Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Wappadu wrote: »
    The one thing that bugs me above everything else as this series concludes is the lack of respect that 90% of Jordan's world shows to the impending Last Battle and even the Dark One itself. The various infighting between and inside of nations made for some good reading in the earlier books, but my suspension of disbelief regarding what motivates some of these people is wearing very thin now at the end.

    We read hundreds of pages worth of planning for how some ruler or power bloc is trying to be positioned following the Last Battle, but I'll be damned if they've got more than a one sheet memo for Tarmon Gaidon, probably nothing more than:

    "Stab any Trolloc we see. Shoot any Fade we see. Bend over for anything scarier and hope the Dragon has it won by then."

    Food stores going bad overnight and 9 out of 10 farms failing should be enough of a wake-up call for anybody to re-evaluate their priorities. These characters have that, plus honest to god monster attacks, ungodly weather, and to top it off "bubbles of evil" that murder entire towns are well known and documented occurrences.

    Am I naive to expect these characters to be acting differently? Maybe the Forsaken and darkfriends have been a lot more effective at sowing chaos than we've been shown so far, or maybe these people just put that much faith in the Dragon Reborn, but their preparation has just been appallingly half-hearted.

    See, I think it's quite realistic for the nobles to be acting the way they are. Most of them have met the Dragon Reborn, they recognize him as such, and to them the last battle is already won. Now they just have to stay as far from the fighting as possible and grab whatever land they can once the fighting's over.

    The basic thought process is "Why should I put myself in harm's way when everybody else is going to be fighting?"

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  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

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  • SparserLogicSparserLogic Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Not to mention that a ton of people are living in denial.

    Heck, even in the most recent book people are still squabbling about whether or not Rand is the DR.

    How would you react right now if someone told you Jesus was back and the Rapture was coming? Unless you're really, really, really religious you'd just laugh at them, write it off, and go on living your life. Thats exactly what is going on here except some people are beginning to believe simply because they are having a hard time ignoring all of the horrible things that are happening.

    SparserLogic on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.

    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

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  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Taramoor wrote: »
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

    I missed that he did that... where was that talked about?

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  • SparserLogicSparserLogic Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Taramoor wrote: »
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

    I missed that he did that... where was that talked about?

    The first three books? He was the guy that wasn't trapped and spent the following 1?000 years doing bad shit and going crazy.

    SparserLogic on
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Taramoor wrote: »
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

    I missed that he did that... where was that talked about?

    The first three books? He was the guy that wasn't trapped and spent the following 1?000 years doing bad shit and going crazy.

    I remember none of that being talked about then though... I'm so confused.

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  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Taramoor wrote: »
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

    I missed that he did that... where was that talked about?

    The first three books? He was the guy that wasn't trapped and spent the following 1?000 years doing bad shit and going crazy.

    I remember none of that being talked about then though... I'm so confused.

    It was mostly before rand learned to ward his dreams, and you have to assume that Ishy is telling the truth, rather than just playing mind games.

    Aether on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Wappadu wrote: »
    The one thing that bugs me above everything else as this series concludes is the lack of respect that 90% of Jordan's world shows to the impending Last Battle and even the Dark One itself. The various infighting between and inside of nations made for some good reading in the earlier books, but my suspension of disbelief regarding what motivates some of these people is wearing very thin now at the end.

    We read hundreds of pages worth of planning for how some ruler or power bloc is trying to be positioned following the Last Battle, but I'll be damned if they've got more than a one sheet memo for Tarmon Gaidon, probably nothing more than:

    "Stab any Trolloc we see. Shoot any Fade we see. Bend over for anything scarier and hope the Dragon has it won by then."

    Food stores going bad overnight and 9 out of 10 farms failing should be enough of a wake-up call for anybody to re-evaluate their priorities. These characters have that, plus honest to god monster attacks, ungodly weather, and to top it off "bubbles of evil" that murder entire towns are well known and documented occurrences.

    Am I naive to expect these characters to be acting differently? Maybe the Forsaken and darkfriends have been a lot more effective at sowing chaos than we've been shown so far, or maybe these people just put that much faith in the Dragon Reborn, but their preparation has just been appallingly half-hearted.

    It's incredibly infuriating, and I think that's because it's pretty realistic. I'd say half of the awful things that have happened in the books so far have come not from the evil of darkfriends or the plottings of the Forsaken, but from ordinary people doing either what they think is right (Elaida, Whitecloaks, Seanchan) or what they think will benefit them (most of the other "villains").

    It's especially bothersome when it's people holding back crucial pieces of information that would clear up a lot of things and they do it out of simple human stupidity, pride, or other things that are the kind of dumb things a real person might.

    Hell, I'm on book 8 right now, and was immediately infuriated getting to the part where Morgase meets up with Perrin and for some reason decides, rather than disclose who she is to this important ally of the one man who can save the world and has an interest in her daughter (who she still thinks is in the White Tower), she'll just pretend to be an ordinary person of no particular importance. So many moments that eventually go poorly for the good guys do so only because someone makes a stupid, selfish decision without enough information.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Aether wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    No, it's actually fairly smart and even more unusual very realistic.

    People in power hate giving up even a fraction of it, even in the face of the absolute certainty of the situation.

    The only Forsaken who did a good job stirring up political trouble were Moradin (who had the luxury of being free for large periods of time) and probably Demandred. I guess you could count Asmodean with his influence of the Shaido if you really wanted to.

    New queen of andor what?

    I knew I forgot someone. Yeah, he did a great job.

    Well, the tally of Forsakens:

    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.

    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.

    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.

    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.

    Overall I think they drove the narrative pretty hard for quite a while.

    I missed that he did that... where was that talked about?

    The first three books? He was the guy that wasn't trapped and spent the following 1?000 years doing bad shit and going crazy.

    I remember none of that being talked about then though... I'm so confused.

    It was mostly before rand learned to ward his dreams, and you have to assume that Ishy is telling the truth, rather than just playing mind games.

    He may not remember it because he's referred to as Baalzamon for that entire time, and the books spend very little time making clear that Baalzamon = Ishamael.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    He basically convinced Artur Hawkwing, our resident arthurian legend counterpart, that the Aies Sedai were evil and not to be trusted, even when their healing could have prevented him from dying. He instills this hatred on his son whom he sends with a giant fleet across the ocean, eventually becoming the seanchan. He also changes their version of the prophecies to include the nonsense about bowing before the crystal throne.

    Oh and they mention very briefly that he also formed the Black Ajah and started the Trolloc Wars.

    Pretty damn successful for an insane dude.

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  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    He basically convinced Artur Hawkwing, our resident arthurian legend counterpart, that the Aies Sedai were evil and not to be trusted, even when their healing could have prevented him from dying. He instills this hatred on his son whom he sends with a giant fleet across the ocean, eventually becoming the seanchan. He also changes their version of the prophecies to include the nonsense about bowing before the crystal throne.

    Oh and they mention very briefly that he also formed the Black Ajah and started the Trolloc Wars.

    Pretty damn successful for an insane dude.

    I missed most of that... was that a prelude or something? I tended to blow through them.

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  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    He basically convinced Artur Hawkwing, our resident arthurian legend counterpart, that the Aies Sedai were evil and not to be trusted, even when their healing could have prevented him from dying. He instills this hatred on his son whom he sends with a giant fleet across the ocean, eventually becoming the seanchan. He also changes their version of the prophecies to include the nonsense about bowing before the crystal throne.

    Oh and they mention very briefly that he also formed the Black Ajah and started the Trolloc Wars.

    Pretty damn successful for an insane dude.

    I missed most of that... was that a prelude or something? I tended to blow through them.

    Nope, main series. But earlyish.

    Aether on
  • SparserLogicSparserLogic Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    He basically convinced Artur Hawkwing, our resident arthurian legend counterpart, that the Aies Sedai were evil and not to be trusted, even when their healing could have prevented him from dying. He instills this hatred on his son whom he sends with a giant fleet across the ocean, eventually becoming the seanchan. He also changes their version of the prophecies to include the nonsense about bowing before the crystal throne.

    Oh and they mention very briefly that he also formed the Black Ajah and started the Trolloc Wars.

    Pretty damn successful for an insane dude.

    I missed most of that... was that a prelude or something? I tended to blow through them.

    They don't come out and say it. You have to pay attention to every tiny detail.

    Most of the subplot isn't even obvious without multiple readings.

    SparserLogic on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Like the whole bit with Shara.

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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Like the whole bit with Shara.

    What bit with Shara? I was always bitter how little information we got about the place aside from a few details during one or two Forsaken meetings.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Is it just me, or does it feel like Sanderson isn't very comfortable with Rand's triple wife deal? There's been a lot of focus on his relationship with Min, but Rand didn't see Elayne or mention Aviendha at all. I know much of that bias is just due to Min being the one near him at the moment, but so far it feels like Sanderson is treating Min as Rand's one true love and the other two as just some girls Rand occasionally slept with.

    Cantide on
  • galenbladegalenblade Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Cantide wrote: »
    Is it just me, or does it feel like Sanderson isn't very comfortable with Rand's triple wife deal? There's been a lot of focus on his relationship with Min, but Rand didn't see Elayne or mention Aviendha at all. I know much of that bias is just due to Min being the one near him at the moment, but so far it feels like Sanderson is treating Min as Rand's one true love and the other two as just some girls Rand occasionally slept with.

    To be fair, that was mostly Jordan as well. Min's been more or less at Rand's side since Lord of Chaos, while Elayne and Aviendha have been off doing their own thing.

    galenblade on
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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Lets do a bit of an update on the forsaken list:
    Spoiler space has Spoilers for ToM.
    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Now Mordin. Hes definately still around and involved in this.

    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.
    Reborn as Cyndane. currently mordins or sadars pet. Pretty much assured to be involved in the final book but unknown exactly how.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.


    Possibly could be brought in as a surprise move.


    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.
    Unknown for sure. he either was balefired by rand or eaten by shadar logoths fog, or he escaped. No solid evidence.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.
    Possibly killed during the clenseing...however still speculation if shes alive. At best shes a pet of mordin.



    Highly unlikely to return


    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.
    Died by fire from an ashaman...ressurectible but given he had two chances, i dont think the DO gives third chances.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.
    Currently being raped forever by Shadar Hadran. Unlikely to be seen again for failing too many times.


    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.
    Died to Grendael...known how he died but considered a traitor so unlikely to be ressurected by the dark one

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.
    Drooling idiot... Unlikely return.


    No chance in hell of returning:



    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.
    Balefired by rand. Unrecoverable.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.
    Balefired by ubrerand. Unrecoverable.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.
    Died to balefire by moraine. Unrecoverable.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.
    Balefired to death by ubre-Rand. Unrecoverable.



    Hum. Im going by my memory, which should be good considering how many times ive read through the series...if there are any corrections i welcome them. I find it interesting now that i look at this list just how dwindled the forsaken list is. a maximum of 5 possibly survive at this point and lanfear is unlikely to be eager to rejoin the DO at this point. I think its more likely that Morin and Demandred are the only ones that are going to be a real threat (Unless sammael has just been hiding somewhere and pops out of left field)...and in a way i wonder if Morin might even be forced to fight on rands side due to his connection to rand.

    azith28 on
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  • LorekLorek Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    azith28 wrote: »
    Lets do a bit of an update on the forsaken list:
    Spoiler space has Spoilers for ToM.
    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Now Mordin. Hes definately still around and involved in this.

    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.
    Reborn as Seline, currently mordins or sadars pet. Pretty much assured to be involved in the final book but unknown exactly how.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.


    Possibly could be brought in as a surprise move.


    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.
    Unknown for sure. he either was balefired by rand or eaten by shadar logoths fog, or he escaped. No solid evidence.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.
    Possibly killed during the clenseing...however still speculation if shes alive. At best shes a pet of mordin.



    Highly unlikely to return


    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.
    Died by fire from an ashaman...ressurectible but given he had two chances, i dont think the DO gives third chances.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.
    Currently being raped forever by Shadar Hadran. Unlikely to be seen again for failing too many times.


    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.
    Died to Grendael...known how he died but considered a traitor so unlikely to be ressurected by the dark one



    No chance in hell of returning:


    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.
    Balefired by ubre rand. Unrecoverable.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.
    Balefired by rand. Unrecoverable.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.
    Balefired by ubrerand. Unrecoverable.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.
    Died to balefire by moraine. Unrecoverable.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.
    Balefired to death by ubre-Rand. Unrecoverable.



    Hum. Im going by my memory, which should be good considering how many times ive read through the series...if there are any corrections i welcome them. I find it interesting now that i look at this list just how dwindled the forsaken list is. a maximum of 5 possibly survive at this point and lanfear is unlikely to be eager to rejoin the DO at this point. I think its more likely that Morin and Demandred are the only ones that are going to be a real threat (Unless sammael has just been hiding somewhere and pops out of left field)...and in a way i wonder if Morin might even be forced to fight on rands side due to his connection to rand.
    Mesaana: I don't think she's been balefired; she's unrecoverable because she's not dead, Mary Sue just broke her mind. She's a drooling idiot now.

    Asmodean also has some credit to him. He gave Couladin his double dragon tattoos, resulting in the Shaido rebellion. Also one of the few Forsaken to ever come close to killing Rand, distracting him while running off to get the Choeden Kal from Rhuidean and almost making it. Giving a few more minute lead in Rhuidean would likely have turned traitor Asmodean into Nae'bliss Asmodean.

    Sammael also turned the leftover Shaido from an easily found army for Rand to smash into small pockets spread about the continent, making them way more annoying and harder to get rid of.

    Lorek on
  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Lorek wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    Lets do a bit of an update on the forsaken list:
    Spoiler space has Spoilers for ToM.
    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Now Mordin. Hes definately still around and involved in this.

    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.
    Reborn as Seline, currently mordins or sadars pet. Pretty much assured to be involved in the final book but unknown exactly how.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.


    Possibly could be brought in as a surprise move.


    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.
    Unknown for sure. he either was balefired by rand or eaten by shadar logoths fog, or he escaped. No solid evidence.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.
    Possibly killed during the clenseing...however still speculation if shes alive. At best shes a pet of mordin.



    Highly unlikely to return


    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.
    Died by fire from an ashaman...ressurectible but given he had two chances, i dont think the DO gives third chances.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.
    Currently being raped forever by Shadar Hadran. Unlikely to be seen again for failing too many times.


    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.
    Died to Grendael...known how he died but considered a traitor so unlikely to be ressurected by the dark one



    No chance in hell of returning:


    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.
    Balefired by ubre rand. Unrecoverable.

    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.
    Balefired by rand. Unrecoverable.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.
    Balefired by ubrerand. Unrecoverable.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.
    Died to balefire by moraine. Unrecoverable.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.
    Balefired to death by ubre-Rand. Unrecoverable.



    Hum. Im going by my memory, which should be good considering how many times ive read through the series...if there are any corrections i welcome them. I find it interesting now that i look at this list just how dwindled the forsaken list is. a maximum of 5 possibly survive at this point and lanfear is unlikely to be eager to rejoin the DO at this point. I think its more likely that Morin and Demandred are the only ones that are going to be a real threat (Unless sammael has just been hiding somewhere and pops out of left field)...and in a way i wonder if Morin might even be forced to fight on rands side due to his connection to rand.
    Mesaana: I don't think she's been balefired; she's unrecoverable because she's not dead, Mary Sue just broke her mind. She's a drooling idiot now.

    Asmodean also has some credit to him. He gave Couladin his double dragon tattoos, resulting in the Shaido rebellion. Also one of the few Forsaken to ever come close to killing Rand, distracting him while running off to get the Choeden Kal from Rhuidean and almost making it. Giving a few more minute lead in Rhuidean would likely have turned traitor Asmodean into Nae'bliss Asmodean.

    Sammael also turned the leftover Shaido from an easily found army for Rand to smash into small pockets spread about the continent, making them way more annoying and harder to get rid of.

    Quite correct, i applied semierges death twice. moved her to the unlikely column.

    Also, shouldnt that be "Mary Rand" :)

    azith28 on
    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    azith28 wrote: »
    Lets do a bit of an update on the forsaken list:
    Spoiler space has Spoilers for ToM.
    Ishamael: Screwed with everybody, constantly, through the entire series and for 3,000 years prior. Set up the Seanchan to eventually undermine the entirety of Randland.
    Now Mordin. Hes definately still around and involved in this.

    Lanfear: Removed Moiraine from the equation, still driving Rand a little crazy. Responsible for a whole hell of lot.
    Reborn as Seline, currently mordins or sadars pet. Pretty much assured to be involved in the final book but unknown exactly how.

    Demandred: Who the fuck knows.


    Possibly could be brought in as a surprise move.


    Sammael: Ran Illian for quite a while.
    Unknown for sure. he either was balefired by rand or eaten by shadar logoths fog, or he escaped. No solid evidence.

    Moghedian: Is she dead yet? I don't remember.
    Possibly killed during the clenseing...however still speculation if shes alive. At best shes a pet of mordin.



    Highly unlikely to return


    Aginor: Died book 1. Reborn as Osan'gar. Masqueraded as an Asha'man until he died during the cleansing.
    Died by fire from an ashaman...ressurectible but given he had two chances, i dont think the DO gives third chances.

    Graendal: Threw Arad Doman into utter chaos by capturing the king and everybody else who caught her fancy.
    Currently being raped forever by Shadar Hadran. Unlikely to be seen again for failing too many times.


    Asmodean: Did nothing of note except die.
    Died to Grendael...known how he died but considered a traitor so unlikely to be ressurected by the dark one

    Mesaana: Behind the breaking of the White Tower. Pretty impressive. Unfortunately Egwene is a Mary Sue, so that got undone.
    Drooling idiot... Unlikely return.


    No chance in hell of returning:



    Rahvin: Is the root cause of every single Morgase chapter from books five onward, and the majority of the chapters from Elayne's POV, that's pretty evil.
    Balefired by rand. Unrecoverable.

    Semirhage: Created the majority of the Tuon drama and is behind quite a bit of the Seanchan problem.
    Balefired by ubrerand. Unrecoverable.

    Be'lal: Screwed up Tear something fierce until Rand showed up.
    Died to balefire by moraine. Unrecoverable.

    Balthamel: Died in book 1, reborn as Aran'gar, did a number on Egwene and the Aes Sedai in Salidar for quite a while.
    Balefired to death by ubre-Rand. Unrecoverable.



    Hum. Im going by my memory, which should be good considering how many times ive read through the series...if there are any corrections i welcome them. I find it interesting now that i look at this list just how dwindled the forsaken list is. a maximum of 5 possibly survive at this point and lanfear is unlikely to be eager to rejoin the DO at this point. I think its more likely that Morin and Demandred are the only ones that are going to be a real threat (Unless sammael has just been hiding somewhere and pops out of left field)...and in a way i wonder if Morin might even be forced to fight on rands side due to his connection to rand.
    Lanfear was reborn as Cyndane (unless it's changed in ToM, I haven't read it yet). Selene was just the name she used in The Great Hunt.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    fixed

    azith28 on
    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Worst TOTP ever, I'm just saying.

    I'd forgotten about Sammael shipping the Shaido all over everywhere.

    Robert Jordan stated in an interview that being killed by Mashadar made him ineligible for rebirth into a new body, though.

    I don't think any of the Forsaken that are currently dead will be coming back. Leaving us with
    Graendal, Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, and Demandred. Also, with Graendal being sentenced to an eternity of rape, I doubt she'll be doing a whole lot.

    I'm somewhat annoyed at the number of wildcards left in play, but at the same time they may make for exciting stuff. Slayer/Isam/Luc isn't dead, I don't think, meaning he'll show up. Demandred is still a mystery. And the big one, Fain, is off raising an army of zombie Trollocs to do who the hell knows.

    Next book should be fun.

    Taramoor on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I'm hoping those aren't blatant spoilers for Towers of Midnight right there.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    shadowane wrote: »
    I'm hoping those aren't blatant spoilers for Towers of Midnight right there.

    The stuff inside the spoiler tag is. not whats outside it.

    azith28 on
    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    azith28 wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    I'm hoping those aren't blatant spoilers for Towers of Midnight right there.

    The stuff inside the spoiler tag is. not whats outside it.

    There was no spoiler tag when I said that. :P

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So I just read this. The guys get better, (most of) the women are still stupid. Will someone please slap Elayne and Egwene, argh.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • stfuadstfuad Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So, when does the last book come out?

    stfuad on
  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Elayne and Egwene will forever smooth their skirts over their delicious, curvy, bodies till the thread of time unravels.

    Casually Hardcore on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    stfuad wrote: »
    So, when does the last book come out?

    I think March 2012 or November 2012. Sanderson said there would be about a year and a half between them instead of the year because he couldn't kill himself writing like that anymore.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • galenbladegalenblade Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    stfuad wrote: »
    So, when does the last book come out?

    March 2012, according to Sanderson. He got a bit burned out doing one book a year, and the last book was going to be the toughest of them all to write. So he took 2 months off after ToM, and is now doing a full reread before getting back into it.

    galenblade on
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  • stfuadstfuad Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Damn.

    stfuad on
  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    This book was great. So many good moments. I don't even care about the 'Mary Sue' stuff or any of the other complaints about the typical crazy Jordan stuff. Lots of cool stuff happened and I loved it.

    Reynolds on
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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm getting ever closer to actually being able to read this book. About 25% through Knife of Dreams now and it's killing me. I want to read it :(

    Vincent Grayson on
  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Love the fact that the ebook has publisher set pricing so will cost twice as much as the hardback is currently available for and that it is releasing a full 3 months after the HB came out.

    Adda on
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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Seriously? What a ripoff. Charging twice as much they should edit out Egwene and Elayne.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    It doesn't help us, but Sanderson is really annoyed by this behavior and has said he's looking into it. Unfortunately Jordan's wife seems to be sort of terrible with this stuff as does his publisher.

    edit: Wait, what country are you talking about? It's $12.99 in the US whereas the hardcover is $16.24.

    shadowane on
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