I don't think it's an effort to reset the character, exactly. He still did the things that he did. The difference is that he now has to honestly confront them, whereas before the writers were obligated to make him act like it was all justified, even when logic suggested otherwise, since it was the only way for the SHRA storyline to work. Cap had the same problem.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
See, I do think he was justified with the pro-reg, it was just the writers who screwed it up royally (but also leads to the point if you can't do something like CW right, don't attempt it to begin with).
But the "he still did the things he did" angle is what they've said about Spidey-Man, and that hasn't really worked out both in a continuity sense as well as actually following through with it.
See, I do think he was justified with the pro-reg, it was just the writers who screwed it up royally (but also leads to the point if you can't do something like CW right, don't attempt it to begin with).
But the "he still did the things he did" angle is what they've said about Spidey-Man, and that hasn't really worked out both in a continuity sense as well as actually following through with it.
When they apply it to Spider-Man, it's disingenuous because nobody remembers "what he did", so there's been no lasting impact to the actions despite the fact that they technically happened. Basically, the argument only matters in the sense that it means those comics are still in-continuity.
With Stark, "he still did what he did" means that while Stark has no direct recollection, he's at least still aware, as is the rest of the world. The only difference now is that he's able to view his actions from a more objective point of view, and therefore better understand how others see him as well where he went wrong.
In short, while BND made it possible for Peter to escape the consequences of his choices, this storyline has made it possible for Stark to really confront them for the first time (outside of The Confession).
I don't think Tony will be completely against what he did during his time in charge when he pieces everything together. Some things he'll be surprised at I'm sure but overall his personality should remain the same.
Yeah, but with Spider-Man no one else remembers either. What I found weird was how during the FF arc when Peter took his mask off they all of a sudden remembered and were cool with him. Hopefully with IIM, everyone still treats him like a silly goose until he does something to prove otherwise.
I don't think Tony will be completely against what he did during his time in charge when he pieces everything together. Some things he'll be surprised at I'm sure but overall his personality should remain the same.
The benefit of hindsight and detachment has a tremendous effect no how you view a series of events. He also won't have access to his firsthand perspective.
Nonetheless, he will still be biased and will see a lot of what he did as understandable.
See, I do think he was justified with the pro-reg, it was just the writers who screwed it up royally (but also leads to the point if you can't do something like CW right, don't attempt it to begin with).
But the "he still did the things he did" angle is what they've said about Spidey-Man, and that hasn't really worked out both in a continuity sense as well as actually following through with it.
The concept was great and it could have been a truly excellent metaphor for the security vs freedom debate, but as you said the writers made the pro-reg guys villains simply due to the amount of stupid, unpleasant shit they did. It is very hard to read that book and not see Cap as the hero. It don't think it was automatically going to fail as more complex ideas have been put forward in mainstream superhero comics before, but perhaps a team of overall writers with a single or even a brain trust of scripters would have been a better idea and kept author bias from tilting the story one way or the other (though Millar said that he didn't see how anybody wouldn't be pro-reg, I don't get that unless he has a thing for authoritarian, law-breaking governments).
See, I do think he was justified with the pro-reg, it was just the writers who screwed it up royally (but also leads to the point if you can't do something like CW right, don't attempt it to begin with).
But the "he still did the things he did" angle is what they've said about Spidey-Man, and that hasn't really worked out both in a continuity sense as well as actually following through with it.
The concept was great and it could have been a truly excellent metaphor for the security vs freedom debate, but as you said the writers made the pro-reg guys villains simply due to the amount of stupid, unpleasant shit they did. It is very hard to read that book and not see Cap as the hero. It don't think it was automatically going to fail as more complex ideas have been put forward in mainstream superhero comics before, but perhaps a team of overall writers with a single or even a brain trust of scripters would have been a better idea and kept author bias from tilting the story one way or the other (though Millar said that he didn't see how anybody wouldn't be pro-reg, I don't get that unless he has a thing for authoritarian, law-breaking governments).
Perhaps he meant it in the sense of "he didn't see how anyone, put in the shoes of a Marvel universe citizen, wouldn't support registration of super humans who have formerly run amok with no accountability whatsoever".
Is this the part of the thread where we sigh because the premise of Civil War was excellent but the actual handling with fumbles-ville?
I mean, it's not a ridiculous fascist question to propose to someone, "Imagine the next door neighbor's surly, confused 16 year old wakes up tomorrow with a F-18 Hornet, fully armed and ready to fly. Do you think he should at least have to get some kind of license to fly this thing?"
And then you work on the liberty vs. security from there and you throw in some rainbow tights and guys punching each other and off you go.
But no.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Is this the part of the thread where we sigh because the premise of Civil War was excellent but the actual handling with fumbles-ville?
I mean, it's not a ridiculous fascist question to propose to someone, "Imagine the next door neighbor's surly, confused 16 year old wakes up tomorrow with a F-18 Hornet, fully armed and ready to fly. Do you think he should at least have to get some kind of license to fly this thing?"
And then you work on the liberty vs. security from there and you throw in some rainbow tights and guys punching each other and off you go.
But no.
It's also the point where we laugh at JMS' terrible rationale for Reed being pro-reg, and then two issues later Dwayne McDuffie ignores it completely to give a much more reasonable and better argument.
Is this the part of the thread where we sigh because the premise of Civil War was excellent but the actual handling with fumbles-ville?
I mean, it's not a ridiculous fascist question to propose to someone, "Imagine the next door neighbor's surly, confused 16 year old wakes up tomorrow with a F-18 Hornet, fully armed and ready to fly. Do you think he should at least have to get some kind of license to fly this thing?"
And then you work on the liberty vs. security from there and you throw in some rainbow tights and guys punching each other and off you go.
But no.
It's also the point where we laugh at JMS' terrible rationale for Reed being pro-reg, and then two issues later Dwayne McDuffie ignores it completely to give a much more reasonable and better argument.
But that led into the saga where the world not being dead and everyone killed is because Reed is just so fucking awesome. He was almost as bad as Pym for like 6 issues.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
It's all numbers, chaos theory. Reed even has the Mad Thinker look over his work (this is the first time I think we see of Reed's room where it's just a big dry-erase board with formulas) to make sure he did it right.
Reed understands things will turn to crap, because they always do when adding in superhumans to the mix, but the SHRA is the smallest piece of crap that he can deduce from all the outcomes.
The whole SHRA storyline could have been completely sane if they just didn't make it into a system of gulags. I mean, they basically force you to either become a killer, be imprisoned in crazy-land, or be forcibly depowered. All they needed was a public schooling program for powers. Mandatory, but you don't need to be a member of the armed forces. Teach frigging "girl who successfully grew back limbs" and "shy girl who can float" to be productive members of society instead of goddamn snipers.
But I guess if they'd been more sane about it, there wouldn't be the possibility of a big hero vs. hero fight scene, which is totally what the readers clamor for. Nothing like seeing superheroes hurting each other for no particular reason.
The only good part was when Nova came down briefly to bitch them out.
The SHRA was stupid because they're already risking their lives to protect the innocent and they're being asked to do it with more skill while the wildly untrained super villains run amok and purposely target villains to force the heroes to kill themselves.
Perhaps he meant it in the sense of "he didn't see how anyone, put in the shoes of a Marvel universe citizen, wouldn't support registration of super humans who have formerly run amok with no accountability whatsoever".
Which seems plausible to me.
What I don't get is that they effectively were registered/authorized by the US and UN as the Avengers. It's not like a model didn't successfully exist before then for heroes.
The one thing about OMD that amazes me is what someone on a podcast recently said: This is the first time EVER (as in, not just comics; ever in any medium) that someone made a deal with the Devil and the Devil kept his end of the bargain/didn't lie his ass off.
Its also the first time a protagonist has been taht fucking stupid in making the deal either. He didnt even get his hearts desire or the perceived heart's desire/wishes model that other Faustian pacts did. He straight up traded the love of his life and a lifetime of happiness for a 100 year old woman that will die of natural cuases in a few years. The devil came out ahead on that deal and didnt even have to cheat or bend rules to fuck over the hero.
Its also the first time a protagonist has been taht fucking stupid in making the deal either. He didnt even get his hearts desire or the perceived heart's desire/wishes model that other Faustian pacts did. He straight up traded the love of his life and a lifetime of happiness for a 100 year old woman that will die of natural cuases in a few years. The devil came out ahead on that deal and didnt even have to cheat or bend rules to fuck over the hero.
To be fair he traded them for May getting some booty.
And he didn't exactly trade years of happiness, hes been a miserable bastard for years, I can only imagine how miserable he'd be if he had kids. Every fight would end with him getting his ass kicked before "No...I have to do this for May and Ben" until the Goblin threw them both off a bridge.
Its also the first time a protagonist has been taht fucking stupid in making the deal either. He didnt even get his hearts desire or the perceived heart's desire/wishes model that other Faustian pacts did. He straight up traded the love of his life and a lifetime of happiness for a 100 year old woman that will die of natural cuases in a few years. The devil came out ahead on that deal and didnt even have to cheat or bend rules to fuck over the hero.
I agree entirely. He made a deal with the devil to sacrifice the best thing in his life for a few years of Aunt Fossil. And I do believe there is something to be said for the parallels between Peter Parker and Joe Quesada's comments which alluded to him wishing he could make the same choice. Usually I think that kind of thing is crap but it's not beyond belief.
I have to think everyone that is not a top Marvel guy realizes that story should have ended with May dying, probably of something simple like old age in her sleep, something Peter couldn't have fought and changed and didn't cause.
maybe I missed something but why would Ghosts employers give a shit if he killed Tony Stark even if hes not been sent there by Osborn (I cant remember who sent him). Ghost could've ripped his fucking skull out and put an end to it but what we get is a smug Pepper gathering that he would somehow care or his employer, Norman Osborn, would care if he slaughtered Stark.
And then Ghost did care. For whatever reason
And then Stark wakes up and understands exactly what is going on enough to transport Ghost across the world and gggggggggggggggggraaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And now he's back and looks like he'll be back in armour before the end of Siege, doesn't seem to have had any downside to his 12 issue lobotomy apart from the convenient loss of memory from his biggest dick period.
Honestly it seems even worse than OMD.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
Fraction's been slipping a lot recently, maybe working with Brubaker helped channel his ideas better, because he's just not clicking with me anymore. You get these little blips like he might have found his stride like he did with Uncanny X-Men 518 & 519, then he goes back to what 75% of his Iron Man run has been.
I have to think everyone that is not a top Marvel guy realizes that story should have ended with May dying, probably of something simple like old age in her sleep, something Peter couldn't have fought and changed and didn't cause.
You know, if someone told me that the current arc of Spider-man was him dealing with Aunt May's failing health and her insistence that she be allowed to die with dignity and thus Peter has a good reason to mope around for once but the stress of it leads to him losing his marriage, I would have been running red lights to get to the comic book store.
I had to read the explanation of his deal with Mephisto and then go google it for confirmation, because I thought the person typing the summary was just trolling.
Fraction's been slipping a lot recently, maybe working with Brubaker helped channel his ideas better, because he's just not clicking with me anymore. You get these little blips like he might have found his stride like he did with Uncanny X-Men 518 & 519, then he goes back to what 75% of his Iron Man run has been.
I wouldn't mind, Thor I have no problem with he's not been anywhere but both Captain and Man have both wasted issue after issue achieving nothing and then come back with absolutely no downsides. Captain was shot, fucking shot and then shot a few more times and then it was retconned for him to travel t hrough time and then somehow get possessed by Red Skull after being drawn out of time and after a mental battle against someone you'd expect to be superior on a mental plane considering his physical inferiority, he regained full control, jerked one out and threw the uniform back on before leading the rest of the alive heroes in battle. Fucker didn't even have to get his sea legs back.
And now Iron.
They may as well have been on vacation. But Fraction is the biggest criminal for wasting our money and time for so long on something that went nowhere. I mean I may be proved wrong but considering the next time preview, hes gonna be back in armour and not struggle at all. He should've been left mind fucked and had to start over, at least the story we've been reading might have actually led somewhere.
He should've been left mind fucked and had to start over, at least the story we've been reading might have actually led to us reading the awesome adventures of Rescue while Tony's in physical therapy.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Seriously? Really, that's the solution to all of this? That Tony Stark's master plan was to restore his mind from a backup that he hadn't gotten around to updating in 3+ years? That's the kind of technologically illiterate mistake that my parents make, not Tony effing Stark. Not to mention that that's just an incredibly flimsy way to 'fix' the character (no fix at all would have been better than 'oh whatever he doesn't remember any of the civil war or anything). I didn't like a lot of the choices that Tony made, but, written properly, those choices could easily have been explained and, in the process, grown him as a character. Instead we get the literal reset button, and any relationships or perspectives that Tony's developed in the last several years are just gone. It's not even consistent within the issue, since, if his brain is rolled back as far as it supposedly is, then he wouldn't even know that Happy was dead. Seriously, this is almost as dumb as BND.
Good job, Fraction. At least before, when nothing was happening in IIM, we could at least have said "well, FWIW it's not actively erasing character development." I was just taking for granted that no writer would be lame/dumb enough to do that. I get that when a character is completely broken, sometimes this stuff is necessary, but Iron Man wasn't broken. This was just an easy way out, and a crappy one that invalidated a few years' worth of issues. (if it wasn't clear already, I'm really hoping that this doesn't stick)
So basically, it's like this
Only with Tony Stark's brain.
Seriously? Really, that's the solution to all of this? That Tony Stark's master plan was to restore his mind from a backup that he hadn't gotten around to updating in 3+ years? That's the kind of technologically illiterate mistake that my parents make, not Tony effing Stark. Not to mention that that's just an incredibly flimsy way to 'fix' the character (no fix at all would have been better than 'oh whatever he doesn't remember any of the civil war or anything). I didn't like a lot of the choices that Tony made, but, written properly, those choices could easily have been explained and, in the process, grown him as a character. Instead we get the literal reset button, and any relationships or perspectives that Tony's developed in the last several years are just gone. It's not even consistent within the issue, since, if his brain is rolled back as far as it supposedly is, then he wouldn't even know that Happy was dead. Seriously, this is almost as dumb as BND.
Good job, Fraction. At least before, when nothing was happening in IIM, we could at least have said "well, FWIW it's not actively erasing character development." I was just taking for granted that no writer would be lame/dumb enough to do that. I get that when a character is completely broken, sometimes this stuff is necessary, but Iron Man wasn't broken. This was just an easy way out, and a crappy one that invalidated a few years' worth of issues. (if it wasn't clear already, I'm really hoping that this doesn't stick)
So basically, it's like this
Only with Tony Stark's brain.
I'd love to rub my dick on Tony Stark's brain.
EDIT: Better quote the previous post. Best totp ever.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
So apparently this is the reason Peter Parker will be fired in an upcoming ASM issue:
He doctors photographs in order to exonerate JJJ from being accused of a crime or something. Apparently Jameson was innocent already but there was no evidence to support it or something, thus Parker doctors up photographs and it's found out
If that is the case, he really needs to shut up with the moral high horse he always seems to be on when he hangs out with the Avengers. It's not as bad as wanting to kill Osborn (as if that's a bad thing), but still doesn't lend well to pointing fingers at everyone else.
They always like to talk about Parker's "bad luck" but most of his problems are because he makes stupid decisions. Like choosing Aunt May over his hot super-model wife. What the fuck.
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Psychotic OneThe Lord of No PantsParts UnknownRegistered Userregular
So apparently this is the reason Peter Parker will be fired in an upcoming ASM issue:
He doctors photographs in order to exonerate JJJ from being accused of a crime or something. Apparently Jameson was innocent already but there was no evidence to support it or something, thus Parker doctors up photographs and it's found out
If that is the case, he really needs to shut up with the moral high horse he always seems to be on when he hangs out with the Avengers. It's not as bad as wanting to kill Osborn (as if that's a bad thing), but still doesn't lend well to pointing fingers at everyone else.
They always like to talk about Parker's "bad luck" but most of his problems are because he makes stupid decisions. Like choosing his decrepit Aunt May over his devoted, loving and hot super-model wife. What the fuck.
I don't think it's an effort to reset the character, exactly. He still did the things that he did. The difference is that he now has to honestly confront them, whereas before the writers were obligated to make him act like it was all justified, even when logic suggested otherwise, since it was the only way for the SHRA storyline to work. Cap had the same problem.
Were the writers obligated to make him act like it was all justified? He already admitted in the Confession that it wasn't worth it. From there, how much of a leap is it to acknowledge that he made mistakes in the pursuit of what he saw as a greater good?
After thinking about it for some time, though, I'm mostly just bitter that this will deprive us of one of the scenes that I was most looking forward to: Cap and Tony having to confront each other and put aside their differences/reconcile in some way. Given Tony's actions in Fallen Son and What If: Civil War, how would he react to Cap being back? Would he take that as an opportunity for introspection and reevaluating why he's a hero and who's important to him? How would Cap react to seeing his former best friend, who had essentially gotten him killed? Wouldn't it have been incredibly badass when Cap forgave Tony, realizing that the guy was simply doing everything that he could for the American people, and that he did right by Bucky when nobody else would and honestly atoned for his mistakes?
Considering how much genuine and compelling mileage their interactions could have had in the upcoming Avengers series, and the badass potential of them finally burying the hatchet, I'm actually kinda shocked that they used the mind reset to take all of this off the table. Iron Man's an awesome character, and he was set up perfectly for a historically good rehabilitation effort. I really think that a good writer could have come in and used Siege/Cap's return as a jumping off point for writing some of the best Iron Man material ever; the kind of stuff that would become the character's defining storyline, even. Marvel had an absolutely phenomenal opportunity in its hands, but one that would have required some genuine talent to execute. Instead, they completely blew it.
I don't think it's an effort to reset the character, exactly. He still did the things that he did. The difference is that he now has to honestly confront them, whereas before the writers were obligated to make him act like it was all justified, even when logic suggested otherwise, since it was the only way for the SHRA storyline to work. Cap had the same problem.
Were the writers obligated to make him act like it was all justified? He already admitted in the Confession that it wasn't worth it. From there, how much of a leap is it to acknowledge that he made mistakes in the pursuit of what he saw as a greater good?
After thinking about it for some time, though, I'm mostly just bitter that this will deprive us of one of the scenes that I was most looking forward to: Cap and Tony having to confront each other and put aside their differences/reconcile in some way. Given Tony's actions in Fallen Son and What If: Civil War, how would he react to Cap being back? Would he take that as an opportunity for introspection and reevaluating why he's a hero and who's important to him? How would Cap react to seeing his former best friend, who had essentially gotten him killed? Wouldn't it have been incredibly badass when Cap forgave Tony, realizing that the guy was simply doing everything that he could for the American people, and that he did right by Bucky when nobody else would and honestly atoned for his mistakes?
Considering how much genuine and compelling mileage their interactions could have had in the upcoming Avengers series, and the badass potential of them finally burying the hatchet, I'm actually kinda shocked that they used the mind reset to take all of this off the table. Iron Man's an awesome character, and he was set up perfectly for a historically good rehabilitation effort. I really think that a good writer could have come in and used Siege/Cap's return as a jumping off point for writing some of the best Iron Man material ever; the kind of stuff that would become the character's defining storyline, even. Marvel had an absolutely phenomenal opportunity in its hands, but one that would have required some genuine talent to execute. Instead, they completely blew it.
Bendis is still doing this in a miniseries called Avengers Prime. And I have to point out again that Tony still knows what he did during Civil War, this is not like OMD in the least.
I don't think it's an effort to reset the character, exactly. He still did the things that he did. The difference is that he now has to honestly confront them, whereas before the writers were obligated to make him act like it was all justified, even when logic suggested otherwise, since it was the only way for the SHRA storyline to work. Cap had the same problem.
Were the writers obligated to make him act like it was all justified? He already admitted in the Confession that it wasn't worth it. From there, how much of a leap is it to acknowledge that he made mistakes in the pursuit of what he saw as a greater good?
After thinking about it for some time, though, I'm mostly just bitter that this will deprive us of one of the scenes that I was most looking forward to: Cap and Tony having to confront each other and put aside their differences/reconcile in some way. Given Tony's actions in Fallen Son and What If: Civil War, how would he react to Cap being back? Would he take that as an opportunity for introspection and reevaluating why he's a hero and who's important to him? How would Cap react to seeing his former best friend, who had essentially gotten him killed? Wouldn't it have been incredibly badass when Cap forgave Tony, realizing that the guy was simply doing everything that he could for the American people, and that he did right by Bucky when nobody else would and honestly atoned for his mistakes?
Considering how much genuine and compelling mileage their interactions could have had in the upcoming Avengers series, and the badass potential of them finally burying the hatchet, I'm actually kinda shocked that they used the mind reset to take all of this off the table. Iron Man's an awesome character, and he was set up perfectly for a historically good rehabilitation effort. I really think that a good writer could have come in and used Siege/Cap's return as a jumping off point for writing some of the best Iron Man material ever; the kind of stuff that would become the character's defining storyline, even. Marvel had an absolutely phenomenal opportunity in its hands, but one that would have required some genuine talent to execute. Instead, they completely blew it.
Bendis is still doing this in a miniseries called Avengers Prime. And I have to point out again that Tony still knows what he did during Civil War, this is not like OMD in the least.
Having read about what you supposedly did and actually having lived it are very, very different things. Like, when I get black-out drunk, do I apologize for what I did the next day? Of course not. Why? Because it wasn't me. I wasn't even there.
This is barely different than those stories where some superhero finds out that, in some alternate timeline, he turned evil. Yeah, it's him, but it's not really him, because he wasn't in the driver's seat making those decisions. It was a different him, so there's no real accountability there. What's the point?
Ultimately, it just makes Tony's character even dumber. Since we have to at least try to assume that he didn't accidentally forget that he was rebooting himself from a 3+ year old hard drive (which, as i said before, is the kind of mistake that I'd expect some technologically illiterate senior citizen to make), the other explanation is that he just decided that he didn't want to remember all of this stuff. And if that's the case, then he's completely betrayed his own character and all the people who followed him. If I was Cap, I'd beat the shit out of him the second that saw him, in a "oh, so you hunted me down, put me out in the open to get assassinated, killed Bill Foster, caved to political pressure, and cloned Thor, but you didn't even believe in your convictions enough to remember them? Great job, asshat"
So yeah, since neither possible explanation works, we can conclude that it's just lazy writing that will never get explained in any way. The fact that people get paid to write this stuff shocks me sometimes, because I'm not unconvinced that the folks on this board could pilot these franchises better than the braintrusts at Marvel and DC.
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But the "he still did the things he did" angle is what they've said about Spidey-Man, and that hasn't really worked out both in a continuity sense as well as actually following through with it.
When they apply it to Spider-Man, it's disingenuous because nobody remembers "what he did", so there's been no lasting impact to the actions despite the fact that they technically happened. Basically, the argument only matters in the sense that it means those comics are still in-continuity.
With Stark, "he still did what he did" means that while Stark has no direct recollection, he's at least still aware, as is the rest of the world. The only difference now is that he's able to view his actions from a more objective point of view, and therefore better understand how others see him as well where he went wrong.
In short, while BND made it possible for Peter to escape the consequences of his choices, this storyline has made it possible for Stark to really confront them for the first time (outside of The Confession).
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edit. damnit robos for being faster than me
Nonetheless, he will still be biased and will see a lot of what he did as understandable.
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The concept was great and it could have been a truly excellent metaphor for the security vs freedom debate, but as you said the writers made the pro-reg guys villains simply due to the amount of stupid, unpleasant shit they did. It is very hard to read that book and not see Cap as the hero. It don't think it was automatically going to fail as more complex ideas have been put forward in mainstream superhero comics before, but perhaps a team of overall writers with a single or even a brain trust of scripters would have been a better idea and kept author bias from tilting the story one way or the other (though Millar said that he didn't see how anybody wouldn't be pro-reg, I don't get that unless he has a thing for authoritarian, law-breaking governments).
Perhaps he meant it in the sense of "he didn't see how anyone, put in the shoes of a Marvel universe citizen, wouldn't support registration of super humans who have formerly run amok with no accountability whatsoever".
Which seems plausible to me.
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I mean, it's not a ridiculous fascist question to propose to someone, "Imagine the next door neighbor's surly, confused 16 year old wakes up tomorrow with a F-18 Hornet, fully armed and ready to fly. Do you think he should at least have to get some kind of license to fly this thing?"
And then you work on the liberty vs. security from there and you throw in some rainbow tights and guys punching each other and off you go.
But no.
It's also the point where we laugh at JMS' terrible rationale for Reed being pro-reg, and then two issues later Dwayne McDuffie ignores it completely to give a much more reasonable and better argument.
But that led into the saga where the world not being dead and everyone killed is because Reed is just so fucking awesome. He was almost as bad as Pym for like 6 issues.
It's all numbers, chaos theory. Reed even has the Mad Thinker look over his work (this is the first time I think we see of Reed's room where it's just a big dry-erase board with formulas) to make sure he did it right.
Reed understands things will turn to crap, because they always do when adding in superhumans to the mix, but the SHRA is the smallest piece of crap that he can deduce from all the outcomes.
But I guess if they'd been more sane about it, there wouldn't be the possibility of a big hero vs. hero fight scene, which is totally what the readers clamor for. Nothing like seeing superheroes hurting each other for no particular reason.
The only good part was when Nova came down briefly to bitch them out.
What I don't get is that they effectively were registered/authorized by the US and UN as the Avengers. It's not like a model didn't successfully exist before then for heroes.
The one thing about OMD that amazes me is what someone on a podcast recently said: This is the first time EVER (as in, not just comics; ever in any medium) that someone made a deal with the Devil and the Devil kept his end of the bargain/didn't lie his ass off.
To be fair he traded them for May getting some booty.
And he didn't exactly trade years of happiness, hes been a miserable bastard for years, I can only imagine how miserable he'd be if he had kids. Every fight would end with him getting his ass kicked before "No...I have to do this for May and Ben" until the Goblin threw them both off a bridge.
But not before getting lil' May pregnant.
I agree entirely. He made a deal with the devil to sacrifice the best thing in his life for a few years of Aunt Fossil. And I do believe there is something to be said for the parallels between Peter Parker and Joe Quesada's comments which alluded to him wishing he could make the same choice. Usually I think that kind of thing is crap but it's not beyond belief.
And then Ghost did care. For whatever reason
And then Stark wakes up and understands exactly what is going on enough to transport Ghost across the world and gggggggggggggggggraaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And now he's back and looks like he'll be back in armour before the end of Siege, doesn't seem to have had any downside to his 12 issue lobotomy apart from the convenient loss of memory from his biggest dick period.
Honestly it seems even worse than OMD.
You know, if someone told me that the current arc of Spider-man was him dealing with Aunt May's failing health and her insistence that she be allowed to die with dignity and thus Peter has a good reason to mope around for once but the stress of it leads to him losing his marriage, I would have been running red lights to get to the comic book store.
I had to read the explanation of his deal with Mephisto and then go google it for confirmation, because I thought the person typing the summary was just trolling.
I wouldn't mind, Thor I have no problem with he's not been anywhere but both Captain and Man have both wasted issue after issue achieving nothing and then come back with absolutely no downsides. Captain was shot, fucking shot and then shot a few more times and then it was retconned for him to travel t hrough time and then somehow get possessed by Red Skull after being drawn out of time and after a mental battle against someone you'd expect to be superior on a mental plane considering his physical inferiority, he regained full control, jerked one out and threw the uniform back on before leading the rest of the alive heroes in battle. Fucker didn't even have to get his sea legs back.
And now Iron.
They may as well have been on vacation. But Fraction is the biggest criminal for wasting our money and time for so long on something that went nowhere. I mean I may be proved wrong but considering the next time preview, hes gonna be back in armour and not struggle at all. He should've been left mind fucked and had to start over, at least the story we've been reading might have actually led somewhere.
So basically, it's like this
Only with Tony Stark's brain.
I'd love to rub my dick on Tony Stark's brain.
EDIT: Better quote the previous post. Best totp ever.
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
If that is the case, he really needs to shut up with the moral high horse he always seems to be on when he hangs out with the Avengers. It's not as bad as wanting to kill Osborn (as if that's a bad thing), but still doesn't lend well to pointing fingers at everyone else.
So in other words he...
Were the writers obligated to make him act like it was all justified? He already admitted in the Confession that it wasn't worth it. From there, how much of a leap is it to acknowledge that he made mistakes in the pursuit of what he saw as a greater good?
After thinking about it for some time, though, I'm mostly just bitter that this will deprive us of one of the scenes that I was most looking forward to: Cap and Tony having to confront each other and put aside their differences/reconcile in some way. Given Tony's actions in Fallen Son and What If: Civil War, how would he react to Cap being back? Would he take that as an opportunity for introspection and reevaluating why he's a hero and who's important to him? How would Cap react to seeing his former best friend, who had essentially gotten him killed? Wouldn't it have been incredibly badass when Cap forgave Tony, realizing that the guy was simply doing everything that he could for the American people, and that he did right by Bucky when nobody else would and honestly atoned for his mistakes?
Considering how much genuine and compelling mileage their interactions could have had in the upcoming Avengers series, and the badass potential of them finally burying the hatchet, I'm actually kinda shocked that they used the mind reset to take all of this off the table. Iron Man's an awesome character, and he was set up perfectly for a historically good rehabilitation effort. I really think that a good writer could have come in and used Siege/Cap's return as a jumping off point for writing some of the best Iron Man material ever; the kind of stuff that would become the character's defining storyline, even. Marvel had an absolutely phenomenal opportunity in its hands, but one that would have required some genuine talent to execute. Instead, they completely blew it.
And then kills him.
And Topher Grace takes his place.
Bendis is still doing this in a miniseries called Avengers Prime. And I have to point out again that Tony still knows what he did during Civil War, this is not like OMD in the least.
Having read about what you supposedly did and actually having lived it are very, very different things. Like, when I get black-out drunk, do I apologize for what I did the next day? Of course not. Why? Because it wasn't me. I wasn't even there.
This is barely different than those stories where some superhero finds out that, in some alternate timeline, he turned evil. Yeah, it's him, but it's not really him, because he wasn't in the driver's seat making those decisions. It was a different him, so there's no real accountability there. What's the point?
Ultimately, it just makes Tony's character even dumber. Since we have to at least try to assume that he didn't accidentally forget that he was rebooting himself from a 3+ year old hard drive (which, as i said before, is the kind of mistake that I'd expect some technologically illiterate senior citizen to make), the other explanation is that he just decided that he didn't want to remember all of this stuff. And if that's the case, then he's completely betrayed his own character and all the people who followed him. If I was Cap, I'd beat the shit out of him the second that saw him, in a "oh, so you hunted me down, put me out in the open to get assassinated, killed Bill Foster, caved to political pressure, and cloned Thor, but you didn't even believe in your convictions enough to remember them? Great job, asshat"
So yeah, since neither possible explanation works, we can conclude that it's just lazy writing that will never get explained in any way. The fact that people get paid to write this stuff shocks me sometimes, because I'm not unconvinced that the folks on this board could pilot these franchises better than the braintrusts at Marvel and DC.