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Arrogant Rich People: Taxation, Income Disparity, and the Shrinking Middle Class

2456741

Posts

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    besides, 'rights' to me mean things like 'the right to electricity' the 'right' to have clean water the 'right' to have access to medical treatments

    all of those things are NOT provided by the government

    I think they should be
    We have the right to bear arms, per the 2nd Amendment. Should the government hand out free firearms?

    Freedom of the press is a right. Should the government pay for the cost of running newspapers and other media?

    What you are proposing is that if something is a right, the government is obligated to pay for it. Or are you just suggesting that government needs to pay for certain rights that you like?

    well to me, there is a difference between "rights" to bear arms and "rights" to water/food/electricity/etc

    without one of those rights, you will wither and die
    the other is more of a freedom

    i think the two are often conflated, when I don't feel they mean the same thing

    the "right" to bear arms is really the government saying that they wont STOP you from getting guns
    I guess they aren't STOPPING us from getting food and water

    also- isn't a laywer provided for you if you can't afford one? Isn't HAVING a laywer a 'right'?

    It's almost as if somebody recognized that having the right to a lawyer absent the means to actually hire one was pretty meaningless, and destroyed one's realistic probability of a fair trial.

    I almost feel like an analogy between this and healthcare could be drawn.
    The reason you have the right to taxpayer funded counsel is because your need for that counsel is arising from the fact that government is charging you with a crime. Various courts have found that if government wants to limit your Constitutional rights (by putting you in prison), they need to provide you with the ability to defend yourself. AFAIK, the government isn't seeking to prevent anyone from obtaining medical treatment, so the two situations aren't analagous.

    Government services are the exact opposite of how the private sector works, in that the people who pay the least tend to get the most out of government.
    See, and most of us here simply won't agree, primarily because you seem to take "getting the most out of government" only in the most direct and literal sense.

    For instance, the CEO of Halliburton has probably never drawn a welfare check.
    Government contractors are a special case- they love government and expenditures of tax dollars. But, the CEO of Halliburton isn't rich because his tax dollars are somehow giving him a high return. He's rich because his company is able to tap into the spigot of tax money that government doles out to people for various reasons.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    ...want a fucking tax cut, which is a goddamned handout.


    That's a massively false statement, unless you believe the government has a presumed ownership of all private wealth and property.

    The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?
    wwtMask wrote: »
    rich people pay taxes for the privilege of being rich and having their riches protected from something like a populist revolution against their excesses.

    And this is akin to extortion. You're equating taxes to "protection money". EVERYONE benefits from a society of laws where wealth and property are protected.

    Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.
    Henroid wrote: »
    assholes like Rush Limbaugh who make millions, and then donate $100,000 a year to charity and pretend they've done more than their share and shouldn't pay high taxes, can eat a dick.

    Limbaugh is a private citizen, so nobody can be sure exactly what he gives, but here's a wikipedia listing on one of his charities:
    Leukemia and lymphoma telethon

    Limbaugh holds an annual fundraising telethon called the "EIB Cure-a-Thon"[81] for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society.[82] In 2006 the EIB Cure-a-Thon conducted its 16th annual telethon, raising $1.7 million;[83] totaling over $15 million since the first cure-a-thon.[84] According to Leukemia and Lymphoma Society annual reports, Limbaugh personally contributed between $100,000 and $499,999 from 2000–2005 and 2007,[85] and Limbaugh claims to have contributed around $250,000 in 2003, 2004 and 2005.[86] NewsMax reported Limbaugh donated $250,000 in 2006,[87] and the Society's 2006 annual report placed him in the $500,000 to $999,999 category.[85] Limbaugh donated $320,000 during the 2007 Cure-a-Thon[88] which the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society reported had raised $3.1 million.[89] On his radio program April 18, 2008, Limbaugh claimed to pledge $400,000 to the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society after being challenged by two listeners to increase his initial pledge of $300,000.[90]

    I feel like you missed the part where I said some good can come of even arrogant rich bastards.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    I have to disagree with the bolded. Wealthy and poor people get the same basic services from government in terms of law enforcement, roads, a court system and the like. However, per capita, poor people tend to consume more in the way of public services such as welfare, publicly-funded medical service and other welfare and social services programs.

    The argument that rich people somehow get more out of government than poor people doesn't hold water, unless you subscribe to the view that financial success or failure is due to the actions of government.

    I disagree with the super red. As an attorney, don't you benefit significantly more from the court system than a poor person. Hell, your entire trade is based on its existence.
    Everyone's livelihood is based, to one extent or another, on the existence of courts of law. The existence of enforceable contracts is a crucial requirement for any type of economy beyond the barter system. Now, granted, litigators (which I'm not) make a direct living off of the existence of a court system, but we'd all be pretty screwed without its existence.
    Similarly, a poor person gets an education for themselves from our school system. A wealthy person potentially gets a labor pool.
    The wealthy person gets an education from our schools system, same as the poor person. Wealthy people aren't hatched fully-grown.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »

    The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?

    They did the work initially to earn it, the government is just taking less from them in the first place. That's not a handout.
    wwtMask wrote: »

    Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.

    It's a lopsided way of seeing it. It presumes a state of anarchy and disarray and uses that threat as justification of high taxation and expansive government. That argument can easily be extended to justify any number of horrible things.
    wwtMask wrote: »

    I feel like you missed the part where I said some good can come of even arrogant rich bastards.

    I wasn't directing that to you.

    mrdobalina on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    nexuscrawler on
  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    You don't need to think that rich people get more out of the government in order to justify high taxes on them.

    MrMister on
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    mrdobalina on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month

    whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?

    nexuscrawler on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »

    The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?

    They did the work initially to earn it, the government is just taking less from them in the first place. That's not a handout.

    Through no work of their own, the government is relieving the recipient of a tax cut of some of their legally required tax burden. That's a handout.
    wwtMask wrote: »

    Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.

    It's a lopsided way of seeing it. It presumes a state of anarchy and disarray and uses that threat as justification of high taxation and expansive government. That argument can easily be extended to justify any number of horrible things.

    It's the reality of the world. History shows that what I'm saying is right, and we were damn close to a similar situation at least once in our history (hey there Great Depression). Anyone who doesn't think that using tax revenue for social safety net programs is a means to avoid that sort of social conflict is fooling themselves.
    wwtMask wrote: »

    I feel like you missed the part where I said some good can come of even arrogant rich bastards.

    I wasn't directing that to you.

    I know, but I felt like it needed to be reiterated.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    nexuscrawler on
  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    civil_disobedience on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    goes both ways man

    giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.

    nexuscrawler on
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    mrdobalina on
  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me.

    Anyone who doesn't care about social justice scares me.

    Or something.

    MrMister on
  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    goes both ways man

    giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.

    Ok then have a flat tax

    civil_disobedience on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    I assume this is directed at rich people.
    There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    I assume this is directed at rich people.
    There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.

    it is directed at anyone who promotes class warfare. A country divided against itself will fall apart.

    civil_disobedience on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    goes both ways man

    giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.

    Ok then have a flat tax

    which would either tax the poor into literal starvation or force taxes so low the government would fall apart

    nexuscrawler on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    No, you're wrong.
    Ok, that gets us nowhere.

    mrdobalina on
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Arch wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Financial success or failure is not directly due to the actions of the government.

    The ability to capitalize on that success or failure can be due to the protections the government provides.

    What's the entrepreneur class in Somalia or Afghanistan look like? Last I checked, Bill Gates doesn't have to bankroll his own private army to defend his wealth.
    Other than a handful of radical libertarians and/or anarchists, nobody is calling for the abolition of government. There are basic governmental functions, such as roads and other infrastructure, law enforcement, courts and the military that almost no one objects to.

    The area of contention, it seems, involve social services and welfare and the use of tax dollars for the benefit of the politically connected (by way of such things as farm subsidies and the like).

    The classical conservative view is that government exists to protect the rights of the citizenry. Anything beyond that is not a proper role of government and should not be paid for with tax dollars.

    but the counter argument is comparing the relative levels of tax dollars going into each program (e.g. infrastructure vs. medicaid. or military vs. welfare)

    We actually spend more on medicare/medicaide than we do on military defense.

    Knuckle Dragger on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.

    I assume this is directed at rich people.
    There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.

    it is directed at anyone who promotes class warfare. A country divided against itself will fall apart.
    This country was founded on the status quo, and by god I like it that way!

    Bama on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month

    whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
    Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    civil_disobedience on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month

    whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
    Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.

    then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.

    nexuscrawler on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.

    nexuscrawler on
  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month

    whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
    Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.

    then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.

    who else does, just curious, because if people not in lower income brackets are making out from wellfare that pisses me off, because it means people who really do not need it are stealing tax dollars.

    civil_disobedience on
  • civil_disobediencecivil_disobedience Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.

    that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.

    civil_disobedience on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    No, you're wrong.
    Ok, that gets us nowhere.

    No, seriously, you're objectively incorrect.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    Stealing isn't exactly the right analogy.

    mrdobalina on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    Taxes aren't theft, unless you think rent is also theft.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
    If you truly feel you receive inadequate service here, perhaps you should take your patronage elsewhere rather than try to divide this country against itself.

    Bama on
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    No, you're wrong.
    Ok, that gets us nowhere.

    No, seriously, you're objectively incorrect.

    This is going to go nowhere, because I think you're way off base and have done diddly-shit to prove otherwise.

    mrdobalina on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month

    whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
    Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.

    then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.

    who else does, just curious, because if people not in lower income brackets are making out from wellfare that pisses me off, because it means people who really do not need it are stealing tax dollars.

    I fail to see how a fiscally unnecessary irresponsible tax break is functionally any different than giving money away for free.

    nexuscrawler on
  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    You can't lose what you don't have. The Federal Government's support for our economic and banking infrastructure is great for everyone. I'd sure be unhappy if the American economy completely collapsed tomorrow and money had absolutely no meaning. I'd lose thousands of dollars.

    A billionaire would lose billions of dollars.

    Not hard to see who is losing more. Not that we wouldn't both be fucked, but one of us would have much farther to fall.

    Government is the perpetuation of current society. The more you have in a current society, the more value you have in the perpetuation of that society.

    PotatoNinja on
    Two goats enter, one car leaves
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.

    that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.

    I'm struggling to take you seriously at this point because you're displaying almost a parody of naive libertarian ideology. Oh, and you also don't seem to grasp taxation.

    mrdobalina: I've done more to prove my point than you have. A tax break is a gift from the government. A gift is a handout, ergo a tax break is a handout.

    wwtMask on
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  • The SpecialistThe Specialist Happy Face Happy PlaceRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?

    I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.

    And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.

    That interpretation says more about your position than mine.

    Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.

    The problem is that you're wrong.

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.

    that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.

    A democracy, just like any other form of government, needs money to function. Taxes are not a characteristic of unjust systems of government, they are a characteristic of systems of government.

    Edit: I usually tend to disagree with you Mrdobalina, but I'm glad nobody has managed to run you away from this forum. It feels a lot like an echo chamber at times.

    The Specialist on
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  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    This discussion should really be about underlying theories of justice, because different notions there are what drives this particular disagreement about particular tax brackets.

    MrMister on
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrdobalina wrote: »

    how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?

    Stealing isn't exactly the right analogy.

    I think that there's more of a Utilitarian argument that we would have less people living in poverty if the top 1% of wealth were to be redistributed.

    And I, frankly, don't care if they "worked for it", the unemployed construction worker works just as hard.

    The Crowing One on
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  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    MrMister wrote: »
    This discussion should really be about underlying theories of justice, because different notions there are what drives this particular disagreement about particular tax brackets.

    Progressive taxation is a combination of economic logic, risk aversion, tax value and economic justice. I don't think you can boil the idea of progressive taxation into "well, this is solely about X" when the concept is based on a mishmash of all sorts of ideologies and economic concepts.

    Underlying theories of justice is certainly part of it, just not the only part.

    PotatoNinja on
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