But. Okay I have to micro my guardians to shoot at the chaos lord that cannot be knocked down or slowed but still has good ranged damage. Or the cultists that are faster than my guardians. Uh, right.
I'll make sure I micro them to shoot harder or something?
Ignoring fleet of foot, guardians have 5.5 speed whilst heretics has 5.
I dunno but I know that my guardians got chased down. Must have been the melee charge or something.
Also I don't get how the gant slow ability bounces off the warboss. It slows him down and lets you shoot him more.
Doing like 1% of his life per second for another few seconds isn't exactly helpful. I don't play Nids much currently, but previously you needed AG Warriors to have a chance at killing him.
Edit: Also killing half of my guardian squad while he caps a point is not negligible.
So, you're complaining that your cheapest unit cannot solo kill / cause to flee an offense type hero? I don't understand the complaint. Perhaps its because I've already internalized that you need multiple upgraded squads to beat these heroes.
When I have a single heretic squad and I see an Offense hero capping a point, I either immediately flee without even trying to fight, or bring reinforcements while hovering at the edge of LOS. If I have nade upgrade, I'll knock them down if they aren't immune, but I don't try to fucking solo fight them.
Yeah, I've tried to kite around a chaos lord with two guardian squads, staying out of melee. He had both my squads down below half and me taking guardian casualties before I even had him near half. That storm bolter is no joke.
Actually, the only people are well off against heroes like the Hive Tyrant and Chaos Lord are tyranids. Nothing in the game is immune to the termagant slowing effect.
However, so many more things are immune to say, the shoota boy suppression ability. I've always thought that commanders immune to suppression and knockdown were really dumb ideas. As a mek player it's always been a special hell trying to deal with the tyrant when nearly all of your wargear is 100% useless, and your race's tier 1 anti melee counter simply doesn't work. Even then I could defeat him if he played worse than I and I dog-piled him with sluggas at the right time. Jumping the lord with melee simply heals him to full!
There is nothing reasonable about being immune to nearly every mechanic in the game.
edit:
No, I am sorry. You are completely wrong about the war boss. The standard double termagant build completely trivializes him. You have never needed AG warriors and using them like that would probably be a bad idea.
edit2: Also, he's not arguing that at all. He, and other players in this thread, are wondering why their anti-melee troops such as shotgun scouts, heavy bolters, guardians, heretics and shootas cannot even begin to counter this guy.
Uh if he's a melee hero that can't be killing in melee I would fucking hope shooting at him would be a viable strategy. You know, viable enough that my so-called overpowered guardians wouldn't get decimated? I guess I just have this idea of "balance" in my head where if I try to shoot ranged units with my farseer or warlock they get destroyed instead of, you know, the dedicated ranged unit. Crazy me, playing my scrub ranged-based armies that can't chase people into their bases while doing 130% damage.
edit: Also loving the double standard. "No, my ranged troops that do more damage and snare are completely useless against this guy but your overpowered units should make quick work of him!" But seriously Tarranon's thing.
And what about Tarranon's scenario? Since you don't seem to have an answer to that one.
Goomba on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
The reason they have no answer is that as he stands the chaos lord is absolutely absurd. He should have no ranged attack, like the hive tyrant, unless you upgrade it. There is zero reason for him to have a 14 dps stormbolter while running around like a lunatic.
The counters to him all require absurd amounts of time and ridiculously good micro, while all the chaos player has to do is right click and go for pizza. Anything that requires such an unequal investment of micro is a bad idea.
From my experience, walkers mess up a lord pretty good. Sure it sucks you gotta get to T2 asap but he does have counters.
Bad argument. He can make you wait to long to get into T2 that your walker won't help as his upgraded, leveled squads just flatten your face in at every turn.
From my experience, walkers mess up a lord pretty good. Sure it sucks you gotta get to T2 asap but he does have counters.
In my experience,
-he can beat the deff dred in melee with ease if he has the two handed maul. Even without it he can pretty much walk past the deff dred. It's single target damage feels pathetic now that it has AoE cleave attack.
-the bloodcrusher can beat a fully upgraded deff dred without going below half health, and the deff dred costs about 50% more resources.
The other walkers might be able to handle it, but I'm not getting much leverage from my end.
I'd say that I miss morale but Relic started phasing out morale as a mechanic for new races and units about two expansion packs in. Why they would go to the effort of making a mechanic and balancing races around it and then make new units and races all but immune to it is just baffling to me. Granted I don't think most of chaos's units are suppression immune but still.
Edit: necrons in DoW 1 were great because Eldar and tau had pretty good counters to them. Everyone else was fucked. And then they nerfed necrons so hard they were useless.
Goomba on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Just wait til they add Necrons.
Entire army immune to slowing, suppression, and knockback, and gets back up on their own.
/evil laugh
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Alfred J. Kwakis it because you were insultedwhen I insulted your hair?Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
Ha, whoever said it would take at least 2 weeks for the negative backslash to kick in was dead wrong.
If the chaos lord is dumb enough (AKA me) to get the energy shield and even dumber to use it you can kill him with one banshee squad and one guardian squad.
Through the campaign I get a couple of items a stage, most are useless unless I play as a corrupted squad. Certain weapon types never show up, so the characters built around them are just plain ol' fucked. There's no optional side stage to farm and, ironically, the best stage for weapons is the final one. I ended my first run through using most of my level 20 weapons cause I simply never found anything better. Oh, and more terminator suits? really guys? there's only 4 squads that can use em, one of which actually performs worse in said armor. I'd trade all 5 suits for one lvl 30 heavy bolter or storm bolter.
Oh, and the end stage is just...stupid.
Make an entire game based on micro-managing a small number of squads. Then make a level where you get to use tanks instead, followed by a giant escort quest with infinitely respawning badguys and super mass combat. Then finish it with a giant boss that has over 10,000% more hp than all your squads combined (Note: actual math may actually be worse). Headache ensues.
Campaign needs optional side missions of the non-scripted kind. Atm it's so short the corruption system never really comes into play and you only see a small % of the xpac loot.
Ha, whoever said it would take at least 2 weeks for the negative backslash to kick in was dead wrong.
They weren't expecting Goomba back so soon.
I was tricked by the facade of balance and tank corpses.
No but it's fun and way more balanced that my last trip, just some things are dumb and are probably gonna get fixed at lightning speed. I mean you guys added Wraithguard so I have to trust you for at least a month.
Goomba on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I didn't say it was a good argument, just he's not faceroll like assault termis are.
Wait, you're saying SM make it to T3?
Tarranon on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
No but it's fun and way more balanced that my last trip, just some things are dumb and are probably gonna get fixed at lightning speed. I mean you guys added Wraithguard so I have to trust you for at least a month.
Atm it's so short the corruption system never really comes into play
It's long enough for me to reach either end of the Corruption scale three times (each way, so Corrupt, Pure, Corrupt, Pure, Corrupt, Pure).
It kinda felt rushed to me. I mean, there were never any major choices between the two that couldn't be repaired quickly. As a pure player I was never pressed into a situation where consequences to messing up couldn't be undone in a mission or two. Items that undo/enhance corruption made up the bulk of the stuff I got (white items aside) so playing pure corruption or purity seems pretty straight forward. I'd have like to seen the gap between corrupt and pure spread out some, make it harder to live on the extremes of the two sides and subsequently make the rewards and the playstyles different.
this is probably useless to 90% of the players out there but doom+guide+3guardians will sort out a chaos lord rather nicely. that's until he gets 2 grenade upgraded heretic squads. *siiiiiiigh*
Having the firepower equivalent to a single tac model isn't exactly a very strong ranged attack, but it's super strange that they'd give chaos lord of all melee heroes the strongest of ranged attacks. As already stated, if there's someone who shouldn't have one, or a weak one, it's him. As it is right now he doesn't really have any weaknesses.
You can't ignore him as effectively as you can warboss, and he'll stomp shit in melee just the same.
Honestly, I think that a lot of the problem with the game's balance is that some of the fundamental game design choices are just really bad.
Like, for example, there is pretty much no point in the retreat button even existing if you're in combat with more than one melee unit. It might as well be a button that makes the unit explode. Unit reactions are sluggish because half of what they do is decided for you by their little AIs.
Honestly, I think that a lot of the problem with the game's balance is that some of the fundamental game design choices are just really bad.
Like, for example, there is pretty much no point in the retreat button even existing if you're in combat with more than one melee unit. It might as well be a button that makes the unit explode. Unit reactions are sluggish because half of what they do is decided for you by their little AIs.
The best is when you retreat and almost get away but the spore mi- I mean heretic explodes killing your squad that was otherwise home-free.
Yeah, I've tried to kite around a chaos lord with two guardian squads, staying out of melee. He had both my squads down below half and me taking guardian casualties before I even had him near half. That storm bolter is no joke.
Actually, the only people are well off against heroes like the Hive Tyrant and Chaos Lord are tyranids. Nothing in the game is immune to the termagant slowing effect.
However, so many more things are immune to say, the shoota boy suppression ability. I've always thought that commanders immune to suppression and knockdown were really dumb ideas. As a mek player it's always been a special hell trying to deal with the tyrant when nearly all of your wargear is 100% useless, and your race's tier 1 anti melee counter simply doesn't work. Even then I could defeat him if he played worse than I and I dog-piled him with sluggas at the right time. Jumping the lord with melee simply heals him to full!
Commanders immune to knockdown are the best thing. Now suppression, I'll agree with, but shotgun scouts are terrible enough as is. Well, my ideal solution would be diminishing returns, but lacking that, complete immunity is better than being chain stunlocked from 100% to 0%.
edit:
No, I am sorry. You are completely wrong about the war boss. The standard double termagant build completely trivializes him. You have never needed AG warriors and using them like that would probably be a bad idea.
Back when I mained nids (which was a while ago) this wasn't true, and they didn't have their term slow. Double terms was a terrible start build, and warriors were the key component to killing heroes from T1-T3.
Uh if he's a melee hero that can't be killing in melee I would fucking hope shooting at him would be a viable strategy. You know, viable enough that my so-called overpowered guardians wouldn't get decimated? I guess I just have this idea of "balance" in my head where if I try to shoot ranged units with my farseer or warlock they get destroyed instead of, you know, the dedicated ranged unit. Crazy me, playing my scrub ranged-based armies that can't chase people into their bases while doing 130% damage.
edit: Also loving the double standard. "No, my ranged troops that do more damage and snare are completely useless against this guy but your overpowered units should make quick work of him!" But seriously Tarranon's thing.
Abilities should do the same damage as ranged attacks,
no knockdowns or stuns should work on retreat ever,
retreat should pick up speed faster and higher (right now it just facilitates "catching" units half a map away which was not the designers intent),
and units should break squad AI when you hit the button effectively making them every man for himself.
It's the worst thing ever when some of the guys wait up for some poor sod in the back, also they could implement that any remaining squad members get teleported to the base like five to ten seconds after the first unit has reached home. That would remove all problems with units getting stuck more or less.
Possibly they could also make it so the melee damage gets closer to ranged damage the longer you've retreated to get rid of stuff like banshees with stacked speed buffs chasing you all across the map. Like old AG hormagaunts did, and as I'm sure the FC can now with alacrity and librarian.
Something like this would fix retreat while still letting melee units "get rewarded" for closing in, which is what the designers wanted in the first place. They've just failed to remove all the ways their system can be abused.
Also i haven't met subjugate yet but it sounds completely retarded. Like getting a free squad kill at the end of every engagement retarded.
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
Yeah, this thread was actually doing pretty good until Goomba stumbled back into it.
Dark_Side on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
TBH my problem with the chaos lord is that in a vacuum he's ridiculous, but the general weakness of Chaos t1 is masking him. When chaos t1 gets buffed (which I'm pretty sure it will), he will suddenly spring out a lot more - especially in comparison to the plague marine. In higher tiers he's much less of a problem. He just needs a good kick in the nuts early on. I'd be happy just with his stormbolter damage getting the crap kicked out of it when he moves, or removing it and giving him a nifty banana to hold in his off hand.
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
1. Er, yes? I thought you were saying they didn't have that. You weren't very clear. 2. Terms do more damage than guardians, so you're full of it when you say that guardians should be able to effectively kite a chaos lord. That or terms absolutely devastate warbosses. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
And you didn't really answer Tarranon's problem, you just went off the hyperbole deep end. I figured you'd at least listen to Shephard. His problem was that his entire army attacked the chaos lord that walked up to a heavy bolter (it was firing at him in case you missed this, which I'm assuming you did), and still had enough health to kill more of the squad and more of his assault marines.
They have buffed termagants time and time again. They are probably the best unit for anti-melee now, if you ask me, maybe next to heretics against anything but commanders. They are reliable, damaging, and fast. They're pretty tricky to finish off too.
However, termagants are besides the point.
The point was that you were comparing the Warboss against Chaos Lord, if I am correct? In that you have to massively outplay him with either chaos or tyranids.
Lets look at the different things you can do to fight the Warboss:
-Suppress him instantly with havocs
-Use grenade knock back on him
-Use the Chaos Lord's Kill the Weak! to knock him back, then laugh when he tries to stomp you back.
-Plague Lord's suppression armor, bile spewer, or his mucus grenade also work, killing all boys around him too..
-Kite him
-Maybe some sorcerer shit here? Don't know him too well...
All of these will keep the boss out of combat for probably 4-5 additional seconds. Termagant slow lasts about 7 I want to say.
What can you do against the chaos lord? A hero with more health, a better ranged attack, better melee damage, better melee special ability (It functions exactly like the warboss's stomp, but has a healing component), and of course, complete immunity to suppression and knockback.
For chaos we have...
-kite him
-plague champion's bile spewer.
for nids we have...
-termagant slow
-kite him
Hot damn! Well, at least there's a counter, right? Nothing like spending your entire army to kite a hero in tier 1!
I hope you can understand my frustration with the Chaos Lord when he is simply a better version of the Warboss in every way imaginable. Doesn't seem very balanced to me. We'll also ignore than the chaos army has far, far better ways of dealing with suppression teams than a warboss led ork army.
Although this post might make a better arguement to "buff warboss" than "nerf chaos lord", I still think that the idea behind a knockback and suppression immune hero is really stupid with the game built as it is now. The Chaos Lord is just an exceptional hero in addition to those two perks.
edit: I am a little curious about this statement:
"Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
What in chaos under preforms in your opinion? I've been nothing but impressed with individual strength of each unit.
The plague champion with his 20 power pseudo-flamer is close to a hard counter for the lord, and almost all other melee too. If you place the slow ability just in front of the lord and also flame him, he slows to a crawl the same speed as the term snare, and it lasts a lot longer. He can either retreat out of it or be shot to pieces.
So far Chaos seems like space marines with all their weaknesses solved.
Scouts being very ineffective against melee turns into very high member, cheap reinforce, suicide explosion squad that gets the weapon upgrade with the longest range (indirect too) in tier one. Tacs only getting one member with the upgraded weapon and the sergeant stuck standing around with a melee weapon while the rest of them shoot becomes the entire squad getting improved weapons, including the sergeant no matter whether you pick ranged or melee.
Apologies if this has been answered before, but how balanced is multiplayer right now? Say, on a scale from 1-10 where 1 is how DoW2 was before any patches and 10 is Starcraft.
Vic on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
Yeah, this thread was actually doing pretty good until Goomba stumbled back into it.
I hate the fact that this is true.
The bitchfest is starting to ring untrue, because every army has some seriously overpowered shit right now.
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
Yeah, this thread was actually doing pretty good until Goomba stumbled back into it.
I hate the fact that this is true.
The bitchfest is starting to ring untrue, because every army has some seriously overpowered shit right now.
Which, you know, might just be game design.
Eh, Relic has struggled with the balance from the get go with DOW2, so it's ok to complain about units to be sure, some people just take it a little far. At least we're not back in the days of the Ravener and its infinite tunnels of doom.
It's actually kind of interesting to watch how the multiplayer game changes over time. Just yesterday assault terminators were totally overpowered, today it's the chaos lord, even though when the game first dropped I remember a few comments wondering if he was worth much at all. It's fun to watch how the tactics change over time.
junkie, are you implying you mained nids until 1.5, at which point you couldn't successfully win with them while jerking off at the same time? I just need to be sure before I can bring out some okay ad hominems.
1. Havocs do 2. I was talking about you talking about how terms did nothing to the warboss.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
Yeah, this thread was actually doing pretty good until Goomba stumbled back into it.
I hate the fact that this is true.
The bitchfest is starting to ring untrue, because every army has some seriously overpowered shit right now.
Which, you know, might just be game design.
Eh, Relic has struggled with the balance from the get go with DOW2, so it's ok to complain about units to be sure, some people just take it a little far. At least we're not back in the days of the Ravener and its infinite tunnels of doom.
It's actually kind of interesting to watch how the multiplayer game changes over time. Just yesterday assault terminators were totally overpowered, today it's the chaos lord, even though when the game first dropped I remember a few comments wondering if he was worth much at all. It's fun to watch how the tactics change over time.
Ass. terms are still completely silly, we've just reached consensus about them and moved on to other bullshit.
So far I've heard the overpowered stuff being lightning claws on anything, wraithguard, chaos lord, heretics, masses of tzeetch CSM (it's the new tac blob!), bloodcrushers being the cheapest pseudo-walker/vehicle and destroying everything in their path, librarian recalling almost dead ass. terms, chaos sorcerer warp rift plus heretics' detonation doing full damage to retreating units, and probably other stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.
Edit: Tarranon, I think he might have been one of the bastard warrior spammers. I played lictor through most of that era, using *gaunts backed up with one or two of the appropriate synapse'd warriors and I managed to kill lots of shit.
lightning claws are indeed absolutely insane, moreso when you teleport on to vehicles and complete fuck up their pathing so that they can't get away from you. But at the very, very, very least it's way back in t3, and with SM still requiring their huge power investments early on to stay competitive, you don't...or at least I don't see very much fast teching.
Posts
Doing like 1% of his life per second for another few seconds isn't exactly helpful. I don't play Nids much currently, but previously you needed AG Warriors to have a chance at killing him.
So, you're complaining that your cheapest unit cannot solo kill / cause to flee an offense type hero? I don't understand the complaint. Perhaps its because I've already internalized that you need multiple upgraded squads to beat these heroes.
When I have a single heretic squad and I see an Offense hero capping a point, I either immediately flee without even trying to fight, or bring reinforcements while hovering at the edge of LOS. If I have nade upgrade, I'll knock them down if they aren't immune, but I don't try to fucking solo fight them.
Actually, the only people are well off against heroes like the Hive Tyrant and Chaos Lord are tyranids. Nothing in the game is immune to the termagant slowing effect.
However, so many more things are immune to say, the shoota boy suppression ability. I've always thought that commanders immune to suppression and knockdown were really dumb ideas. As a mek player it's always been a special hell trying to deal with the tyrant when nearly all of your wargear is 100% useless, and your race's tier 1 anti melee counter simply doesn't work. Even then I could defeat him if he played worse than I and I dog-piled him with sluggas at the right time. Jumping the lord with melee simply heals him to full!
There is nothing reasonable about being immune to nearly every mechanic in the game.
edit:
No, I am sorry. You are completely wrong about the war boss. The standard double termagant build completely trivializes him. You have never needed AG warriors and using them like that would probably be a bad idea.
edit2: Also, he's not arguing that at all. He, and other players in this thread, are wondering why their anti-melee troops such as shotgun scouts, heavy bolters, guardians, heretics and shootas cannot even begin to counter this guy.
edit: Also loving the double standard. "No, my ranged troops that do more damage and snare are completely useless against this guy but your overpowered units should make quick work of him!" But seriously Tarranon's thing.
And what about Tarranon's scenario? Since you don't seem to have an answer to that one.
The counters to him all require absurd amounts of time and ridiculously good micro, while all the chaos player has to do is right click and go for pizza. Anything that requires such an unequal investment of micro is a bad idea.
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Bad argument. He can make you wait to long to get into T2 that your walker won't help as his upgraded, leveled squads just flatten your face in at every turn.
In my experience,
-he can beat the deff dred in melee with ease if he has the two handed maul. Even without it he can pretty much walk past the deff dred. It's single target damage feels pathetic now that it has AoE cleave attack.
-the bloodcrusher can beat a fully upgraded deff dred without going below half health, and the deff dred costs about 50% more resources.
The other walkers might be able to handle it, but I'm not getting much leverage from my end.
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Edit: necrons in DoW 1 were great because Eldar and tau had pretty good counters to them. Everyone else was fucked. And then they nerfed necrons so hard they were useless.
Entire army immune to slowing, suppression, and knockback, and gets back up on their own.
/evil laugh
Crappy balance is crappy balance whether it's assault termies or chaos lords.
tAlfred J. Kwak: In my defence I have been pretty negative about the game the whole time!
They weren't expecting Goomba back so soon.
Through the campaign I get a couple of items a stage, most are useless unless I play as a corrupted squad. Certain weapon types never show up, so the characters built around them are just plain ol' fucked. There's no optional side stage to farm and, ironically, the best stage for weapons is the final one. I ended my first run through using most of my level 20 weapons cause I simply never found anything better. Oh, and more terminator suits? really guys? there's only 4 squads that can use em, one of which actually performs worse in said armor. I'd trade all 5 suits for one lvl 30 heavy bolter or storm bolter.
Oh, and the end stage is just...stupid.
Campaign needs optional side missions of the non-scripted kind. Atm it's so short the corruption system never really comes into play and you only see a small % of the xpac loot.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
No but it's fun and way more balanced that my last trip, just some things are dumb and are probably gonna get fixed at lightning speed. I mean you guys added Wraithguard so I have to trust you for at least a month.
Wait, you're saying SM make it to T3?
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This is just some straight up romance right here
It kinda felt rushed to me. I mean, there were never any major choices between the two that couldn't be repaired quickly. As a pure player I was never pressed into a situation where consequences to messing up couldn't be undone in a mission or two. Items that undo/enhance corruption made up the bulk of the stuff I got (white items aside) so playing pure corruption or purity seems pretty straight forward. I'd have like to seen the gap between corrupt and pure spread out some, make it harder to live on the extremes of the two sides and subsequently make the rewards and the playstyles different.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
You can't ignore him as effectively as you can warboss, and he'll stomp shit in melee just the same.
Like, for example, there is pretty much no point in the retreat button even existing if you're in combat with more than one melee unit. It might as well be a button that makes the unit explode. Unit reactions are sluggish because half of what they do is decided for you by their little AIs.
Commanders immune to knockdown are the best thing. Now suppression, I'll agree with, but shotgun scouts are terrible enough as is. Well, my ideal solution would be diminishing returns, but lacking that, complete immunity is better than being chain stunlocked from 100% to 0%.
Back when I mained nids (which was a while ago) this wasn't true, and they didn't have their term slow. Double terms was a terrible start build, and warriors were the key component to killing heroes from T1-T3.
Neither heretics or CSM snare.
3. Still haven't touched on Tarranon's issue.
no knockdowns or stuns should work on retreat ever,
retreat should pick up speed faster and higher (right now it just facilitates "catching" units half a map away which was not the designers intent),
and units should break squad AI when you hit the button effectively making them every man for himself.
It's the worst thing ever when some of the guys wait up for some poor sod in the back, also they could implement that any remaining squad members get teleported to the base like five to ten seconds after the first unit has reached home. That would remove all problems with units getting stuck more or less.
Possibly they could also make it so the melee damage gets closer to ranged damage the longer you've retreated to get rid of stuff like banshees with stacked speed buffs chasing you all across the map. Like old AG hormagaunts did, and as I'm sure the FC can now with alacrity and librarian.
Something like this would fix retreat while still letting melee units "get rewarded" for closing in, which is what the designers wanted in the first place. They've just failed to remove all the ways their system can be abused.
Also i haven't met subjugate yet but it sounds completely retarded. Like getting a free squad kill at the end of every engagement retarded.
1. Like every other weapons squad, inc. shuriken cannons?
2. They do next to no damage, slow or not. I haven't had a lot of time to look at them in-depth though.
The "If they are good, they will do other stuff while you hyper micro?" Well, then you have a shitty T1 experience, because you are fighting a good player using their best hero. I've not had any major problems against Chaos Lords, and I fight other Chaos like 50% of the time. If I do, I'll come bitch about it here first thing.
Honestly, this thread reminds me of other DOW2 threads:
Goomba + a couple others: "Unit X is OP like AC-130's against hunter gatherers."
Me: "Yeah, it should be tuned down a little. Though there are a couple strategies to help mitigate it. But if it gets tuned, which it should, they should also look at the under performing aspects of that army too."
Goomba: "Yeah, but that unit is like nuclear bombs against civilian babies. Also buff Eldar*."
Me: ...
* My 2v2 strategy is solely to hold enough resources to let my Eldar partner win the game with his hyper damage units. I've had more kills than him one game out of 15.**
** This is like 80% true.
Yeah, this thread was actually doing pretty good until Goomba stumbled back into it.
TBH my problem with the chaos lord is that in a vacuum he's ridiculous, but the general weakness of Chaos t1 is masking him. When chaos t1 gets buffed (which I'm pretty sure it will), he will suddenly spring out a lot more - especially in comparison to the plague marine. In higher tiers he's much less of a problem. He just needs a good kick in the nuts early on. I'd be happy just with his stormbolter damage getting the crap kicked out of it when he moves, or removing it and giving him a nifty banana to hold in his off hand.
And you didn't really answer Tarranon's problem, you just went off the hyperbole deep end. I figured you'd at least listen to Shephard. His problem was that his entire army attacked the chaos lord that walked up to a heavy bolter (it was firing at him in case you missed this, which I'm assuming you did), and still had enough health to kill more of the squad and more of his assault marines.
However, termagants are besides the point.
The point was that you were comparing the Warboss against Chaos Lord, if I am correct? In that you have to massively outplay him with either chaos or tyranids.
Lets look at the different things you can do to fight the Warboss:
-Suppress him instantly with havocs
-Use grenade knock back on him
-Use the Chaos Lord's Kill the Weak! to knock him back, then laugh when he tries to stomp you back.
-Plague Lord's suppression armor, bile spewer, or his mucus grenade also work, killing all boys around him too..
-Kite him
-Maybe some sorcerer shit here? Don't know him too well...
For nids, we have..
-Barbed strangler
-Termagant slow
-Plethora of commander abilities (Tyrant roar, Ravener mines, supression claws, flesh hooks, etc..)
-Ravener jump attack
-Kite him
All of these will keep the boss out of combat for probably 4-5 additional seconds. Termagant slow lasts about 7 I want to say.
What can you do against the chaos lord? A hero with more health, a better ranged attack, better melee damage, better melee special ability (It functions exactly like the warboss's stomp, but has a healing component), and of course, complete immunity to suppression and knockback.
For chaos we have...
-kite him
-plague champion's bile spewer.
for nids we have...
-termagant slow
-kite him
Hot damn! Well, at least there's a counter, right? Nothing like spending your entire army to kite a hero in tier 1!
I hope you can understand my frustration with the Chaos Lord when he is simply a better version of the Warboss in every way imaginable. Doesn't seem very balanced to me. We'll also ignore than the chaos army has far, far better ways of dealing with suppression teams than a warboss led ork army.
Although this post might make a better arguement to "buff warboss" than "nerf chaos lord", I still think that the idea behind a knockback and suppression immune hero is really stupid with the game built as it is now. The Chaos Lord is just an exceptional hero in addition to those two perks.
edit: I am a little curious about this statement:
What in chaos under preforms in your opinion? I've been nothing but impressed with individual strength of each unit.
So far Chaos seems like space marines with all their weaknesses solved.
Scouts being very ineffective against melee turns into very high member, cheap reinforce, suicide explosion squad that gets the weapon upgrade with the longest range (indirect too) in tier one. Tacs only getting one member with the upgraded weapon and the sergeant stuck standing around with a melee weapon while the rest of them shoot becomes the entire squad getting improved weapons, including the sergeant no matter whether you pick ranged or melee.
I hate the fact that this is true.
The bitchfest is starting to ring untrue, because every army has some seriously overpowered shit right now.
Which, you know, might just be game design.
Eh, Relic has struggled with the balance from the get go with DOW2, so it's ok to complain about units to be sure, some people just take it a little far. At least we're not back in the days of the Ravener and its infinite tunnels of doom.
It's actually kind of interesting to watch how the multiplayer game changes over time. Just yesterday assault terminators were totally overpowered, today it's the chaos lord, even though when the game first dropped I remember a few comments wondering if he was worth much at all. It's fun to watch how the tactics change over time.
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Ass. terms are still completely silly, we've just reached consensus about them and moved on to other bullshit.
So far I've heard the overpowered stuff being lightning claws on anything, wraithguard, chaos lord, heretics, masses of tzeetch CSM (it's the new tac blob!), bloodcrushers being the cheapest pseudo-walker/vehicle and destroying everything in their path, librarian recalling almost dead ass. terms, chaos sorcerer warp rift plus heretics' detonation doing full damage to retreating units, and probably other stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.
Edit: Tarranon, I think he might have been one of the bastard warrior spammers. I played lictor through most of that era, using *gaunts backed up with one or two of the appropriate synapse'd warriors and I managed to kill lots of shit.
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