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He's saying that UE3 is designed with high detail models in mind and has added complexity because of that. It's not that Unity will make low end stuff look better, it seems to me more of a question of why use three story tall pile driver to open a can of soup, right?
However I still think it's based on the concept that indie productions can't manage to produce quality art assets at the detail level needed to really make UE3 shine, and I think that's a flawed assumption.
I'm not saying they are incapable, I am saying it's very difficult to find modelers capable of doing it. It's not like picking up a blender tutorial and making a sword. People go to school for years to learn how to do the movie quality high poly work (which is what you need to make quality normal maps, unless you, again, draw them by hand).
Here's my point: What's the point of using an off the shelf engine for indie development? To save time. If saving time is your goal, and you plan to keep your game in the realm if sanity in terms of art assets (regular poly counts, only a few texture layers), then UE3 may actually get in your way and cost you time, not save you time.
If you actually plan to, and have the resources to, create the high poly models, the normal and depth maps, and all that, freakin' awesome, UDK is made for you. I just question if it's going to be universally more useful to the average indy than something like Unity or Torque, which are easier to pick up and use and don't have a ton of tools that might just get in the way.
This thing still need an external design/modelling program like Maya, doesn't it?
Yes, most likely Maya + ZBrush or Max + ZBrush is what most teams use. You could probably get away with Blender, as it has some high poly functions and normal map generation (I think).
The tool itself has some modeling style tools, but they are in the context of putting a level together out of mostly primitive shapes. You would be hard pressed to create a seriously detailed model using the actual UDK tools.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Oh, btw, I want to point out. High poly models be damned, I still downloaded and installed this and started to work on a custom game package last night, because it's still fucking awesome, even if I don't have the resources to create workable art for the system.
Blender can do just about anything. Some things it does better than Maya and Max (UVs for one) and other things it does worse (No support for smoothing groups ).
Blender also has a sculpt mode similar to Zbrush and Mudbox but not as fully featured as those. And it can also generate normalmaps, ao maps, yada yada.
It's worth checking out if you don't want to drop money on a modeling program as it's free but if working in the game industry is your goal you might want to use 3DSmax or Maya as they're standards.
EDIT: ALSO, PROGRESS!
I finally got my custom pawn in game and sorta working. I'm now a disembodied camera moving about the map instead of a "player" with weapons and all that jazz.
One step closer! WOO!
LittleBoots on
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
0
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
I prefer Maya, but I'm not an artist, just a programmer who pretends to be one from time to time. I just find the interface more intuitive, and the animation tools are far superior (yes, even to Character Studio). Everyone has their own preference though.
He's saying that UE3 is designed with high detail models in mind and has added complexity because of that. It's not that Unity will make low end stuff look better, it seems to me more of a question of why use three story tall pile driver to open a can of soup, right?
However I still think it's based on the concept that indie productions can't manage to produce quality art assets at the detail level needed to really make UE3 shine, and I think that's a flawed assumption.
I'm not saying they are incapable, I am saying it's very difficult to find modelers capable of doing it. It's not like picking up a blender tutorial and making a sword. People go to school for years to learn how to do the movie quality high poly work (which is what you need to make quality normal maps, unless you, again, draw them by hand).
Here's my point: What's the point of using an off the shelf engine for indie development? To save time. If saving time is your goal, and you plan to keep your game in the realm if sanity in terms of art assets (regular poly counts, only a few texture layers), then UE3 may actually get in your way and cost you time, not save you time.
If you actually plan to, and have the resources to, create the high poly models, the normal and depth maps, and all that, freakin' awesome, UDK is made for you. I just question if it's going to be universally more useful to the average indy than something like Unity or Torque, which are easier to pick up and use and don't have a ton of tools that might just get in the way.
Most of the time it probably won't be, however, I have seen plenty of amateur or up and coming modelers who do fantastic work. At the same time, I think dismissing the entire engine just because it is designed with high poly stuff in mind is a bit short-sighted. The level designer is robust, from what I've been told, there is speedtree and PhysX integration and a fantastic AI system.
I agree with your point in that it's tough for indie shops to produce tons of high-quality high detail art, but I don't agree with extending that one point into a statement about the efficacy of the UDK for indie shops in general, not without spending more time exploring the platform. It has, so far, appeared to be expansive and robust, and until I see more implementation, I'm not really ready to judge it.
He's saying that UE3 is designed with high detail models in mind and has added complexity because of that. It's not that Unity will make low end stuff look better, it seems to me more of a question of why use three story tall pile driver to open a can of soup, right?
However I still think it's based on the concept that indie productions can't manage to produce quality art assets at the detail level needed to really make UE3 shine, and I think that's a flawed assumption.
I'm not saying they are incapable, I am saying it's very difficult to find modelers capable of doing it. It's not like picking up a blender tutorial and making a sword. People go to school for years to learn how to do the movie quality high poly work (which is what you need to make quality normal maps, unless you, again, draw them by hand).
Here's my point: What's the point of using an off the shelf engine for indie development? To save time. If saving time is your goal, and you plan to keep your game in the realm if sanity in terms of art assets (regular poly counts, only a few texture layers), then UE3 may actually get in your way and cost you time, not save you time.
If you actually plan to, and have the resources to, create the high poly models, the normal and depth maps, and all that, freakin' awesome, UDK is made for you. I just question if it's going to be universally more useful to the average indy than something like Unity or Torque, which are easier to pick up and use and don't have a ton of tools that might just get in the way.
The part I'm not getting is the "get in the way" part. The material editor is great; You link your diffuse texture to a material, and bam, textured. You can add speculars, normals, etc... but thats completely optional, and isn't something that you need, or is expected.
Honestly, in terms of art, I'm loving the UDK, except for my problem of not getting my textures to apply fully(Which I assume is something, somehow, on my end, not its fault). Kismet seems like a graet thing, albiet something I don't know much about, and the level editor seems powerful.
Funny enough, this is motivating me to finish work on a different mod, so I can start using the UDK for a new project :P
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited November 2009
As long as one learns the basics of modeling, learning to use a different application will basically be about learning to use a new UI. I'm used to maya but I've had the opportunity to try max out as well and it didn't seem too difficult to get a hang on with some video tutorials at hand.
Will the Visual Studio shell linked here suffice when installing nFringe? I don't have the full Visual Studio package and I couldn't install nFringe even with C++ Express 2008 already installed.
Airan on
0
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited November 2009
Zbrush probably has the strangest and most unintuitive UI I've ever seen. It's a shame.
I've got a blank gametype that I'm trying to build up. I based it from GameInfo to start completely clean, and then I'll look at what UTGame and UTDeathmatch are implementing.
Now to get something other than a disembodied camera in there.
Its not all that hard for a person to learn zbrush. Its weird, and its different, but there's lots of help on the net. If you try using it without a tablet, though, you're doing it wrong. That's why the ui is so goofy.
Remington on
0
OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
Its not all that hard for a person to learn zbrush. Its weird, and its different, but there's lots of help on the net. If you try using it without a tablet, though, you're doing it wrong. That's why the ui is so goofy.
Agreed. Took a class on that program. It's a real beast, and you're really not exploiting it to the fullest unless you have a tablet. It's pretty much a 3D Photoshop, if you can imagine that. I love it. So you need to use something like this or be a high-poly BADASS in Maya to get the most out of Unreal 3. It's 2009. Damn shame for indie developers since it means it's yet another program they have to shell out for. Then again, it's all about what you invest in, I suppose.
Zbrush probably has the strangest and most unintuitive UI I've ever seen. It's a shame.
It's certainly something way, way different than anything else. But once you've gotten used to it, it also provides a workflow not found anywhere else.
Visti on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Its not all that hard for a person to learn zbrush. Its weird, and its different, but there's lots of help on the net. If you try using it without a tablet, though, you're doing it wrong. That's why the ui is so goofy.
Agreed. Took a class on that program. It's a real beast, and you're really not exploiting it to the fullest unless you have a tablet. It's pretty much a 3D Photoshop, if you can imagine that. I love it. So you need to use something like this or be a high-poly BADASS in Maya to get the most out of Unreal 3. It's 2009. Damn shame for indie developers since it means it's yet another program they have to shell out for. Then again, it's all about what you invest in, I suppose.
I just think the UI is really really weird. The tools themselves are pretty straight forward to use, but for instance doing the actual normal map generation was very difficult without having a tutorial on while I went through every step.
I haven't used it much though, because I don't have it, but I'm sure I could learn it given enough time and a lot of tutorial videos.
You guys still looking for programmers to help out? I'm currently enjoying a temporary retirement so I have lots of time on my hands. I don't have any experience working with the Unreal engine but I do have some working with OpenGL, SDL, DirectX and whatnot including a bit of messing around with HLSL and I've got plenty of experience programming in general.
I don't have a job, and I waste much of my time making crap in the Hammer Editor and 3D Studio Max. I'd love to help out, we should probably make a STEAM group so we can discuss what the hell we're doing and all that.
I'm up for any aesthetic jobs, because I'm not much of a coder, but I think I know a guy who might be interested. I'm up for doing model work, texture work, level design, concept art ect. Let's do this people!
Its not all that hard for a person to learn zbrush. Its weird, and its different, but there's lots of help on the net. If you try using it without a tablet, though, you're doing it wrong. That's why the ui is so goofy.
Agreed. Took a class on that program. It's a real beast, and you're really not exploiting it to the fullest unless you have a tablet. It's pretty much a 3D Photoshop, if you can imagine that. I love it. So you need to use something like this or be a high-poly BADASS in Maya to get the most out of Unreal 3. It's 2009. Damn shame for indie developers since it means it's yet another program they have to shell out for. Then again, it's all about what you invest in, I suppose.
I just think the UI is really really weird. The tools themselves are pretty straight forward to use, but for instance doing the actual normal map generation was very difficult without having a tutorial on while I went through every step.
I haven't used it much though, because I don't have it, but I'm sure I could learn it given enough time and a lot of tutorial videos.
Oh, it's definitely a weird UI. I'm still not used to it. In fact, even with a tablet there's plenty of times when I think "why the fuck did they think this was how it should be done?"
Like... hold alt, drag off of your object and then release alt while still dragging equals the zoom tool.
Mine compiles fine but nothing shows up in the game.
It's different from a custom Pawn class, but I have been able to extend UTBot (which is a subclass of AIController) to my own type (FleeMan) and it showed up as an option for the controller class of the spawned object in the Actor Factory action with the ActorFactoryAI type in Kismet. It doesn't spawn anything if I subclass AIController directly, I'm still figuring out why exactly. If you find out let me know.
My short term plan is getting acquainted with the AI enough so I can make an AI that is afraid of you, trying to run away and eventually hide under desks like a puny businessman would in sight of a raptor scorned.
peterdevore on
0
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Its not all that hard for a person to learn zbrush. Its weird, and its different, but there's lots of help on the net. If you try using it without a tablet, though, you're doing it wrong. That's why the ui is so goofy.
Agreed. Took a class on that program. It's a real beast, and you're really not exploiting it to the fullest unless you have a tablet. It's pretty much a 3D Photoshop, if you can imagine that. I love it. So you need to use something like this or be a high-poly BADASS in Maya to get the most out of Unreal 3. It's 2009. Damn shame for indie developers since it means it's yet another program they have to shell out for. Then again, it's all about what you invest in, I suppose.
I just think the UI is really really weird. The tools themselves are pretty straight forward to use, but for instance doing the actual normal map generation was very difficult without having a tutorial on while I went through every step.
I haven't used it much though, because I don't have it, but I'm sure I could learn it given enough time and a lot of tutorial videos.
Oh, it's definitely a weird UI. I'm still not used to it. In fact, even with a tablet there's plenty of times when I think "why the fuck did they think this was how it should be done?"
Like... hold alt, drag off of your object and then release alt while still dragging equals the zoom tool.
Yeah, ok, why can't I just hold another key?
Yeah that's weird. Can you set it up to work with the zoom sliders/scroll wheel on your tablet though, depending on what tablet you have?
I really need to switch to unreal already. Source SDK is alright, but holy shit does it suck compared to unreal.
Zbrush is fairly easy. Just give yourself a month or two and you can easily get something going. I have only used it for a couple hours and I'm making some cool beasts. Making sexy ladies is a little bit harder right now, but one day.
I really need to switch to unreal already. Source SDK is alright, but holy shit does it suck compared to unreal.
Zbrush is fairly easy. Just give yourself a month or two and you can easily get something going. I have only used it for a couple hours and I'm making some cool beasts. Making sexy ladies is a little bit harder right now, but one day.
Being as I have undying love for your work AND bought your book, I think we should collaborate on a beautiful girl game.
Also, success on the camera stuff. I will soon be able to flex full control over the in game camera.
Mine compiles fine but nothing shows up in the game.
It's different from a custom Pawn class, but I have been able to extend UTBot (which is a subclass of AIController) to my own type (FleeMan) and it showed up as an option for the controller class of the spawned object in the Actor Factory action with the ActorFactoryAI type in Kismet. It doesn't spawn anything if I subclass AIController directly, I'm still figuring out why exactly. If you find out let me know.
My short term plan is getting acquainted with the AI enough so I can make an AI that is afraid of you, trying to run away and eventually hide under desks like a puny businessman would in sight of a raptor scorned.
Hey man, you too should add me on Steam. We have a Velociraptor Job Interview Simulator Pro group going for ease of conversation.
Posts
I'm not saying they are incapable, I am saying it's very difficult to find modelers capable of doing it. It's not like picking up a blender tutorial and making a sword. People go to school for years to learn how to do the movie quality high poly work (which is what you need to make quality normal maps, unless you, again, draw them by hand).
Here's my point: What's the point of using an off the shelf engine for indie development? To save time. If saving time is your goal, and you plan to keep your game in the realm if sanity in terms of art assets (regular poly counts, only a few texture layers), then UE3 may actually get in your way and cost you time, not save you time.
If you actually plan to, and have the resources to, create the high poly models, the normal and depth maps, and all that, freakin' awesome, UDK is made for you. I just question if it's going to be universally more useful to the average indy than something like Unity or Torque, which are easier to pick up and use and don't have a ton of tools that might just get in the way.
Yep.
Yes, most likely Maya + ZBrush or Max + ZBrush is what most teams use. You could probably get away with Blender, as it has some high poly functions and normal map generation (I think).
The tool itself has some modeling style tools, but they are in the context of putting a level together out of mostly primitive shapes. You would be hard pressed to create a seriously detailed model using the actual UDK tools.
Blender also has a sculpt mode similar to Zbrush and Mudbox but not as fully featured as those. And it can also generate normalmaps, ao maps, yada yada.
It's worth checking out if you don't want to drop money on a modeling program as it's free but if working in the game industry is your goal you might want to use 3DSmax or Maya as they're standards.
EDIT: ALSO, PROGRESS!
I finally got my custom pawn in game and sorta working. I'm now a disembodied camera moving about the map instead of a "player" with weapons and all that jazz.
One step closer! WOO!
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
Most of the time it probably won't be, however, I have seen plenty of amateur or up and coming modelers who do fantastic work. At the same time, I think dismissing the entire engine just because it is designed with high poly stuff in mind is a bit short-sighted. The level designer is robust, from what I've been told, there is speedtree and PhysX integration and a fantastic AI system.
I agree with your point in that it's tough for indie shops to produce tons of high-quality high detail art, but I don't agree with extending that one point into a statement about the efficacy of the UDK for indie shops in general, not without spending more time exploring the platform. It has, so far, appeared to be expansive and robust, and until I see more implementation, I'm not really ready to judge it.
The part I'm not getting is the "get in the way" part. The material editor is great; You link your diffuse texture to a material, and bam, textured. You can add speculars, normals, etc... but thats completely optional, and isn't something that you need, or is expected.
Honestly, in terms of art, I'm loving the UDK, except for my problem of not getting my textures to apply fully(Which I assume is something, somehow, on my end, not its fault). Kismet seems like a graet thing, albiet something I don't know much about, and the level editor seems powerful.
Funny enough, this is motivating me to finish work on a different mod, so I can start using the UDK for a new project :P
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
Edit: Ho ho ho holy shit, $400 for student versus 495...what a discount.
Now to get something other than a disembodied camera in there.
Agreed. Took a class on that program. It's a real beast, and you're really not exploiting it to the fullest unless you have a tablet. It's pretty much a 3D Photoshop, if you can imagine that. I love it. So you need to use something like this or be a high-poly BADASS in Maya to get the most out of Unreal 3. It's 2009. Damn shame for indie developers since it means it's yet another program they have to shell out for. Then again, it's all about what you invest in, I suppose.
It's certainly something way, way different than anything else. But once you've gotten used to it, it also provides a workflow not found anywhere else.
I just think the UI is really really weird. The tools themselves are pretty straight forward to use, but for instance doing the actual normal map generation was very difficult without having a tutorial on while I went through every step.
I haven't used it much though, because I don't have it, but I'm sure I could learn it given enough time and a lot of tutorial videos.
Mine compiles fine but nothing shows up in the game.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
I'm up for any aesthetic jobs, because I'm not much of a coder, but I think I know a guy who might be interested. I'm up for doing model work, texture work, level design, concept art ect. Let's do this people!
Oh, it's definitely a weird UI. I'm still not used to it. In fact, even with a tablet there's plenty of times when I think "why the fuck did they think this was how it should be done?"
Like... hold alt, drag off of your object and then release alt while still dragging equals the zoom tool.
Yeah, ok, why can't I just hold another key?
I just made it so I was getting first and third person view at the same time.
That was weird.
EDIT: Also, I'm stuck stuck stuck =(
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
It's different from a custom Pawn class, but I have been able to extend UTBot (which is a subclass of AIController) to my own type (FleeMan) and it showed up as an option for the controller class of the spawned object in the Actor Factory action with the ActorFactoryAI type in Kismet. It doesn't spawn anything if I subclass AIController directly, I'm still figuring out why exactly. If you find out let me know.
My short term plan is getting acquainted with the AI enough so I can make an AI that is afraid of you, trying to run away and eventually hide under desks like a puny businessman would in sight of a raptor scorned.
Yeah that's weird. Can you set it up to work with the zoom sliders/scroll wheel on your tablet though, depending on what tablet you have?
Zbrush is fairly easy. Just give yourself a month or two and you can easily get something going. I have only used it for a couple hours and I'm making some cool beasts. Making sexy ladies is a little bit harder right now, but one day.
Would you say the difference between the two is
...
unreal?
Being as I have undying love for your work AND bought your book, I think we should collaborate on a beautiful girl game.
Also, success on the camera stuff. I will soon be able to flex full control over the in game camera.
Hey man, you too should add me on Steam. We have a Velociraptor Job Interview Simulator Pro group going for ease of conversation.
You're already on my Steam friends list.
I need more computer.
I CAN PLACE IT IN THE MAP NOW
OMG OMG OMG
It only took 2 days and it currently just sits there but I'm excited.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.