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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

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Posts

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Regarding the True Power and Rands slide:
    I dont think that the True Power is actually something that comes directly from the Dark One, but is instead something he has access to, then grants access to it through himself to his followers.

    I think it might actually come from the Pattern itself, much like the regular One Power comes from the Wheel of Time. And thats why the Dark One has so much control over the Pattern, being able to pull individuals back from death, and the bubbles of evil chance sliding along the pattern.

    Rand being so strongly ta'veren finally allowed him access to it in his moment of desperation.

    I also think that goes back to needing 3 amazingly powerful Ta'veren for the Last Battle in Rand, Mat, and Perrin. They need all 3 of them to try and remove the Dark Ones access to the One Power and rebind him to the pattern, which essentially becomes his prison, and begins the entire cycle over again.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Or maybe cuts his access to the True Source eliminating any defence he would have and allowing Rand the opportunity to Balefiore his ass out for good.

    clsCorwin on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    shryke wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    Am I the only one somewhat bummed out by the idea of the Wheel itself, even ignoring the fact that logically speaking TDO will inevitably win? I find myself hoping the Wheel gets broken in some not-entirely-horrible way, maybe by Rand Balefiring the shit out of TDO or something.

    Jordan himself says he prefers the idea of Linear Time to Circular Time.

    But it's an interesting concept anyway. I liked that the end of the book addressed it.
    After reading the last book, I'm thinking that the food spoiling etc. is less about the DO and more about Rand's state of mind.

    I believe Sanderson has confirmed this and said we'll get it explained better in the book latter.

    Remember that Rand is the Fisher King. He's Arthur (sorta) from those Grail Myths and such. "The Land is one with the Dragon Reborn and he is one with the Land" and all that shit.
    That would kind of tie back to the battle at Falme where the Hereos/Seanchean battle mirrored the Rand/Ba'alzemon fight.

    Also what Cadsuane said in either Crown of Swords or Path of Daggers where if Rand kept on the way he was, a world in which he won would be little better than if the Dark One did.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    clsCorwin wrote: »
    I don't see how they implied that at all. If anything they implied that the Dragon is successful every time around, or else Shaitan would win and existence would cease to be.

    It's been implied many times by agents of the Dark One that he has been converted or killed. Perhaps not in this portion of the cycle, but in previous turning nontheless. Whether this is true or not, I don't know.

    Yeah, they've said it many times and Rand 'saw' it hundreds of times when he messed up trying to use the traveling stone. Far as we know all those realties were 'real' and that's just counting THIS cycle. Of course, it could all be not real with a few words, but so far it seems like a likely situation.

    True Power and Rand:
    I like the idea the True Power isn't from the DO, he's just stealing it and granting access. That would explain why it feels so good, though I guess that can also just be a lure on it. The fact Rand got all black aura-y doesn't help. He'll have to go into that more even though it seems the 'problem' was solved at the end of the book.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I could have sworn that they said if the Dark One wins in any reality, he wins in all realities. And that there is only 1 Dark One and 1 Creator for all the realities.

    True Power and Rand:
    The black aura might not have had anything to do with the use of the True Power either. The cloud cover started long before Rand used the True Power, and it seems like the cloud cover disappated along with the black aura when he laughed/cried. Which goes back to how Rand winning the last battle after he loses his humanity being as bad as him losing it.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2009
    I'm convinced we are going to somehow see that Rand and all of the heroes ever are merely facets of the creator. They arose and each represent a different understanding or view of the creator. The dark one is similar in that he/it simply represents all of the baser qualities of the creator. Thus, creation is simply a constant battle between them all and a vessel for the gift of life to everyone else. As such, I believe it will be a power of one of the heroes to actually create something in the pattern, and we will find that balefire is far from final. (I also believe we will see that recalling threads that are nearby in the pattern is something that is not limited to the dark one. I think there was a prophecy about Nyneave resurrecting someone.)

    taeric on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    taeric wrote: »
    I'm convinced we are going to somehow see that Rand and all of the heroes ever are merely facets of the creator. They arose and each represent a different understanding or view of the creator. The dark one is similar in that he/it simply represents all of the baser qualities of the creator. Thus, creation is simply a constant battle between them all and a vessel for the gift of life to everyone else. As such, I believe it will be a power of one of the heroes to actually create something in the pattern, and we will find that balefire is far from final. (I also believe we will see that recalling threads that are nearby in the pattern is something that is not limited to the dark one. I think there was a prophecy about Nyneave resurrecting someone.)

    While possible I think that's all reaching a bit, but then again weirder things have happened. I just don't think he'll ever explain it in fine detail like that. And I'm pretty sure there isn't anything about Nynaeve resurrecting anyone. But then I may be forgetting something.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    Oh, I'm not entirely serious on that reading. At times I do think something like that fits, I doubt we'll see it.

    And I'm pretty sure Min had a reading about Nyneave basically healing death. I'm guessing that is how Rand will die and live again. Unless she goes with Mat to get Moiraine. We still don't know why she is still alive, though Lanfear was killed.

    taeric on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Moraine warned Rand and Mat not to ask questions of the E'elfin or A'elfin that go too close to the Dark One since they absolutely hate him. So one of the Forsaken falling into their clutches probably explains why they ripped so much of her ability to channel out of her before they killed her.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    taeric wrote: »
    Oh, I'm not entirely serious on that reading. At times I do think something like that fits, I doubt we'll see it.

    And I'm pretty sure Min had a reading about Nyneave basically healing death. I'm guessing that is how Rand will die and live again. Unless she goes with Mat to get Moiraine. We still don't know why she is still alive, though Lanfear was killed.

    Wasn't the first part about healing stilling?

    The second bit will probably be mentioned in the next book.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    I can not recall where, but I am still pretty sure somebody had a vision of Nyneave healing death. I know people on the other WoT sites have at least mentioned it. I will try and find a reference later.

    I realize Moraine warned against asking questions after the dark. I just also know better than to take everything she said at face value. She was wrong about a lot of things back when she said that. :) The only other two people we know that went through that door were killed. (Well, I guess Mat wasn't technically killed.) I guess it comes down to what she knew about that door. The other one you asked questions, this one you made requests, but were supposed to bargain for a price.

    taeric on
  • DisenchanterDisenchanter Magnolia, DERegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I do not think the DO can be destroyed as it would offset the whole yin and yan thing between the Creator and DO. Rand has had glimpses of where Lews went wrong, and is trying to learn how to fix it. Remember the DO does not have a hand in all of the ages, he was sealed by the creator at the point of creation, and was only freed because Aes Sedai bored into his prison. If the Creator did not destroy the DO, than there is probably a reason. Rand will properly seal the DO using a circle, and the Wheel will weave for eternity.

    Disenchanter on
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    Well, Rand had a glimpse at all of the lives he has ever lived. I wonder if he received a memory that way as to how all of this will pan out. (That is, he may no longer be limited to just Lews' memories.)

    taeric on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    We really have no idea what Rand knows or doesn't anymore. According to the last book:
    Rand and Lews Therin were never separate people, so then it follows if there were other Dragons none of them are separate either. Or something. I don't really 'get' how they AREN'T 2 different people (thought connected, obviously), but that's what it said. Maybe that wasn't supposed to be taken literally...or...something...Rand just being nuts isn't much better...

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I think of it like this: Rand had "forgotten" being Lews Therin, and built a whole new set of memories.

    Once he started remembering his old life, it freaked him out...but now he's realized the truth and remembers the entirety of his lives. Of course, it's a subject of philosophical debate whether he's even either one of them now that he is both, but yeah. The fact that what we know of Lews Therin points to him being very much like Rand in everything but the details indicates that they could merge seamlessly without fuss, though, to me.

    Kamar on
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    I think it went further.
    He remembered more than just being Lews. He remembered everyone he had ever been. Ever.

    taeric on
  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited January 2010
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.

    About the prophecies:
    So we know the Karaethon Cycle says that Rand will "bind the Nine Moons to him", which is pretty darn obvious that it's the Daughter of the Nine Moons. We also know that the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon will bow to the Crystal Throne.

    Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

    So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.

    Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?

    My predictions for the next book:
    Min is going to do that sister ritual with Aviendha and Elaine. Then they are going to get married. Bow chica bowwow!

    Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).

    They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.

    Spacemilk on
  • CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.
    Nynaeve reached up to her long, single braid - but stopped short of tugging on it. She was getting better at that.

    Cantide on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.

    About the prophecies:
    So we know the Karaethon Cycle says that Rand will "bind the Nine Moons to him", which is pretty darn obvious that it's the Daughter of the Nine Moons. We also know that the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon will bow to the Crystal Throne.

    Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

    So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.

    Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?

    My predictions for the next book:
    Min is going to do that sister ritual with Aviendha and Elaine. Then they are going to get married. Bow chica bowwow!

    Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).

    They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.

    RJ has said that there's a very good chance one of the 2 prophecies about the Crystal Throne and the Dragon Reborn are wrong.

    Essentially, Ishamael may have done some editing at some point in the past to one of them.

    shryke on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I just finished Winter's Heart in my re-readthrough in preparation for this new book. I have Crossroads of Twilight, but I'm having trouble deciding if I want to go through with reading it again. If I recall correctly, isn't that about 900 pages of nothing happening over the course of 3 days then suddenly there's 40 pages at the end of shit going down?

    Tofystedeth on
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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I just finished Winter's Heart in my re-readthrough in preparation for this new book. I have Crossroads of Twilight, but I'm having trouble deciding if I want to go through with reading it again. If I recall correctly, isn't that about 900 pages of nothing happening over the course of 3 days then suddenly there's 40 pages at the end of shit going down?

    Yes, but that's pretty much all Winter's Heart was too, so...

    Salvation122 on
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  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Re: Nine Moons:
    Tuon is bound to Mat, who is bound to Rand, so that particular prophecy could be considered fulfilled, sort of.

    Artereis on
  • sterling3763sterling3763 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.

    About the prophecies:
    So we know the Karaethon Cycle says that Rand will "bind the Nine Moons to him", which is pretty darn obvious that it's the Daughter of the Nine Moons. We also know that the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon will bow to the Crystal Throne.

    Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

    So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.

    Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?
    Besides darkfriends, it's quite plausible that some empress changed the prophecy, just because she thought it would be safer/more appropriate if the Dragon served the throne.

    Even still, I think that both of those prophecies are true. I think the Dragon has bound the Daughter of the Nine Moons through Mat. Mat is bound to Rand, Tuon and Mat are now bound in marriage. And, now that Rand's learned to laugh and cry again, I can see him bowing to the Crystal Throne (prob not the real ter'angrel one, but whatever plain throne Fortuona is using on this side of the world) to get the truce he needs. I don't think he'll serve the Empress the way she thinks he will, but I can see him showing respect in a way he wouldn't previously have been willing to display.

    Whenever the three of them get together, Rand's new personality and the Mat/Tuon relationship will allow an alliance/truce to be forged.

    My predictions for the next book:
    Min is going to do that sister ritual with Aviendha and Elaine. Then they are going to get married. Bow chica bowwow!

    Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).

    They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.

    While I agree that Rand and his three ladies are going to get married before the Last Battle, I think these Egewere will be too busy uniting the Tower and hunting for Messana. Thom and Moiraine will probably declare their love, but, like Egewene/Gawyn, will probably marry after Tarmon Gaidin.

    I think Nynaeve will be a bit smug about Lan being hers now, perhaps a little miffed about how Lan's bond was passed, but I don't think she'll hurt Moiraine. These last few months (years?) have taught her a lot. She understands better what it means to be an Aes Sedai, and that it was necessary to take them all away from Edmond's Field. I think she'll discover that her desire for revenge faded a while ago.

    sterling3763 on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I just finished Winter's Heart in my re-readthrough in preparation for this new book. I have Crossroads of Twilight, but I'm having trouble deciding if I want to go through with reading it again. If I recall correctly, isn't that about 900 pages of nothing happening over the course of 3 days then suddenly there's 40 pages at the end of shit going down?

    Yes, but that's pretty much all Winter's Heart was too, so...

    I did enjoy Winter's Heart more this time around though. Partly because of things this thread brought to my attention that I hadn't noticed about certain characters (such as Isam) and lots of back-linking to previous events I hadn't noticed. That and there is more book-time passed in this one. It probably also helped that I read it over the course of a week while commuting to work and at lunch, where last time it was basically a one-sitting deal on a trip to Oklahoma.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Those are some interesting thoughts about the prophecy. No matter how it turns out, I'm sure it'll be good. Logically, though, it seems highly unlikely that all of the prophecies could've survived in their purest form; it makes sense that TDO would try his hardest to corrupt them and screw Rand up, or even put something in so Rand puts himself in a weakened position so they can kill him. So if the Nine Moons prophecy isn't a messed up one, I think we will eventually find one that is.

    On a completely useless note, I finally figured out why I hated Tuon's new name - it reminds me of Bib Fortuna in Star Wars, who always creeped me out. Man I'm such a nerd. :(

    Spacemilk on
  • adejaanadejaan Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.

    About the prophecies:
    So we know the Karaethon Cycle says that Rand will "bind the Nine Moons to him", which is pretty darn obvious that it's the Daughter of the Nine Moons. We also know that the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon will bow to the Crystal Throne.

    Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

    So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.

    Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?

    My predictions for the next book:
    Min is going to do that sister ritual with Aviendha and Elaine. Then they are going to get married. Bow chica bowwow!

    Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).

    They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.

    About the Nine Moons prophecy -
    It says Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and the Seanchan court is called the Court of the Nine Moons. So I always took "nine moons" to mean all of Seanchan, not just Tuon.

    adejaan on
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  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited January 2010
    adejaan wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I got the hardback copy for Christmas, and I finished it the day after I got it. I loved the newest installment, I can definitely see Sanderson's hand and that's a good thing. I'm rereading it now.

    I will say that as I was reading, I noticed that when Nynaeve first came in, she immediately did a sniff/braid tug and I instantly felt the RAGE NYNAEVE NEEDS TO DIE building inside of me. Then this incredibly annoying habit petered out and *gasp* we were left with a real character for Nynaeve! For the first time in the whole series! My god, how did it happen? Seriously though, in every single book I have wondered how Lan could even stand her.

    About the prophecies:
    So we know the Karaethon Cycle says that Rand will "bind the Nine Moons to him", which is pretty darn obvious that it's the Daughter of the Nine Moons. We also know that the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon will bow to the Crystal Throne.

    Here's the problem: When Tuon met with Rand in this book, she was still in morning and was therefore still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Yet they didn't come to any sort of agreement, so as far as I can tell there was no "bind". The instant that Rand left, Tuon assumed the Crystal Throne, and IIRC it explicity said that she was no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

    So: Does that mean the prophecy was broken? Is "Daughter of the Nine Moons" a title that was specific only to Tuon, or is it one given to the heir of the Crystal Throne? If it's the latter, then the Daughter of the Nine Moons does not currently exist - and won't for a while - so Rand is SOL for trying to fulfill that prophecy. Since I'm pretty sure it says in the book that Tuon is absolutely not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore - it's not like an extra title that she retains, after all she takes an entirely different name even - I'm pretty sure it's not the former.

    Also I thought it was very interesting what someone said about Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and the prophecy there. That makes me wonder how many of these prophecies are fake, or wrong, or changed by Darkfriends. How easy would it be for a Darkfriend to change a word here, a word there, and screw up the whole meaning as these manuscripts are handed down?

    My predictions for the next book:
    Min is going to do that sister ritual with Aviendha and Elaine. Then they are going to get married. Bow chica bowwow!

    Egwene is going to bond Gawyn (duh) and marry him (double duh).

    They're going to find Moiraine, probably near the end of the book. Thom and Moiraine are gonna declare their undying love. Nynaeve is gonna bitch slap Moiraine, maybe not in the next book, but definitely at some point when she gets the chance.

    About the Nine Moons prophecy -
    It says Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and the Seanchan court is called the Court of the Nine Moons. So I always took "nine moons" to mean all of Seanchan, not just Tuon.
    Ooh! I like this explanation. Thank you!

    Spacemilk on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    My thoughts on a bunch of stuff discussed in this thread:

    Rand and the True Power:
    It's been pretty obvious that Moridin and Rand are linked after their One Power/True Power crossed Balefires. Watch Moridin carefully through the books, he shows signs of feeling everything Rand does. In this book, you can see during I believe the Demandred/Graendal/Mesaana meeting that he feels the loss of Rand's left hand. He also no longer channels the OP, just the TP, so there's a good chance that he feels the same sickness that Rand does when he channels.

    That said, it appears to me that Rand can tap the TP through Moridin. One can assume that the DO doesn't notice this, or doesn't understand what's happening, or he'd pull the right from Rand immediately. Or if he does know, perhaps he hopes Rand will become addicted like Moridin, another attempt to pull him to his side.

    And the TP has been said by every Chosen with a POV that it is horribly addictive, and should only be used in dire straights. Most of the Chosen wouldn't use it when they had the access. I assume the "feeling good" part of it is part of the lure.

    The Nine Moons Prophecy:
    Nowhere does it say that Rand will SERVE the Crystal Throne, simply that he will bow to it. Not the first time that a prophecy has been exceptionally literal. Think the Aes Sedai Three Oaths. Bowing to a throne still leaves a ton of wiggle room for doing whatever you want to.

    I assume that the prophecy will be fulfilled somewhat like this: Rand goes back to Fortuona, says sorry, bows, and forges a deal. The Seanchan keep the South and the West, and assist him in the Last Battle. Bing, both prophecies in a way fulfilled.

    The Choden Kal:
    Rand destroyed the Choden Kal very purposefully. And there are reasons listed in the book. For one, it is way too powerful of a sa'angreal for anyone to use safely. And secondly, he realized (as many others did), that nowhere in the prophecies is the Choden Kal written about. Such a powerful sa'angreal would most certainly have some reference somewhere. Instead, it's Callandor that's written about. I think Rand realized that the Choden Kal was not the weapon he needed, but instead he would wield Callandor instead.

    And speaking of that last spoiler...:
    The South and West shall be as one. The North and East shall be as one. The Three shall be as one.

    In thinking about this, the answer now seems pretty simple. The south and west belong to the Seanchan. The north and east to Rand. What about the three?

    Then I thought about it, and this came to me. Cadsuane figured out that Callandor required 3 people to use properly. Two women, one man. We know Alivia will assist Rand in dying, whatever that means.

    I think the Three are representative of the land, that's why the prophecy lists them together. From the Seanchan (South and West) comes Alivia. From the Aes Sedai (North and East, one must assume the references match each other, and the Aes Sedai only have power in the north and east) will undoubtedly be Moiraine (Rand thinks he will fail without the help of a woman who is dead and gone). Then Rand.

    From what I can tell, this pieces a number of prophecies together, and one of Egwene's Dreams (I think she was the one who told Rand about the woman dead and gone, or was that Min?).

    Rand in general:
    I have no clue if the end of the book was intended to be quite so literal. LTT didn't show up until the Rand in the Box incident, so I have always assumed that it was his way of dealing with a terrible situation. Rand should have known all these things, but he invented a voice for them as a way of dealing with extreme stress. Also, Rand was for a very long time trying to come to grips with being the DR, so perhaps that helped that along.

    However, the end of the book seems to be trying to say that the actual Rand personality has been "asleep" for a long time. How long? Not entirely certain. After he came out of that box, he was very different. It's possible that instead of just creating a voice, he fractured his own self into the two distinct people. On one hand, you have Rand, who is strong and unyielding, unaffected the terrible things he must do. Then you have LTT, who psychologically is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is weak and pathetic, constantly bemoaning every mistake ever made.

    Does this mean that Rand will have to reintroduce himself to people now? I doubt it. I assume that his realization on Dragonmount simply means he is one whole psyche again, rather than the fractured self he's been since Dumai's Wells. I question how literal this is.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • galenbladegalenblade Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Ender wrote: »

    Rand in general:
    I have no clue if the end of the book was intended to be quite so literal. LTT didn't show up until the Rand in the Box incident, so I have always assumed that it was his way of dealing with a terrible situation. Rand should have known all these things, but he invented a voice for them as a way of dealing with extreme stress. Also, Rand was for a very long time trying to come to grips with being the DR, so perhaps that helped that along.

    However, the end of the book seems to be trying to say that the actual Rand personality has been "asleep" for a long time. How long? Not entirely certain. After he came out of that box, he was very different. It's possible that instead of just creating a voice, he fractured his own self into the two distinct people. On one hand, you have Rand, who is strong and unyielding, unaffected the terrible things he must do. Then you have LTT, who psychologically is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is weak and pathetic, constantly bemoaning every mistake ever made.

    Does this mean that Rand will have to reintroduce himself to people now? I doubt it. I assume that his realization on Dragonmount simply means he is one whole psyche again, rather than the fractured self he's been since Dumai's Wells. I question how literal this is.
    LTT appeared in Rand's head before Dumai's Wells. It started at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. The box might've strengthened him, but he was definitely there beforehand.

    galenblade on
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  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    galenblade wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »

    Rand in general:
    I have no clue if the end of the book was intended to be quite so literal. LTT didn't show up until the Rand in the Box incident, so I have always assumed that it was his way of dealing with a terrible situation. Rand should have known all these things, but he invented a voice for them as a way of dealing with extreme stress. Also, Rand was for a very long time trying to come to grips with being the DR, so perhaps that helped that along.

    However, the end of the book seems to be trying to say that the actual Rand personality has been "asleep" for a long time. How long? Not entirely certain. After he came out of that box, he was very different. It's possible that instead of just creating a voice, he fractured his own self into the two distinct people. On one hand, you have Rand, who is strong and unyielding, unaffected the terrible things he must do. Then you have LTT, who psychologically is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is weak and pathetic, constantly bemoaning every mistake ever made.

    Does this mean that Rand will have to reintroduce himself to people now? I doubt it. I assume that his realization on Dragonmount simply means he is one whole psyche again, rather than the fractured self he's been since Dumai's Wells. I question how literal this is.
    LTT appeared in Rand's head before Dumai's Wells. It started at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. The box might've strengthened him, but he was definitely there beforehand.

    Interesting. Now I will have to reread and reassess my theory. Or, wait until the next book. But probably the first. I'm like that.

    Asmodean:
    So, my brain seems to remember that Brandon Sanderson said there would be a small clue as to Asmodean's killer in Gathering Storm. I could be remembering this wrong, but it sounds right. Anyone see anything?

    If it's true, this makes me think that Graendal didn't in fact do it. She only had like one POV, and I didn't see anything in there that made any case for her.

    This had better be figured out quickly, since we're running out of suspects! :P

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    He said it would appear in the last books, not specifically in TGS.

    Also, it's Graendal.


    WRT Rand:
    One thing I remember being mentioned earlier in the series is that the very IDEA of "The Dragon Reborn" is just .... odd. People get reborn, but the idea of one specific person coming back at a specific time and everything is .... unprecedented.

    I think Rand is unique. He's not just the standard "Your soul gets spun out into a new body with a new life and new personality and all that". He's LITERALLY LTT come back. Hence, all the memories.

    I think the revelation at the end is partially his admitting this to himself. He will never hear LTT's voice again because it was just a voice in his head created by the memories of his previous life he couldn't deal with.

    But now he has. He IS LTT and Rand Al'Thor.

    shryke on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Ender wrote: »
    galenblade wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »

    Rand in general:
    I have no clue if the end of the book was intended to be quite so literal. LTT didn't show up until the Rand in the Box incident, so I have always assumed that it was his way of dealing with a terrible situation. Rand should have known all these things, but he invented a voice for them as a way of dealing with extreme stress. Also, Rand was for a very long time trying to come to grips with being the DR, so perhaps that helped that along.

    However, the end of the book seems to be trying to say that the actual Rand personality has been "asleep" for a long time. How long? Not entirely certain. After he came out of that box, he was very different. It's possible that instead of just creating a voice, he fractured his own self into the two distinct people. On one hand, you have Rand, who is strong and unyielding, unaffected the terrible things he must do. Then you have LTT, who psychologically is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is weak and pathetic, constantly bemoaning every mistake ever made.

    Does this mean that Rand will have to reintroduce himself to people now? I doubt it. I assume that his realization on Dragonmount simply means he is one whole psyche again, rather than the fractured self he's been since Dumai's Wells. I question how literal this is.
    LTT appeared in Rand's head before Dumai's Wells. It started at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. The box might've strengthened him, but he was definitely there beforehand.

    Interesting. Now I will have to reread and reassess my theory. Or, wait until the next book. But probably the first. I'm like that.

    Asmodean:
    So, my brain seems to remember that Brandon Sanderson said there would be a small clue as to Asmodean's killer in Gathering Storm. I could be remembering this wrong, but it sounds right. Anyone see anything?

    If it's true, this makes me think that Graendal didn't in fact do it. She only had like one POV, and I didn't see anything in there that made any case for her.

    This had better be figured out quickly, since we're running out of suspects! :P

    In his old FAQ at the end of 2007 Sanderson said he's reveal it in MoL, but this is before they decided to split the books. I can't seem to find anything about him saying that it's in the Gathering Storm rather than one of the other two books.

    Random theory I found:
    While googling this I came across a theory that it's Graendal based on the prologue and the fact that she's confident that there are only seven forsaken left. This is then follows up with Moridin praising her for striking at something and her initiative to do so. I'm not convinced that this is the explanation that Sanderson promised though as it's completely hidden and just as bad as RJ's it's obvious who killed him comment.

    khain on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    WRT Graendal:
    Interesting catch Khain. I'll have to look that up again and do some counting. That could very easily be the info I was looking for.

    I need to reread the last book a couple more times to find other things. This is perhaps my favorite part of the books, finding all the little tidbits they hide in there. :P

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Ender wrote: »
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?

    He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.

    shryke on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    It's very clearly...
    The guy who is two guys.


    Who did the deed to big A. Maybe on someone's orders.

    It'll be clear in the book that deals with the dream tower and moraine and such.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?

    He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.
    He only had LT speaking in his head, but when he had his epiphany at the end of the last book, his memories go back forever across an infinite number of lives.

    Plus, all the talk from all of the other heroes when the horn was blown.

    taeric on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    taeric wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?

    He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.
    He only had LT speaking in his head, but when he had his epiphany at the end of the last book, his memories go back forever across an infinite number of lives.

    Plus, all the talk from all of the other heroes when the horn was blown.
    I think you are taking that whole bit far too literally as "He remembers everything his soul has ever done" or something. Rereading it right now, I REALLY don't think it's that. It seemed more like a momentary epiphany. He "sees the whole world in his mind's eye" too but I don't think he's was or is omniscient either.

    The talk from the other heroes was the standard stuff we expect. The soul is reborn, but not the person. Not the memories, not the personality, not the body, nothing. That's the norm.

    The Dragon Reborn is LTT reborn. LTT come back from the dead, in some fashion. Not the soul of the Light's Champion come back (although it's also that) but this specific guy.

    It'll also probably be part of the answer to the whole "Live, Die, Live Again" thing.

    shryke on
  • fjafjanfjafjan Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Okey so I have a theory, it's not incredibly solid, and I'm not that immersed in the "theories community"(so it might be common knowledge) but I'm going to throw it out there.
    The Min viewing regarding 2 people merging into 1 and one dying, I don't think it's referring to LTT
    I think it's referring to Moridin. All through the book Rand got this dark aura, there was an evil in him, just as we see that Moridin was looking more like Rand than previously. I think they are bothing becoming the same person by the bond they are sharing, and they became even more so when Rand used this bond to channel the dark one (forget the proper name).
    It was not referring to LTT because Rand was LTT all along, neither of them died when he has his epiphany.

    fjafjan on
    Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
    - "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
  • taerictaeric Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    taeric wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?

    He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.
    He only had LT speaking in his head, but when he had his epiphany at the end of the last book, his memories go back forever across an infinite number of lives.

    Plus, all the talk from all of the other heroes when the horn was blown.
    I think you are taking that whole bit far too literally as "He remembers everything his soul has ever done" or something. Rereading it right now, I REALLY don't think it's that. It seemed more like a momentary epiphany. He "sees the whole world in his mind's eye" too but I don't think he's was or is omniscient either.

    The talk from the other heroes was the standard stuff we expect. The soul is reborn, but not the person. Not the memories, not the personality, not the body, nothing. That's the norm.

    The Dragon Reborn is LTT reborn. LTT come back from the dead, in some fashion. Not the soul of the Light's Champion come back (although it's also that) but this specific guy.

    It'll also probably be part of the answer to the whole "Live, Die, Live Again" thing.
    I can grab the book again, if you want. But it is quite specific that the reason he finds joy again is that not only did he get a chance to live again, but so could everyone he killed. That is the "gift" that they may live and love again.

    taeric on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    taeric wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    taeric wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    WRT Rand:
    No, Rand isn't just LTT. He's every Dragon Reborn that's ever existed. A small difference.

    I suppose that does put a strain on the mind of a kid who used to herd sheep.

    Uh, no. Where's the evidence of this?

    He's only got 2 peoples memories in his head.
    He only had LT speaking in his head, but when he had his epiphany at the end of the last book, his memories go back forever across an infinite number of lives.

    Plus, all the talk from all of the other heroes when the horn was blown.
    I think you are taking that whole bit far too literally as "He remembers everything his soul has ever done" or something. Rereading it right now, I REALLY don't think it's that. It seemed more like a momentary epiphany. He "sees the whole world in his mind's eye" too but I don't think he's was or is omniscient either.

    The talk from the other heroes was the standard stuff we expect. The soul is reborn, but not the person. Not the memories, not the personality, not the body, nothing. That's the norm.

    The Dragon Reborn is LTT reborn. LTT come back from the dead, in some fashion. Not the soul of the Light's Champion come back (although it's also that) but this specific guy.

    It'll also probably be part of the answer to the whole "Live, Die, Live Again" thing.
    I can grab the book again, if you want. But it is quite specific that the reason he finds joy again is that not only did he get a chance to live again, but so could everyone he killed. That is the "gift" that they may live and love again.
    Yes I know.

    But none of that indicates a memory dump of all his past lives into his head.

    shryke on
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