Right for the wrong reasons. Grats. Maybe you can bet the Cubs will beat the Yankees in the World Series and then out of nowhere 95% of the Yankee team will be hit by bolts of lightning.
Now if you had guessed that Wandering Plague would be going away, you'd deserve some props.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
Right for the wrong reasons? I said they're getting rid of the boring talents. I was correct.
Because Desolation would still be there if they went through with 51-point trees instead of dropping the talent overhaul bombshell, which no one saw coming.
And since there will still inevitably be boring talents, that kind of defeats your statement.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
My bad for thinking you'd for once go "laffo ^_^" as opposed to continuing to make arguments.
So what passive bonuses did you have in mind to make up for this HUGE loss in damage? I mean, in many AoE situations, Wandering Plague alone accounts for 15-20% of my overall damage, which is also being buffed by Impurity, and being further buffed by Desolation and being even further buffed by Rage of Rivendare. Take all that away, and basically you have a glorified version of Consecrate, rather than a dumbed down version of Seed of Corruption.
I just don't see how any kind of passive bonus you can implement can make up for that loss.
We could add a passive bonus that says "You do +50% melee weapon damage and +25% Frost and Shadow damage." Why make you buy essentially that same bonus in 12 separate talents when you are almost certainly going to do it anyway (unless you're a very misinformed player)? The passive bonuses don't carry a lot of risk. Other talent specs can't go fishing for them and we don't have to worry that you skipped over them.
So what passive bonuses did you have in mind to make up for this HUGE loss in damage? I mean, in many AoE situations, Wandering Plague alone accounts for 15-20% of my overall damage, which is also being buffed by Impurity, and being further buffed by Desolation and being even further buffed by Rage of Rivendare. Take all that away, and basically you have a glorified version of Consecrate, rather than a dumbed down version of Seed of Corruption.
I just don't see how any kind of passive bonus you can implement can make up for that loss.
We could add a passive bonus that says "You do +50% melee weapon damage and +25% Frost and Shadow damage." Why make you buy essentially that same bonus in 12 separate talents when you are almost certainly going to do it anyway (unless you're a very misinformed player)? The passive bonuses don't carry a lot of risk. Other talent specs can't go fishing for them and we don't have to worry that you skipped over them.
Wandering Plague is a big-ass "free cleave" talent, which Blizzard has said -- and shown thus far in Cataclysm -- they're trying to weed out of the melee classes, so it makes sense that it would be removed for that purpose. In fact, I'm a little surprised it wasn't mentioned (but not too surprised since GC is a busy guy).
my first frost spec didnt take into consideration how important runic power was to frost, so i didnt take chill of the grave or butchery. Respec'd when i hit 65 to get those talents. Lessen learned.
Frost at 65 is a lot of fun, and very fast. The lack of health regen from Blood is offset by a simple Death Strike replacing Obliterate, once in a while.
Got around to trying out my DK in the beta this weekend because I wanted to see how the new rune system felt. The potential is there, but mostly I was just reminded of how awful playing a DK without a rune add-on is.
Also, Scourge Strike using just an Unholy rune is... odd.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Do you have a rune addon you recommend? I use Acherus Rune, but lately it's been irritating me because its Proc notification function appears to be broken.
Got around to trying out my DK in the beta this weekend because I wanted to see how the new rune system felt. The potential is there, but mostly I was just reminded of how awful playing a DK without a rune add-on is.
Also, Scourge Strike using just an Unholy rune is... odd.
Whoa whoa whoa... what?
What else did they change regarding costs? I've been *really* curious about this, forty. (it comes to mind that this info is *probably* in the DK class preview on MMO, but I didn't actually pay attention to costs as I didn't realize they were changing at the time. And I'm at work currently, so I can't check myself.)
Are all the UFs now just one or the other? Is DnD still all three?
Hell, even if it's just Scourge Strike... what the hell do you spend Frosts on in your rotation now as Unholy? Currently I'm thinking Oblits are a Frost now, so you'd actually be using both perhaps. But then what does that make Death Strike?
I suppose I should stop theorizing until I actually find out, if you get a chance to respond.
As far as the main attacks/strikes go, SS seemed to be the only one that changed. I'm curious if it's a mistake that will be corrected. Death Strike and Obliterate are both still FU. I remember they said DnD was going to use just a blood rune at one point (this was a month or two ago), but as of now it just costs one unholy rune, which is nice (although the damage seemed to be a lot lower as well). AotD is still one of each. The RP abilities all seemed to have the same cost.
So yeah, pretty much just SS and DnD are different right now, and I don't know what Unholy is expected to do with the extra frost runes. I don't know if SS is going to go back to FU or if they've got some crazy plan up their sleeves about the unholy rotation.
As a side note, for anyone doubting the big talent overhaul they just announced, the 51-point trees are really becoming quite a mess, so now I'm kind of eager to see them go away.
Interesting... yeah, in that case SS costing one Unholy seems like some kind of issue. I kind of like my vague thought of SS being Unholy, probably Death Strike as an Unholy and then Obliterate being Frost. So you'd weave either a SS or DS and then spent your Frosts on Obliterate. But then that would make DS the other 'main' strike for both Blood tanks and Frost DPS. So I'm not sure how well that works as an idea.
I am curious what their idea for DnD is then though... purely a tanking move with the lower damage but high threat? But with 'AoE tanking blitzes' kind of out of the picture, supposedly, maybe that isn't necessary anymore.
I'm not doubting the talent overhaul at all. I'm just really interested to see what the new DK trees are going to look like. I'm guessing things like Black Ice going away or as part of the tree specialization for Frost... who knows.
I just really hope Blood tanks are able to take Spell Deflection as part of a standard build. I *love* Spell Deflection. Yeah, it may not be fantastic, but I just love watching spells to rocketing off me at crazy angles. Especially chain lightnings. Hell, maybe that'll be Blood tanks' tree specialization, who knows.
I didn't mean to imply that you were doubting it. It was more of a general statement, because after actually logging into the beta and trying to make a talent spec out of these bloated, awkward trees on an actual character, it really drives home the point of the overhaul.
I didn't mean to imply that you were doubting it. It was more of a general statement, because after actually logging into the beta and trying to make a talent spec out of these bloated, awkward trees on an actual character, it really drives home the point of the overhaul.
Oh I know, wasn't really referring specifically to that, just that I definitely agree. The people who are pissed about this reduction are crazy. Cut out the fluff!
Dranyth on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Hrm. Not holding aggro as well as I used to just two levels ago. I've stacked a lot of tank gear, so +defense, +sta, +str, and I'm wielding Savage Cobalt Slicers. And I seem to lose one or two adds in a three or four pull. Usually not a problem because of Dark Command. But I'm wondering if this is just the natural progression of instances, or if I'm doing something wrong.
It was a bit tight for me around that level. I think that's where a lot of classes get their massive AoE spells. The only time I had a problem was a lock in full heirlooms spaming seed. As frost though I would have thought you would have more abilities to manage that. For me it was DnD, IT, PS, Pest, sit for about 5 seconds waiting for my blood rune to BB (if BT wasnt up). If he got some crits in that patch, I lost em. I would have thought a HB in there would cement them onto you?
I am curious what their idea for DnD is then though... purely a tanking move with the lower damage but high threat? But with 'AoE tanking blitzes' kind of out of the picture, supposedly, maybe that isn't necessary anymore.
It's still necessary. There will still be AoE pulls (that's why DPS have aoe spells after all).
Plus, it's our substitute for lacking an AoE taunt.
shryke on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
It was a bit tight for me around that level. I think that's where a lot of classes get their massive AoE spells. The only time I had a problem was a lock in full heirlooms spaming seed. As frost though I would have thought you would have more abilities to manage that. For me it was DnD, IT, PS, Pest, sit for about 5 seconds waiting for my blood rune to BB (if BT wasnt up). If he got some crits in that patch, I lost em. I would have thought a HB in there would cement them onto you?
The HBs used to do it, no problem. For some reason, not as much. With the focus on +Def, I'm getting a lot fewer crits big crits than I used to on the HBs. I'm 76 now, and I was definitely having problems in Gun'drak about every other pull or so. My AOE tanking rotation goes something like
HB -> IT -> BB -> BB -> FS, and so on as necessary. That would build up enough initial aggro for everyone to burn things down. Doesn't work quite as well now.
Here's my armory page. I'm using pretty cookie cutter builds and gear at this point, so I think my problem is that I'm terrible/mediocre, and I need to figure out how not to be.
I think you definately need to throw down a DnD, the threat on that thing is amazing. If someone pulls an extra pack or something and it doesn't walk through my DnD, or DnD is on cooldown, its a bitch to get and hold aggro (particularly if there are no death runes up).
Your gear is better than what I was using - I only had the green crafted set, not the blue one. I had the heirloom 2 handed axe though. And yeah, grab some glyphs.
Yeah, for one thing you want HB Glyphed so it spreads Frost Fever, then some Blood Boils should take care of everything else. The way I understand it you don't *really* need DnD as Frost tanking, but I never really got into it.
However, *god* I love DW Frost DPS. I wasn't that into it at first but it's growing on me quickly.
Dranyth on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
You appear to have no glyphs. Is that Armory fudging up or do you really not have any glyphs?
No that's correct. I'm pretty poor, so glyphs were a luxory. But if I've reached the point where they are a necessary part of the build, then I'll bite the bullet and buy the ones I need.
I know glyphed HB is a must. Any other recommendations?
You appear to have no glyphs. Is that Armory fudging up or do you really not have any glyphs?
No that's correct. I'm pretty poor, so glyphs were a luxory. But if I've reached the point where they are a necessary part of the build, then I'll bite the bullet and buy the ones I need.
I know glyphed HB is a must. Any other recommendations?
Glyph wise, look at grabbing
MAJOR: Howling Blast; after that the choices open up dramatically, but take a look at Obliterate, Death and Decay, Frost Strike, Rune Strike, and Disease. Each offers something to the table.
MINOR: Horn of Winter is the mainstay. Other options would be Pestilence (if you incorporate into AE builds), Raise Dead, and Blood Tap.
One of the most significant variations in Frost tanking is whether or not you follow the Icy Talons tree. Builds without it see the Blood tree with some more points, especially into Bladed Armour, and sometimes into Scent of Blood.
If you're keeping Icy Talons (a good idea for 5, and 10 mans; 25 man raids see DK's vying over each tree's bonuses, and a 2nd DK could potentially free up the points later), then hit Blade Barrier and stop there.
Another suggestion would be grabbing Deathchill. The burst damage from a critical Howling Blast is very useful if you're having trouble with larger AoE groups at your level. Most 80 builds don't call for it, but it's a comfortable talent to have if your DPS is giving you trouble.
The only place I can see for taking points out to afford Deathchill is from Imp. Frost Pres. I'm butchering an end-game mainstay, but it'd free you up a point to snag Deathchill, and another point to snag a full 5/5 Anticipation (if you free'd up Bladed Armour and redirected the points into Unholy.) It's not for everyone, but the Deathchill helps you recover from overeager DPS in the mid-level WOTLK 5-mans.
By End-Game, you can reappropriate the points into Imp. Frost Pres, but for now Deatchill might help you, and maxing Anticipation in Unholy is very useful.
As for rotations, you should definately be casting DnD on large groups. The threat boost is significant, and damn near necessary if the DPS is giving you trouble.
Put DnD on your start, and then follow it with your HB (get that glyph!), and spam BB to your heart's content. Dranyth is right as it's a nice, safe rotation, but the DnD is a good inclusion. It's going to throw off your Blood Boil spam by a bit, but you could add in a Glyph of Blood Tap to modify it. Throw your IT, Oblits, and FS dumps in wherever you feel safe with it, and the DPS should be off your back.
OmnomnomPancake on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Wonderful advice. Thanks Pancake. I'll play with my build--glyphs first, I think--and see how things shake out.
HB -> IT -> BB -> BB -> FS, and so on as necessary. That would build up enough initial aggro for everyone to burn things down. Doesn't work quite as well now.
You shouldn't have to change anything about this if you just get the glyph of HB.
DK - Blood
A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain himself/herself in the face of an enemy onslaught.
Veteran of the Third War (+stam/expertise)
Death Rune Mastery
Heart Strike
Vengeance
DK - Frost
An icy harbinger of doom, channeling runic power and delivering rapid weapon strikes.
Frost Strike
Icy Talons
Blood of the North
DK - Unholy
A master of death and decay, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do his/her bidding.
Impurity
Master of Ghouls
Scourge Strike
Reaping
So all DKs get the Death Rune making talent for specialization. And the tree's signature strike. I figured Unholy would be Master of Ghouls, though I didn't call Frost's being Icy Talons. Interesting... and all Blood DKs are Vets of the Third War now, heh.
He doesn't have the remade trees up just yet, really curious to see them though.
Dranyth on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
Heart Strike and Master of Ghouls were the easy calls to make there. Frost Strike and Scourge Strike I was expecting to be stuff you'd have to talent for but I guess it falls in line with Heart Strike.
As a spell damage buff I guess it's 'boring'? Eh, fair enough. I just think it's amusing Frost only gets 3 things while the other two get 4... well, Unholy gets 4, I guess Blood's 'fourth' is just the tanking Vengeance ability.
But if they were giving Heart Strike I can see how they gave all specs a signature strike. Frost Strike seems about equal to Heart, giving Scourge Strike though... that seems a bit major.
Dranyth on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
I'm not getting too caught up on the amount of abilities each spec is getting for each class. Different abilities, passive or active, have different magnitudes of effect for each class.
And yeah, not every class / spec has their Mastery ability listed.
*Very* interesting... but god, I can't really see spending less than 34 points in Blood for tanking, so many good things.
I also specced out a DW Frost build, the Frost tree part was pretty easy at 31 points, but then I wasn't sure whether to split the remaining 10 and go 5 in Unholy to pick up the spell hit and a couple points in longer diseases, then 5 in blood to grab Bladed Armor and I guess Butchery. Or to combine them so I could at least get Blood-Caked Blade again.
For DPS there are a couple wasted points you have to spend to get down to BCB, so... not sure if that's going to be worth it. Very interesting though, I like so far.
Posts
Now if you had guessed that Wandering Plague would be going away, you'd deserve some props.
Look, even Rage of Rivendare is up there.
And since there will still inevitably be boring talents, that kind of defeats your statement.
Even better considering im missing about 6 item slots.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&cn=Nyrruk
my first frost spec didnt take into consideration how important runic power was to frost, so i didnt take chill of the grave or butchery. Respec'd when i hit 65 to get those talents. Lessen learned.
Then I got sick of being a lowbie.
So now I am a frost DK wearing leather who tanks! Nothing can possibly go wrong with this.
PS4:MrZoompants
Also Blood or Unholy presence? Personally leaning towards Unholy.
Also, Scourge Strike using just an Unholy rune is... odd.
PSN: Threeve703
I use other things for keeping track of procs and debuffs.
Whoa whoa whoa... what?
What else did they change regarding costs? I've been *really* curious about this, forty. (it comes to mind that this info is *probably* in the DK class preview on MMO, but I didn't actually pay attention to costs as I didn't realize they were changing at the time. And I'm at work currently, so I can't check myself.)
Are all the UFs now just one or the other? Is DnD still all three?
Hell, even if it's just Scourge Strike... what the hell do you spend Frosts on in your rotation now as Unholy? Currently I'm thinking Oblits are a Frost now, so you'd actually be using both perhaps. But then what does that make Death Strike?
I suppose I should stop theorizing until I actually find out, if you get a chance to respond.
So yeah, pretty much just SS and DnD are different right now, and I don't know what Unholy is expected to do with the extra frost runes. I don't know if SS is going to go back to FU or if they've got some crazy plan up their sleeves about the unholy rotation.
As a side note, for anyone doubting the big talent overhaul they just announced, the 51-point trees are really becoming quite a mess, so now I'm kind of eager to see them go away.
I am curious what their idea for DnD is then though... purely a tanking move with the lower damage but high threat? But with 'AoE tanking blitzes' kind of out of the picture, supposedly, maybe that isn't necessary anymore.
I'm not doubting the talent overhaul at all. I'm just really interested to see what the new DK trees are going to look like. I'm guessing things like Black Ice going away or as part of the tree specialization for Frost... who knows.
I just really hope Blood tanks are able to take Spell Deflection as part of a standard build. I *love* Spell Deflection. Yeah, it may not be fantastic, but I just love watching spells to rocketing off me at crazy angles. Especially chain lightnings. Hell, maybe that'll be Blood tanks' tree specialization, who knows.
Oh I know, wasn't really referring specifically to that, just that I definitely agree. The people who are pissed about this reduction are crazy. Cut out the fluff!
PSN: Threeve703
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
It's still necessary. There will still be AoE pulls (that's why DPS have aoe spells after all).
Plus, it's our substitute for lacking an AoE taunt.
The HBs used to do it, no problem. For some reason, not as much. With the focus on +Def, I'm getting a lot fewer crits big crits than I used to on the HBs. I'm 76 now, and I was definitely having problems in Gun'drak about every other pull or so. My AOE tanking rotation goes something like
HB -> IT -> BB -> BB -> FS, and so on as necessary. That would build up enough initial aggro for everyone to burn things down. Doesn't work quite as well now.
Here's my armory page. I'm using pretty cookie cutter builds and gear at this point, so I think my problem is that I'm terrible/mediocre, and I need to figure out how not to be.
PSN: Threeve703
Your gear is better than what I was using - I only had the green crafted set, not the blue one. I had the heirloom 2 handed axe though. And yeah, grab some glyphs.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
However, *god* I love DW Frost DPS. I wasn't that into it at first but it's growing on me quickly.
No that's correct. I'm pretty poor, so glyphs were a luxory. But if I've reached the point where they are a necessary part of the build, then I'll bite the bullet and buy the ones I need.
I know glyphed HB is a must. Any other recommendations?
PSN: Threeve703
Glyph wise, look at grabbing
MAJOR: Howling Blast; after that the choices open up dramatically, but take a look at Obliterate, Death and Decay, Frost Strike, Rune Strike, and Disease. Each offers something to the table.
MINOR: Horn of Winter is the mainstay. Other options would be Pestilence (if you incorporate into AE builds), Raise Dead, and Blood Tap.
One of the most significant variations in Frost tanking is whether or not you follow the Icy Talons tree. Builds without it see the Blood tree with some more points, especially into Bladed Armour, and sometimes into Scent of Blood.
If you're keeping Icy Talons (a good idea for 5, and 10 mans; 25 man raids see DK's vying over each tree's bonuses, and a 2nd DK could potentially free up the points later), then hit Blade Barrier and stop there.
Another suggestion would be grabbing Deathchill. The burst damage from a critical Howling Blast is very useful if you're having trouble with larger AoE groups at your level. Most 80 builds don't call for it, but it's a comfortable talent to have if your DPS is giving you trouble.
The only place I can see for taking points out to afford Deathchill is from Imp. Frost Pres. I'm butchering an end-game mainstay, but it'd free you up a point to snag Deathchill, and another point to snag a full 5/5 Anticipation (if you free'd up Bladed Armour and redirected the points into Unholy.) It's not for everyone, but the Deathchill helps you recover from overeager DPS in the mid-level WOTLK 5-mans.
By End-Game, you can reappropriate the points into Imp. Frost Pres, but for now Deatchill might help you, and maxing Anticipation in Unholy is very useful.
As for rotations, you should definately be casting DnD on large groups. The threat boost is significant, and damn near necessary if the DPS is giving you trouble.
Put DnD on your start, and then follow it with your HB (get that glyph!), and spam BB to your heart's content. Dranyth is right as it's a nice, safe rotation, but the DnD is a good inclusion. It's going to throw off your Blood Boil spam by a bit, but you could add in a Glyph of Blood Tap to modify it. Throw your IT, Oblits, and FS dumps in wherever you feel safe with it, and the DPS should be off your back.
PSN: Threeve703
So all DKs get the Death Rune making talent for specialization. And the tree's signature strike. I figured Unholy would be Master of Ghouls, though I didn't call Frost's being Icy Talons. Interesting... and all Blood DKs are Vets of the Third War now, heh.
He doesn't have the remade trees up just yet, really curious to see them though.
What I wasn't expecting was Impurity in Unholy.
But if they were giving Heart Strike I can see how they gave all specs a signature strike. Frost Strike seems about equal to Heart, giving Scourge Strike though... that seems a bit major.
And yeah, not every class / spec has their Mastery ability listed.
Which in itself seems weird.
*Very* interesting... but god, I can't really see spending less than 34 points in Blood for tanking, so many good things.
I also specced out a DW Frost build, the Frost tree part was pretty easy at 31 points, but then I wasn't sure whether to split the remaining 10 and go 5 in Unholy to pick up the spell hit and a couple points in longer diseases, then 5 in blood to grab Bladed Armor and I guess Butchery. Or to combine them so I could at least get Blood-Caked Blade again.
For DPS there are a couple wasted points you have to spend to get down to BCB, so... not sure if that's going to be worth it. Very interesting though, I like so far.
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=tR5V5xKX.9mn.deathknight
But then again, I still don't take Rune Tap. Maybe it'll be useful with the higher health pools and lower overall damage this time around.