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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

1246731

Posts

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Balefuego wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Schide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    True Power makes you go crazy, and the Dark Lord can turn it on and off at will.
    Also Rand/Lews Therin seems to be able to figure out Forsaken in different bodies, or at least he could with Fancy Pants. That might be because of the crazy bullshit power connection deal, explaining a LOT of what happened in the book.

    I think Fancy Pants ended up in a special situation:
    Rand failed to know Ishmael when they baled fired each others bale fire (kind of distracting situation I guess). And failed to know Semirhage right before she collared him (though he was distracted again...), and Rand apparently doesn't see Demandred as Taim (edge case, you'd think Lews Therin would tell Rand how to test for a damn inverted disguise, but I digress), and they're both still in their own bodies.
    It has been explicitly stated by Jordan previously that Taim is definitely not Demandred, although it is very likely that Taim is working with/under Demandred. I could dig out a link I guess but I read it in the WoT Encyclopedia summaries and I can't be bothered to go find it.

    I believe there's also a bit in WH where it more or less explicitly says that they are not the same. The 2 of them are seen talking or giving orders or some such.

    Yeah one of the rebel Ash'aman has a POV where he recalls getting orders to kill Rand from both Taim and Demandred in such a way that he finds it odd that Demandred and Taim wouldn't be aware of what the other is doing.

    I think there's also a Demandred POV from the cleansing where he fails to recognize one of Rand's Ash'aman.. which of course Taim would have.

    That was it.

    Yeah, RJ basically went out of his way in WH to slap down the whole Taim=Demandred theory.

    shryke on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I'm also of the opinion that Winter's Heart gets unfairly lumped in with the rest of the late series. It's by far the best of books 7-10 and plenty of stuff happens in it.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    One thing I didn't like was how Sanderson wrote Elaida. She seemed very... General Zod.

    A bit LTTP here, but I just started reading the book over the holiday week (about 300+ pages in so far) and I have to agree with the above.

    Elaida was always a bit crazy, but her level of crazy was seriously kicked up a couple of notches in the this book. Like irrationally crazy.

    I actually need to look up Knife of Dreams online, as I'm not sure i actually read it. I think I did, but I have like no memory of reading it. I even read the last couple of chapters at the bookstore and nothing rang a bell. So that'll be funny if I managed to skip that one entirely.

    Selner on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.
    Jordan actualy said "Graendel did it"

    Who-Psyd on
  • physi_marcphysi_marc Positron Tracker Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.
    Jordan actualy said "Graendel did it"

    No, he most definitely did not say that. However, Brandon Sanderson has stated that he will reveal the killer in one of the upcoming books.

    physi_marc on
    3DS Friend Code: 3952-7043-7606
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  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    physi_marc wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.
    Jordan actualy said "Graendel did it"

    No, he most definitely did not say that. However, Brandon Sanderson has stated that he will reveal the killer in one of the upcoming books.

    Huh now why was I remembering him saying that?
    Just checked WoT Wiki and apparently all he has ever said is the Killer was someone from prior to his Death [Anyone introduced before Book 5]

    Who-Psyd on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.


    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.

    That's probably about as close as we're going to come. It doesn't (I think) explain the connection to the Snakes and Foxes. When Perrin was first chasing Slayer through the Two Rivers/Mountains etc. Slayer very explicitly took refuge in the big 'ol tower. Did Fain have a connection to the Snakes and Foxes? I don't believe so. You could certainly lump that mystery in with the "vaguely DO-but-not" that fain ends up with after awhile with the dagger.

    Man I hope Sanderson gives some closure on that. I think I secretly want Slayer/Luc to fight on Rand's side at the last battle for some inexplicable but totally badass explanation.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.
    That's probably about as close as we're going to come. It doesn't (I think) explain the connection to the Snakes and Foxes. When Perrin was first chasing Slayer through the Two Rivers/Mountains etc. Slayer very explicitly took refuge in the big 'ol tower. Did Fain have a connection to the Snakes and Foxes? I don't believe so. You could certainly lump that mystery in with the "vaguely DO-but-not" that fain ends up with after awhile with the dagger.

    Man I hope Sanderson gives some closure on that. I think I secretly want Slayer/Luc to fight on Rand's side at the last battle for some inexplicable but totally badass explanation.
    The WoT Family Tree is actually pretty hilariously convoluted.
    Eh on the list of random badasses Rand is related to I think Galad ranks slightly higher for most hilarious teamup
    Also I need to reread the entire series again, twice now in this thread I have been mistaken or just wrong o_O

    Who-Psyd on
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.
    That's probably about as close as we're going to come. It doesn't (I think) explain the connection to the Snakes and Foxes. When Perrin was first chasing Slayer through the Two Rivers/Mountains etc. Slayer very explicitly took refuge in the big 'ol tower. Did Fain have a connection to the Snakes and Foxes? I don't believe so. You could certainly lump that mystery in with the "vaguely DO-but-not" that fain ends up with after awhile with the dagger.

    Man I hope Sanderson gives some closure on that. I think I secretly want Slayer/Luc to fight on Rand's side at the last battle for some inexplicable but totally badass explanation.
    The WoT Family Tree is actually pretty hilariously convoluted.
    Eh on the list of random badasses Rand is related to I think Galad ranks slightly higher for most hilarious teamup
    Also I need to reread the entire series again, twice now in this thread I have been mistaken or just wrong o_O

    I've read 1-6 four times.
    7-9 thrice.
    And the recent ones once. I haven't gotten to Sanderson yet, as SoI&F has me in its cold clutches at the moment.

    I had way too much time in high school.

    The Crowing One on
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  • adejaanadejaan Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.
    That's probably about as close as we're going to come. It doesn't (I think) explain the connection to the Snakes and Foxes. When Perrin was first chasing Slayer through the Two Rivers/Mountains etc. Slayer very explicitly took refuge in the big 'ol tower. Did Fain have a connection to the Snakes and Foxes? I don't believe so. You could certainly lump that mystery in with the "vaguely DO-but-not" that fain ends up with after awhile with the dagger.

    Man I hope Sanderson gives some closure on that. I think I secretly want Slayer/Luc to fight on Rand's side at the last battle for some inexplicable but totally badass explanation.
    The WoT Family Tree is actually pretty hilariously convoluted.
    Eh on the list of random badasses Rand is related to I think Galad ranks slightly higher for most hilarious teamup
    Also I need to reread the entire series again, twice now in this thread I have been mistaken or just wrong o_O
    I also immediately thought Slayer was the one who killed Asmodean, but that theory has been discredited because of our one POV from the guy, in which he thinks about how cool it was to kill two Aes Sedai but doesn't think about how awesome killing Asmodean (a Forsaken) was. But no one considers that maybe Slayer didn't know who Asmodean really was? Whoever directed him (probably Graendal) could have just told him to kill "Jasin Natael" and kept the identity secret for her own reasons.

    And yes, Isam was Lan's cousin.

    adejaan on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    adejaan wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I thought it was pretty clear that Asmodean was killed by
    That crazy double man guy who shows up in the wolf dream and during that fight in Emmond's Field as a Hunter for the Horn and pretty much never again...

    Though I could be wrong.

    We don't have anything to go on other than Asmodean knew who killed him and they apparently didn't leave a body behind. That being the case, it could be dozens of people and as far as I know that person has never precisely showed the ability to remove bodies totally. But yeah, it could be.

    Slayer/Lord Luc was always one of my favorite characters, and he always seemed to be some minor, unimportant guy in Jordan's mind. Of course, in pure WoT fashion his importance and mystery were continually upgraded until they led to tons of questions in and of itself. Apparently (as I haven't read the books in awhile), he's just sort of written out, right?
    There's also the whole Luc/Slayer is connected to the snakes and foxes thing, and is seen entering the tower. He may have his final showdown with Thom and Mat and Perrin at the conclusion of that storyline.

    As far as I recall Luc got shot by Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and then rode out of the Two Rivers into limbo so far. And he's also connected to Lan.

    There's the whole
    Brother (cousin?) to both Rand and Lan thing, which just makes it weirder. One of those characters who is out of place in a rather ordered and known (created) world.

    Isn't he the son of Lan's uncle or whatever? The guy who betrayed Malkier? In the first book when Agelmar told the story he said the trollocs found them, but that no one found their bodies.

    Sorry, I'm gonna keep spoilering this
    Luc/Slayer is a combination of Lan's cousin (uncle?) and Tigrane's Brother (Rand's uncle) who was convinced that he had to run off to the waste because of an Aes Sedai's Foretelling.

    One of the least explained things in the series. He's in the wolf dream, and can seemingly slip from our world to the world of dreams at will. He's also said to be a combination of the souls of both Malkier's heir and Rand's uncle, but never actually explained how. The assumption that was hinted at was that Slayer/Luc was captured by the DO and "created" from these two individuals. Yet Slayer must have found some way to gain some amount of freedom, and he seems to either have his own agenda or the agenda set for him by the DO is so convoluted and tricky that it doesn't even make sense in the larger world.

    Again, he has some connection with the Snakes and Foxes, which is even more befuddling.

    Yeah, I haven't read the latest book, so I'm just speculating based on what I've seen. I've forgotten that he looks different in tel'aran'rhiod.
    The creating process may have been similar to what was done to Fain? It seems in book 4 taht he's hunting Fain, because Fain went rogue, but I'm wondering if whatever happened to him would cause him to hate the DO as much as fain does.
    That's probably about as close as we're going to come. It doesn't (I think) explain the connection to the Snakes and Foxes. When Perrin was first chasing Slayer through the Two Rivers/Mountains etc. Slayer very explicitly took refuge in the big 'ol tower. Did Fain have a connection to the Snakes and Foxes? I don't believe so. You could certainly lump that mystery in with the "vaguely DO-but-not" that fain ends up with after awhile with the dagger.

    Man I hope Sanderson gives some closure on that. I think I secretly want Slayer/Luc to fight on Rand's side at the last battle for some inexplicable but totally badass explanation.
    The WoT Family Tree is actually pretty hilariously convoluted.
    Eh on the list of random badasses Rand is related to I think Galad ranks slightly higher for most hilarious teamup
    Also I need to reread the entire series again, twice now in this thread I have been mistaken or just wrong o_O
    I also immediately thought Slayer was the one who killed Asmodean, but that theory has been discredited because of our one POV from the guy, in which he thinks about how cool it was to kill two Aes Sedai but doesnt think about how awesome killing Asmodean was. But no one considers that maybe Slayer didn't know who Asmodean really was? Whoever directed him (probably Graendal) could have just told him to kill "Jasin Natael" and kept the identity secret for her own reasons.


    I'm also of the opinion that I really want it to be true, as it would be a pretty clean way to clear that up. We've had too many POVs from the bad guys to make it the best secret ever. But that one Slayer POV does raise issues.

    The Crowing One on
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  • CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I finally finished the audiobook for The Gathering Storm. I was originally planning to buy it in print like I've done for the past books, but I couldn't help picking it up when I saw the male narrator was the same as the Mistborn trilogy. Hearing him read Brandon Sanderson's foreword in his Kelsier voice was a very surreal experience. Thoughts (spoilers):
    Did anyone else get the impression that Rand was turning into the Dark One, or at least a similar being? I'm not just talking about the evil aura stuff. Plants and food seemed to be spoiling around him much faster than anywhere else, much like the Blight, and his ta'veren episodes going permanently negative didn't seem all that far removed from the DO's "bubbles of evil." And some of the things the DO has done, like picking the Forsaken based on who he could control, seem like the sort of things Rand would do. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the DO is a human made immortal via the True Power, someone like Rand who wants to save the world by breaking the cycle, through whatever means necessary.

    Egwene's storyline was surprisingly good, though I saw Elaida getting captured by the Seanchan from a mile away. Jordan seemed to have a creepy fascination with evil women getting turned into slaves ( Galina, Liandrin, Suroth, Moghedien, arguably Alviarin ).

    I'm calling a Moridin Heel Face turn before the end. The dream scene seemed to make a big deal over the fact that he wasn't really evil, just supporting the DO because he saw no other option. And props to Sanderson/Jordan for bringing up the idea that the DO's eventual victory seems inevitable, since he only has to win once. That always bothered me.

    It also looks like the next book will be Perrin heavy. The way Mat and Rand's visions were all of stuff we haven't seen yet makes me think several Perrin chapters were pushed back to the second book in order to advance other storylines.

    Cantide on
  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Finished this yesterday and thought it was excellent. My thoughts on the differing prophesies are that maybe Jordan intended to pull a Tad Williams on us... hell, or even a Sanderson =)

    Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams spoiler:
    The prophesy was worded like it would be something to protect against the evil, when in fact it was propagated by the evil in order to bring the tools it needed together.

    Sanderson's Mistborn spoilers:
    Basically the evil in this series takes an existing prophesy about a hero destined to save the world and changes all references of it in text to suit its purposes in order to make the hero do the exact opposite of what needed to be done.

    clsCorwin on
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Am I the only one somewhat bummed out by the idea of the Wheel itself, even ignoring the fact that logically speaking TDO will inevitably win? I find myself hoping the Wheel gets broken in some not-entirely-horrible way, maybe by Rand Balefiring the shit out of TDO or something.

    Kamar on
  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I think thats kinda of what hes on to. Seal away the DO using Callandor + some bigass circles of Aes Sedai and Asha Men. Then Balefire until the pattern falls apart. Bonus side benefit: Min's visions now become meaningless.

    clsCorwin on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Well they talk like if the Pattern falls apart that's The End. Nothing survives anywhere at any time. So unless they're wrong about that it be bad. Of course, we don't really know that I suppose. But we don't really know the DO will inevitably win, either. What if he inevitably loses every single time, instead? I mean, they've done this forever right? They've killed/converted/defeated The Dragon before it's implied. So either they have and it didn't matter or even though they've been doing this for so long they've never won. Not once. Or they have and stuff resets anyway.

    So...yeah...it'll end by being the prequal to A Song of Ice and Fire. :P

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The Dark One likes to lie, a lot.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    And yet he had enough people on his side to start a war, anyway. People are really stupid in fantasy books. But that's a slightly different topic...

    But I acknowledged it could all be a lie. All of it could be from top to bottom on both sides. Unless you weren't implying I hadn't...then never mind I guess!

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The last book has a hilarious conversation about the dark one's minions in it.
    Only Moradin knows (or possibly accepts) that the DO's victory plan includes wiping out existence ASAP. The rest think he is going to left the rule some twisted evil planet for all time.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The last book has a hilarious conversation about the dark one's minions in it.
    Only Moradin knows (or possibly accepts) that the DO's victory plan includes wiping out existence ASAP. The rest think he is going to left the rule some twisted evil planet for all time.

    Which is why for crafty powerful people all the Forsaken are 5th grader smart in the big picture.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Which makes the Aies Sedai short bus third graders...

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited December 2009
    In the end of the most recent book, you see all the lives Rand has lived flash by, and you see that it has been going on for an eternity and the Dark One has never managed to win. In all the different worlds you can visit in the portal stone, the one in which Rand and everyone lives is the one where the Dark One *never* breaks free. A goal the pattern strives for when it compiles. Which makes Moridin's logic flawed.

    Lady Eri on
    The Wheel of Calculadon turns, and then suddenly? Orbital lasers.
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2009
    Kamar wrote: »
    Am I the only one somewhat bummed out by the idea of the Wheel itself, even ignoring the fact that logically speaking TDO will inevitably win? I find myself hoping the Wheel gets broken in some not-entirely-horrible way, maybe by Rand Balefiring the shit out of TDO or something.

    I think the entire point of the wheel is that it does give people the chance to live again.
    That was the entire point of Rand's epiphany. He sees it as a gift from the creator.

    taeric on
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2009
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well they talk like if the Pattern falls apart that's The End. Nothing survives anywhere at any time. So unless they're wrong about that it be bad. Of course, we don't really know that I suppose. But we don't really know the DO will inevitably win, either. What if he inevitably loses every single time, instead? I mean, they've done this forever right? They've killed/converted/defeated The Dragon before it's implied. So either they have and it didn't matter or even though they've been doing this for so long they've never won. Not once. Or they have and stuff resets anyway.

    So...yeah...it'll end by being the prequal to A Song of Ice and Fire. :P

    How is this implied? In the "worlds of if," maybe. But I see no reason to think that happened to the dragon?

    taeric on
  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I don't see how they implied that at all. If anything they implied that the Dragon is successful every time around, or else Shaitan would win and existence would cease to be.

    clsCorwin on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    After reading the last book, I'm thinking that the food spoiling etc. is less about the DO and more about Rand's state of mind.
    A "The King and the Land are One" sort of thing. It seems the harder Rand gets, the more it seems to happen, culminating in Rand basically saying "Screw you Arad Doman, I'm outta here", then all the food in the granaries spoiling.

    Aether on
  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I think its more of a combination of the DO and his bubbles of evil and Rand's taveren nature inevitably drawing most of these bubbles to him.

    clsCorwin on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Fuck no, it's probably the DO. He is a total dickwad.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited December 2009
    clsCorwin wrote: »
    I don't see how they implied that at all. If anything they implied that the Dragon is successful every time around, or else Shaitan would win and existence would cease to be.

    It's been implied many times by agents of the Dark One that he has been converted or killed. Perhaps not in this portion of the cycle, but in previous turning nontheless. Whether this is true or not, I don't know.

    Lady Eri on
    The Wheel of Calculadon turns, and then suddenly? Orbital lasers.
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The only person in the Dark One's forces I'd consider honest would be Moradin, and he's insane. Of course that includes the Dark One himself.

    Lanfear was when she was talk to/about Lews Therin as well, but that didn't go so well...

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    clsCorwin wrote: »
    I think its more of a combination of the DO and his bubbles of evil and Rand's taveren nature inevitably drawing most of these bubbles to him.
    The Gathering Storm
    There's also the involvement of the True Power to think about. Which I certainly thought was an interesting twist, and makes me wonder just how much control the Dark One actually has over it. And, of course, how much 'he' knows about the link between Rand and Elan/Ishamael/Moridin.

    Linden on
    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Kamar wrote: »
    Am I the only one somewhat bummed out by the idea of the Wheel itself, even ignoring the fact that logically speaking TDO will inevitably win? I find myself hoping the Wheel gets broken in some not-entirely-horrible way, maybe by Rand Balefiring the shit out of TDO or something.

    Jordan himself says he prefers the idea of Linear Time to Circular Time.

    But it's an interesting concept anyway. I liked that the end of the book addressed it.
    After reading the last book, I'm thinking that the food spoiling etc. is less about the DO and more about Rand's state of mind.

    I believe Sanderson has confirmed this and said we'll get it explained better in the book latter.

    Remember that Rand is the Fisher King. He's Arthur (sorta) from those Grail Myths and such. "The Land is one with the Dragon Reborn and he is one with the Land" and all that shit.

    shryke on
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