled need, you would get it before a hunter.
Was there ever a time when on your shaman you took a piece of cloth or leather only to get a piece of mail 5 minutes later? That is the problem they are trying to avoid. When that happens, the person of the higher armor class feels as though he has done nothing wrong and has every right to roll on whatever they can use. What I see them doing is denying others gear so they can advance themselves ie being selfish.
Yeah the way I read it was that you could still happily scoop cloth/leather but not over wearers of that type. In a 5 man as a healer changes you would have got exactly the same items unless there was a boomkin/spriest kicking around that wanted it for a second spec. The reduction in asshatery is worth it for the relatively few situations in which it might stop someone gearing up.
Dual specs will still be a bit of a spanner in the works but people bitching about main and offspec in 5 mans need to be taken out the back of the chemical sheds and shot. Yes I am rolling on the Edge of Ruin while I tank for you on my warrior. Would you like me to swap to my DPS spec while I loot it? Will that make you feel better?
Artemacus on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
The text specifically states that you can't need on lower armor classes:
Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item.
Of course, with a friendly group you can just have everyone pass and pick it up as a greed roll.
Leather is rarely good for plate DPS anyway due to bladed armor/armored to the teeth. Only paladins don't get AP from their armor value.
This is wholly untrue, the leather pieces carry hefty AP, Crit(Both from AP and Rating), ArP and Hit/Expertise. These are all good stats for plate dps.
Ap -> Armor is something to factor into the AP gain/loss of leather items.
Note: Leather is not nearly as good for plate wearers as it once was, but is by no means useless. It does, on occassion, surpass a Plate Piece of equal ilvl.
When I say "rarely good" I mean "rarely as good as an equivalent plate piece."
My DK got some leather upgrades, but that's because she was wearing quest greens and the leather pieces were epics from ToC5.
Regardless, I'm not really worried about the need before greed system causing enough issues for me to care. Bad groups could screw you out of gear before, and they still can, just in different ways. Big deal. Bad groups will be bad groups - there's nothing that can be done to completely stop that.
Not really. AtT is a nice bonus, especially since it's a 3 point tier 1 talent but it's not the be-all-end-all.
Plus, if you have Rating's Buster, it factors in the armor -> ap conversion to tell you if a piece of leather is better than a piece of plate. There aren't many pieces of leather in the game anymore that are better than the plate gear, but there's a few.
JustinSane07 on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
It'll be (largely) a non-issue in Cat anyway since Attack Power as a stat on items will be going away.
Low AP on plate? Plate has tons of AP, it's just from strength. Since strength benefits from kings, and in my case from improved berserker stance, it's drastically better, point-for-point, than AP.
Not to mention a lot of (nearly all) leather/mail melee DPS items have agility on them, which is a really, really expensive stat for the small amount of crit it gives, as a plate class. I also discounted mail items because physical DPS mail generally has a decent amount of int, which helps plate DPS with roughly nothing meaningful.
I never understood why Blizzard doesn't allow characters like $ or % in passwords. Oh well, they are at least better than my bank that told me my password was too long. o_O
My bank requires exactly six characters in the password. Yeah, thanks for making it easier by an order of magnitudes to bruteforce.
(you need to log in with an authenticator to actually do stuff with my money though.)
So no more plate or mail DPS rolling on leather, eh? Sweet.
If i understood it correctly, a plate user will be able to roll Need on the items but will have lesser priority against a class that uses it 'primarily'.
The text specifically states that you can't need on lower armor classes:
Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item.
Of course, with a friendly group you can just have everyone pass and pick it up as a greed roll.
Yeah, I kind of read this as "if its not in your need field, its a greed roll" meaning if you are mail and roll on leather, then if there is no leather wearer you will get the same roll as say, a hunter. Even if its spell gear.
If it is really completely smart, and it just reverts to the next priority on the list, then im fine. But I feel like its going to be if its not mail and no people of that armor class need it, you are rolling vs the rest of the raid for a shard/vendor trash.
I don't fully understand this enchanting roll on dungeon drops..
I imagine Need trumps everything, but how does the enchant roll and a regular greed roll work.
Is the enchant roll just a greed roll, but if you win instead of getting the item, you get the de result instead?
Or does greed/enchant trump one another somehow (ie need >> enchant >> greed). This doesn't seem right.
mfc144 on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
Is the enchant roll just a greed roll, but if you win instead of getting the item, you get the de result instead?
That is how I understood it.
So yes, if I as an enhancement Shaman roll greed on leather dps gear I compete against the mage that wants a shard. But as someone else said, bad groups could screw you out of loot before, they now just do it differently. The system is still better than just letting everyone roll Need on everything imo.
So if no one needs or greeds then it gets sharded.
That's the way i took it anyway. and makes the most sence to me.. Need for main spec, greed for offspecs, and shard for useless to anyone.
Gnutson on
Erai - Operative <--Imperial Double Agent--> Sniper - Eari
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
Well I beleive thats wrong. The way they described it, Need is for if you can use the item. Greed is for if you just want the money or shard it would produce.
I guess they werent clear on if rolling need on something out of your need table will defalult to REAL greed, as in shard if someone can DE, or if it will go to some special greed where it is given out to the winner. The former sucks for the Shaman example, but the latter would suck as it would basically be a workaround for the new greed system.
Actually there will be a third option to roll for disenchant.
Right but how does that 3rd roll play with the other rolls.
Hypothetical here, disregarding the new thing wrt plate can't roll on cloth and all that.
If noone selects Need. 3 people roll greed, and 2 roll disenchant. How does that work? Is the de roll just completely disregarded because not everyone chose it? Or does it do 3 greed rolls and 2 de rolls.. and the highest of all 5 gets the item. If the winner was a greed person they get the item, or if the winner was a de person they would get the shard?
I think I would prefer it to only do the de roll if everyone chooses that option. So it's basically a 3 tier system. Need before greed before de.
Posts
My server also uses Group Loot, but the difference is negligible, right? It's just that in NbG you automatically pass on items you can't use?
you also get difference levels of need based on armor type i think. If youre a priest and a holy pally wants that cloth chestpiece you get preference over him.
The fact that this will be the loot system for the cross server dungeons will be fantastic. Ninjas will be down 70%.
Kirel narak! I am Mal'Ganis. I AM ETERNAL!
It was kinda short but I still love that fight.
It kind of pisses me off that maces and other items I cannot use {leather, mail and plate spell power gear} is better than most of the gear I can use as a warlock
Hopefully with 3.3 lfg battlegroup I can get ifinish uldar or maybe get into an icecrown raid without the whole i'll be gear checking/achievement bs
I really don't want the TOC raid gear but it sucks for affliction
It would be neat if he helps and hinders us since he too wants to kill Arthas
I am so looking forward to the bug/lag clusterfuck that the next patch will bring with all the cross realm stuff. But then again, it'll make getting into the new Arthus stuff a friggin breeze.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
The fact you can ignore someone to never group with them is good shit. You basically are allowed control over your group.
The loot rules are perfect too. The only way someone could ninja shit is to roll for something they have a better peice than or already have. The whole not being able to downgrade to lower armor classes kinda sucks, especially for casters like Shamans because sans PVP there is basically no reason to need Armor, so stats are all that matters. But its a small price to pay.
I am looking forward to this with gusto. When I get to play, its often shitty times, so all the incentives + more people to group with makes my playtime easier.
Does it really matter that much if the mail version has slightly less int than the cloth version. The fact that you can use cloth/leather/mail also makes it more likely that you will get drops than the poor priest with just cloth.
So I'm at a crossroads. I'm going to be retiring my paladin before Cataclysm, and I've got two characters in the 70s to choose from for mynew main: Warrior or Rogue. Both Dwarves.
Basically I'm on the fence between being arms/tank spec, or being a commited dps and getting to stealth around things. On my pally, I'm ret/tank, but usually tanking. Pretty bored of the mechanics of a pally for tanking and ret, just feels oversimplified.
Any input on warrior vs rogue, or some things I can do to help me decide? Right now I'm jumpin between the two and leveling them, trying to experience what I can of PvE and PvP.
Its less this, and more not feeling like waiting for mail to drop, when a nice peice of cloth is right there and no clothie needs it.
I was able to "gear up" my healing shaman VERY quick by doing tons of TOC and HTOC and taking cloth leather AND mail, since they were nice enough to cover almost every slot over the course of those three armor classes.
If I had stuck with mail, I would have maybe 3 slots. Thats it.
Well PVE wise I think rogues might be a little more interesting DPS than warriors, but if you really wanna tank, Warriors are the funnestest.
As for PVP, both are effective IMO, but I think a rogue is a lot more entertaining, and a shitton more annoying to people.
Definetly two different play-styles.
I've found I had a lot of fun with my Rogue, simply because you can approach quests and whatnot from a different angle. The stealth is a big part of it... getting to your target without having to fight your way there. Quests tend to go faster, and levelling as a result of that.
If you want more utility, though, I'd go with the Warrior. Being a tank is nicer than having to always look for one, and you're bound to get more invites over the 15 DPS that are also looking for the same group. You'll have the option of more items, simply because you carry two different purposes. Rogue will get DPS leather... and... DPS leather.
I've had a great time with both of mine, and they're both my favorites so far. Then again, I've been a Rogue since Everquest, every game in-between, and since World of Warcraft's beta. I'll always be partial to Rogues
If you want the ire of every healer then go Rogue. If not pick Warrior.
The way I interpreted the system to be is that if two people both roll need on an item, the person who has the same clothing type will win it. If say there is a piece of leather healing gear and you rolled need, you would get it before a hunter.
Was there ever a time when on your shaman you took a piece of cloth or leather only to get a piece of mail 5 minutes later? That is the problem they are trying to avoid. When that happens, the person of the higher armor class feels as though he has done nothing wrong and has every right to roll on whatever they can use. What I see them doing is denying others gear so they can advance themselves ie being selfish.
but thats just me.
Dual specs will still be a bit of a spanner in the works but people bitching about main and offspec in 5 mans need to be taken out the back of the chemical sheds and shot. Yes I am rolling on the Edge of Ruin while I tank for you on my warrior. Would you like me to swap to my DPS spec while I loot it? Will that make you feel better?
Of course, with a friendly group you can just have everyone pass and pick it up as a greed roll.
I like your style.
It's a bit of a stretch though.
This is wholly untrue, the leather pieces carry hefty AP, Crit(Both from AP and Rating), ArP and Hit/Expertise. These are all good stats for plate dps.
Ap -> Armor is something to factor into the AP gain/loss of leather items.
Note: Leather is not nearly as good for plate wearers as it once was, but is by no means useless. It does, on occassion, surpass a Plate Piece of equal ilvl.
My DK got some leather upgrades, but that's because she was wearing quest greens and the leather pieces were epics from ToC5.
Regardless, I'm not really worried about the need before greed system causing enough issues for me to care. Bad groups could screw you out of gear before, and they still can, just in different ways. Big deal. Bad groups will be bad groups - there's nothing that can be done to completely stop that.
Plus, if you have Rating's Buster, it factors in the armor -> ap conversion to tell you if a piece of leather is better than a piece of plate. There aren't many pieces of leather in the game anymore that are better than the plate gear, but there's a few.
Not to mention a lot of (nearly all) leather/mail melee DPS items have agility on them, which is a really, really expensive stat for the small amount of crit it gives, as a plate class. I also discounted mail items because physical DPS mail generally has a decent amount of int, which helps plate DPS with roughly nothing meaningful.
My bank requires exactly six characters in the password. Yeah, thanks for making it easier by an order of magnitudes to bruteforce.
(you need to log in with an authenticator to actually do stuff with my money though.)
The way in which you type the password matters (delays between characters, speed, etc)
She also has to have an authentication e-mail sent to her for her to approve when it's done from a different PC.
A bit over the top, but pretty secure.
If i understood it correctly, a plate user will be able to roll Need on the items but will have lesser priority against a class that uses it 'primarily'.
Yeah, I kind of read this as "if its not in your need field, its a greed roll" meaning if you are mail and roll on leather, then if there is no leather wearer you will get the same roll as say, a hunter. Even if its spell gear.
If it is really completely smart, and it just reverts to the next priority on the list, then im fine. But I feel like its going to be if its not mail and no people of that armor class need it, you are rolling vs the rest of the raid for a shard/vendor trash.
I imagine Need trumps everything, but how does the enchant roll and a regular greed roll work.
Is the enchant roll just a greed roll, but if you win instead of getting the item, you get the de result instead?
Or does greed/enchant trump one another somehow (ie need >> enchant >> greed). This doesn't seem right.
So yes, if I as an enhancement Shaman roll greed on leather dps gear I compete against the mage that wants a shard. But as someone else said, bad groups could screw you out of loot before, they now just do it differently. The system is still better than just letting everyone roll Need on everything imo.
So if no one needs or greeds then it gets sharded.
That's the way i took it anyway. and makes the most sence to me.. Need for main spec, greed for offspecs, and shard for useless to anyone.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
I guess they werent clear on if rolling need on something out of your need table will defalult to REAL greed, as in shard if someone can DE, or if it will go to some special greed where it is given out to the winner. The former sucks for the Shaman example, but the latter would suck as it would basically be a workaround for the new greed system.
Right but how does that 3rd roll play with the other rolls.
Hypothetical here, disregarding the new thing wrt plate can't roll on cloth and all that.
If noone selects Need. 3 people roll greed, and 2 roll disenchant. How does that work? Is the de roll just completely disregarded because not everyone chose it? Or does it do 3 greed rolls and 2 de rolls.. and the highest of all 5 gets the item. If the winner was a greed person they get the item, or if the winner was a de person they would get the shard?
I think I would prefer it to only do the de roll if everyone chooses that option. So it's basically a 3 tier system. Need before greed before de.
Adding another step or 2nd roll just takes more time
Not 2 seperate rolls...
like this.
SephirothXX rolls greed : 57
AerisDies rolls greed: 52
NoobRogue rolls de : 98
MooTank rolls de : 5
PnzerMage rolls greed : 34
so NoobRogue wins the roll, and gets a shard.
Had the someone other than NoobRogue or MooTank won, they'd have just gotten the item.
Also I'm pretty sure you can only roll to DE an item if you have the ability to DE it.