Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Good lord, this just keeps getting more insane! And I don't at all understand the complaints about Mat in book 12, he seems if anything, a much more interesting character now that he has far better dialogue.

    /shudder

    What's this supposed to mean? I only ask because I'm most of the way through at this point and it seems like virtually every character is enjoying far better dialogue than I can recall in any of the previous books. Mat's just stood out because he finally sounds like the less-serious "normal" guy I felt like Jordan kept trying to claim he was without it ever feeling that way.

    Mat sounds like a fucking caricature of himself for big swaths of TGS. He sounds nothing like himself and more like Sanderson trying to make him a funny guy without getting the characters style of humor at all.

    And there's lots of cringe-worthy, extremely anachronistic dialogue in both of Sanderson's WOT entries. Like people calling each other "Pal", which is one I remember from both books.

    Yes, the entire "elaborate backstory" scene in TGS is hilarious, but it feels completely out of character for everyone involved.

    Mat is much better in Book 13 but still not quite. I love both of Sanderson's entries, they're fast-paced, they resolve things, and the characters actually tell each other things, but we'll never know what was really going to happen. That whole scene with Aviendha in the Waste when random expository character appears is just terribad.

    Taramoor on
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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I assume they're going to explain that random person. Somehow.

    Bubble of evil? Random Forsaken screwing with her? Time travel?

    Reynolds on
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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Reynolds wrote: »
    I assume they're going to explain that random person. Somehow.

    Bubble of evil? Random Forsaken screwing with her? Time travel?

    I think "cameo from one of Sanderson's books" sums it up quite nicely.

    Taramoor on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Does anyone know if that was a Jordan or a Sanderson scene? I know you all like to blame Sanderson for everything but it seems like a really random scent to make up.

    shadowane on
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  • physi_marcphysi_marc Positron Tracker Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Reynolds wrote: »
    I assume they're going to explain that random person. Somehow.

    Bubble of evil? Random Forsaken screwing with her? Time travel?

    I think "cameo from one of Sanderson's books" sums it up quite nicely.

    I'm pretty sure he confirmed it was not a cameo from his books on his Twitter feed or on some other Q&A.

    EDIT: If you were thinking of Hoid, he confirmed that it was not him
    @spencerpanger Why is Hoid trying to restore the pattern?

    Brandon Sanderson: Lol. Hoid has no involvement in anything WoT. :)

    Source.

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  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Reynolds wrote: »
    I assume they're going to explain that random person. Somehow.

    Bubble of evil? Random Forsaken screwing with her? Time travel?

    I think "cameo from one of Sanderson's books" sums it up quite nicely.

    I think you mean Verin, because its pretty obviously her.

    Z0re on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Woo! Plowed through until 2 am last night finishing the book...and now I'm stuck waiting for my copy of ToM to arrive. I think this is the first time, possibly in the history of the entire series that I've finished a book and felt like "Oh fuck I need to read the next one right now."

    It wasn't necessarily a cliffhanger ending so much as just so many things going on that I simply must know where they're all going.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • BlurblBlurbl -_- Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Man, I never throught Sanderson wrote Mat wrong, I just saw it as awsome character development.

    Blurbl on
  • sterling3763sterling3763 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Woo! Plowed through until 2 am last night finishing the book...and now I'm stuck waiting for my copy of ToM to arrive. I think this is the first time, possibly in the history of the entire series that I've finished a book and felt like "Oh fuck I need to read the next one right now."

    It wasn't necessarily a cliffhanger ending so much as just so many things going on that I simply must know where they're all going.

    If the ending of Lords of Chaos didn't make you want the sequel right then and there you are broken inside. Haven't read that it in ages and I still remember the last line of that book.
    Taim instructing the Aes Sedai to kneel or they will be knelt.

    sterling3763 on
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Woo! Plowed through until 2 am last night finishing the book...and now I'm stuck waiting for my copy of ToM to arrive. I think this is the first time, possibly in the history of the entire series that I've finished a book and felt like "Oh fuck I need to read the next one right now."

    It wasn't necessarily a cliffhanger ending so much as just so many things going on that I simply must know where they're all going.

    If the ending of Lords of Chaos didn't make you want the sequel right then and there you are broken inside. Haven't read that it in ages and I still remember the last line of that book.
    Taim instructing the Aes Sedai to kneel or they will be knelt.

    For some reason the line I always remember from that book:

    "Asha'man. Kill."

    Taramoor on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    shryke on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    nightmarenny on
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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Taramoor on
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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    nightmarenny on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    Except that's not what would happen and would go against the entire theme of the series.

    The reactions we got, while frustrating to the reader sometimes, are exactly the kind that should have happened.

    Nobody knew what actually happened and just made their best assumptions based on what they knew.

    shryke on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    Except that's not what would happen and would go against the entire theme of the series.

    The reactions we got, while frustrating to the reader sometimes, are exactly the kind that should have happened.

    Nobody knew what actually happened and just made their best assumptions based on what they knew.

    I don't mean that those moment should have been different. I'm saying they shouldn't have appeared. It was a complete waste of time.

    nightmarenny on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    It wasn't a complete waste of time at all. I mean, someone was channeling the biggest amount of Saidin and Saidar ever, for hours. Everyone on the entire planet could feel it. People were gonna react. No reactions would have been weird.

    shryke on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    Except that's not what would happen and would go against the entire theme of the series.

    The reactions we got, while frustrating to the reader sometimes, are exactly the kind that should have happened.

    Nobody knew what actually happened and just made their best assumptions based on what they knew.

    The vast majority of the main cast is within a couple minutes of effort of finding a male channeler.

    But apparently the fact that Traveling can be used to maintain lines of communication has not fucking occurred to anyone.

    HamHamJ on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    Except that's not what would happen and would go against the entire theme of the series.

    The reactions we got, while frustrating to the reader sometimes, are exactly the kind that should have happened.

    Nobody knew what actually happened and just made their best assumptions based on what they knew.

    The vast majority of the main cast is within a couple minutes of effort of finding a male channeler.

    But apparently the fact that Traveling can be used to maintain lines of communication has not fucking occurred to anyone.

    No, they aren't. Very few of them can contact male channelers they'd trust or wouldn't be scared of and that's even assuming they'd believe them and assumes the male channeler would even know wtf happened.

    Even the Asha'man don't really believe it was Rand and most people wouldn't trust their word on it being cleansed.

    shryke on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The ending of Winter's Heart was the biggest "Holy shit, I must read the next book" ending in the series.

    And then RJ managed to completely ruin it. He got it close "the fans will want to see peoples reaction to the cleansing" is very close to "The fans will want to see peoples reaction to the Cleansing of saidin".

    The trouble was the entirety of book ten taking place during the last two chapters of book nine.

    So we had all this awesome important crap that happened in book nine and then... nothing... it's a bajillion pages of reactions with maybe two important moments in the entire thing.

    Its not just that. Its that the reactions were all "holy shit do you feel that? I'm afraid but I don't think we should get involved". What everyone wanted was the exact dynamic that the first half had except at least six hours in the future. I wanted to know how everyone would react to Channeling becoming safe for everyone.

    Except that's not what would happen and would go against the entire theme of the series.

    The reactions we got, while frustrating to the reader sometimes, are exactly the kind that should have happened.

    Nobody knew what actually happened and just made their best assumptions based on what they knew.

    The vast majority of the main cast is within a couple minutes of effort of finding a male channeler.

    But apparently the fact that Traveling can be used to maintain lines of communication has not fucking occurred to anyone.

    Its been roughly six months since travelling began to disseminate into the world. About two months since it became widespread enough to be barely usable for this purpose if we're feeling generous. Its also requires a lot of strength in the one power. Nobody currently has the resources to set up an efficient travelling network for communication everywhere because of the way the channelers are distributed. Taim's corralling and the White Tower's infighting alone have made it an impossibility up until now.

    Since the White Tower situation is over we've already begun to see a rudimentary network setup anyways, granted its mostly confined to Caemlyn and Tar Valon but it exists. Another six months and everywhere would probably be connected. They've just run out of time.

    Z0re on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Woo! Plowed through until 2 am last night finishing the book...and now I'm stuck waiting for my copy of ToM to arrive. I think this is the first time, possibly in the history of the entire series that I've finished a book and felt like "Oh fuck I need to read the next one right now."

    It wasn't necessarily a cliffhanger ending so much as just so many things going on that I simply must know where they're all going.

    If the ending of Lords of Chaos didn't make you want the sequel right then and there you are broken inside. Haven't read that it in ages and I still remember the last line of that book.
    Taim instructing the Aes Sedai to kneel or they will be knelt.

    Honestly, with LoC I was just so awestruck that nothing even close to "I must read next book" was present in my mind.

    With this one, it was more like "Holy shit, this has implications and I must know what happens now!"

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    It wasn't a complete waste of time at all. I mean, someone was channeling the biggest amount of Saidin and Saidar ever, for hours. Everyone on the entire planet could feel it. People were gonna react. No reactions would have been weird.

    I think he means that obviously there would be reactions, but since all the reactions were uninteresting and predictable and did not advance the story, it was poor writing to choose to include them.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    It wasn't a complete waste of time at all. I mean, someone was channeling the biggest amount of Saidin and Saidar ever, for hours. Everyone on the entire planet could feel it. People were gonna react. No reactions would have been weird.

    I think he means that obviously there would be reactions, but since all the reactions were uninteresting and predictable and did not advance the story, it was poor writing to choose to include them.

    "Uninteresting" I'll leave alone cause it's a go nowhere argument, but how were they predictable?

    And the only thing that would have been poor writing would have been to not mention people's reactions to the biggest use of the One Power of the entire Age and probably the last one too.

    shryke on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't think anyone is suggesting there should have been no response. Just that they shouldn't have done a roll call of all major Characters reaction lasting half the book. That everyone's response to the cleansing is "wow thats terrifying, but we can't do anything about it" doesn't help. Most of the POV sections end up doing nothing but re-introduce the Characters and show their view on the cleansing. The re-introduction was a waste of time for most as their plot is not returned to for any significant amount of time in this book.

    nightmarenny on
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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Yeah, it's not that there should have been no response...but it would have been, IMO, much better writing for the "oh shit, what's going on?" moments to have taken place while we, the reader, were still not sure how things would pan out.

    Having it all take place after we know that Rand has succeeded makes for boring and unnecessary narrative. To be fair, this isn't a new problem for the series...every time they jump the storyline back by several days, weeks or months just to go to another POV, it really hurts the flow of the story.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Yeah, it's not that there should have been no response...but it would have been, IMO, much better writing for the "oh shit, what's going on?" moments to have taken place while we, the reader, were still not sure how things would pan out.

    Having it all take place after we know that Rand has succeeded makes for boring and unnecessary narrative. To be fair, this isn't a new problem for the series...every time they jump the storyline back by several days, weeks or months just to go to another POV, it really hurts the flow of the story.

    That I could maybe agree with, although it would involve it's own amount of time-jumping.

    Though really, so many of books 8-11 should have been combined together.

    shryke on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, it's not that there should have been no response...but it would have been, IMO, much better writing for the "oh shit, what's going on?" moments to have taken place while we, the reader, were still not sure how things would pan out.

    Having it all take place after we know that Rand has succeeded makes for boring and unnecessary narrative. To be fair, this isn't a new problem for the series...every time they jump the storyline back by several days, weeks or months just to go to another POV, it really hurts the flow of the story.

    That I could maybe agree with, although it would involve it's own amount of time-jumping.

    Though really, so many of books 8-11 should have been combined together.

    I'm okay with time-jumping in very small bits, to give us the perspective of multiple people during something major (like the Cleansing)...but it's problematic when it's after the event has concluded, and in this case, in an entirely different book.

    I forget which series it is, either Malazan or ASoIaF, goes a long way towards not doing this by perspective jumping always to the "present", so that if say, Rand was marching towards Illian for 5 weeks, the next perspective might be Perrin at about the same time, and cover 5 weeks of his time before going back to Rand.

    I guess the problematic part for me is that I feel like there's no tension...we already know none of the main characters are going to die, and its further deflated by having important events happening so often from the reader's perspective multiple times instead of once for impact.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Sanderson wrote them slightly different sure, but we knew that was going to happen. Am I still happy with the books. Yes. Very much yes.

    Lady Eri on
  • Karrde1842Karrde1842 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm just glad that we don't have what seemed like hundreds of storylines anymore. It also makes me happy that other people had the same problems I did with some of the writing of the women in this series, although it has gotten better. I think a couple pages ago someone said they wanted to just scream at some of the main characters.....I relate. Everytime I go back and read one of these books again, I generally skip every chapter involving Egwene or Elayne. Nynaeve I don't mind as much.

    Karrde1842 on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Just got this in at my tiny local library branch yesterday (had to put it on hold from the main one) and only had time to read the first couple chapters. pretty great so far.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Karrde1842 wrote: »
    I'm just glad that we don't have what seemed like hundreds of storylines anymore. It also makes me happy that other people had the same problems I did with some of the writing of the women in this series, although it has gotten better. I think a couple pages ago someone said they wanted to just scream at some of the main characters.....I relate. Everytime I go back and read one of these books again, I generally skip every chapter involving Egwene or Elayne. Nynaeve I don't mind as much.

    Yeah, the female characters have gotten a lot better in the last few books. Early in the series, I would say most every female character is pretty much tied for being the most fucking obnoxious characters in any book I've ever read. Except for Min, she's always been great.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Karrde1842Karrde1842 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Karrde1842 wrote: »
    I'm just glad that we don't have what seemed like hundreds of storylines anymore. It also makes me happy that other people had the same problems I did with some of the writing of the women in this series, although it has gotten better. I think a couple pages ago someone said they wanted to just scream at some of the main characters.....I relate. Everytime I go back and read one of these books again, I generally skip every chapter involving Egwene or Elayne. Nynaeve I don't mind as much.

    Yeah, the female characters have gotten a lot better in the last few books. Early in the series, I would say most every female character is pretty much tied for being the most fucking obnoxious characters in any book I've ever read. Except for Min, she's always been great.

    Min has to be one of my favorite characters in the series. I am very happy that she gets to be Rand's main girl. If I was to rate the women in this series by likability, it would be something like...

    Min
    Nynaeve
    Moiraine
    Lanfear\Mierin\Selene
    Verin
    Birgitte
    Cadsuane? I guess?
    Berelain before the latest book
    Tuon
    Aviendha
    Most of the Wise Ones
    All other non-channelers except:
    Faile\Zarine
    All other Aes Sedai

    Karrde1842 on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    What in the hell is Lanfear doing on that list? Otherwise it's pretty accurate I'd say. Oh and Toun belongs down where Lanfear should be below the channelers.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Just started the Great Hunt.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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  • Karrde1842Karrde1842 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Idk, I always kinda liked Lanfear. Can't really explain why. *shrug*

    Karrde1842 on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Karrde1842 wrote: »
    Idk, I always kinda liked Lanfear. Can't really explain why. *shrug*

    I too have always liked Lanfear.

    I think it's the combination of being a crazy stalker and so upfront about all of her feelings and the fact that she managed to manipulate people so often without being all weird about it like Graendal, Mesaana and others.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I enjoy Tuon. She's smug, but at least she's a freaking
    princess so it's kind of like she has a reason. Of an empire, not some little pisshole country like Elayne.

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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    She also seems to be very intelligent, reasonable and well trained in many areas. She was just raised to believe some crazy things.

    Reynolds on
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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    She has all the same qualities as Elayne, but worse due to said crazy things. Being a princess or Aes Sedai or anything else doesn't come close to excusing how these chicks act.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    She has all the same qualities as Elayne, but worse due to said crazy things. Being a princess or Aes Sedai or anything else doesn't come close to excusing how these chicks act.

    Elayne has less going for her and is a bigger douche.

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