Wait, you want them to put more PR people in between the engineers and the fans?
I ask because expecting them to only make accurate estimates seems to be holding them to a standard that requires a layer of PR folk to deliver. Software development is inherently messy. It's tough to predict what the outcome of a round of testing will be -- which is why testing is required in the first place.
Personally I'm glad for the unfiltered time estimates. Both opinions are certainly valid -- we're all right. It's a preference thing.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Wait, you want them to put more PR people in between the engineers and the fans?
I ask because expecting them to only make accurate estimates seems to be holding them to a standard that requires a layer of PR folk to deliver. Software development is inherently messy. It's tough to predict what the outcome of a round of testing will be -- which is why testing is required in the first place.
Personally I'm glad for the unfiltered time estimates.
unfiltered time estimates don't do much good if they're wrong.
Wait, you want them to put more PR people in between the engineers and the fans?
I ask because expecting them to only make accurate estimates seems to be holding them to a standard that requires a layer of PR folk to deliver. Software development is inherently messy. It's tough to predict what the outcome of a round of testing will be -- which is why testing is required in the first place.
Personally I'm glad for the unfiltered time estimates.
unfiltered time estimates don't do much good if they're wrong.
To be fair, being wrong occasionally is perfectly acceptable. That's not what's happening here.
They aren't useful for planning, no. They are useful as a statement that "at the time the estimate was delivered, they believed the demo would be released at time T."
Because when that time changes, the information content is higher. What might have caused them to change? It makes you think, and it makes you think different things depending on how well you trust Valve's engineering processes. Personally I think it's a sign that they care about quality, but unfortunately they aren't one of those companies that waits until the demo is rock solid, sets a date a week out, and then releases at a guaranteed safe date, long after they're ready.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Wait, you want them to put more PR people in between the engineers and the fans?
I ask because expecting them to only make accurate estimates seems to be holding them to a standard that requires a layer of PR folk to deliver. Software development is inherently messy. It's tough to predict what the outcome of a round of testing will be -- which is why testing is required in the first place.
Personally I'm glad for the unfiltered time estimates.
unfiltered time estimates don't do much good if they're wrong.
To be fair, being wrong occasionally is perfectly acceptable. That's not what's happening here.
3 times in a row does not qualify as occasionally.
Especially when it happened several times in a row last game. If you do not learn from mistakes in the past you are doom to repeat them.
Really wish they'd pull their heads out of their asses and stop low-balling their estimates just to get people excited.
Yeah, I'm sure they're deliberately underestimating the time to get people excited. :?
I'm pretty sure there are better ways of doing it than setting a time, waiting until that almost expires, setting another time just a bit after that, waiting until that expires...
Instead of keeping people waiting for the update to arrive they may as well just put "TBA" there, if they aren't certain they really oughtn't be putting times up there until they are. Doing it like this just annoys people and keeps them waiting. Yes, they're not doing it on purpose, but it's not like Valve don't have experience with this area from about a half-dozen other occasions where they kept announcing times and then not sticking to them.
If I'm to be completely honest, I'm not really annoyed, it's just another few hours for me. But I can't blame people for being irritated when Valve almost never seem to meet their own stated release times, sometimes for whole days.
What's this learning process you want them to accomplish though? Stop making mistakes?
Or you realize you can't stop them from making mistakes, but you want them to stop detecting them?
Or you realize that mistakes can be detected at any time, but you want them to stop reacting to detected mistakes and release anyway?
Or you realize that they have to stop a release if they detect a release, but you want them to stop making predictions about when they'll be done?
Or you realize that if they make predictions before things are set in stone, they might be wrong -- repeatedly, if there are more bugs than predicted?
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Actually my last post was a bit unfair to people. First, nobody expects people to be software development experts before posting on a forum. You don't have to understand the process, and I was kinda assuming that you do. Second, I think it's totally rational to say "I want them to stop making predictions before the release is set in stone. If there could possibly be a delay, continue merely referring to early demo access sometime before game release. Only after things are set in stone should a demo release date be set."
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
What's this learning process you want them to accomplish though? Stop making mistakes?
Or you realize you can't stop them from making mistakes, but you want them to stop detecting them?
Or you realize that mistakes can be detected at any time, but you want them to stop reacting to detected mistakes and release anyway?
Or you realize that they have to stop a release if they detect a release, but you want them to stop making predictions about when they'll be done?
Or you realize that if they make predictions before things are set in stone, they might be wrong -- repeatedly, if there are more bugs than predicted?
Your being being stupid.
I want them to set an achievable goal. Stop playing 'Almost There'. If they need another week to work on the demo. Say they need another week.
See question #2. You seem to want them to be capable of saying "I guarantee we have less than one week worth of bugs to fix" -- but we both know bugs can remain hidden longer than people expect.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case this is my bad.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Actually my last post was a bit unfair to people. First, nobody expects people to be software development experts before posting on a forum. You don't have to understand the process, and I was kinda assuming that you do. Second, I think it's totally rational to say "I want them to stop making predictions before the release is set in stone. If there could possibly be a delay, continue merely referring to early demo access sometime before game release. Only after things are set in stone should a demo release date be set."
First, I do.
Second, this is what I was freaking well saying.
EDIT: I mean it's possible that after the 360 release they found some bugs in the wild that needed sorting out, but at that point instead of playing "almost there" with the clock, they should've just switched it to "we'll update you when we know".
I should probably stop being so pushy about the sympathetic developer point of view, too. Sure I can understand why the mistakes are being made. The mistakes don't bother me, and that's fine. The mistakes do bother other people, and that's fine too. Contrary to my last few posts, I don't think people actually need to be sympathetic to their reasons for people to say "Valve please stop providing incorrect estimates." People don't need to understand the various things that can cause an estimate to be wrong, to make that request.
Sorry folks.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Then again, to be fair to Valve yet again . . . our information source is an event on a calendar with a date and time attached. If they miss their deadline, their choices are: update the time with the current engineer estimate, update the time far into the future to account for repeated delays (and let people be pleasantly surprised when it's available sooner), or don't update the time.
Edit: but see, people who wanted to hear "just tell me when it's done -- I don't want estimates that might be inaccurate" are already just passing time until it's released. Valve's method of communication to these folks is to make the Status thing no-longer say "Pre-load complete; unreleased".
For people who want updated estimates, fresh from the technical team, there's a calendar with a date and time, and blog posts, etc. But if you were already on the "stop giving me inaccurate estimates" team, you don't want those. You're waiting until it's released.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
What's this learning process you want them to accomplish though? Stop making mistakes?
Or you realize you can't stop them from making mistakes, but you want them to stop detecting them?
Or you realize that mistakes can be detected at any time, but you want them to stop reacting to detected mistakes and release anyway?
Or you realize that they have to stop a release if they detect a release, but you want them to stop making predictions about when they'll be done?
Or you realize that if they make predictions before things are set in stone, they might be wrong -- repeatedly, if there are more bugs than predicted?
Your being being stupid.
I want them to set an achievable goal. Stop playing 'Almost There'. If they need another week to work on the demo. Say they need another week.
See question #2. You seem to want them to be capable of saying "I guarantee we have less than one week worth of bugs to fix" -- but we both know bugs can remain hidden longer than people expect.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case this is my bad.
There may be bugs hidden for a long time, but the ones that keep the game from being playable are the ones that need to be addressed and should be given a reasonable time line.
When you work on a deadline and you give a date that you will be ready to give a presentation to your bosses.You don't wait until they're in the meeting room and keep telling them "just one more hour". You tell them well ahead of time that new issues have arisen and you need another week to deal with them.
Or, option 3 of actually communicate to the customers. It's not like over at Valve they're saying "Jeez we'd really like to tell our customers what's going on with the demo, but that damn event function on Steam won't let us! If only we had a website or blog to explain what was going on!"
My whole problem with this is that they keep pushing it back an hour. Then twelve. Then two hours. Then they just don't even bother to update.
I understand that they're probably working out some bugs, but then why even have this "early demo." It's like they're setting goals that they can't achieve. I don't mind if a demo is buggy to be perfectly honest. It's a demo.
I'll be over here, reporting all unusual activity, staying in my home, and waiting for official instructions.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
I don't know who Illuminatus is but he apparently has admin rights of the channel and he went on a banning spree. I think someone should look into that.
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
I don't know who Illuminatus is but he apparently has admin rights of the channel and he went on a banning spree. I think someone should look into that.
Yeah... Illum shouldn't really have banning powers...
edit: wait, I'm getting the story as we speak and its apparently not a black and white issue.
You're talking to the one or two guys who are freaking out, not the rest of us, right? I think there are other forums if you're trying to find people who are freaking out to communicate with.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Can't you just play the first one till the second comes out? It's basically the same game anyways.
I'm not sure I see anyone freaking out, although at the moment I think a lot of people are still waiting on it. I don't see any panic or anything just yet.
You're talking to the one or two guys who are freaking out, not the rest of us, right? I think there are other forums if you're trying to find people who are freaking out to communicate with.
Yeah, because no ones bitching about the late demo here right? Also, the armadeadon chat is filled with them. Crying over a late demo.
I for one welcome their misery, it fuels my time machine.
You're talking to the one or two guys who are freaking out, not the rest of us, right? I think there are other forums if you're trying to find people who are freaking out to communicate with.
Yeah, because no ones bitching about the late demo here right? Also, the armadeadon chat is filled with them. Crying over a late demo.
I for one welcome their misery, it fuels my time machine.
I'm happy for you?
I mean of course people are annoyed over the late demo, but I'm not quite sure what you're trying to drive at here.
subedii on
0
NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
We paid money for L4d2- early access to the demo is just gravy.
that said, I am tired of promises being broken. Though, I am glad that I haven't had to wait through my classes knowing l4d2 demo was available and I was unable to play it. That would have been torture.
I don't know who Illuminatus is but he apparently has admin rights of the channel and he went on a banning spree. I think someone should look into that.
Yeah... Illum shouldn't really have banning powers...
edit: wait, I'm getting the story as we speak and its apparently not a black and white issue.
The only grey is that someone was sitting in the channel while another (Arkan) person was constantly whining to have the person banned.
Goomba on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
I have to admit, if the story I heard about the situation is true, this will be my opinion on the matter. People need to grow up and just have a nice time together.
@Goomba: I'm going to need to hear the story from someone less biased than you, sorry mate- I... just kinda know how you get about things at times.
Posts
Yeah, I'm sure they're deliberately underestimating the time to get people excited. :?
It's not that they're delaying it, per se, because I'd rather they did that than it be buggy and crashing or whatever.
But that they keep lowballing their estimates.
I ask because expecting them to only make accurate estimates seems to be holding them to a standard that requires a layer of PR folk to deliver. Software development is inherently messy. It's tough to predict what the outcome of a round of testing will be -- which is why testing is required in the first place.
Personally I'm glad for the unfiltered time estimates. Both opinions are certainly valid -- we're all right. It's a preference thing.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
It makes perfect sense.
unfiltered time estimates don't do much good if they're wrong.
To be fair, being wrong occasionally is perfectly acceptable. That's not what's happening here.
Because when that time changes, the information content is higher. What might have caused them to change? It makes you think, and it makes you think different things depending on how well you trust Valve's engineering processes. Personally I think it's a sign that they care about quality, but unfortunately they aren't one of those companies that waits until the demo is rock solid, sets a date a week out, and then releases at a guaranteed safe date, long after they're ready.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
3 times in a row does not qualify as occasionally.
Especially when it happened several times in a row last game. If you do not learn from mistakes in the past you are doom to repeat them.
I'm pretty sure there are better ways of doing it than setting a time, waiting until that almost expires, setting another time just a bit after that, waiting until that expires...
Instead of keeping people waiting for the update to arrive they may as well just put "TBA" there, if they aren't certain they really oughtn't be putting times up there until they are. Doing it like this just annoys people and keeps them waiting. Yes, they're not doing it on purpose, but it's not like Valve don't have experience with this area from about a half-dozen other occasions where they kept announcing times and then not sticking to them.
If I'm to be completely honest, I'm not really annoyed, it's just another few hours for me. But I can't blame people for being irritated when Valve almost never seem to meet their own stated release times, sometimes for whole days.
Or you realize you can't stop them from making mistakes, but you want them to stop detecting them?
Or you realize that mistakes can be detected at any time, but you want them to stop reacting to detected mistakes and release anyway?
Or you realize that they have to stop a release if they detect a release, but you want them to stop making predictions about when they'll be done?
Or you realize that if they make predictions before things are set in stone, they might be wrong -- repeatedly, if there are more bugs than predicted?
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Your being being stupid.
I want them to set an achievable goal. Stop playing 'Almost There'. If they need another week to work on the demo. Say they need another week.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case this is my bad.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
First, I do.
Second, this is what I was freaking well saying.
EDIT: I mean it's possible that after the 360 release they found some bugs in the wild that needed sorting out, but at that point instead of playing "almost there" with the clock, they should've just switched it to "we'll update you when we know".
I should probably stop being so pushy about the sympathetic developer point of view, too. Sure I can understand why the mistakes are being made. The mistakes don't bother me, and that's fine. The mistakes do bother other people, and that's fine too. Contrary to my last few posts, I don't think people actually need to be sympathetic to their reasons for people to say "Valve please stop providing incorrect estimates." People don't need to understand the various things that can cause an estimate to be wrong, to make that request.
Sorry folks.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Edit: but see, people who wanted to hear "just tell me when it's done -- I don't want estimates that might be inaccurate" are already just passing time until it's released. Valve's method of communication to these folks is to make the Status thing no-longer say "Pre-load complete; unreleased".
For people who want updated estimates, fresh from the technical team, there's a calendar with a date and time, and blog posts, etc. But if you were already on the "stop giving me inaccurate estimates" team, you don't want those. You're waiting until it's released.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
There may be bugs hidden for a long time, but the ones that keep the game from being playable are the ones that need to be addressed and should be given a reasonable time line.
When you work on a deadline and you give a date that you will be ready to give a presentation to your bosses.You don't wait until they're in the meeting room and keep telling them "just one more hour". You tell them well ahead of time that new issues have arisen and you need another week to deal with them.
I understand that they're probably working out some bugs, but then why even have this "early demo." It's like they're setting goals that they can't achieve. I don't mind if a demo is buggy to be perfectly honest. It's a demo.
then you'd probably care
I have guns, I'm ready.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Can't you just play the first one till the second comes out? It's basically the same game anyways.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
Yeah... Illum shouldn't really have banning powers...
edit: wait, I'm getting the story as we speak and its apparently not a black and white issue.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
I'm not sure I see anyone freaking out, although at the moment I think a lot of people are still waiting on it. I don't see any panic or anything just yet.
I for one welcome their misery, it fuels my time machine.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
I'm happy for you?
I mean of course people are annoyed over the late demo, but I'm not quite sure what you're trying to drive at here.
We paid money for L4d2- early access to the demo is just gravy.
that said, I am tired of promises being broken. Though, I am glad that I haven't had to wait through my classes knowing l4d2 demo was available and I was unable to play it. That would have been torture.
Edit: Dammit Nappuccino, way to beat me to the punch.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
PSN:Missing_a_legg
I have to admit, if the story I heard about the situation is true, this will be my opinion on the matter. People need to grow up and just have a nice time together.
@Goomba: I'm going to need to hear the story from someone less biased than you, sorry mate- I... just kinda know how you get about things at times.