- Before old Naxx, we weren't used to playing WoW like it's Ninja Gaiden. You usually had about 5-10 seconds to react to things, and PvP was practically nonexistent. Naxx is the first time I saw a void zone, for example (they still ticked for 4k back then too..)
o_O
You're joking right? Classic pvp was about as fast paced as Wrath. Bursty bursting goodness and exploding mages. I tried some healing in Wrath and it was something of a shock because I was so used to TBC and it'd been so long since the old days.
I'm going to disagree with that. There was no resilience, and people in the best PVE gear dominated. Now PvE and PvP gear can lead to domination. PVP was A LOT faster paced. I used to be able to 2 GCD mages.
I played Horde on Cho'gall for a few months, and I tell you what
The alliance left on Cho'gall are some hardcore glass eating mofos
They don't have duels; they have epic LotR-style slaughters
There was (and I think still is) a weird hardcore "Bring it on!" style guild / movement on Cho'gall. I imagine playing Alliance on that server requires a sort of bizarre and vicious PvP mindset, I could certainly see how it would create, attract, and encourage a very "hardmode" style of player.
I'm going to disagree with that. There was no resilience, and people in the best PVE gear dominated. Now PvE and PvP gear can lead to domination. PVP was A LOT faster paced. I used to be able to 2 GCD mages.
PvP at 60 started getting really dumb right around AQ40. Any DPS class decked out in full AQ40 gear could basically explode a target. Fury warriors were one-shotting mages with heroic strike, and if a rogue landed a cheap shot on you that was it, fight was over.
By the time you got Warlord gear (something I did!) you could basically ruin every class, whether or not you were supposed to, unless you came up against someone in equal gear (T2 level).
By the time you got Warlord gear (something I did!) you could basically ruin every class, whether or not you were supposed to, unless you came up against someone in equal gear (T2 level).
I miss those days. Somewhat.
AQ made things really retarded in the beginning.
I didn't mean PvP wasn't bursty, I meant that it was a dumb waste of time and most hardcore PvE players never bothered with it, since there was no reward or incentive for it after it got boring (which took about half an hour a month for me)
I didn't mean PvP wasn't bursty, I meant that it was a dumb waste of time and most hardcore PvE players never bothered with it, since there was no reward or incentive for it after it got boring (which took about half an hour a month for me)
Are you kidding? People did it all the time. Mostly for fun.
Cause when you are a hardcore raider with awesome gear, there wasn't much else to do in WoW at the time once your raids were done/scheduled for the week.
So you'd hit up a BG and have a bunch of laughs farming people at the GY in WSG.
In my guild it took like 30 hours of raiding a week to clear the instance we were working on and the one before it, and then there was a good 5-10 more hours of farming for consumables and repair money, so I never had a lot of spare time for more WoW.
Plus I've always hated BGs unless it's one organized team vs another organized team
There was one guy who went nuts and somehow managed to get Grand Marshall while raiding Naxx, so the hours were there somewhere I suppose
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
In my guild it took like 30 hours of raiding a week to clear the instance we were working on and the one before it, and then there was a good 5-10 more hours of farming for consumables and repair money, so I never had a lot of spare time for more WoW.
Plus I've always hated BGs unless it's one organized team vs another organized team
There was one guy who went nuts and somehow managed to get Grand Marshall while raiding Naxx, so the hours were there somewhere I suppose
Ya, the only real pvp outside of my twink warrior that I saw in those days was when I was out in Sithilus with friends grinding Cenarion rep at the twilight cult bases and killing horde trying to do the same thing. Prot pallies can't kill shit.
And my hunter never pvp'd when I started cus I suck at hunters. :P
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2009
We seem to be having trouble on Marrowgar because our tanks keep dying.
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BeastehTHAT WOULD NOTKILL DRACULARegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
yeah Munkus I went on an alt 10 man ICC run on my mage earlier with 2 fairly decent geared (mostly 245, some 226) tanks and 2 healers
The tanks would just randomly get gibbed for enormous amounts of instant damage, even using all cooldowns, being prehealed and eventually getting in a 3rd healer :x
edit and yes they were standing on top of each other to soak the saber lash
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2009
And of course, the 2nd boss basically gets one shotted.
What is with blizzard and designing the first boss to be so much harder than the 2nd?
Munkus Beaver on
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When we were doing it, it looked like periodically he'll up his lash speed from every 2s to every 1 to 1.5s for like 5 of them, and then settle down. It might have been parry hasting but I'm not so sure. And Blizz likes the first boss to be tough as a gating mechanic.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2009
I know I saw one recount parse where he lashed 3 times in 3 seconds.
Munkus Beaver on
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And of course, the 2nd boss basically gets one shotted.
What is with blizzard and designing the first boss to be so much harder than the 2nd?
That's odd, I seem to see a lot more complaints about the second boss than the first.
Also I take back what I said the other day about Saurfang being an undertuned joke of a fight. Apparently we just did something right for once. Unlike the run I'm in right now, where we've been wiping on him for like over an hour now. It doesn't help that some of our DPS is alts doing like 3.5k and not flasked. And these are GEARED alts, just... lazy people? People who don't know how to DPS on their alts? I don't know but I'm REALLY TIRED.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2009
Saurfang is pretty hard. Most strats I see explain what to do when you have a hunter.
We did not have a hunter.
It was quite annoying and difficult.
Seriously, the blood beast mechanic is total bullshit.
Munkus Beaver on
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Saurfang is pretty hard. Most strats I see explain what to do when you have a hunter.
We did not have a hunter.
It was quite annoying and difficult.
Seriously, the blood beast mechanic is total bullshit.
Yeah, If you run a melee heavy 10 man, that fight is going to suck HARD. The beasts can be stunned though, so if you can lock them up while you whack on them it can help too.
And of course, the 2nd boss basically gets one shotted.
What is with blizzard and designing the first boss to be so much harder than the 2nd?
That's odd, I seem to see a lot more complaints about the second boss than the first.
Also I take back what I said the other day about Saurfang being an undertuned joke of a fight. Apparently we just did something right for once. Unlike the run I'm in right now, where we've been wiping on him for like over an hour now. It doesn't help that some of our DPS is alts doing like 3.5k and not flasked. And these are GEARED alts, just... lazy people? People who don't know how to DPS on their alts? I don't know but I'm REALLY TIRED.
The bad dpsers were ranged doing lots of target switching for blood beasts. I know when our main shadow priest was put behind Saurfang (because we had so many ranged there wasn't anywhere else to put them) and just attacked the boss, his dps went up by over 1500. Maybe our ranged dps alts are bad at minimizing the dps loss of target switching, but we definitely had too many people standing at range (18!) to fit correctly on the platform and that was causing havoc. Swapping out two or three of our five hunters for some DKs or rogues would have made that a lot easier.
That isnt' to say that people not flasking or eating food or any of the other stuff that was going on behind me was helping any.
I really like the fight as melee, though. It's a perfect melee benchmark fight (unless you're a ret paladin, lol consecrate/DS and Blood Beasts). There's no movement, there's no target switching, there's no interrupting, the encounter heavily encourages melee to stick to single-target dps and ignore the adds, there's no dps buffs or nerfs from the encounter itself, and it lasts long enough for multiple cooldown cycles (for now).
The fight I don't like is Deathwhisper. At least, I don't like being put on the same side of the adds as our alt warrior tank.
SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Yeah, you definitely don't want to tank the Blood Beasts.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Saurfang is pretty hard. Most strats I see explain what to do when you have a hunter.
We did not have a hunter.
It was quite annoying and difficult.
Seriously, the blood beast mechanic is total bullshit.
Your tanks should have no issue picking the beasts up and off tanking them. They are not immune to taunts, or stuns.
If you tank the blood beasts, he gains a shitton of blood power. Plus there is the whole thing where he'll mark the current tank about 5 seconds after he summons the blood beasts.
So not only is it a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts, it's a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts.
EDIT: I will note we got him down to about 20%-30% one time. He seemed to be gaining blood power quicker as the fight went on. I don't know if he was using his abilities more often or if people were just getting more tired and making mistakes.
Munkus Beaver on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
He gains exponentially more and more energy throughout the fight, I think it's got something to do with the Deathbringer's Mark being on more people.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2009
I honestly do not know if our current setup is up to the task of killing him in time. We would need some way to slow them down without providing a significant DPS loss and do so without the use of AoEs.
Does the primary strike of Heart Strike count as a cleave? I bet it does. Motherfucking design choices.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Got an Elemental Shammy? just sorta tootin' my own horn here but we're pretty damn useful for that fight (so are boomkin). Right before the beasts are about to spawn, have the tank stop anything that does AoE threat and have the Shaman drop a fire totem at Saurfang's feet. Magma Totem is p good for this. When the beasts spawn, book it to the airship while spamming the fuck out of Fire Nova to get aggro on the little bastards and drop an Earthbind totem as soon as they're out of the melee camp, so to speak. Kill beasts, if they get too close, Thunderstorm them away from you. One shaman should be enough to take out both beasts, though any other ranged dps can help.
Also, when Saurfang is down at the whole 15% mark, something I like to call the "people start dying" event begins. This is when all your marked people will start taking sufficient damage to strain your healers significantly. What you want to do here is pop Lust (for the benefit of both the healers and DPS) and have your tanks pop all their avoidance cooldowns. The less damage your tanks take, the less damage the Marked people take. Kill him before he kills one of your raid members, and walk away with an achievement.
We had Frost Traps down inbetween the steps and the edges of the platform. Ranged would take care of kiting the beasts through the traps, slowing the stray ones and killing them before they reached anyone.
Does the primary strike of Heart Strike count as a cleave? I bet it does. Motherfucking design choices.
As for Heart Strike, it doesn't cleave the Blood Beasts. It's basically like how you can't cleave Snobolds if you're targeting Gormok, but the other way around works.
(I know this because I was DPS'ing as Blood on my DK during that fight, and I checked Recount for Damage Done.)
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
yeah Munkus I went on an alt 10 man ICC run on my mage earlier with 2 fairly decent geared (mostly 245, some 226) tanks and 2 healers
The tanks would just randomly get gibbed for enormous amounts of instant damage, even using all cooldowns, being prehealed and eventually getting in a 3rd healer :x
edit and yes they were standing on top of each other to soak the saber lash
Yeah, we spent last night wiping on him, he really is a bastard. Each fight we'd do fine for a while then one of the tanks would get auto-gibbed and that'd be it. We read up on the strats and I thought we'd been following them to a tee, so I have no idea what we could be doing differently to be more successful. It didn't seem to be a healing issue; as you said, the tanks would go from topped off to dead in a split second.
On that note, didn't GC say that they were abandoning the whole "spiky damage, gib your tanks in a second, have fun healers!" methodology of designing raid bosses? Or did I just imagine that?
The bad dpsers were ranged doing lots of target switching for blood beasts. I know when our main shadow priest was put behind Saurfang (because we had so many ranged there wasn't anywhere else to put them) and just attacked the boss, his dps went up by over 1500. Maybe our ranged dps alts are bad at minimizing the dps loss of target switching, but we definitely had too many people standing at range (18!) to fit correctly on the platform and that was causing havoc. Swapping out two or three of our five hunters for some DKs or rogues would have made that a lot easier.
That isnt' to say that people not flasking or eating food or any of the other stuff that was going on behind me was helping any.
It wasn't only ranged, for instance, Ashi was doing like 3.5k and her paladin is almost as geared as mine. Not flasking doesn't make a several thousand difference in DPS. But having way too much ranged was definitely a problem, yeah, for multiple reasons.
If you tank the blood beasts, he gains a shitton of blood power. Plus there is the whole thing where he'll mark the current tank about 5 seconds after he summons the blood beasts.
So not only is it a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts, it's a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts.
EDIT: I will note we got him down to about 20%-30% one time. He seemed to be gaining blood power quicker as the fight went on. I don't know if he was using his abilities more often or if people were just getting more tired and making mistakes.
Whenever someone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion takes damage from a chained attack, he gains BP. Which basically means that unless you have someone who can shield the fuck out of them, once the first Mark goes out, he gains BP with every melee swing.
Posts
o_O
You're joking right? Classic pvp was about as fast paced as Wrath. Bursty bursting goodness and exploding mages. I tried some healing in Wrath and it was something of a shock because I was so used to TBC and it'd been so long since the old days.
There was (and I think still is) a weird hardcore "Bring it on!" style guild / movement on Cho'gall. I imagine playing Alliance on that server requires a sort of bizarre and vicious PvP mindset, I could certainly see how it would create, attract, and encourage a very "hardmode" style of player.
PvP at 60 started getting really dumb right around AQ40. Any DPS class decked out in full AQ40 gear could basically explode a target. Fury warriors were one-shotting mages with heroic strike, and if a rogue landed a cheap shot on you that was it, fight was over.
I miss those days. Somewhat.
AQ made things really retarded in the beginning.
However, disc priests were just as unkillable then as they are now.
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Are you kidding? People did it all the time. Mostly for fun.
Cause when you are a hardcore raider with awesome gear, there wasn't much else to do in WoW at the time once your raids were done/scheduled for the week.
So you'd hit up a BG and have a bunch of laughs farming people at the GY in WSG.
In my guild it took like 30 hours of raiding a week to clear the instance we were working on and the one before it, and then there was a good 5-10 more hours of farming for consumables and repair money, so I never had a lot of spare time for more WoW.
Plus I've always hated BGs unless it's one organized team vs another organized team
There was one guy who went nuts and somehow managed to get Grand Marshall while raiding Naxx, so the hours were there somewhere I suppose
Ya, the only real pvp outside of my twink warrior that I saw in those days was when I was out in Sithilus with friends grinding Cenarion rep at the twilight cult bases and killing horde trying to do the same thing. Prot pallies can't kill shit.
And my hunter never pvp'd when I started cus I suck at hunters. :P
The tanks would just randomly get gibbed for enormous amounts of instant damage, even using all cooldowns, being prehealed and eventually getting in a 3rd healer :x
edit and yes they were standing on top of each other to soak the saber lash
What is with blizzard and designing the first boss to be so much harder than the 2nd?
That's odd, I seem to see a lot more complaints about the second boss than the first.
Also I take back what I said the other day about Saurfang being an undertuned joke of a fight. Apparently we just did something right for once. Unlike the run I'm in right now, where we've been wiping on him for like over an hour now. It doesn't help that some of our DPS is alts doing like 3.5k and not flasked. And these are GEARED alts, just... lazy people? People who don't know how to DPS on their alts? I don't know but I'm REALLY TIRED.
We did not have a hunter.
It was quite annoying and difficult.
Seriously, the blood beast mechanic is total bullshit.
Yeah, If you run a melee heavy 10 man, that fight is going to suck HARD. The beasts can be stunned though, so if you can lock them up while you whack on them it can help too.
I am a freaking nerd.
The bad dpsers were ranged doing lots of target switching for blood beasts. I know when our main shadow priest was put behind Saurfang (because we had so many ranged there wasn't anywhere else to put them) and just attacked the boss, his dps went up by over 1500. Maybe our ranged dps alts are bad at minimizing the dps loss of target switching, but we definitely had too many people standing at range (18!) to fit correctly on the platform and that was causing havoc. Swapping out two or three of our five hunters for some DKs or rogues would have made that a lot easier.
That isnt' to say that people not flasking or eating food or any of the other stuff that was going on behind me was helping any.
I really like the fight as melee, though. It's a perfect melee benchmark fight (unless you're a ret paladin, lol consecrate/DS and Blood Beasts). There's no movement, there's no target switching, there's no interrupting, the encounter heavily encourages melee to stick to single-target dps and ignore the adds, there's no dps buffs or nerfs from the encounter itself, and it lasts long enough for multiple cooldown cycles (for now).
The fight I don't like is Deathwhisper. At least, I don't like being put on the same side of the adds as our alt warrior tank.
Your tanks should have no issue picking the beasts up and off tanking them. They are not immune to taunts, or stuns.
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If you tank the blood beasts, he gains a shitton of blood power. Plus there is the whole thing where he'll mark the current tank about 5 seconds after he summons the blood beasts.
So not only is it a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts, it's a bad idea to offtank the bloodbeasts.
EDIT: I will note we got him down to about 20%-30% one time. He seemed to be gaining blood power quicker as the fight went on. I don't know if he was using his abilities more often or if people were just getting more tired and making mistakes.
Does the primary strike of Heart Strike count as a cleave? I bet it does. Motherfucking design choices.
Also, when Saurfang is down at the whole 15% mark, something I like to call the "people start dying" event begins. This is when all your marked people will start taking sufficient damage to strain your healers significantly. What you want to do here is pop Lust (for the benefit of both the healers and DPS) and have your tanks pop all their avoidance cooldowns. The less damage your tanks take, the less damage the Marked people take. Kill him before he kills one of your raid members, and walk away with an achievement.
As for Heart Strike, it doesn't cleave the Blood Beasts. It's basically like how you can't cleave Snobolds if you're targeting Gormok, but the other way around works.
(I know this because I was DPS'ing as Blood on my DK during that fight, and I checked Recount for Damage Done.)
On that note, didn't GC say that they were abandoning the whole "spiky damage, gib your tanks in a second, have fun healers!" methodology of designing raid bosses? Or did I just imagine that?
It wasn't only ranged, for instance, Ashi was doing like 3.5k and her paladin is almost as geared as mine. Not flasking doesn't make a several thousand difference in DPS. But having way too much ranged was definitely a problem, yeah, for multiple reasons.
Whenever someone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion takes damage from a chained attack, he gains BP. Which basically means that unless you have someone who can shield the fuck out of them, once the first Mark goes out, he gains BP with every melee swing.