He used Ony25 as an example. Stop being deliberately thick.
I'm not. You guys are being assholes.
He's saying that a 10 man guild that, perhaps, PUGs members for 25 man runs isn't a real raiding guild because said half-guild 25 runs might involve .... WAITING. OMG!!!
shryke on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
They are still a raiding guild. They raid 10mans, however. The 25mans can not be considered guild runs because they are not. It is a PuG run that the guild is participating it.
So why don't you quit with the personal attacks, and list your raid schedule in hours per day, and how much of that you spend raiding.
You're the one that qq'd about the multiple factors that prevent guilds from raiding. I simply countered that most raiding guilds have things in effect to prevent said factors.
I raid with our main progression raid on Wednesday nights for 4 hours, I spend about an hour everyday doing the daily heroic and Argent Tournament dailies for seals to buy mounts, time permitting. I carry 15credit hours, have a 30hr/week job, and train on the weekends with my National Guard Unit for deployment to Afghanistan in February. If school or my training interfere with raids, I don't raid. If I have homework, I usually don't attend drake runs for the week.
He used Ony25 as an example. Stop being deliberately thick.
I'm not. You guys are being assholes.
He's saying that a 10 man guild that, perhaps, PUGs members for 25 man runs isn't a real raiding guild because said half-guild 25 runs might involve .... WAITING. OMG!!!
I never said that at all. I countered your example of waiting for members to attend an Ony 25 raid. At no point in your post did you mention that you are a 10 man guild attempting to PUG 25 man raids. You simple said that you spend time during your slotted raid time waiting to reach 25 people. If you had mentioned that you were a 10 man guild, I probably wouldn't have said what I said to you. All that aside, if you are a 10 man guild doing 25 mans, you are not a 10 man guild. If I joined your guild for 10 man content and instead spent my time waiting for 15 PUGs for a 25 man raid, I would quit.
I said "Even raiders can have downtime and time to fill with gathering".
You said "If you have downtime you are not a real raiding guild".
And I've provided a situation where a raiding guild would involve sitting around waiting.
Apparently though, only those guilds that have 25 members ready to go at exactly go time are real raiding guilds now? Please.
They are still a raiding guild. They raid 10mans, however. The 25mans can not be considered guild runs because they are not. It is a PuG run that the guild is participating it.
Exactly. So someone who RAIDS in a RAIDING GUILD might end up with time on their hands to gather shit.
You gave waiting for all 25 man raid examples without mentioning that you were a 10 man guild, anywhere. You are being intentionally deceitful and dense to attempt to elicit sympathy for the fact that you are a 10 man raiding guild that spends raid time waiting for PUGs for 25 man raids.
Bikkstah on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Of course someone who raids in a raiding guild has time on their hands to gather shit. When I was a raider I didn't raid all the time. Sometimes I'd log onto my herbalism alt and do some herbing.
I didn't do it during raid time though, because I was raiding at that time. In any case, a 10man guild that occasionally pugs 25mans is hardly criteria for judging them to need to min-max professions. a 25man raid guild doing difficult content is a time where that should be mandatory, and a guild like that should not have any downtime at all during raid hours.
You gave waiting for all 25 man raid examples without mentioning that you were a 10 man guild, anywhere. You are being intentionally deceitful and dense to attempt to elicit sympathy for the fact that you are a 10 man raiding guild that spends raid time waiting for PUGs for 25 man raids.
"intentionally deceitful"?? What the fuck is wrong with you?
I gave some examples. You then decided to pull some elitist bullshit with "You aren't a REAL raider". I was just pointing out what a dick you were being for saying it.
And now you've gone on to prove you are even MORE of a dick then I thought. Kudos.
If you don't have 25 people ready to go on a previously scheduled mostly-fixed time of the day/day of week then, yeah... I'd say you're not in a 25 man raiding guild, you're in a guild that raids 25 mans when they have the people.
I know realm first's, yogg 0, and enough glory mounts that my glory mount rides one too probably marks me as hardcore, but I can't say I am. My last three raid weeks have been one day long, and they've been three days at most for a while now. We were topping at 4 days in Ulduar and will probably do no more in Icecrown - I'm actually bored with how little we raid, I have a life, but not enough of one to fill the holes. We fuck around to the point that we get yelled at for stupid shit, and nobody's going to shove bamboo splinters up your asshole for standing in fire unless you're being chronically braindead.
Just to draw a stark comparison to Bikk's guild: We usually go with the best we can do with what's online at raid start, nobody gets gkicked for a week of noshows (though it might impact your chances of getting a first round invite later). The GM/raid leader logs in at 7, starts handing out everybody's 4 free flasks per raid day at 7:30, invites at 7:45, raid from 8-12, then daily heroic, a half hour of random crap, then he afk's with a huge number of fish feasts queued up and goes to bed by about 1:30-2 at the latest. 200g per day repairs, BOE's, pattern's we've already gotten once, and crafting mats that nobody's on the wait list for go to the AH to cover our freebies.
Most of our main players are online for less than 2 hours outside of a raid. No waiting around, no slack time, no dicking around. We get on, GM invites everybody rank 1-3, invites rank 4 if we're not full, and we figures from there. The only time we actually had to wait around was when both of our val'anyr's and our other holy pally all managed to get themselves in the hospital and/or arrested on the same night and we didn't know what the fuck we were going to do for healing. And hell, that was a 10 man night.
Once again, you gave all your examples in the form of waiting for 25 people to raid. You did not mention you were a 10 man only guild. I think it's safe to say that anyone is going to assume that if you're saying that you're waiting for the last 2 or 3 people to fill in your 25 man raid, that you are a 25 man raiding guild. I think it's quite abnormal to PUG 15 people for a GUILD raid during GUILD RAID TIME.
It's not elitist to say that if you spend your slotted raid time NOT raiding, that you are not a raiding guild. If you form a PVP guild that does arena from 2000-0000 every night but you guys are in Ulduar at that time, you're not a strict PVP guild.
Bikkstah on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
most so-called "hardcore" guilds are like yours, Hevach.
the perception of hardcore raid guilds is one that is created and believed in by those not in such guilds, and it is largely untrue.
If you don't have 25 people ready to go on a previously scheduled mostly-fixed time of the day/day of week then, yeah... I'd say you're not in a 25 man raiding guild, you're in a guild that raids 25 mans when they have the people.
I know realm first's, yogg 0, and enough glory mounts that my glory mount rides one too probably marks me as hardcore, but I can't say I am. My last three raid weeks have been one day long, and they've been three days at most for a while now. We were topping at 4 days in Ulduar and will probably do no more in Icecrown, we fuck around to the point that we get yelled at for stupid shit, and nobody's going to shove bamboo splinters up your asshole for standing in fire unless you're being chronically braindead.
Just to draw a stark comparison to Bikk's guild: We usually go with the best we can do with what's online at raid start, nobody gets gkicked for a week of noshows (though it might impact your chances of getting a first round invite later). The GM/raid leader logs in at 7, starts handing out everybody's 4 free flasks per raid day at 7:30, invites at 7:45, raid from 8-12, then daily heroic, a half hour of random crap, then he afk's with a huge number of fish feasts queued up and goes to bed by about 1:30-2 at the latest. 200g per day repairs, BOE's, pattern's we've already gotten once, and crafting mats that nobody's on the wait list for go to the AH to cover our freebies.
Most of our main players are online for less than 2 hours outside of a raid. No waiting around, no slack time, no dicking around. We get on, GM invites everybody rank 1-3, invites rank 4 if we're not full, and we figures from there. The only time we actually had to wait around was when both of our val'anyr's and our other holy pally all managed to get themselves in the hospital and/or arrested on the same night and we didn't know what the fuck we were going to do for healing. And hell, that was a 10 man night.
I didn't say we gkick for strictly no shows. I said no post/no shows. You can miss 2 months in a row without any punishment if you post on the forum that you will not be here. There is no punishment for excuses, either. If you post an hour before raid that you aren't coming because you're going to the bar, you are not punished just the same as someone that has homework, work work, or is sick or something. If you don't have 45 seconds to say "Hey, I don't feel like fucking logging on today" then we don't have time for you, either. This is how we avoid the "maybe, just maybe, XxDarkArthasxX the tank DK will log on if we sit here for 30 minutes" scenario.
Bikkstah on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
hey shryke
i hear you're in a casual guild
how's that working out for ya?
Senshi on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
yeah, speaking from the perspective of having raidled through most of TBC, I can say that generally, as long as I knew someone wasn't going to be there, I didn't care that they wouldn't...but sitting there with a raid of 23 people at start time and not knowing whether those two people you REALLY need will even log on is a shitty position to be in. Because then, you can either invite two filler people, and risk upsetting them by kicking them out when the people you need log on, or not being able to do the harder content because those two people either logged on late and you didn't want to kick the fillers, or because they didn't log on at all.
Generally a raid leader in any hardcore guild will not give a toss whether you're online or not as long as he KNOWS what is going on. If he knows what is going on he can make a decision early. If, as a raid leader, I know that four healers and a tank won't be online for a raid, I'll just call it and make it an offnight. If none of those five people tell me they won't be online, I'll probably end up sitting around for at least 45 minutes waiting for them, which wastes the time of everyone else in the raid, creates resentment and is generally shitty.
Once again, you gave all your examples in the form of waiting for 25 people to raid. You did not mention you were a 10 man only guild. I think it's safe to say that anyone is going to assume that if you're saying that you're waiting for the last 2 or 3 people to fill in your 25 man raid, that you are a 25 man raiding guild. I think it's quite abnormal to PUG 15 people for a GUILD raid during GUILD RAID TIME.
It's not elitist to say that if you spend your slotted raid time NOT raiding, that you are not a raiding guild. If you form a PVP guild that does arena from 2000-0000 every night but you guys are in Ulduar at that time, you're not a strict PVP guild.
And if you spend your slotted raid time RAIDING 10 mans but then pick up extras to RAID 25 mans you are still a raiding guild. A 10 man raiding guild that half-PUGs 25 mans, sure.
Once again, you gave all your examples in the form of waiting for 25 people to raid. You did not mention you were a 10 man only guild. I think it's safe to say that anyone is going to assume that if you're saying that you're waiting for the last 2 or 3 people to fill in your 25 man raid, that you are a 25 man raiding guild. I think it's quite abnormal to PUG 15 people for a GUILD raid during GUILD RAID TIME.
It's not elitist to say that if you spend your slotted raid time NOT raiding, that you are not a raiding guild. If you form a PVP guild that does arena from 2000-0000 every night but you guys are in Ulduar at that time, you're not a strict PVP guild.
And if you spend your slotted raid time RAIDING 10 mans but then pick up extras to RAID 25 mans you are still a raiding guild. A 10 man raiding guild that half-PUGs 25 mans, sure.
Sure. If you're a 10 man guild spending your time raiding 10 mans, you are a raiding guild. If your 25 man PUGs are mandatory, I think that's a different story. It's still pretty casual to have issues of not having replacements for people that need to leave or don't log on, however.
Bikkstah on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
Once again, you gave all your examples in the form of waiting for 25 people to raid. You did not mention you were a 10 man only guild. I think it's safe to say that anyone is going to assume that if you're saying that you're waiting for the last 2 or 3 people to fill in your 25 man raid, that you are a 25 man raiding guild. I think it's quite abnormal to PUG 15 people for a GUILD raid during GUILD RAID TIME.
It's not elitist to say that if you spend your slotted raid time NOT raiding, that you are not a raiding guild. If you form a PVP guild that does arena from 2000-0000 every night but you guys are in Ulduar at that time, you're not a strict PVP guild.
And if you spend your slotted raid time RAIDING 10 mans but then pick up extras to RAID 25 mans you are still a raiding guild. A 10 man raiding guild that half-PUGs 25 mans, sure.
Well, you're not a raiding guild at all if you're spending hours waiting around for people to show up
I didn't say we gkick for strictly no shows. I said no post/no shows. You can miss 2 months in a row without any punishment if you post on the forum that you will not be here. There is no punishment for excuses, either. If you post an hour before raid that you aren't coming because you're going to the bar, you are not punished just the same as someone that has homework, work work, or is sick or something. If you don't have 45 seconds to say "Hey, I don't feel like fucking logging on today" then we don't have time for you, either. This is how we avoid the "maybe, just maybe, XxDarkArthasxX the tank DK will log on if we sit here for 30 minutes" scenario.
Oh, we do that, too, but still - even no post no show for a week's not going to cost you your guild rank unless you're one of the four main tanks or currently getting legendary fragments. But if you schedule stuff, you're prepared to have people not show, or you're prepared to not do what you scheduled. I did mention how it basically took a third of our healers being out of commission without warning to even make us scratch our heads.
Hevach on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
I really don't see the issue here, raiding guilds who start on time and clear quickly are leagues different than guilds (like mine) who raid but end up having to wait for people or PUG people to do it consistently. How about this, we call your guild a raiding guild and call theirs a disciplined raiding guild and then call the guys like Ensidia and Stars hardcore raiding guilds and everyone's happy (except this is the internet so someone's bound to still be unhappy).
Opty on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
have we had a loot system discussion recently? those are always fresh and interesting with no repetition of arguments
I really don't see the issue here, raiding guilds who start on time and clear quickly are leagues different than guilds (like mine) who raid but end up having to wait for people or PUG people to do it consistently. How about this, we call your guild a raiding guild and call theirs a disciplined raiding guild and then call the guys like Ensidia and Stars hardcore raiding guilds and everyone's happy (except this is the internet so someone's bound to still be unhappy).
Or we can just emphasize various things, italics, underlines, bold we don't have to bring disciplined or hardcore into this at all.
Seg on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Posts
I'm not. You guys are being assholes.
He's saying that a 10 man guild that, perhaps, PUGs members for 25 man runs isn't a real raiding guild because said half-guild 25 runs might involve .... WAITING. OMG!!!
You're the one that qq'd about the multiple factors that prevent guilds from raiding. I simply countered that most raiding guilds have things in effect to prevent said factors.
I raid with our main progression raid on Wednesday nights for 4 hours, I spend about an hour everyday doing the daily heroic and Argent Tournament dailies for seals to buy mounts, time permitting. I carry 15credit hours, have a 30hr/week job, and train on the weekends with my National Guard Unit for deployment to Afghanistan in February. If school or my training interfere with raids, I don't raid. If I have homework, I usually don't attend drake runs for the week.
I never said that at all. I countered your example of waiting for members to attend an Ony 25 raid. At no point in your post did you mention that you are a 10 man guild attempting to PUG 25 man raids. You simple said that you spend time during your slotted raid time waiting to reach 25 people. If you had mentioned that you were a 10 man guild, I probably wouldn't have said what I said to you. All that aside, if you are a 10 man guild doing 25 mans, you are not a 10 man guild. If I joined your guild for 10 man content and instead spent my time waiting for 15 PUGs for a 25 man raid, I would quit.
I said "Even raiders can have downtime and time to fill with gathering".
You said "If you have downtime you are not a real raiding guild".
And I've provided a situation where a raiding guild would involve sitting around waiting.
Apparently though, only those guilds that have 25 members ready to go at exactly go time are real raiding guilds now? Please.
Exactly. So someone who RAIDS in a RAIDING GUILD might end up with time on their hands to gather shit.
Wow. I'm shocked....
I didn't do it during raid time though, because I was raiding at that time. In any case, a 10man guild that occasionally pugs 25mans is hardly criteria for judging them to need to min-max professions. a 25man raid guild doing difficult content is a time where that should be mandatory, and a guild like that should not have any downtime at all during raid hours.
"intentionally deceitful"?? What the fuck is wrong with you?
I gave some examples. You then decided to pull some elitist bullshit with "You aren't a REAL raider". I was just pointing out what a dick you were being for saying it.
And now you've gone on to prove you are even MORE of a dick then I thought. Kudos.
I know realm first's, yogg 0, and enough glory mounts that my glory mount rides one too probably marks me as hardcore, but I can't say I am. My last three raid weeks have been one day long, and they've been three days at most for a while now. We were topping at 4 days in Ulduar and will probably do no more in Icecrown - I'm actually bored with how little we raid, I have a life, but not enough of one to fill the holes. We fuck around to the point that we get yelled at for stupid shit, and nobody's going to shove bamboo splinters up your asshole for standing in fire unless you're being chronically braindead.
Just to draw a stark comparison to Bikk's guild: We usually go with the best we can do with what's online at raid start, nobody gets gkicked for a week of noshows (though it might impact your chances of getting a first round invite later). The GM/raid leader logs in at 7, starts handing out everybody's 4 free flasks per raid day at 7:30, invites at 7:45, raid from 8-12, then daily heroic, a half hour of random crap, then he afk's with a huge number of fish feasts queued up and goes to bed by about 1:30-2 at the latest. 200g per day repairs, BOE's, pattern's we've already gotten once, and crafting mats that nobody's on the wait list for go to the AH to cover our freebies.
Most of our main players are online for less than 2 hours outside of a raid. No waiting around, no slack time, no dicking around. We get on, GM invites everybody rank 1-3, invites rank 4 if we're not full, and we figures from there. The only time we actually had to wait around was when both of our val'anyr's and our other holy pally all managed to get themselves in the hospital and/or arrested on the same night and we didn't know what the fuck we were going to do for healing. And hell, that was a 10 man night.
It's not elitist to say that if you spend your slotted raid time NOT raiding, that you are not a raiding guild. If you form a PVP guild that does arena from 2000-0000 every night but you guys are in Ulduar at that time, you're not a strict PVP guild.
the perception of hardcore raid guilds is one that is created and believed in by those not in such guilds, and it is largely untrue.
I didn't say we gkick for strictly no shows. I said no post/no shows. You can miss 2 months in a row without any punishment if you post on the forum that you will not be here. There is no punishment for excuses, either. If you post an hour before raid that you aren't coming because you're going to the bar, you are not punished just the same as someone that has homework, work work, or is sick or something. If you don't have 45 seconds to say "Hey, I don't feel like fucking logging on today" then we don't have time for you, either. This is how we avoid the "maybe, just maybe, XxDarkArthasxX the tank DK will log on if we sit here for 30 minutes" scenario.
i hear you're in a casual guild
how's that working out for ya?
Generally a raid leader in any hardcore guild will not give a toss whether you're online or not as long as he KNOWS what is going on. If he knows what is going on he can make a decision early. If, as a raid leader, I know that four healers and a tank won't be online for a raid, I'll just call it and make it an offnight. If none of those five people tell me they won't be online, I'll probably end up sitting around for at least 45 minutes waiting for them, which wastes the time of everyone else in the raid, creates resentment and is generally shitty.
And if you spend your slotted raid time RAIDING 10 mans but then pick up extras to RAID 25 mans you are still a raiding guild. A 10 man raiding guild that half-PUGs 25 mans, sure.
Sure. If you're a 10 man guild spending your time raiding 10 mans, you are a raiding guild. If your 25 man PUGs are mandatory, I think that's a different story. It's still pretty casual to have issues of not having replacements for people that need to leave or don't log on, however.
Well, you're not a raiding guild at all if you're spending hours waiting around for people to show up
Senshi apparently wants in on the action too.
Oh, we do that, too, but still - even no post no show for a week's not going to cost you your guild rank unless you're one of the four main tanks or currently getting legendary fragments. But if you schedule stuff, you're prepared to have people not show, or you're prepared to not do what you scheduled. I did mention how it basically took a third of our healers being out of commission without warning to even make us scratch our heads.
why yes
I'm offended that you want to sully the good name of "raiding guild" by applying it to a casual guild that raids sometimes
problem, shryke?
Your so cute!
I liked bitching about the lack of weather in Northrend more than this.
Y
I'm saving my DKP for Death's Sting.
Yeah. And the devs are totally making the game too easy.
Or we can just emphasize various things, italics, underlines, bold we don't have to bring disciplined or hardcore into this at all.
pvp is ruining pve
yes but everyone knows that pvp is a true measure of one's skill
Even the Devs admitted that one.