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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

1356731

Posts

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Mat was well written before this.

    Also a ton of Mat's bad rap comes unjustly from his reputation. He's a skirt chaser for sure and he dislike Aies Sedai, but that's because they treat him like garbage. I don't think he hates, mistrusts, or unfairly treats women at all throughout the series.

    It's not his fault that he had two crazy Emmond's Field women running around sullying his good name! :P

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    kabu wrote: »
    Finished it a few days ago, and absolutely loved it. Sanderson took Jordan's fantastic worldbuilding and added snappy dialogue and good pacing.

    My impressions:

    One thing I didn't like was how Sanderson wrote Elaida. She seemed very... General Zod.

    Other than that, fantastic. The ending was one of the most powerful scenes in any of the books so far. But the best bit was how Sanderson erased much of Jordan's sexism. It has been pointed out that few of the relationships in the book are "proper" until the woman is submissive or a "Princess in a Tower" (Morgase/Tallanvor, Nyneave/Lan, Suian/Bryne, Faile/Perrin, etc. etc.) and even the ones that aren't are pretty fucked up (Merise has "married" all four of her Warders wtf?). Sanderson turns Mat from a misogynist to a guy who is in denial that he's in love (and it's very clear who wears the pants in that relationship), pretty much makes it canon that Faile is, indeed, a whiny bitch, also points out that Gawyne is a whiny bitch, and best of all, acknowledges that Rand has his harem not because they all genuinely love him, but because the Pattern has forced them to. Basically, he makes the characters human.

    And all of Mat's dialogue is just amazing.



    Wait, so does Sanderson treat the poly stuff hostilely? That's kind of disappointing. He could have cut the misogyny without going all "Don't worry destiny FORCED them to do it.".

    Kamar on
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Kamar wrote: »
    kabu wrote: »
    Finished it a few days ago, and absolutely loved it. Sanderson took Jordan's fantastic worldbuilding and added snappy dialogue and good pacing.

    My impressions:

    One thing I didn't like was how Sanderson wrote Elaida. She seemed very... General Zod.

    Other than that, fantastic. The ending was one of the most powerful scenes in any of the books so far. But the best bit was how Sanderson erased much of Jordan's sexism. It has been pointed out that few of the relationships in the book are "proper" until the woman is submissive or a "Princess in a Tower" (Morgase/Tallanvor, Nyneave/Lan, Suian/Bryne, Faile/Perrin, etc. etc.) and even the ones that aren't are pretty fucked up (Merise has "married" all four of her Warders wtf?). Sanderson turns Mat from a misogynist to a guy who is in denial that he's in love (and it's very clear who wears the pants in that relationship), pretty much makes it canon that Faile is, indeed, a whiny bitch, also points out that Gawyne is a whiny bitch, and best of all, acknowledges that Rand has his harem not because they all genuinely love him, but because the Pattern has forced them to. Basically, he makes the characters human.

    And all of Mat's dialogue is just amazing.



    Wait, so does Sanderson treat the poly stuff hostilely? That's kind of disappointing. He could have cut the misogyny without going all "Don't worry destiny FORCED them to do it.".
    I did not get that feeling at all, the girls may be unhappy the Pattern is forcing them to Share, but they all love him for their own reasons. Ever since the "Sister Bond" Elayne and Aviendha have seemed even fine with that, leaving just MIn who has been doing a whole lot of not sharing :winky:

    Who-Psyd on
  • Josiah_9Josiah_9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Josiah_9 on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.

    khain on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.
    The True Power was the main cause of it. It latched onto all the pressure he was under from being the Dragon Reborn, but the whole dark aura thing had to be from the True Power. I mean, it could not be, but it's hard to interpret that in any other way I think. Agreed on the Aes Sedai. They're all supposed to be wise etc etc, but they all need a good slap to snap out of their rampant arrogance and manipulative ways.

    The Seanchan aren't evil on purpose, but their actions have done nothing but aid the Dark One so far. If the Seanchan were to prevail the world would come to an end. There's no question about that. Rand isn't going to show up solo at the Last Battle and win, and that's basically how things would turn out of the Seanchan have their way. This is ignoring the whole "We're going to disrupt the nations from uniting against the Shadow by waging war on them because our ancestor's owned this land hundreds of generations ago.". Rand can get away with forcing them to work together because he's the Dragon Reborn. The Seanchan are greedy murdering thieves writ large with an veneer of honor. They need to mend their ways badly. That's where Mat comes in.

    The Choeden Kal was insanely dangerous, but Rand himself is insanely dangerous. All the Ahaman are. But there are more dangerous things. And he had already done a miraculous world saving thing because he HAD the Choaden Kal. Destroying it would be a decent idea AFTER the Dark One is dead. Before hand, well, the plot will probably let him prevail, but Rand shouldn't be relying on that.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.
    The True Power was the main cause of it. It latched onto all the pressure he was under from being the Dragon Reborn, but the whole dark aura thing had to be from the True Power. I mean, it could not be, but it's hard to interpret that in any other way I think. Agreed on the Aes Sedai. They're all supposed to be wise etc etc, but they all need a good slap to snap out of their rampant arrogance and manipulative ways.

    The Seanchan aren't evil on purpose, but their actions have done nothing but aid the Dark One so far. If the Seanchan were to prevail the world would come to an end. There's no question about that. Rand isn't going to show up solo at the Last Battle and win, and that's basically how things would turn out of the Seanchan have their way. This is ignoring the whole "We're going to disrupt the nations from uniting against the Shadow by waging war on them because our ancestor's owned this land hundreds of generations ago.". Rand can get away with forcing them to work together because he's the Dragon Reborn. The Seanchan are greedy murdering thieves writ large with an veneer of honor. They need to mend their ways badly. That's where Mat comes in.

    The Choeden Kal was insanely dangerous, but Rand himself is insanely dangerous. All the Ahaman are. But there are more dangerous things. And he had already done a miraculous world saving thing because he HAD the Choaden Kal. Destroying it would be a decent idea AFTER the Dark One is dead. Before hand, well, the plot will probably let him prevail, but Rand shouldn't be relying on that.
    Using the True Power does cause the person to go insane and it is controlled by the Dark One, but I took the clouds as being more symbolic of Rands taking the wrong path and then his redemption at the end. He also doesn't appear to use it other than that single time, though it's never explicitly explained what using it causes other than continual use causing the person to go insane.

    They might be accidentally helping the Dark One, but I think that's debatable. If the Seanchan have their way then Rand bows to Tuon like their version of the prophecy says and they unite and go to the Last Battle. Given that Tuon knows this it seems a little unreasonable to expect her to bow before Rand when he demands it. I haven't read the previous books in a while so I may be missing something, but when Rand is in Ebou Dar he sees that the Seanchan have united that land and brought peace while he failed miserably in Arad Doman and the Borderlands so it's not like Rand is that successful either.

    There is a rather large difference between a person being able to channel and the using Choaden Kal which allows the person to do basically anything on their own. Like I said he has the sword if needed and he's actually prophesied to use it, not to mention that he's attempting to fix the mistakes of the past.

    khain on
  • frandelgearslipfrandelgearslip 457670Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I don't care if you only paid ten cents for it, you got robbed on book ten. ROBBED.

    I've only just started Book 2. I take it Book 10 is bad?

    You know how in Book 1, a bunch of stuff happens, and it keeps a steady clip throughout the entire book once you leave the Shir...I mean, Emond's Field?

    Yeah, that's never going to happen again in terms of plot.

    2-6 have stuff happen, but a lot of tangential things get spun off it in the process, and they cover nowhere near as much actual important plot as the first book. 7-10 can typically be summed up in a single sentence in terms of how much they move the plot. It's that slow.

    Can't speak for the books afterwards. Haven't bothered to read 'em, and I'm not going to until the series is done.

    Book 11 was a return to form, but still needed more movement.

    Let me go ahead and rate the movement of each book for you:

    Book1 >>>>>
    Book2 >>>>
    Book3 >>>>
    Book4 >>>
    Book5 >>>
    Book6 >>
    Book7 >
    Book8 >
    Book9 >>
    Book10 <
    Book 11 >>>
    Book 12 >>>>>>

    Thats also (not counting book 12) pretty much how the quality goes (the only exception for me is that I absolutely loved book 6 and it is my second favorite).

    I remember somebody once described book 10 as "Elaine takes a 200 page bath" and thinking that that was a fairly accurate description.

    I can't believe I missed this book coming out D: My favorite series of all time

    frandelgearslip on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.
    The True Power was the main cause of it. It latched onto all the pressure he was under from being the Dragon Reborn, but the whole dark aura thing had to be from the True Power. I mean, it could not be, but it's hard to interpret that in any other way I think. Agreed on the Aes Sedai. They're all supposed to be wise etc etc, but they all need a good slap to snap out of their rampant arrogance and manipulative ways.

    The Seanchan aren't evil on purpose, but their actions have done nothing but aid the Dark One so far. If the Seanchan were to prevail the world would come to an end. There's no question about that. Rand isn't going to show up solo at the Last Battle and win, and that's basically how things would turn out of the Seanchan have their way. This is ignoring the whole "We're going to disrupt the nations from uniting against the Shadow by waging war on them because our ancestor's owned this land hundreds of generations ago.". Rand can get away with forcing them to work together because he's the Dragon Reborn. The Seanchan are greedy murdering thieves writ large with an veneer of honor. They need to mend their ways badly. That's where Mat comes in.

    The Choeden Kal was insanely dangerous, but Rand himself is insanely dangerous. All the Ahaman are. But there are more dangerous things. And he had already done a miraculous world saving thing because he HAD the Choaden Kal. Destroying it would be a decent idea AFTER the Dark One is dead. Before hand, well, the plot will probably let him prevail, but Rand shouldn't be relying on that.
    Using the True Power does cause the person to go insane and it is controlled by the Dark One, but I took the clouds as being more symbolic of Rands taking the wrong path and then his redemption at the end. He also doesn't appear to use it other than that single time, though it's never explicitly explained what using it causes other than continual use causing the person to go insane.

    They might be accidentally helping the Dark One, but I think that's debatable. If the Seanchan have their way then Rand bows to Tuon like their version of the prophecy says and they unite and go to the Last Battle. Given that Tuon knows this it seems a little unreasonable to expect her to bow before Rand when he demands it. I haven't read the previous books in a while so I may be missing something, but when Rand is in Ebou Dar he sees that the Seanchan have united that land and brought peace while he failed miserably in Arad Doman and the Borderlands so it's not like Rand is that successful either.

    There is a rather large difference between a person being able to channel and the using Choaden Kal which allows the person to do basically anything on their own. Like I said he has the sword if needed and he's actually prophesied to use it, not to mention that he's attempting to fix the mistakes of the past.
    The dark clouds never showed up until after he used it. That had to be intentional. They were really there, it wasn't purely symbolic. Though of course it was as well, pointing to the "Evil" of the True Power affecting him somehow. Same with the room darkening when he walked in. Even Tam notices it.

    This is the reason the Seanchan are such a problem. They're insidious on accident. They're just trying to unite the land (by invading it)! Everyone is happy and protected (unless you can channel)! Rand just has to bow to the Crystal Throne (but Toun sure seems to think that means to HER and SHE'S the proper leader of Everything Everywhere)! They just attacked the White Tower (Ok, the Aes Sedai need a slap, but this is overkill)! So the Seachan are in practice:

    1. Killing troops of nations that could face the mundane Shadowspawn.

    Rand doesn't generally conduct massive ground wars and loose a huge amount of troops when he takes a place over.

    2. Trying to enslave and kill the greatest force against the Dark One- Channelers. The Damane and Suldam are inferior to the Aes Sedai even though they can individually fight well/better, because they don't make circles. And circles pwn all so far.

    Rand doesn't do that. Win.

    3. Take over the world, just because. They can bring peace and aid to places WITHOUT taking over. Taking over has worked ok for them, but tell that to every person dead/enslaved. Then they do stuff like "Swear to obey or us die, but I'll tell everyone you defied us...then we killed you. So, what's your answer?".

    Rand is uniting the land because he HAS to. And once he does things normally are just fine, he normally doesn't make a nation worse. Arad Doman is screwed because of the DO spoiling food. Nothing the anyone can do about that. And that prophecy as far as I recall literally only says he has to bow. So he could just dip his head and prophecy fulfilled. Since he didn't level them and Mat is married to Toun I'm sure it'll turn out he NEEDS them, and that would be a better outcome.

    Unless they defeat the Dark One and the Sanchean don't change. Hello massive wars all over again.

    4. This is just pants on head dumb. The White Tower is the greatest force against the Dark One besides the Dragon Reborn. They HAVE to know this. But their blind hatred of channelers seems to trump it.

    Rand didn't do this either. Win.

    So, yeah, go go The Prince of Ravens. Shape them up.

    Yes, there's a large difference between not having the CK and having it. But it isn't that Rand can't destroy the world without it. It's that he can't do things like cleanse the Saidin without it. If Rand wants to destroy the world all he has to do is sit there. Yeah, he has the sword. Which has to fill the place of the Big Important Item now, but it's clearly inferior in every way.

    Oh, to add to my wall of text: It occurs to me the female half of the CK may be working still!

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Female Choedean Kal key and presumably statue itself got melted destroyed after cleansing the source in Winters Heart

    Z0re on
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.
    The True Power was the main cause of it. It latched onto all the pressure he was under from being the Dragon Reborn, but the whole dark aura thing had to be from the True Power. I mean, it could not be, but it's hard to interpret that in any other way I think. Agreed on the Aes Sedai. They're all supposed to be wise etc etc, but they all need a good slap to snap out of their rampant arrogance and manipulative ways.

    The Seanchan aren't evil on purpose, but their actions have done nothing but aid the Dark One so far. If the Seanchan were to prevail the world would come to an end. There's no question about that. Rand isn't going to show up solo at the Last Battle and win, and that's basically how things would turn out of the Seanchan have their way. This is ignoring the whole "We're going to disrupt the nations from uniting against the Shadow by waging war on them because our ancestor's owned this land hundreds of generations ago.". Rand can get away with forcing them to work together because he's the Dragon Reborn. The Seanchan are greedy murdering thieves writ large with an veneer of honor. They need to mend their ways badly. That's where Mat comes in.

    The Choeden Kal was insanely dangerous, but Rand himself is insanely dangerous. All the Ahaman are. But there are more dangerous things. And he had already done a miraculous world saving thing because he HAD the Choaden Kal. Destroying it would be a decent idea AFTER the Dark One is dead. Before hand, well, the plot will probably let him prevail, but Rand shouldn't be relying on that.
    Using the True Power does cause the person to go insane and it is controlled by the Dark One, but I took the clouds as being more symbolic of Rands taking the wrong path and then his redemption at the end. He also doesn't appear to use it other than that single time, though it's never explicitly explained what using it causes other than continual use causing the person to go insane.

    They might be accidentally helping the Dark One, but I think that's debatable. If the Seanchan have their way then Rand bows to Tuon like their version of the prophecy says and they unite and go to the Last Battle. Given that Tuon knows this it seems a little unreasonable to expect her to bow before Rand when he demands it. I haven't read the previous books in a while so I may be missing something, but when Rand is in Ebou Dar he sees that the Seanchan have united that land and brought peace while he failed miserably in Arad Doman and the Borderlands so it's not like Rand is that successful either.

    There is a rather large difference between a person being able to channel and the using Choaden Kal which allows the person to do basically anything on their own. Like I said he has the sword if needed and he's actually prophesied to use it, not to mention that he's attempting to fix the mistakes of the past.
    The dark clouds never showed up until after he used it. That had to be intentional. They were really there, it wasn't purely symbolic. Though of course it was as well, pointing to the "Evil" of the True Power affecting him somehow. Same with the room darkening when he walked in. Even Tam notices it.

    This is the reason the Seanchan are such a problem. They're insidious on accident. They're just trying to unite the land (by invading it)! Everyone is happy and protected (unless you can channel)! Rand just has to bow to the Crystal Throne (but Toun sure seems to think that means to HER and SHE'S the proper leader of Everything Everywhere)! They just attacked the White Tower (Ok, the Aes Sedai need a slap, but this is overkill)! So the Seachan are in practice:

    1. Killing troops of nations that could face the mundane Shadowspawn.

    Rand doesn't generally conduct massive ground wars and loose a huge amount of troops when he takes a place over.

    2. Trying to enslave and kill the greatest force against the Dark One- Channelers. The Damane and Suldam are inferior to the Aes Sedai even though they can individually fight well/better, because they don't make circles. And circles pwn all so far.

    Rand doesn't do that. Win.

    3. Take over the world, just because. They can bring peace and aid to places WITHOUT taking over. Taking over has worked ok for them, but tell that to every person dead/enslaved. Then they do stuff like "Swear to obey or us die, but I'll tell everyone you defied us...then we killed you. So, what's your answer?".

    Rand is uniting the land because he HAS to. And once he does things normally are just fine, he normally doesn't make a nation worse. Arad Doman is screwed because of the DO spoiling food. Nothing the anyone can do about that. And that prophecy as far as I recall literally only says he has to bow. So he could just dip his head and prophecy fulfilled. Since he didn't level them and Mat is married to Toun I'm sure it'll turn out he NEEDS them, and that would be a better outcome.

    Unless they defeat the Dark One and the Sanchean don't change. Hello massive wars all over again.

    4. This is just pants on head dumb. The White Tower is the greatest force against the Dark One besides the Dragon Reborn. They HAVE to know this. But their blind hatred of channelers seems to trump it.

    Rand didn't do this either. Win.

    So, yeah, go go The Prince of Ravens. Shape them up.

    Yes, there's a large difference between not having the CK and having it. But it isn't that Rand can't destroy the world without it. It's that he can't do things like cleanse the Saidin without it. If Rand wants to destroy the world all he has to do is sit there. Yeah, he has the sword. Which has to fill the place of the Big Important Item now, but it's clearly inferior in every way.

    Oh, to add to my wall of text: It occurs to me the female half of the CK may be working still!
    The Seanchan Version Prophecy has the Dragon "Bowing before the Crystal Throne" the Prophecies on the mainland has the Dragon "Binding the Nine Moons to serve him" I somehow do not think the Seanchan Version has that particular Verse do you ?

    Female Chodan Kal is still around just need to find another Access Key. Assumption since it is never explicitly said what happned to Female Chodan Kal just the Key

    Who-Psyd on
  • DiscoGobboDiscoGobbo Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Snipped Quote/SpoilerTree
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Josiah_9 wrote: »
    I just finished, and Sanderson did everything I could have asked of someone in his position. He moved the plot along very well, and while it was obvious some things were cut, we all knew something would have to be.

    End of book:
    I was getting scared that Rand was going to be locked in to prissy bitch mode forever.

    Agreed.
    That was my exact fear as well. Since he's been in that mode since...book 1...and it just got worse. It's annoying in retrospect it took 12 damn books for him to snap out of it. Or so it seems. It sure looked like he snapped out of it at the end, but they never really went over what was so bad about using the True Power. Lews Therin went OMG! and then we have SUPER EMO Rand and a dark cloud. The end. Until the end. Where it apparently gets broken. Somehow. Or not?

    Speaking of the ending, so he wont hear Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people? What? So it was always Rand remembering his past life? No matter how you slice it up Rand was getting information from Lews Therin somehow. Unless they're implying like the Pattern was just shoving it into his head and he made up Lews Therin's voice? This is going to require a look at the WoT FAQ to make sense.

    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.

    Graendel did go out like a bitch, but it was also awesome. That's the kind of hardness Rand needed, not the emotional cripple kind.

    I didn't get the Pattern forced Rand's Harem to be his Harem anymore than it forces anything else, either. They all love him, they must all like sulky guys.

    And destroying the Choedan Kal was his last ultimate act of emotional wackiness sacrificed to put an end to it I guess. When he gets jumped by the rest of the Forsaken and a few circles of Black Ajah he's going to wish he just got a grip like everyone else, though.

    Oh and Egwene and Nynaeve were pretty good overall. I too liked how Nynaeve wasn't a sniffing braid pulling machine this time.
    Maybe I'm mistaken Rand didn't go over the edge because he used the True Power, but because Cadsuane is a dumb bitch and not only lost the chain that almost trapped him again, but then went on to try and again manipulate him using his father. He basically feels trapped and lashes out which is kind of dumb, but given that everyone continually tries to manipulate him it isn't unexpected. One thing that has continually bothered me throughout the books is how fucking dumb the majority of the Aes Sedai are. Moiraine is pretty much the only one that realized that you can't force some one who is stronger than you to do what you want and attempting to do so just makes the person ignore you or in Rand's case possibly attempt to kill you or an entire nation.

    The Seanchan aren't evil and the entire reason that they Returned was to fight the Dark One, except instead of finding a united continent they found a fractured one and are attempting to unite it like Rand is. Their methods may not be the best and the whole concept of chaining channelers as slaves is wrong, but I don't think it's exactly unexpected in this sort of world.

    I also don't think that destroying Choedan Kal was because of emotional wackiness, but because he realized that it's to powerful for anyone to use. The last scene points out that while Rand is bound to the Pattern that his choices and reasons behind them are still his own. He also has Callandor if he needs a sa'angreal and the requirement for three people puts a safeguard on it.
    The True Power was the main cause of it. It latched onto all the pressure he was under from being the Dragon Reborn, but the whole dark aura thing had to be from the True Power. I mean, it could not be, but it's hard to interpret that in any other way I think. Agreed on the Aes Sedai. They're all supposed to be wise etc etc, but they all need a good slap to snap out of their rampant arrogance and manipulative ways.

    The Seanchan aren't evil on purpose, but their actions have done nothing but aid the Dark One so far. If the Seanchan were to prevail the world would come to an end. There's no question about that. Rand isn't going to show up solo at the Last Battle and win, and that's basically how things would turn out of the Seanchan have their way. This is ignoring the whole "We're going to disrupt the nations from uniting against the Shadow by waging war on them because our ancestor's owned this land hundreds of generations ago.". Rand can get away with forcing them to work together because he's the Dragon Reborn. The Seanchan are greedy murdering thieves writ large with an veneer of honor. They need to mend their ways badly. That's where Mat comes in.

    The Choeden Kal was insanely dangerous, but Rand himself is insanely dangerous. All the Ahaman are. But there are more dangerous things. And he had already done a miraculous world saving thing because he HAD the Choaden Kal. Destroying it would be a decent idea AFTER the Dark One is dead. Before hand, well, the plot will probably let him prevail, but Rand shouldn't be relying on that.
    Using the True Power does cause the person to go insane and it is controlled by the Dark One, but I took the clouds as being more symbolic of Rands taking the wrong path and then his redemption at the end. He also doesn't appear to use it other than that single time, though it's never explicitly explained what using it causes other than continual use causing the person to go insane.

    They might be accidentally helping the Dark One, but I think that's debatable. If the Seanchan have their way then Rand bows to Tuon like their version of the prophecy says and they unite and go to the Last Battle. Given that Tuon knows this it seems a little unreasonable to expect her to bow before Rand when he demands it. I haven't read the previous books in a while so I may be missing something, but when Rand is in Ebou Dar he sees that the Seanchan have united that land and brought peace while he failed miserably in Arad Doman and the Borderlands so it's not like Rand is that successful either.

    There is a rather large difference between a person being able to channel and the using Choaden Kal which allows the person to do basically anything on their own. Like I said he has the sword if needed and he's actually prophesied to use it, not to mention that he's attempting to fix the mistakes of the past.
    The dark clouds never showed up until after he used it. That had to be intentional. They were really there, it wasn't purely symbolic. Though of course it was as well, pointing to the "Evil" of the True Power affecting him somehow. Same with the room darkening when he walked in. Even Tam notices it.

    This is the reason the Seanchan are such a problem. They're insidious on accident. They're just trying to unite the land (by invading it)! Everyone is happy and protected (unless you can channel)! Rand just has to bow to the Crystal Throne (but Toun sure seems to think that means to HER and SHE'S the proper leader of Everything Everywhere)! They just attacked the White Tower (Ok, the Aes Sedai need a slap, but this is overkill)! So the Seachan are in practice:

    1. Killing troops of nations that could face the mundane Shadowspawn.

    Rand doesn't generally conduct massive ground wars and loose a huge amount of troops when he takes a place over.

    2. Trying to enslave and kill the greatest force against the Dark One- Channelers. The Damane and Suldam are inferior to the Aes Sedai even though they can individually fight well/better, because they don't make circles. And circles pwn all so far.

    Rand doesn't do that. Win.

    3. Take over the world, just because. They can bring peace and aid to places WITHOUT taking over. Taking over has worked ok for them, but tell that to every person dead/enslaved. Then they do stuff like "Swear to obey or us die, but I'll tell everyone you defied us...then we killed you. So, what's your answer?".

    Rand is uniting the land because he HAS to. And once he does things normally are just fine, he normally doesn't make a nation worse. Arad Doman is screwed because of the DO spoiling food. Nothing the anyone can do about that. And that prophecy as far as I recall literally only says he has to bow. So he could just dip his head and prophecy fulfilled. Since he didn't level them and Mat is married to Toun I'm sure it'll turn out he NEEDS them, and that would be a better outcome.

    Unless they defeat the Dark One and the Sanchean don't change. Hello massive wars all over again.

    4. This is just pants on head dumb. The White Tower is the greatest force against the Dark One besides the Dragon Reborn. They HAVE to know this. But their blind hatred of channelers seems to trump it.

    Rand didn't do this either. Win.

    So, yeah, go go The Prince of Ravens. Shape them up.

    Yes, there's a large difference between not having the CK and having it. But it isn't that Rand can't destroy the world without it. It's that he can't do things like cleanse the Saidin without it. If Rand wants to destroy the world all he has to do is sit there. Yeah, he has the sword. Which has to fill the place of the Big Important Item now, but it's clearly inferior in every way.

    Oh, to add to my wall of text: It occurs to me the female half of the CK may be working still!
    The Seanchan Version Prophecy has the Dragon "Bowing before the Crystal Throne" the Prophecies on the mainland has the Dragon "Binding the Nine Moons to serve him" I somehow do not think the Seanchan Version has that particular Verse do you ?

    Female Chodan Kal is still around just need to find another Access Key. Assumption since it is never explicitly said what happned to Female Chodan Kal just the Key


    The Female Choden Kal did indeed melt after the cleansing of saidin. It's mentioned in Knife of Dreams.

    DiscoGobbo on
    PSN ID : DiscoGobbo.
    Warrior | Mage
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The Female Choden Kal did indeed melt after the cleansing of saidin. It's mentioned in Knife of Dreams.
    On me being wrong...
    Oops! Missed that passage on my last read through, or forgot about it.

    Who-Psyd on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    The Female Choden Kal did indeed melt after the cleansing of saidin. It's mentioned in Knife of Dreams.
    On me being wrong...
    Oops! Missed that passage on my last read through, or forgot about it.

    Well drat. Me too it appears. But:
    Rand is batty. Can't trust that suicidal madman touched by the Dark One. So the male half could still function and it exploding was just a ploy by the Dark One so Rand wouldn't use it against him in the Last Battle. :P

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • DajianDajian Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Mordred and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.

    Dajian on
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Mordred and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.
    Works even better since "Lews Therin" mentions that Saidan was tainted because they needed something to touch the Dark One for the Seals to work.

    Who-Psyd on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Mordred and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.
    Works even better since "Lews Therin" mentions that Saidan was tainted because they needed something to touch the Dark One for the Seals to work.

    That's a neat idea, and a fairly obvious one, but has a fairly obvious glaring problem:
    The Dark One controls access to the True Power. Makes no sense for him to let Rand use it to seal him up/kill him. Unless he's so stupid as to fall for a trick where Rand is all emo again and then goes AHA, Gotcha! and seals him up.

    Or, we've been misinformed about how access to the True Power works. Sure seemed like bad stuff, though, so lends weight to the idea it's the DO.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Also
    Rand and Favorite Fancy Pants Boy have some sort of odd connection if you remember the scene in the "dream" near the beginning.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • YannYann Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I'm pretty sure I started reading these books when I was younger. I was seriously considering getting back into it but reading some of the discussion here I'm starting the doubt my younger self's taste. Let's see:

    *The main villain is called the Dark One
    *The main character has the "True Power"
    *He is also the "Dragon Reborn"
    *Oh and he has a harem?

    Yann on
  • PaperPrittPaperPritt Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Ohhh neat! i didn't know this was out. I'm gonna pick that up today.

    Just a small recommandation to those that want to start the serie now that it has a chance to be finished : do yourselves a huge favor and read book 1 to 5 , MAYBE 6 (still good but really start slowing down to a crawl) and then for the love of god read summaries of 7-10.

    Book 7 to 10 are basically a waste of time. I've read them all cuz i love that serie, i really do, but i will never, ever go trough that again.

    Then read Knife of Dreams, which is another good one (sorta. you can still feel the dragging down part).


    But again, read the first books. they are really that good.

    PaperPritt on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yann wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure I started reading these books when I was younger. I was seriously considering getting back into it but reading some of the discussion here I'm starting the doubt my younger self's taste. Let's see:

    *The main villain is called the Devil.
    *The main character has the "Bad Magic"
    *He is also the "Chosen One"
    *Oh and he has a harem? You think that's a BAD thing?!?!

    There, I...fixed...it for you. I guess. Those are just names and there are far worse ones to use.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • DajianDajian Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Moridin and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.
    Works even better since "Lews Therin" mentions that Saidan was tainted because they needed something to touch the Dark One for the Seals to work.

    That's a neat idea, and a fairly obvious one, but has a fairly obvious glaring problem:
    The Dark One controls access to the True Power. Makes no sense for him to let Rand use it to seal him up/kill him. Unless he's so stupid as to fall for a trick where Rand is all emo again and then goes AHA, Gotcha! and seals him up.

    Or, we've been misinformed about how access to the True Power works. Sure seemed like bad stuff, though, so lends weight to the idea it's the DO.
    Rand and Moridin are linked somehow and Rand accessed the Dark One's power through him when he was collared. There was the vision from Min of Rand being two men that became one.

    Lews Therin was a red herring for that. I think that vision is for Moridin and Rand.

    Dajian on
  • DisenchanterDisenchanter Magnolia, DERegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Ok, is everyone messing up Moridin as Mordred or did I miss something?

    Disenchanter on
  • DajianDajian Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Ok, is everyone messing up Moridin as Mordred or did I miss something?
    Yeah my bad was pulling the name from memory.

    Dajian on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Just call him the Dark Lord's Favorite Fancy Pants Boy and everyone will know who you are talking about.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Moridin and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.
    Works even better since "Lews Therin" mentions that Saidan was tainted because they needed something to touch the Dark One for the Seals to work.

    That's a neat idea, and a fairly obvious one, but has a fairly obvious glaring problem:
    The Dark One controls access to the True Power. Makes no sense for him to let Rand use it to seal him up/kill him. Unless he's so stupid as to fall for a trick where Rand is all emo again and then goes AHA, Gotcha! and seals him up.

    Or, we've been misinformed about how access to the True Power works. Sure seemed like bad stuff, though, so lends weight to the idea it's the DO.
    Rand and Moridin are linked somehow and Rand accessed the Dark One's power through him when he was collared. There was the vision from Min of Rand being two men that became one.

    Lews Therin was a red herring for that. I think that vision is for Moridin and Rand.
    I'm only on the 4th book on my reread, so I may be misremembering the context when she saw that, but I figured it just applied to the Lews Therin personality merging with his more.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Dajian wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Agreed.
    I wish they head explained the sickness. It's just annoying at this point. Every time Rand goes do so something cool he throws up. Neat! Like with the Senchean. Who ARE evil, they're basically working for the Dark One while giving the useless people happiness for a short time. Mat needs to slap Toun around and change their ways ASAP. Mat's pretty awesome, he can do it.
    I know that they did not explitictly state it, but I think it is pretty obvious that the sickness is a result of Moridin and Rand crossing streams of balefire when they were in shadar logoth.

    Speculation: I think this sickness/link to the "true source" will be the loop hole Rand needs to permantly seal the prison and/or destory the dark one. Since it mentioned in the last book that the reason the seals are failing is because the Dark One's backlash tainted the male half of the source.
    Works even better since "Lews Therin" mentions that Saidan was tainted because they needed something to touch the Dark One for the Seals to work.

    That's a neat idea, and a fairly obvious one, but has a fairly obvious glaring problem:
    The Dark One controls access to the True Power. Makes no sense for him to let Rand use it to seal him up/kill him. Unless he's so stupid as to fall for a trick where Rand is all emo again and then goes AHA, Gotcha! and seals him up.

    Or, we've been misinformed about how access to the True Power works. Sure seemed like bad stuff, though, so lends weight to the idea it's the DO.
    Rand and Moridin are linked somehow and Rand accessed the Dark One's power through him when he was collared. There was the vision from Min of Rand being two men that became one.

    Lews Therin was a red herring for that. I think that vision is for Moridin and Rand.
    I'm only on the 4th book on my reread, so I may be misremembering the context when she saw that, but I figured it just applied to the Lews Therin personality merging with his more.
    It could have. And that's what we are mainly supposed to believe. But in the last book there's a throwaway line about Rand not hearing Lews Therin anymore because they were never 2 people. If they were never 2 separate people, they can't merge. Hence, it's someone else. So Fancy Pants is a possibility.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I sincerely doubt that is the case. Too abstract.

    Lady Eri on
    The Wheel of Calculadon turns, and then suddenly? Orbital lasers.
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I have to say, it is hilarious reading this thread right now, since I got the book but havent had the time to open it and read it yet. So I go through the thread without opening any spoilers at all, which makes for some extremely fast thread scanning. :P

    Gnome-Interruptus on
    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt that is the case. Too abstract.

    Not if they
    literally merge physically into one person!....

    As was pointed out, they're already connected some how. So there's more evidence for him than anyone else I think. Not that that really means anything, so I guess we'll see.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Don't cross the streams!

    Gathering Storm spoilers, and speculation about future books:
    It seems like Rand will be doing something almost as bad as the Dark One's goal-to 'Break the Wheel of Time' and end the cyclical nature of history-if he actually permanently(really and truly) seals the Dark One away or, even, kills Shaitan.

    No beginnings, no ends. And thus far, the books have been all about the inevitability of the Pattern's will, destiny and fate and all that.

    There has been some odd foreshadowing in a number of the books, however. It sometimes seems like the Dark One or Ishamael(Moridin) is working towards putting Rand in a position to end the cycle, one way or another. Either with his failure(and given the multiple failures Rand suffered during his glimpse of his other possible lives, his failure doesn't seem to break the cycle), or perhaps with his success.

    Examples: The conflicting orders given by Ishamael in the second/third book, that ended up preserving Mat's and Perrin's lives, Lanfear's aid in the 4th book, Moridin's aid in Shadar Logoth. And most recently, Rand being allowed to tap the True Power through his connection to Moridin in order to escape certain death and servitude.

    More speculation about future books, as well as spoilers:
    So, for unresolved stuff, what are you guys looking forward to?

    Personally, I cannot wait to see the shitstorm that comes up when Demandred and his new coterie of Darkfriend Ashaman's conflict with Logain and the Ashaman loyal to him really comes into the foreground.

    I'm mildly curious about the Borderlander army and the thirteen Aes Sedai with them.

    Oh, and of course, Mat and Thom's invasion of the Eelfin/Aelfin. Some fox/snake people gonna get shanked. Or possibly, blinded, dazzled, and bound.

    Sepah on
    Minerva_SC wrote:
    I don't think I've ever raged as hard as I just did. The amount of stupidity was so intense I couldn't eben think of words venomous enough to insult my team mates. I was literally choking on my own rage. I can only hope they all live in the same city and die in a tragic bus accident today, or tommorow. I'll pray to whatever dark god I have to.

    ah yes another night of LoL.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Sepah wrote: »
    Don't cross the streams!

    Gathering Storm spoilers, and speculation about future books:
    It seems like Rand will be doing something almost as bad as the Dark One's goal-to 'Break the Wheel of Time' and end the cyclical nature of history-if he actually permanently(really and truly) seals the Dark One away or, even, kills Shaitan.

    No beginnings, no ends. And thus far, the books have been all about the inevitability of the Pattern's will, destiny and fate and all that.

    There has been some odd foreshadowing in a number of the books, however. It sometimes seems like the Dark One or Ishamael(Moridin) is working towards putting Rand in a position to end the cycle, one way or another. Either with his failure(and given the multiple failures Rand suffered during his glimpse of his other possible lives, his failure doesn't seem to break the cycle), or perhaps with his success.

    Examples: The conflicting orders given by Ishamael in the second/third book, that ended up preserving Mat's and Perrin's lives, Lanfear's aid in the 4th book, Moridin's aid in Shadar Logoth. And most recently, Rand being allowed to tap the True Power through his connection to Moridin in order to escape certain death and servitude.

    More speculation about future books, as well as spoilers:
    So, for unresolved stuff, what are you guys looking forward to?

    Personally, I cannot wait to see the shitstorm that comes up when Demandred and his new coterie of Darkfriend Ashaman's conflict with Logain and the Ashaman loyal to him really comes into the foreground.

    I'm mildly curious about the Borderlander army and the thirteen Aes Sedai with them.

    Oh, and of course, Mat and Thom's invasion of the Eelfin/Aelfin. Some fox/snake people gonna get shanked. Or possibly, blinded, dazzled, and bound.

    Gathering Storm:
    Rand doesn't need to break the cycle really. It be nice if he did, but there was a time when the DO was totally sealed up. So it could just reset to a billion years before he gets found again or something like that.

    Rand tapping the True Power could have been so he'd go extra super emo like he did. Tapping it has always been Not A Good Idea for some reason, and it apparently wasn't doing good things to Rand after he freed himself, so it could have all been a plot by the DO to get him to do it and doesn't have to be from his connection to Moridin. The True Power sounds like it would be able to whip the ass of anyone at all using the One Power, so there has to be some reason the DO doesn't just let everyone use it. We don't actually know it was the True Power for that matter I guess, since the Darkness could be a coincidence and Lews Therin could have been wrong/ranting about something else/option C.

    Future Book Possible Spoilers:
    I've seen it said Taim isn't Demandred, and really, it's be kind of disappointing if he was now since it seems so obvious. Rand met the guy enough times, but then there aren't many people he could be. It be awesome if he was someone totally out of left field. Like a woman or something! HE'S in the white tower it turns out! If he is Taim, I don't see how Logian would win. But then there are probably a billion ways he could.

    I hope they raid the Tower and get Moraine earlyish in the next book. I don't want her back for 1 chapter in the last book.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    I think Fancy Pants ended up in a special situation:
    Rand failed to know Ishmael when they baled fired each others bale fire (kind of distracting situation I guess). And failed to know Semirhage right before she collared him (though he was distracted again...), and Rand apparently doesn't see Demandred as Taim (edge case, you'd think Lews Therin would tell Rand how to test for a damn inverted disguise, but I digress), and they're both still in their own bodies.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • SchideSchide Yeoh! Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    I think Fancy Pants ended up in a special situation:
    Rand failed to know Ishmael when they baled fired each others bale fire (kind of distracting situation I guess). And failed to know Semirhage right before she collared him (though he was distracted again...), and Rand apparently doesn't see Demandred as Taim (edge case, you'd think Lews Therin would tell Rand how to test for a damn inverted disguise, but I digress), and they're both still in their own bodies.
    It has been explicitly stated by Jordan previously that Taim is definitely not Demandred, although it is very likely that Taim is working with/under Demandred. I could dig out a link I guess but I read it in the WoT Encyclopedia summaries and I can't be bothered to go find it.

    Schide on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Schide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    I think Fancy Pants ended up in a special situation:
    Rand failed to know Ishmael when they baled fired each others bale fire (kind of distracting situation I guess). And failed to know Semirhage right before she collared him (though he was distracted again...), and Rand apparently doesn't see Demandred as Taim (edge case, you'd think Lews Therin would tell Rand how to test for a damn inverted disguise, but I digress), and they're both still in their own bodies.
    It has been explicitly stated by Jordan previously that Taim is definitely not Demandred, although it is very likely that Taim is working with/under Demandred. I could dig out a link I guess but I read it in the WoT Encyclopedia summaries and I can't be bothered to go find it.

    I believe there's also a bit in WH where it more or less explicitly says that they are not the same. The 2 of them are seen talking or giving orders or some such.

    shryke on
  • SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Uhh... no?

    There is no such bit.

    Seriously, if there is, I am going to be absolutely flabbergasted that I missed it.

    Edit: Google just finds a bunch of forums that say that Robert Jordan is quoted as saying

    Late-series spoiler
    that Taim is not Demandred. I cannot find any article that actually quotes him as such.

    Source, please.

    Sepah on
    Minerva_SC wrote:
    I don't think I've ever raged as hard as I just did. The amount of stupidity was so intense I couldn't eben think of words venomous enough to insult my team mates. I was literally choking on my own rage. I can only hope they all live in the same city and die in a tragic bus accident today, or tommorow. I'll pray to whatever dark god I have to.

    ah yes another night of LoL.
  • SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Ahahah.

    Just thought of something funny regarding Asmodean.

    Again, late-series spoilers
    So, supposedly Graendal killed Asmodean. But Graendal just got hit with a fuckoff huge blast of Balefire, undoing what she had done for a good time into the past. Its pretty unlikely, but it'd be hilarious if Asmodean came back to life(again) because of Balefire.

    Sepah on
    Minerva_SC wrote:
    I don't think I've ever raged as hard as I just did. The amount of stupidity was so intense I couldn't eben think of words venomous enough to insult my team mates. I was literally choking on my own rage. I can only hope they all live in the same city and die in a tragic bus accident today, or tommorow. I'll pray to whatever dark god I have to.

    ah yes another night of LoL.
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    shryke wrote: »
    Schide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    I think Fancy Pants ended up in a special situation:
    Rand failed to know Ishmael when they baled fired each others bale fire (kind of distracting situation I guess). And failed to know Semirhage right before she collared him (though he was distracted again...), and Rand apparently doesn't see Demandred as Taim (edge case, you'd think Lews Therin would tell Rand how to test for a damn inverted disguise, but I digress), and they're both still in their own bodies.
    It has been explicitly stated by Jordan previously that Taim is definitely not Demandred, although it is very likely that Taim is working with/under Demandred. I could dig out a link I guess but I read it in the WoT Encyclopedia summaries and I can't be bothered to go find it.

    I believe there's also a bit in WH where it more or less explicitly says that they are not the same. The 2 of them are seen talking or giving orders or some such.

    Yeah one of the rebel Ash'aman has a POV where he recalls getting orders to kill Rand from both Taim and Demandred in such a way that he finds it odd that Demandred and Taim wouldn't be aware of what the other is doing.

    I think there's also a Demandred POV from the cleansing where he fails to recognize one of Rand's Ash'aman.. which of course Taim would have.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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