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Kidnapping/False Imprisonment? [Update/Resolved, Post #33]
Sir Carcass
I have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered User regular
I have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered User regular
I guess this is a legal question for anyone that might know. I apologize for the length, but it's kind of hard to summarize.
This involves my wife's family, particularly her grandmother and the grandmother's children. Basically, she is 95 and up until last year had still been living on her own in the house her and her late husband had owned forever. One thing I should mention is that she is fairly wealthy and most of her family are greedy leeches. I should also mention that my wife's parents are divorced, the grandmother being paternal and this is coming from my wife's mom (ex-wife of grandmother's son). The son doesn't really want anything to do with anyone. Grandma has been really close with my wife and her mom and brother over the years, traveling every year to stay a month with wife's mom every Christmas, and sometimes a month for Thanksgiving. This has lead to a lot of jealousy with grandma's biological children.
So anyway, about a year ago grandma started falling and hurting herself, as elderly tend to do. The last time she was in the hospital for about a week and it was decided (by daughter A, who had somehow managed to get Power of Attorney with no one else being aware) that grandma could no longer live on her own, so while she was drugged up on painkillers, she was moved to a nursing home. I should point out here that daughter A was also able to get a life claim or whatever on grandma's house (which isn't worth much by itself, but is on some expensive property that developers want) which meant it was now the daughter's, just grandma could live in it until she died or otherwise no longer lived there, when it could be sold or whatever. All of this took place in Minnesota.
BUT, that's not where this is going. Eventually it was agreed that grandma could go live with daughter B in Missouri. Our side (my wife, her brother, her mom and step-dad) weren't really happy (would have preferred her just live in her home with a visiting nurse), but not much we could do. Grandma is old and kind of confused, so she tends to just go along with what she's told.
So grandma has been living with daughter B for a while now, maybe a year. After moving in, she no longer answered her cell phone. We later found out daughter B took it away. We were informed last year that grandma wouldn't be visiting for Christmas anymore, some shit about her needing to make up for lost time with her actual children or whatever. Then last month wife's mom and a friend were in Branson (city grandma is living in with daughter
and decided to try and stop by to visit. They pulled in as daughter B was outside, so she wasn't able to pretend they weren't home or whatever. She was very short with them and told them they could only stay a few minutes because they were about to run errands (news to grandma). Grandma was extremely happy to see them and hugged them forever, etc, but daughter B was hovering around telling them it's time to go. Wife's mom suggested taking grandma out to lunch the next day before they head out, daughter B said we'll see. Daughter B calls later to say they won't be taking grandma to lunch.
So shit kind of hits the fan last week. Somehow Grandma got her cell phone back and calls wife's mom in tears saying her bags are packed and she wants to leave. Wife's mom doesn't know what to do. I get this email forwarded to me from my wife (from her mom) today:
The main reason wife's mom hasn't done anything is that she doesn't think she has any legal ground, not being a blood relative or being married to one. Grandma is basically being manipulated with lies, but it is obvious she's no longer happy there.
So my question is, is there anything we can do? Can we call the police? Is there a CPS for the elderly that can investigate? She's not being mistreated, per se, other than being barred from outside contact. Can grandma say, "I don't want to live here anymore" and be allowed to leave? This shit seems to be a no brainer, but apparently legality can be a mess sometimes.
This involves my wife's family, particularly her grandmother and the grandmother's children. Basically, she is 95 and up until last year had still been living on her own in the house her and her late husband had owned forever. One thing I should mention is that she is fairly wealthy and most of her family are greedy leeches. I should also mention that my wife's parents are divorced, the grandmother being paternal and this is coming from my wife's mom (ex-wife of grandmother's son). The son doesn't really want anything to do with anyone. Grandma has been really close with my wife and her mom and brother over the years, traveling every year to stay a month with wife's mom every Christmas, and sometimes a month for Thanksgiving. This has lead to a lot of jealousy with grandma's biological children.
So anyway, about a year ago grandma started falling and hurting herself, as elderly tend to do. The last time she was in the hospital for about a week and it was decided (by daughter A, who had somehow managed to get Power of Attorney with no one else being aware) that grandma could no longer live on her own, so while she was drugged up on painkillers, she was moved to a nursing home. I should point out here that daughter A was also able to get a life claim or whatever on grandma's house (which isn't worth much by itself, but is on some expensive property that developers want) which meant it was now the daughter's, just grandma could live in it until she died or otherwise no longer lived there, when it could be sold or whatever. All of this took place in Minnesota.
BUT, that's not where this is going. Eventually it was agreed that grandma could go live with daughter B in Missouri. Our side (my wife, her brother, her mom and step-dad) weren't really happy (would have preferred her just live in her home with a visiting nurse), but not much we could do. Grandma is old and kind of confused, so she tends to just go along with what she's told.
So grandma has been living with daughter B for a while now, maybe a year. After moving in, she no longer answered her cell phone. We later found out daughter B took it away. We were informed last year that grandma wouldn't be visiting for Christmas anymore, some shit about her needing to make up for lost time with her actual children or whatever. Then last month wife's mom and a friend were in Branson (city grandma is living in with daughter
and decided to try and stop by to visit. They pulled in as daughter B was outside, so she wasn't able to pretend they weren't home or whatever. She was very short with them and told them they could only stay a few minutes because they were about to run errands (news to grandma). Grandma was extremely happy to see them and hugged them forever, etc, but daughter B was hovering around telling them it's time to go. Wife's mom suggested taking grandma out to lunch the next day before they head out, daughter B said we'll see. Daughter B calls later to say they won't be taking grandma to lunch.So shit kind of hits the fan last week. Somehow Grandma got her cell phone back and calls wife's mom in tears saying her bags are packed and she wants to leave. Wife's mom doesn't know what to do. I get this email forwarded to me from my wife (from her mom) today:
I had tried three times today to call Grandma with voice mail coming on every time. Then at 9:30 tonight when I tried, it rang four times and then went to voice mail. I did not leave a message, but right after I hung up, she called me back.
She told me that she couldn't talk long or they would hear her talking and would come in and take her phone away again. She said she would try to call me again tomorrow when they are at work.
It sounded like <daughter B> had been talking to her about not letting <daughter A> come to get her. She said it wouldn't be good to go to her house as she would have to sleep on the couch there and it wouldn't be good for an old lady to have to do that. And that <daughter B> already had all her paperwork from her house. Her voice sounded like she was beaten down and afraid. I hated to hear that.
I'll keep you posted on any more that I hear.
She told me that she couldn't talk long or they would hear her talking and would come in and take her phone away again. She said she would try to call me again tomorrow when they are at work.
It sounded like <daughter B> had been talking to her about not letting <daughter A> come to get her. She said it wouldn't be good to go to her house as she would have to sleep on the couch there and it wouldn't be good for an old lady to have to do that. And that <daughter B> already had all her paperwork from her house. Her voice sounded like she was beaten down and afraid. I hated to hear that.
I'll keep you posted on any more that I hear.
The main reason wife's mom hasn't done anything is that she doesn't think she has any legal ground, not being a blood relative or being married to one. Grandma is basically being manipulated with lies, but it is obvious she's no longer happy there.
So my question is, is there anything we can do? Can we call the police? Is there a CPS for the elderly that can investigate? She's not being mistreated, per se, other than being barred from outside contact. Can grandma say, "I don't want to live here anymore" and be allowed to leave? This shit seems to be a no brainer, but apparently legality can be a mess sometimes.
Sir Carcass on
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http://www.dss.mo.gov/mhd/index.htm
This is a legal document. You will need a lawyer for advice.
I'd also appreciate any other advice or people that dealt with similar situations.
If there's any way that anyone can get to where Grandma lives that may also be ideal. You might be able to get her moved to a better (safer?) place, even if one of you needs to sleep on the couch for a spell.
Grandma may be confused or scared of something else, but it's no excuse for daughter b to treat her like that.
Really, the only ones that seem to care are my wife, her brother, and her mom. The mom lives in NE Texas. I'm pretty sure she would drive up there and get her as soon as she thought she could. They talked about moving her to this assisted living home in the city mom-in-law lives in (same place my last grandmother lived until she died), which grandma has been to before and liked. I think that would be best for everyone. I'll make sure they contact these people and at least find out what their options are.
And another example of daughter B's bullshit: When they were visiting, MiL (mom-in-law) asked if maybe they could come get grandma to come stay with them for a week or 2 around Thanksgiving (they're coming to visit us this year). Daughter B said no, that my wife's dad (grandma's son) was coming up there and they were all having Thanksgiving together, to start healing the rift we caused or whatever. My wife talks to her dad several times a week and asked him about it and he had no idea what she was talking about, and that he wouldn't come visit her (daughter
No, my wife sent it to her mom, since she's kind of the one at the center of the rescue effort, if you will.
But yeah, I agree my wife should call if her mom doesn't. I'll talk to her about it tonight.
The way we handled it was going to Minnesota and allowing my Grandmother to regain her own rights. With POA given to someone else because they are found as being incompetent/incapable of it, it's no better than being a child in many cases.
Once she had the ability to make her own financial and legal choices again, then she was able to shift them to my mother. That didn't prevent my aunt from gutting her place for all the valuables mind you, but she was able to choose where she went instead of being placed in a horrific nursing home and forgotten about... and I mean REALLY bad, this place was nothing but a brief pit stop on the way to a cheap grave, each room had space enough for a small bed and a dresser... clothing hanging out of the rooms on racks, debris all over the floor.. everyone there looked like they were dead already and just waiting for their body to catch up.
At any rate, I would look and see what it would take for her to regain her own POA in Minnesota, then she can decide what to do with it on her own, as well as what to do with all of her stuff. How you go about it will depend entirely upon how she lost it/signed it away.
Baring that, the previous advice on abuse is spot on, it doesn't have to be physical abuse for someone to step in.
The really tragic thing is that he loved seeing his family, and he loved his children and grandchildren, and being around people in general, and he was put away in this place that no one even knew where it was to visit him. It's been enough years that he almost certainly died that way.
If you can do anything at all, don't let it happen to her.
I actually wasn't aware that was possible. If you could find out what they had to do, I would appreciate it.
I'm pretty sure they just stuck some papers in front of her and said, "Here, sign these."
And ceres
Her family has always been like this. My wife tries to avoid those aunts because when she's been around them they always make snide comments about how my wife and her brother were always grandma's favorites. If that's true, hmm, I wonder why. Maybe grandma actually liked people calling her just to talk to her and not ask for money.
Any suggestions on how to do this? I'm pretty sure my wife's mom (who is the one grandma has been calling) uses an iPhone, if it matters.
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However, my aunt has a lawyer for a husband, was the closest relative, and essentially used that leverage to prove to the state that my grandmother was no longer fit to make her own choices or take care of herself.
Being as her case was an involuntary removal of rights, I do not know how things would be impacted in your case if she voluntarily signed POA over to someone else. I suppose you could argue it was done under duress or manipulation in that case as she may have had no idea what it was or what the ramifications of it would be.
Regardless, you will need a lawyer in this mess at some point, so it is just something else you might as well inquire about.
I don't believe there is an app for that but someone else here may have a good suggestion.
I'm guessing when my wife sent those links to her mom, her mom also forwarded them to daughter A, because daughter A emailed my wife's mom yesterday saying she had filed a complaint through that department and they would be investigating. She also suggested that maybe grandma could stay with my wife's mom for a little bit, maybe through Thanksgiving and Christmas (which she would like), but I guess we'll have to wait for the investigation to be completed. My wife's mom also said she talked to grandma yesterday, and that she was hiding in a public restroom while they were out running errands so she could use her phone. Nice, huh?
They also finally got in touch with grandma's attorney (they had been trying for the last several days), but the only real help he could offer was to talk to a Missouri attorney, since that's the state she currently residing in. We're still trying to figure out if any Power of Attorney stuff was transferred to daughter B. We also think the original PoA may have just been medical, but we're checking on that, too. I'll post an update as soon as I know more, but things are looking good at the moment.
Can you trust Daughter A to have actually filed the complaint? She is the one who snatched PoA and the house after all. It doesn't sound like she has grandma's best interests in mind.
I'd follow up with the department to confirm that a complaint has been filed.
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The only way there could be any problem is if she was declared incompetent and daughter b was assigned to be a legal guardian (which would mean she would have had to have had some kind of severely mentally debilitating disease like Alzheimer's). If she had and got better enough to make her own decisions she can request her own guardianship (which in most cases, simply being lucid and with it enough to personally request it along with possibly an evaluation by a doctor or psychologist is sufficient evidence to return it to her.
If outright abuse is suspected get the police or social services involved.
Also there's really no reason why if the grandmother has a cell phone and is her own legal guardian that she can't simply call the police and say "I'd like to move to live with daughter A, my stuff is packed, I'm afraid daughter B might try to stop me, would you please escort me from the home?"
Today I was forwarded another email from daughter A talking about her conversation with the person investigating and it sounded genuine enough. She may be petty, but I don't give her that much credit to be creative.
Oh, if only it were that simple. I found out today that she was diagnosed with alzheimers back in March, which I didn't know. I think the problem is that grandma just feels helpless and that she doesn't have any other choice. It's hard to explain things to her, so telling her to call the police herself wouldn't do much good. You know how elderly people can be. But we don't know yet if anyone has guardianship.
The main problem with this whole thing is that the jealous sisters wanted to cut my wife's family off completely, and is why daughter B has been denying contact. That's also why we don't know a lot of what's been going on, no one would tell us anything. I think maybe daughter A is starting to realize things are kind of out of hand and is trying to help make it right. At least I hope.
Best of luck.
And I would definitely find out ASAP if she still has the legal ability to leave the house of her own free will.
Also that sister just sounds very creepy, like she's forcing the grandma to live there because the grandma dared to insult her by not treating her better than her relatives (in her mind)
There is someone that we are dealing with at the moment that tried this, where her kids were not allowed to go outside, they were never available unless you caught her, and she took away anything they got. She ended up losing the kids finally when a social worker was going to stay for 2 weeks to monitor the house, it lasted 3 days before the kids were yanked.
From what I understand, she originally moved away from Minnesota because she didn't want to deal with grandma aging (as in the responsibility, not the emotional pain or whatever). My guess is that grandma is paying her bills, which is why she's living there. That's one thing the investigation will look at, at least.
Thanks everyone for your advice and kind words. Grandma was excited at the prospect of an actual visit from family without having Hitler daughter looking over her shoulder and hurrying people out the door. We're also in the process of making sure no one ever has to deal with her again.