Why would you want 90% ArP? That's a whole lot of wasted ArP when raiding.
That makes no sense... how would it be wasted in raiding?
Unless you're referring to Sunder Armor and/or FF, in which case I would like to point out that those are not considered part of your ArPen value.
Sunder Armor is applied, then ArPen gets factored in. Note, of course, that this does not mean the boss has no armor or some such, as the calculation for ArPen only factors against a portion of the bosses armor.
I have way too much defense. In Naxx and Ulduar, I was virtually married to my def trinket to keep me above the cap. Now I'm at least 30 points above the cap and I can't shed the stuff fast enough.
I'm so tempted to queue for a heroic, barechested and wearing a sombrero. And it'll still keep me just above the heroic cap limit. I'm just worried whether people will think it's hilarious, or think I'm just an idiot.
In a violet hold group I was in the healer was bitching about not having enough to do, so the tank took off their pants, breastplate and helm. Meanwhile the DK DPS(who was in the same guild as the tank and healer) was wailing away with Sulfuras while wearing his Lumberjack outfit. After the second boss the DK switched to their main stuff but it was fun being ToP DPS for the first part of the instance.
Sounds like the tank should have just tanked in full dps gear, keeping enough pieces to be at 535 defense.
Another thing to try is doing it in a mix of PvP and PvE dps gear. Enough resilience to be crit capped, and an armor pen trinket for 100% armor pen. The shield slams and shockwaves would be insane.
I generally prefer to tank heroics in mostly tanking gear, the fantastic mitigation makes up for the lower damage so the healer can DPS or heal aggro-happy bladestorming warriors instead of trying to keep a 1000 resilience 25% avoidance tank up.
However, trinkets are a good spot to change that up. I use the Needle Encrusted Scorpion while tanking heroics on my warrior, the procrate with a fast weapon while spamming cleaves is very high and it gives a considerable increase to DPS.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Yeah the ar cap is 100% self armor pen, which mean everything but the debuffs. Battle stance and talents factor into the self armor pen. So a warrior in battle needs less, and if you use a mace then much less.
I somehow never got around to finishing hor on my warrior tank. Found it actually very easy, and the group praised my tanking right before I got my achievement for first complete run. Felt nice. 7 more emblems till I get my trinket and hit over 36k hp base
I really want to find a way to fit safeguard into a raiding spec so I feel slightly less useless when offtanking.
I'll save you some time; it's worthless.
Trying to reduce raid damage with it is a waste of time, and using it on your MT as some kind of cooldown is just a huge no-no because you will cause threat issues.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Lol forced intervening.
I remember back in TBC when doing the prince in kara, I was DPSing but intercept was on CD and I wanted to get back in quick after that large aoe he does. I decided to use intervene. I died instantly. Kinda forgot I take the next hit on the target, and I obviously only had the tank to target :O
I switched from Arms to Fury today and lost almost 1,000 target dummy dps.
I know that doesn't mean very much, but I was still a bit shocked. Didn't have the chance to do anything with it other than a five minute dummy test yet.
With my warrior's setup right now, I avg around 5000dps, though it can go up and down easily since fury is all about lucky crits and slam proccing every other turn. Cleave>HS.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
So my Arms Warrior recently hit 80. Do you dudes use Heroic Strike while DPSing? I don't even have it on my bars since I usually have better things to do, or don't have the rage for it anyway.
From what I understand, more specifically, you only really do it if you have more rage than you know what to do with, for example in a fight with a ton of AoE damage flying around. Generally if rend is up, mortal stike is on the cooldown, and overpower or execute are not available, you slam. If you have a ton of rage, you can slip it in there, since it's an on-next-melee button, so you don't need to spend a global cooldown on it.
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From what I understand, more specifically, you only really do it if you have more rage than you know what to do with, for example in a fight with a ton of AoE damage flying around. Generally if rend is up, mortal stike is on the cooldown, and overpower or execute are not available, you slam. If you have a ton of rage, you can slip it in there, since it's an on-next-melee button, so you don't need to spend a global cooldown on it.
I remember triggering Heroic Strike just before using one of my instant attacks. But I haven't played arms since before Wrath.
I remember back in TBC when doing the prince in kara, I was DPSing but intercept was on CD and I wanted to get back in quick after that large aoe he does. I decided to use intervene. I died instantly. Kinda forgot I take the next hit on the target, and I obviously only had the tank to target :O
Hey, I'll still intervene the tank occasionally in 5-mans and stuff. It's like a combination Sprint + Blood Rage.
I ended up getting the Head of Onyxia last night. Pretty big upgrade (tank trinket) to something like The Black Heart?
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
They are opposing trinkets. One is all avoidance (the ony one) and one is basically lasting power (stam and occasional armor). The ony one is good if you are still having trouble hitting the def cap. But, what is your other trinket? I personally use both till I get the Frost Emblem Trinket and go max ass Stam. But I have the Ick Finger and ony trinket for a king of avoidance set.
With my Ony trinket though I am up to almost 570 def. I use a DPS trinket for 5 mans and a slow weapon for max dps tanking.
They are opposing trinkets. One is all avoidance (the ony one) and one is basically lasting power (stam and occasional armor). The ony one is good if you are still having trouble hitting the def cap. But, what is your other trinket? I personally use both till I get the Frost Emblem Trinket and go max ass Stam. But I have the Ick Finger and ony trinket for a king of avoidance set.
With my Ony trinket though I am up to almost 570 def. I use a DPS trinket for 5 mans and a slow weapon for max dps tanking.
Other is the Brewfest trinket, for the STA. I'm always torn on which Trinkets to be putting on.
Druid, for example - I believe I'm using The Black Heart and Ick Finger... but only until recently. Usually I used another STA trinket instead of Ick.
Paladin was using Ony trinket until I was told I shouldn't in the Paladin thread... so now went back to that Essence STA trinket from Heroic AN, and Black Heart I think.
Ah well. Yeah my DEF is definetly over cap on Warrior, so it's probably not a huge deal
I'm currently Arms spec. I'm not particularly interested in changing, since my Warrior isn't my main DPS character and he's Arms for backstory/character reasons. So I'm not looking at doing the most DPS possible per se, just as much as I can squeeze out of Arms.
I've got some scabby pieces in there and I know I'm not gemmed nor enchanted properly yet, since I've been piecing this together while I tank. Would that really account for the drastic difference I see between myself and other Arms Warriors in my guild? I can sustain about 2.2.-2.3k on a target dummy. I managed 2.5 in H UP earlier, but last night on Malygos I only got to about 1.8k.
My priority list is Rend > MS > Execute > Overpower > Slam, with Sweeping Strikes on trash and trinket+Bladestorm on cooldown, after Rend is up. I try inserting Cleave and Heroic Strike but it always leaves me rage starved and I tend to forget it. Would that be something that's holding me back?
*EDIT* just noticed I've got no Hodir enchant on my shoulders. Doy.
*EDIT DEUX* Oh lord my Glyphs are still Fury. This is ridiculous.
I'll leave it to experience raiding warriors to answer your question thoroughly, but gems and enchants make up way more of a difference than you seem to think. Also, targeting dummies are even worse for coming up with a raid number than other classes', with how the damage->rage mechanic works. This doesn't mean they're worthless, but the only really accurate comparisons involving dummies is with other trials also on a target dummy. Rawr is a pretty nifty program for estimating your dps with whatever raid buffs and consumables you want.
Concussion Blow : Damage is decreased by 50%, but threat generated by this ability remains still.
Boo!
Devastate: Damage is increased to 120% (Up from 100%)
Yay!
Warbringer: This talent no longer allows Charge and Intercept to break roots or snares. Intervene remains unaffected.
Aww.
Shield Slam: Damage increment from block value decreased, and starts to decrease from lower block value. If your gear is almost High-end, players won’t really recognize the change. In addition, threat generated by Shield Slam is increased by 30%
...*shrug*
The Wolfman on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Malygos is a VERY hard fight to dps as arms, especially if you arent good at it. One of my first raids as DPS was maly, and I did horrible the first few runs (around 1.5ish) then picked it up as I learned to drop my better abilities at the right times. Also stuff like using heroic throw when flying in the air helps. Not to mention, actually getting the buff from the balls n shit, if the raid can even place it well enough for melee.
with a 219 weapon I would say 2.5k heroic dps is pretty good. Arms just isnt as good as Fury IMO, and a lot of your best dps is going to come from correct usage of bladestorm. I glyphed it and Its helped me maintain 3k+ when I get all the good raid buffs with my mediocre gear.
Also, you might want to look into the incite spec. I havent been able to get really good at it as its hard to micromanage rage correctly, but using the glyph of HS and taking incite in prot can lead to some sweet ass dps gains if you can get some really high crit. HS crits get your 20% crit damage bonus, and the added chance to crit from incite means more crits, meaning more deep wounds, meaning more dps. The glyph makes it not rape your rage. Still, its very rage intensive, so it also kind of requires a really good weapon so your rage generation from damage is good.
Thanks for the advice. I'll take a look at Rawr now, and I've decided to glyph Bladestorm instead of Rending, so I'm going MS, Execution, BS.
I've looked at Incite before, but would I be losing too much by not getting Improved Execute?
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
I think glyph of rending is considered fairly mandatory for arms dps. It means you only have to apply rend one out of every fourteen GCDs instead of once every ten. That doesn't sound like much at first glance, but since arms is GCD limited it means you get more abilities in and thus more damage.
I can't see your armory during maintenance, but your next task should be to drop all your expertise, go to an incite spec with 1/2 Weapon Mastery, and change your priority so Overpower comes before Execute.
It sounds counter-intuitive to leave yourself open to being dodged, but give it a shot.
Edit: Okay now I see. First of all, don't spec Deflection or Iron Will in a PvE build; get Improved Heroic Strike and Tactical Mastery ASAP.
Execution and Bladestorm are (sort of) interchangeable glyphs, and Rending is non-negotiable. Unless you know a the BS glyph is going to buy you an extra cooldown over the length of a fight, it's useless, so change that one for Rending.
Devastate: Damage is increased to 120% (Up from 100%)
Yay!
Just FYI, that's the weapon portion, not the entire attack. Devastate does weapon damage plus a modifier for the number of sunders on the target. The weapon damage portion is being increased, so its more of a 11-15% increase in damage to Devastate.
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Question for someone better versed in the other tank classes than I am:
What is the difference between warriors and other tanks that makes it so hard to increase our PvE damage without becoming a problem in PvP? Frankly, in my experience pally tanks are monsters in 1v1, but maybe it's different for other classes and/or in arenas.
Question for someone better versed in the other tank classes than I am:
What is the difference between warriors and other tanks that makes it so hard to increase our PvE damage without becoming a problem in PvP? Frankly, in my experience pally tanks are monsters in 1v1, but maybe it's different for other classes and/or in arenas.
It supposedly is the burst damage on Shield Slam. On BGs (not on arenas), they can pull some crazy numbers when certain items proc together. It doesn't help that they usually have high HPs. Unlike other tanks, I'll say they have high mobility and with warbringer they can pester ranged classes with more ease.
Probably because death knights do their dps through dots, pallies do it through lots of reflective damage and somewhat over time(hammer?), and druids do it through on-next hit abilities and auto-attack.
Question for someone better versed in the other tank classes than I am:
What is the difference between warriors and other tanks that makes it so hard to increase our PvE damage without becoming a problem in PvP? Frankly, in my experience pally tanks are monsters in 1v1, but maybe it's different for other classes and/or in arenas.
Because prot warrior burst is heavily loaded into a single ability (Shield Slam) combined with unparalleled lockdown abilities (multiple stuns, interrupts, silences, mobility, reflect, etc.). Taking some of the high end damage scaling out of Shield Slam should hopefully allow them to give warrior tanks slightly more sustained DPS. That said, warriors aren't in a particularly bad spot now as far as single target DPS goes. They're actually pretty close to the other tanks. Of course, optimizing prot warrior DPS takes more effort than with some of the other tanks.
Posts
Str/Crit is for activating metas or filling slots when ArP gemming would put you over 100%.
That makes no sense... how would it be wasted in raiding?
Unless you're referring to Sunder Armor and/or FF, in which case I would like to point out that those are not considered part of your ArPen value.
Sunder Armor is applied, then ArPen gets factored in. Note, of course, that this does not mean the boss has no armor or some such, as the calculation for ArPen only factors against a portion of the bosses armor.
Soft cap refers to 100% with a trinket proc up, but none of those trinkets are recommended if you have any ability to get something different.
Obviously for Warriors and DKs this number is lower due to talents and stances
I generally prefer to tank heroics in mostly tanking gear, the fantastic mitigation makes up for the lower damage so the healer can DPS or heal aggro-happy bladestorming warriors instead of trying to keep a 1000 resilience 25% avoidance tank up.
However, trinkets are a good spot to change that up. I use the Needle Encrusted Scorpion while tanking heroics on my warrior, the procrate with a fast weapon while spamming cleaves is very high and it gives a considerable increase to DPS.
I somehow never got around to finishing hor on my warrior tank. Found it actually very easy, and the group praised my tanking right before I got my achievement for first complete run. Felt nice. 7 more emblems till I get my trinket and hit over 36k hp base
Trying to reduce raid damage with it is a waste of time, and using it on your MT as some kind of cooldown is just a huge no-no because you will cause threat issues.
I remember back in TBC when doing the prince in kara, I was DPSing but intercept was on CD and I wanted to get back in quick after that large aoe he does. I decided to use intervene. I died instantly. Kinda forgot I take the next hit on the target, and I obviously only had the tank to target :O
I know that doesn't mean very much, but I was still a bit shocked. Didn't have the chance to do anything with it other than a five minute dummy test yet.
Ayliana Moonwhisper Ecksus Cerazal
From what I understand, more specifically, you only really do it if you have more rage than you know what to do with, for example in a fight with a ton of AoE damage flying around. Generally if rend is up, mortal stike is on the cooldown, and overpower or execute are not available, you slam. If you have a ton of rage, you can slip it in there, since it's an on-next-melee button, so you don't need to spend a global cooldown on it.
I remember triggering Heroic Strike just before using one of my instant attacks. But I haven't played arms since before Wrath.
Hey, I'll still intervene the tank occasionally in 5-mans and stuff. It's like a combination Sprint + Blood Rage.
With my Ony trinket though I am up to almost 570 def. I use a DPS trinket for 5 mans and a slow weapon for max dps tanking.
Other is the Brewfest trinket, for the STA. I'm always torn on which Trinkets to be putting on.
Druid, for example - I believe I'm using The Black Heart and Ick Finger... but only until recently. Usually I used another STA trinket instead of Ick.
Paladin was using Ony trinket until I was told I shouldn't in the Paladin thread... so now went back to that Essence STA trinket from Heroic AN, and Black Heart I think.
Ah well. Yeah my DEF is definetly over cap on Warrior, so it's probably not a huge deal
I'm currently Arms spec. I'm not particularly interested in changing, since my Warrior isn't my main DPS character and he's Arms for backstory/character reasons. So I'm not looking at doing the most DPS possible per se, just as much as I can squeeze out of Arms.
That being said, why is my DPS so low? This should show my DPS spec.
I've got some scabby pieces in there and I know I'm not gemmed nor enchanted properly yet, since I've been piecing this together while I tank. Would that really account for the drastic difference I see between myself and other Arms Warriors in my guild? I can sustain about 2.2.-2.3k on a target dummy. I managed 2.5 in H UP earlier, but last night on Malygos I only got to about 1.8k.
My priority list is Rend > MS > Execute > Overpower > Slam, with Sweeping Strikes on trash and trinket+Bladestorm on cooldown, after Rend is up. I try inserting Cleave and Heroic Strike but it always leaves me rage starved and I tend to forget it. Would that be something that's holding me back?
*EDIT* just noticed I've got no Hodir enchant on my shoulders. Doy.
*EDIT DEUX* Oh lord my Glyphs are still Fury. This is ridiculous.
Boo!
Yay!
Aww.
...*shrug*
with a 219 weapon I would say 2.5k heroic dps is pretty good. Arms just isnt as good as Fury IMO, and a lot of your best dps is going to come from correct usage of bladestorm. I glyphed it and Its helped me maintain 3k+ when I get all the good raid buffs with my mediocre gear.
Also, you might want to look into the incite spec. I havent been able to get really good at it as its hard to micromanage rage correctly, but using the glyph of HS and taking incite in prot can lead to some sweet ass dps gains if you can get some really high crit. HS crits get your 20% crit damage bonus, and the added chance to crit from incite means more crits, meaning more deep wounds, meaning more dps. The glyph makes it not rape your rage. Still, its very rage intensive, so it also kind of requires a really good weapon so your rage generation from damage is good.
I've looked at Incite before, but would I be losing too much by not getting Improved Execute?
Thanks
It sounds counter-intuitive to leave yourself open to being dodged, but give it a shot.
Edit: Okay now I see. First of all, don't spec Deflection or Iron Will in a PvE build; get Improved Heroic Strike and Tactical Mastery ASAP.
Execution and Bladestorm are (sort of) interchangeable glyphs, and Rending is non-negotiable. Unless you know a the BS glyph is going to buy you an extra cooldown over the length of a fight, it's useless, so change that one for Rending.
Just FYI, that's the weapon portion, not the entire attack. Devastate does weapon damage plus a modifier for the number of sunders on the target. The weapon damage portion is being increased, so its more of a 11-15% increase in damage to Devastate.
What is the difference between warriors and other tanks that makes it so hard to increase our PvE damage without becoming a problem in PvP? Frankly, in my experience pally tanks are monsters in 1v1, but maybe it's different for other classes and/or in arenas.
It supposedly is the burst damage on Shield Slam. On BGs (not on arenas), they can pull some crazy numbers when certain items proc together. It doesn't help that they usually have high HPs. Unlike other tanks, I'll say they have high mobility and with warbringer they can pester ranged classes with more ease.
I can definitely see the use in more Overpower procs, but wouldn't most of the procs come when it's on cooldown on account of Taste for Blood?
Definitely fixing my spec now - I'd intended to grab Imp HS again now that I've started using it.
*EDIT* Just saw Unrelenting Assault in the Incite spec. That would probably help.
I'm pretty sure Unrelenting Assault is a talent Arms warriors should always have anyway.
I should probably stick to tanking, but hey.