The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent
vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums
here.
We now return to our regularly scheduled PA Forums. Please let me (Hahnsoo1) know if something isn't working. The Holiday Forum will remain up until January 10, 2025.
Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight
Posts
I think it might actually come from the Pattern itself, much like the regular One Power comes from the Wheel of Time. And thats why the Dark One has so much control over the Pattern, being able to pull individuals back from death, and the bubbles of evil chance sliding along the pattern.
Rand being so strongly ta'veren finally allowed him access to it in his moment of desperation.
I also think that goes back to needing 3 amazingly powerful Ta'veren for the Last Battle in Rand, Mat, and Perrin. They need all 3 of them to try and remove the Dark Ones access to the One Power and rebind him to the pattern, which essentially becomes his prison, and begins the entire cycle over again.
MWO: Adamski
See how many books I've read so far in 2010
Also what Cadsuane said in either Crown of Swords or Path of Daggers where if Rand kept on the way he was, a world in which he won would be little better than if the Dark One did.
Yeah, they've said it many times and Rand 'saw' it hundreds of times when he messed up trying to use the traveling stone. Far as we know all those realties were 'real' and that's just counting THIS cycle. Of course, it could all be not real with a few words, but so far it seems like a likely situation.
True Power and Rand:
True Power and Rand:
MWO: Adamski
While possible I think that's all reaching a bit, but then again weirder things have happened. I just don't think he'll ever explain it in fine detail like that. And I'm pretty sure there isn't anything about Nynaeve resurrecting anyone. But then I may be forgetting something.
And I'm pretty sure Min had a reading about Nyneave basically healing death. I'm guessing that is how Rand will die and live again. Unless she goes with Mat to get Moiraine. We still don't know why she is still alive, though Lanfear was killed.
MWO: Adamski
Wasn't the first part about healing stilling?
The second bit will probably be mentioned in the next book.
I realize Moraine warned against asking questions after the dark. I just also know better than to take everything she said at face value. She was wrong about a lot of things back when she said that.
Once he started remembering his old life, it freaked him out...but now he's realized the truth and remembers the entirety of his lives. Of course, it's a subject of philosophical debate whether he's even either one of them now that he is both, but yeah. The fact that what we know of Lews Therin points to him being very much like Rand in everything but the details indicates that they could merge seamlessly without fuss, though, to me.
I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.
About the prophecies:
Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.
So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.
Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?
My predictions for the next book:
Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).
They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.
RJ has said that there's a very good chance one of the 2 prophecies about the Crystal Throne and the Dragon Reborn are wrong.
Essentially, Ishamael may have done some editing at some point in the past to one of them.
Yes, but that's pretty much all Winter's Heart was too, so...
Even still, I think that both of those prophecies are true. I think the Dragon has bound the Daughter of the Nine Moons through Mat. Mat is bound to Rand, Tuon and Mat are now bound in marriage. And, now that Rand's learned to laugh and cry again, I can see him bowing to the Crystal Throne (prob not the real ter'angrel one, but whatever plain throne Fortuona is using on this side of the world) to get the truce he needs. I don't think he'll serve the Empress the way she thinks he will, but I can see him showing respect in a way he wouldn't previously have been willing to display.
Whenever the three of them get together, Rand's new personality and the Mat/Tuon relationship will allow an alliance/truce to be forged.
While I agree that Rand and his three ladies are going to get married before the Last Battle, I think these Egewere will be too busy uniting the Tower and hunting for Messana. Thom and Moiraine will probably declare their love, but, like Egewene/Gawyn, will probably marry after Tarmon Gaidin.
I think Nynaeve will be a bit smug about Lan being hers now, perhaps a little miffed about how Lan's bond was passed, but I don't think she'll hurt Moiraine. These last few months (years?) have taught her a lot. She understands better what it means to be an Aes Sedai, and that it was necessary to take them all away from Edmond's Field. I think she'll discover that her desire for revenge faded a while ago.
I did enjoy Winter's Heart more this time around though. Partly because of things this thread brought to my attention that I hadn't noticed about certain characters (such as Isam) and lots of back-linking to previous events I hadn't noticed. That and there is more book-time passed in this one. It probably also helped that I read it over the course of a week while commuting to work and at lunch, where last time it was basically a one-sitting deal on a trip to Oklahoma.
On a completely useless note, I finally figured out why I hated Tuon's new name - it reminds me of Bib Fortuna in Star Wars, who always creeped me out. Man I'm such a nerd.
About the Nine Moons prophecy -
Rand and the True Power:
That said, it appears to me that Rand can tap the TP through Moridin. One can assume that the DO doesn't notice this, or doesn't understand what's happening, or he'd pull the right from Rand immediately. Or if he does know, perhaps he hopes Rand will become addicted like Moridin, another attempt to pull him to his side.
And the TP has been said by every Chosen with a POV that it is horribly addictive, and should only be used in dire straights. Most of the Chosen wouldn't use it when they had the access. I assume the "feeling good" part of it is part of the lure.
The Nine Moons Prophecy:
I assume that the prophecy will be fulfilled somewhat like this: Rand goes back to Fortuona, says sorry, bows, and forges a deal. The Seanchan keep the South and the West, and assist him in the Last Battle. Bing, both prophecies in a way fulfilled.
The Choden Kal:
And speaking of that last spoiler...:
In thinking about this, the answer now seems pretty simple. The south and west belong to the Seanchan. The north and east to Rand. What about the three?
Then I thought about it, and this came to me. Cadsuane figured out that Callandor required 3 people to use properly. Two women, one man. We know Alivia will assist Rand in dying, whatever that means.
I think the Three are representative of the land, that's why the prophecy lists them together. From the Seanchan (South and West) comes Alivia. From the Aes Sedai (North and East, one must assume the references match each other, and the Aes Sedai only have power in the north and east) will undoubtedly be Moiraine (Rand thinks he will fail without the help of a woman who is dead and gone). Then Rand.
From what I can tell, this pieces a number of prophecies together, and one of Egwene's Dreams (I think she was the one who told Rand about the woman dead and gone, or was that Min?).
Rand in general:
However, the end of the book seems to be trying to say that the actual Rand personality has been "asleep" for a long time. How long? Not entirely certain. After he came out of that box, he was very different. It's possible that instead of just creating a voice, he fractured his own self into the two distinct people. On one hand, you have Rand, who is strong and unyielding, unaffected the terrible things he must do. Then you have LTT, who psychologically is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is weak and pathetic, constantly bemoaning every mistake ever made.
Does this mean that Rand will have to reintroduce himself to people now? I doubt it. I assume that his realization on Dragonmount simply means he is one whole psyche again, rather than the fractured self he's been since Dumai's Wells. I question how literal this is.
Interesting. Now I will have to reread and reassess my theory. Or, wait until the next book. But probably the first. I'm like that.
Asmodean:
If it's true, this makes me think that Graendal didn't in fact do it. She only had like one POV, and I didn't see anything in there that made any case for her.
This had better be figured out quickly, since we're running out of suspects! :P
Also, it's Graendal.
WRT Rand:
I think Rand is unique. He's not just the standard "Your soul gets spun out into a new body with a new life and new personality and all that". He's LITERALLY LTT come back. Hence, all the memories.
I think the revelation at the end is partially his admitting this to himself. He will never hear LTT's voice again because it was just a voice in his head created by the memories of his previous life he couldn't deal with.
But now he has. He IS LTT and Rand Al'Thor.
In his old FAQ at the end of 2007 Sanderson said he's reveal it in MoL, but this is before they decided to split the books. I can't seem to find anything about him saying that it's in the Gathering Storm rather than one of the other two books.
Random theory I found:
I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.
WRT Graendal:
I need to reread the last book a couple more times to find other things. This is perhaps my favorite part of the books, finding all the little tidbits they hide in there. :P
Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?
He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.
Who did the deed to big A. Maybe on someone's orders.
It'll be clear in the book that deals with the dream tower and moraine and such.
Plus, all the talk from all of the other heroes when the horn was blown.
The talk from the other heroes was the standard stuff we expect. The soul is reborn, but not the person. Not the memories, not the personality, not the body, nothing. That's the norm.
The Dragon Reborn is LTT reborn. LTT come back from the dead, in some fashion. Not the soul of the Light's Champion come back (although it's also that) but this specific guy.
It'll also probably be part of the answer to the whole "Live, Die, Live Again" thing.
The Min viewing regarding 2 people merging into 1 and one dying, I don't think it's referring to LTT
It was not referring to LTT because Rand was LTT all along, neither of them died when he has his epiphany.
- "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
But none of that indicates a memory dump of all his past lives into his head.