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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

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Posts

  • TommattTommatt regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I don't see the Hawking/Mat thing happening myself. I believe Tuon will be forced to channel at some point, maybe to save Mat's life or something, blowing the lid off the empires dirty secret and leading to reform.

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  • EnderEnder regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I'm gonna assume that when Jordan talks about time flowing forward for Tel'Aran'Rhiod and the real world at the same time, it goes for the Horn too. Thus, Birgitte could be called by the Horn at Toman Head, but couldn't at the Last Battle since she's been spun out.

    Hence, Mat can't be Hawkwing, since obviously he was there when the Horn was blown. I don't think either Mat or Perrin are reborn anybody, or more accurately I don't think it matters who they used to be. Rand's the only one who's had any focus on their past lives, my guess is it'll stay that way.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • azith28azith28 regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Ender wrote: »
    I'm gonna assume that when Jordan talks about time flowing forward for Tel'Aran'Rhiod and the real world at the same time, it goes for the Horn too. Thus, Birgitte could be called by the Horn at Toman Head, but couldn't at the Last Battle since she's been spun out.

    Hence, Mat can't be Hawkwing, since obviously he was there when the Horn was blown. I don't think either Mat or Perrin are reborn anybody, or more accurately I don't think it matters who they used to be. Rand's the only one who's had any focus on their past lives, my guess is it'll stay that way.

    Are you then claiming that Olver isnt Gaidal Cain reborn? Cause Gaidal came when the horn was blown, and since then was spun out into olver (not as he was born but later in his life).

    I'm saying that the spirits can inhabit bodies that have similar things happen to them that 'create' them...like olver losing his parents, being ugly as sin, and being taken in by a group of highly skilled people that will teach him to dual wield weapons. This led him to be in a position to house the spririt of gaidal without actually being born with it.

    So after the horn was blown at falme, hawkwing could have been spun out into mat at a point of mats life....likely around the time that he needed to be a general (when fighting the aiel ). or perhaphs around the time the memories first were shoved into his head.

    azith28 on
    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
  • Z0reZ0re regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    azith28 wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    I'm gonna assume that when Jordan talks about time flowing forward for Tel'Aran'Rhiod and the real world at the same time, it goes for the Horn too. Thus, Birgitte could be called by the Horn at Toman Head, but couldn't at the Last Battle since she's been spun out.

    Hence, Mat can't be Hawkwing, since obviously he was there when the Horn was blown. I don't think either Mat or Perrin are reborn anybody, or more accurately I don't think it matters who they used to be. Rand's the only one who's had any focus on their past lives, my guess is it'll stay that way.

    Are you then claiming that Olver isnt Gaidal Cain reborn? Cause Gaidal came when the horn was blown, and since then was spun out into olver (not as he was born but later in his life).

    I'm saying that the spirits can inhabit bodies that have similar things happen to them that 'create' them...like olver losing his parents, being ugly as sin, and being taken in by a group of highly skilled people that will teach him to dual wield weapons. This led him to be in a position to house the spririt of gaidal without actually being born with it.

    So after the horn was blown at falme, hawkwing could have been spun out into mat at a point of mats life....likely around the time that he needed to be a general (when fighting the aiel ). or perhaphs around the time the memories first were shoved into his head.

    Jordan outright confirmed Olver is not Gaidal because the characters interacted with Gaidal way the hell after Olver was born. Souls are around from the very beginning, you don't get a new one shoved into your body unless the Dark One does some fucking around. Gaidel is still a baby somewhere in the world, he's probably going to be involved with something at the beginning of the next Age but he's not Olver and Mat is not Hawkwing.

    Z0re on
  • XeddicusXeddicus regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Sure put the kabosh on that theory.

    Xeddicus on
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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Given how large the pantheon for the Horn of Valere is supposed to be, and how few of the heroes we have actually heard mentioned by name, it makes sense that Matt / Perin etc wouldnt be reborn heroes that anyone from their age had heard of before.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson regular Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, definitely on-board with the Mat is not Hawkwing train. I do think he'll figure out some way to deal with Tuon though, because all this aggressive bullshit needs to end pronto so everyone can kill some goddamn trollocs and such.

    And I'm very eager to see the resolution of everything at the Black Tower.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • EnderEnder regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    azith28 wrote: »
    Are you then claiming that Olver isnt Gaidal Cain reborn? Cause Gaidal came when the horn was blown, and since then was spun out into olver (not as he was born but later in his life).

    I'm saying that the spirits can inhabit bodies that have similar things happen to them that 'create' them...like olver losing his parents, being ugly as sin, and being taken in by a group of highly skilled people that will teach him to dual wield weapons. This led him to be in a position to house the spririt of gaidal without actually being born with it.

    So after the horn was blown at falme, hawkwing could have been spun out into mat at a point of mats life....likely around the time that he needed to be a general (when fighting the aiel ). or perhaphs around the time the memories first were shoved into his head.

    Just to point out, this was kiboshed by Jordan as well. You're either a reborn soul, or you're not. There isn't any "soulswapping" such as you're suggesting.

    I'd have to do some searching, but didn't Jordan/Sanderson say we haven't seen Gaidal yet? He mentioned something else about him when nixing the Olver = Gaidal theory, I just can't remember what anymore.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson regular Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Ender wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    Are you then claiming that Olver isnt Gaidal Cain reborn? Cause Gaidal came when the horn was blown, and since then was spun out into olver (not as he was born but later in his life).

    I'm saying that the spirits can inhabit bodies that have similar things happen to them that 'create' them...like olver losing his parents, being ugly as sin, and being taken in by a group of highly skilled people that will teach him to dual wield weapons. This led him to be in a position to house the spririt of gaidal without actually being born with it.

    So after the horn was blown at falme, hawkwing could have been spun out into mat at a point of mats life....likely around the time that he needed to be a general (when fighting the aiel ). or perhaphs around the time the memories first were shoved into his head.

    Just to point out, this was kiboshed by Jordan as well. You're either a reborn soul, or you're not. There isn't any "soulswapping" such as you're suggesting.

    I'd have to do some searching, but didn't Jordan/Sanderson say we haven't seen Gaidal yet? He mentioned something else about him when nixing the Olver = Gaidal theory, I just can't remember what anymore.

    I can't imagine how we would have seen him. He'd be what, maybe one year old? I can't think of any babies we've run across specifically.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • EnderEnder regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I was gonna make a smarmy crack about
    HOHOHO WHOS HAVING TWINS, but considering we've seen them in Avi's Rhuidean experience, that ain't possible either. Well, okay, neither is the timing, shut up.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, definitely on-board with the Mat is not Hawkwing train. I do think he'll figure out some way to deal with Tuon though, because all this aggressive bullshit needs to end pronto so everyone can kill some goddamn trollocs and such.

    And I'm very eager to see the resolution of everything at the Black Tower.

    The black tower resolution certainly seems interesting specifically the
    soulless aiel in the epilogue and the way the asha'man under taim are described. We haven't actually seen dreadlords yet but from the descriptions they seem to be channelers, so perhaps something that infects or infests channelers into becoming shadowspawn. I am guessing those aiel may be the male aiel channelers who went north to battle the dark one or something.

    The part of the shadow foretelling in the end of the book included the shadow taking the eyes, skin and lips of man and might refer to these new shadowspawn.

    I can see sanderson skipping over a ton of battle though which could allow the last book to finish without feeling rushed.

    Void Slayer on
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  • CantideCantide regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, definitely on-board with the Mat is not Hawkwing train. I do think he'll figure out some way to deal with Tuon though, because all this aggressive bullshit needs to end pronto so everyone can kill some goddamn trollocs and such.

    And I'm very eager to see the resolution of everything at the Black Tower.

    The black tower resolution certainly seems interesting specifically the
    soulless aiel in the epilogue and the way the asha'man under taim are described. We haven't actually seen dreadlords yet but from the descriptions they seem to be channelers, so perhaps something that infects or infests channelers into becoming shadowspawn. I am guessing those aiel may be the male aiel channelers who went north to battle the dark one or something.

    The part of the shadow foretelling in the end of the book included the shadow taking the eyes, skin and lips of man and might refer to these new shadowspawn.

    I can see sanderson skipping over a ton of battle though which could allow the last book to finish without feeling rushed.
    I'm hoping they don't end up being the male Aiel channelers. I always loved the idea of them going on one man suicide runs against the Blight, and it would be a shame if they were just getting captured and brainwashed instead.

    Cantide on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Cantide wrote: »
    Yeah, definitely on-board with the Mat is not Hawkwing train. I do think he'll figure out some way to deal with Tuon though, because all this aggressive bullshit needs to end pronto so everyone can kill some goddamn trollocs and such.

    And I'm very eager to see the resolution of everything at the Black Tower.

    The black tower resolution certainly seems interesting specifically the
    soulless aiel in the epilogue and the way the asha'man under taim are described. We haven't actually seen dreadlords yet but from the descriptions they seem to be channelers, so perhaps something that infects or infests channelers into becoming shadowspawn. I am guessing those aiel may be the male aiel channelers who went north to battle the dark one or something.

    The part of the shadow foretelling in the end of the book included the shadow taking the eyes, skin and lips of man and might refer to these new shadowspawn.

    I can see sanderson skipping over a ton of battle though which could allow the last book to finish without feeling rushed.
    I'm hoping they don't end up being the male Aiel channelers. I always loved the idea of them going on one man suicide runs against the Blight, and it would be a shame if they were just getting captured and brainwashed instead.

    But fittingly ironic.

    HamHamJ on
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  • MrIamMeMrIamMe regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    and well within the rules the dark one plays by.

    MrIamMe on
  • adejaanadejaan regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Anyone else wondering if there's some correlation between the ships with red sails attacking stuff in Seanchan, and the red-veiled "Aiel" at the end of the book?

    adejaan on
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  • SparserLogicSparserLogic regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    adejaan wrote: »
    Anyone else wondering if there's some correlation between the ships with red sails attacking stuff in Seanchan, and the red-veiled "Aiel" at the end of the book?
    There's nothing stopping TDO from 13-circle brainwashing infants. Potentially he could have raised an entire race of Darkfriends this way if we killed off the non-channelers.

    And sorry to the other guy, they are definitely the male Aiel channelers. Yes its crazy sad but that also means Rand's biological father could possibly be there as well if he was healed.

    SparserLogic on
  • AetherAether regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    adejaan wrote: »
    Anyone else wondering if there's some correlation between the ships with red sails attacking stuff in Seanchan, and the red-veiled "Aiel" at the end of the book?
    There's nothing stopping TDO from 13-circle brainwashing infants. Potentially he could have raised an entire race of Darkfriends this way if we killed off the non-channelers.

    And sorry to the other guy, they are definitely the male Aiel channelers. Yes its crazy sad but that also means Rand's biological father could possibly be there as well if he was healed.
    You can only brainwash channelers, and that doesn't manifest until later.

    Aether on
  • SparserLogicSparserLogic regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Aether wrote: »
    adejaan wrote: »
    Anyone else wondering if there's some correlation between the ships with red sails attacking stuff in Seanchan, and the red-veiled "Aiel" at the end of the book?
    There's nothing stopping TDO from 13-circle brainwashing infants. Potentially he could have raised an entire race of Darkfriends this way if we killed off the non-channelers.

    And sorry to the other guy, they are definitely the male Aiel channelers. Yes its crazy sad but that also means Rand's biological father could possibly be there as well if he was healed.
    You can only brainwash channelers, and that doesn't manifest until later.
    they could have the flaw from birth, we know they are born with the ability to channel

    SparserLogic on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson regular Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, definitely on-board with the Mat is not Hawkwing train. I do think he'll figure out some way to deal with Tuon though, because all this aggressive bullshit needs to end pronto so everyone can kill some goddamn trollocs and such.

    And I'm very eager to see the resolution of everything at the Black Tower.

    The black tower resolution certainly seems interesting specifically the
    soulless aiel in the epilogue and the way the asha'man under taim are described. We haven't actually seen dreadlords yet but from the descriptions they seem to be channelers, so perhaps something that infects or infests channelers into becoming shadowspawn. I am guessing those aiel may be the male aiel channelers who went north to battle the dark one or something.

    The part of the shadow foretelling in the end of the book included the shadow taking the eyes, skin and lips of man and might refer to these new shadowspawn.

    I can see sanderson skipping over a ton of battle though which could allow the last book to finish without feeling rushed.
    I can't help feeling like the evil Aiel dudes and the Asha'man are totally different and that Taim has nothing to do with the former. I'm more interested in what Taim's plan is, where he fits in the hierarchy of evil (since he's not a Chosen, but seems clearly to be more important than your average Darkfriend).

    I especially want to know whether Taim is acting on his own ambitions and corralling channelers for that reason, or whether this is a dark one plan. I'm used to the evil plans of the Dark One being pretty obvious to the reader, even if the characters don't know, and I feel like whatever Taim is doing has been well hidden from us.

    And I guess there must be a Dreamspike there as well.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited February 2011
    I am in the camp that both the red Aiel and the Black Tower people are 13 chan/13 fade turnovers. Yeah some at Black Tower were darkfriends, but they converted most of them.

    Lady Eri on
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  • nightmarennynightmarenny regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I'd say Taim is working directly under Moridin(and I wouldn't be surprised if he is a replaced forsaken). Now the making of Evil channelers is a good goal in its own right but it looks like the Evil Ashaman will be apart of the "second front" Demodred has set up. He's got Darkspawn hitting Camelyn directly and Murandy is his domain which he's hitting Andor with. Add in the Evil Asha and you have a good hit.

    nightmarenny on
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  • EnderEnder regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Taim isn't a forsaken. Period.

    The only possible forsaken he could have been was Demandred, and that's been nixed by Jordan himself. Whatever Taim is, he's simply Taim.

    His plans, though, are making me curious. His goals seem to align with the DO, but everything has been so secretive, it's impossible to say really. He COULD be setting up to be a power post-Final Battle, but I don't see how anyone could really plan through the possible destruction of everything that exists.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson regular Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Ender wrote: »
    Taim isn't a forsaken. Period.

    The only possible forsaken he could have been was Demandred, and that's been nixed by Jordan himself. Whatever Taim is, he's simply Taim.

    His plans, though, are making me curious. His goals seem to align with the DO, but everything has been so secretive, it's impossible to say really. He COULD be setting up to be a power post-Final Battle, but I don't see how anyone could really plan through the possible destruction of everything that exists.

    I don't think anyone is saying he's a Forsaken in disguise so much as that if TDO is ready to start recruiting more people for Forsaken-level powers and responsibility, Taim would be a pretty obvious choice.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Forsaken were the most powerful channelers in an age of powerful channelers.

    Rand is more powerful than any of them.

    I seem to recall Rand considering Taim as being very powerful, so it would make sense that TDO would want Taim as a new Forsaken.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • MrOlettaMrOletta Registered User
    edited February 2011
    IIRC, Rand asked Taim to hold as much of the one power as he could, and was surprised that he could hold nearly as much as Rand, but without the internal struggle/stress/risk of being consumed that Rand would go through.

    This made the crazy voices wary.

    MrOletta on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Taim is almost certainly a Dreadlord.

    He makes it painfully obvious in his first meeting that he's not going the least bit crazy and has been channeling for YEARS.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • nightmarennynightmarenny regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Yes, I meant Taim has received a promotion. You guys are a little confused about what the Forsaken are. First there were more Forsaken in the AoL then were trapped in Shayol Ghul. Messana mentions the Forsaken lost numbers in the 30's during the balefire portion of the WoS. So there were quite a few. All were Channelers but not all Channelers on the Dark Ones side were Forsaken. To be forsaken you had to be taken to Shayol Ghul to give oaths to Dark One Directly. Everyone else was stuck with surrogates.

    Power is not a direct qualifier for being a Forsaken. Selfishness and Skill were just as important. Forsaken were granted the True Power(though that now goes through Moriden) as well the ability to control Darkspawn. While other humans may lead them Forsaken can not be disobeyed.

    nightmarenny on
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  • XeddicusXeddicus regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    MrOletta wrote: »
    IIRC, Rand asked Taim to hold as much of the one power as he could, and was surprised that he could hold nearly as much as Rand, but without the internal struggle/stress/risk of being consumed that Rand would go through.

    This made the crazy voices wary.

    Rand seems to be like a trillion times stronger than then now, too. Of course, if it comes down to a fight it probably won't be so easy. Rand has been ignoring that whole thing for so long it be kind of lame if he just waved his hand and solved the problem....wait, no, last time he did that it was badass. So that would work, what am I saying.

    Xeddicus on
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  • Eggplant WizardEggplant Wizard regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Eggplant Wizard on
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  • nightmarennynightmarenny regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    If you go back to TDR you find that Mat already had old memories. Only one life though. A manethren General. It never really came up again.

    nightmarenny on
    Quire.jpg
  • RaekreuRaekreu regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Raekreu on
  • Z0reZ0re regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Raekreu wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Right, but heroes take the form of their most recent incarnation when in Tel'Aran'Rhoid and summoned by the horn. Case in point, Hawkwing recognizing Rand as Lews Therin when we know the Dragon Soul is at least a thousand lifetimes of hero material. But some people can become heroes if they're badass enough.

    Z0re on
  • RaekreuRaekreu regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Z0re wrote: »
    Raekreu wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Right, but heroes take the form of their most recent incarnation when in Tel'Aran'Rhoid and summoned by the horn. Case in point, Hawkwing recognizing Rand as Lews Therin when we know the Dragon Soul is at least a thousand lifetimes of hero material. But some people can become heroes if they're badass enough.

    Man, I love how one aspect of the WoT series is so convoluted that it could have been used as the basis for a different set of novels.

    Also: Mat has, at the least, made a hell of a lot of progress towards hero status. It seems like everyone and their kid brother knows who the band of the red hand is and that Mat Cauthon is its leader.

    Raekreu on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson regular Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Raekreu wrote: »
    Z0re wrote: »
    Raekreu wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Right, but heroes take the form of their most recent incarnation when in Tel'Aran'Rhoid and summoned by the horn. Case in point, Hawkwing recognizing Rand as Lews Therin when we know the Dragon Soul is at least a thousand lifetimes of hero material. But some people can become heroes if they're badass enough.

    Man, I love how one aspect of the WoT series is so convoluted that it could have been used as the basis for a different set of novels.

    Also: Mat has, at the least, made a hell of a lot of progress towards hero status. It seems like everyone and their kid brother knows who the band of the red hand is and that Mat Cauthon is its leader.

    Mat is definitely a hero at this point.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • HiravaxisHiravaxis regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Raekreu wrote: »
    Z0re wrote: »
    Raekreu wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Right, but heroes take the form of their most recent incarnation when in Tel'Aran'Rhoid and summoned by the horn. Case in point, Hawkwing recognizing Rand as Lews Therin when we know the Dragon Soul is at least a thousand lifetimes of hero material. But some people can become heroes if they're badass enough.

    Man, I love how one aspect of the WoT series is so convoluted that it could have been used as the basis for a different set of novels.

    Also: Mat has, at the least, made a hell of a lot of progress towards hero status. It seems like everyone and their kid brother knows who the band of the red hand is and that Mat Cauthon is its leader.

    Mat is definitely a hero at this point.

    Why is it that we think Mat isn`t a Hero. The finn called him Son of Battles. Sounds like the title of someone pretty heroic.

    Hiravaxis on
  • Z0reZ0re regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Hiravaxis wrote: »
    Raekreu wrote: »
    Z0re wrote: »
    Raekreu wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty much accepted at this point that Mat isn't anyone in particular reborn. Rather, his memories were being fed to him by the 'finn from their databank of stolen memories. The 'finn originally got the memories from human visitors to their world under the treaty. This was apparently quite a common pilgrimage for persons of importance back in the days before Hawkwing's empire. After the empire, the doorway Ter'Angreal were hidden away and subsequently very few people visited the 'finn, thus Mat has no memories post-Hawkwing.

    Well, the doorway in Tear, anyhow. The one in Rhuidean (presumably) hadn't been used in millenia until Mat wandered through it in TSR. And we all know how well that went for him.

    I also seem to remember from somewhere in the series that Birgitte mentioned that the heroes of the horn were dynamic rather than static - so, if you were a hero in your own life and weren't the reincarnation of anyone famous then there was a chance that you'd be summoned by the horn for having just been a total badass. Case and point, Hawkwing was summoned by the horn and Mat recognized him for who he was - THE Hawkwing. So it seems likely that even if he was a reincarnation of someone (and Ta'veren to boot), he didn't become one of the heroes of the horn until after he'd lived the life that he was famous for.

    Right, but heroes take the form of their most recent incarnation when in Tel'Aran'Rhoid and summoned by the horn. Case in point, Hawkwing recognizing Rand as Lews Therin when we know the Dragon Soul is at least a thousand lifetimes of hero material. But some people can become heroes if they're badass enough.

    Man, I love how one aspect of the WoT series is so convoluted that it could have been used as the basis for a different set of novels.

    Also: Mat has, at the least, made a hell of a lot of progress towards hero status. It seems like everyone and their kid brother knows who the band of the red hand is and that Mat Cauthon is its leader.

    Mat is definitely a hero at this point.

    Why is it that we think Mat isn`t a Hero. The finn called him Son of Battles. Sounds like the title of someone pretty heroic.

    To be honest, both Mat and Perrin are probably reincarnations of older heroes anyways, just not ones that are famous in the fourth age. Individually they are as powerful Ta'veren as Hawkwing was, and both of them have built up an almost mythic reputation at this point. Not to mention their roles in the finale should both be enormous if what the prophecies are hinting at is true.

    Z0re on
  • HiravaxisHiravaxis regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    Z0re wrote: »
    Hiravaxis wrote: »
    Why is it that we think Mat isn`t a Hero. The finn called him Son of Battles. Sounds like the title of someone pretty heroic.

    To be honest, both Mat and Perrin are probably reincarnations of older heroes anyways, just not ones that are famous in the fourth age. Individually they are as powerful Ta'veren as Hawkwing was, and both of them have built up an almost mythic reputation at this point. Not to mention their roles in the finale should both be enormous if what the prophecies are hinting at is true.
    Ok*.. This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

    Hiravaxis on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2011
    They aren't heroes of the Horn because when they blew the Horn, none of them recognized either one. They did, however, recognize Rand.

    They will both probably be tied to the Horn after this though.

    shryke on
  • HandgimpHandgimp R+L=J Family PhotoRegistered User regular
    edited February 2011
    From the green pillars scene, it seems obvious Toun will be invited to the summit of kings and rand will bow to her, or he will secure a peace with the other monarchs then submit to her somehow, either before or after he faces the dark one.

    I think it is clear Rand's objective after the last battle is to create peace between everyone, whatever the cost.

    The actions of the various women may seem harsh, but honestly if men were doing the same things they would be called calculating or strong (even if tyrannical). I think these reactions to these characters is more of a indication of the state of our world, not a reflection on theirs.

    It seems clear to me that the reason the Seanchan believe that the Dragon will bow to the crystal throne is that Ishamael corrupted their version of the Karaethon Cycle; remember, nobody but Seanchan have heard anything about that, and Ishamael bragged about turning Seanchan against Rand (sent Hawkwing's sons across the ocean and thus sealed two fates rant).

    My theory is that the pattern tried to correct this through Rand's ta'veren-ness when he met Tuon (hence how strong she wanted to concede) but it's too frayed through the rampant balefiring and such that it didn't work.

    Handgimp on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • captainkcaptaink regular TexasRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    My dad is on a re-read of the whole series. He really likes books 1-6, they move along fine and have plenty of action. But Lord of Chaos is the last book in that vein. He said the next books slowed down immensely. I suggested the idea of completely skipping Winter's Heart, which he did :lol: Now he's on...Crossroads of Twilight I think.

    captaink on
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