All I know is even though I don't currently have a rogue(Probably going to make a Goblin in cata), they had better either get rid of Hunger for Blood, or make it more fun, because what basically amounts to a 5% passive damage buff you have to jump through hoops to turn on is pretty damn lame as 51 point talents go.
At least it's not a 3-stack buff that you needed to keep up like in BC.
Yeah, it's definitely better than it has been in previous iterations, but I mean, for Cataclysm if they want Assassination to do 5% more damage just increase scaling on envenom or mutilate and give them a fun 51 point talent. Killing Spree is an awesome talent, which is both cool and powerful. That's how 51 pt talents should be.
I'm apparently crazy for never having hated the original version of HfB like everyone was supposed to. Sorry i wasn't upset that a game about hitting buttons made me hit a button
I'm apparently crazy for never having hated the original version of HfB like everyone was supposed to. Sorry i wasn't upset that a game about hitting buttons made me hit a button
You're not crazy, and everybody enjoys different things. My point is that it's a 51 point talent that is basically just a 5% passive damage increase, so the game is making you hit a button that doesn't add fun to the spec. Killing Spree, Hammer of the Righteous, Shockwave, Living Bomb, Metamorphosis, Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Explosive Shot, Berserk, Wild Growth, Beacon of Light.
Those are all 51 point talents that do what 51 point talents should do in my opinion, which is either give you a new attack or heal, or a powerful cooldown.
I'm apparently crazy for never having hated the original version of HfB like everyone was supposed to. Sorry i wasn't upset that a game about hitting buttons made me hit a button
You're not crazy, and everybody enjoys different things. My point is that it's a 51 point talent that is basically just a 5% passive damage increase, so the game is making you hit a button that doesn't add fun to the spec. Killing Spree, Hammer of the Righteous, Shockwave, Living Bomb, Metamorphosis, Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Explosive Shot, Berserk, Wild Growth, Beacon of Light.
Those are all 51 point talents that do what 51 point talents should do in my opinion, which is either give you a new attack or heal, or a powerful cooldown.
Yeah there are definitely a lot of better 51 point talents out there and compared to all those others it's easily the lamest. We couldn't come up with anything for you so here's 15% more damage
At least it's not a 3-stack buff that you needed to keep up like in BC.
Yeah, it's definitely better than it has been in previous iterations, but I mean, for Cataclysm if they want Assassination to do 5% more damage just increase scaling on envenom or mutilate and give them a fun 51 point talent. Killing Spree is an awesome talent, which is both cool and powerful. That's how 51 pt talents should be.
Blizzard have stated lots of times they don't like HFB's functionality of "press this button for an 8% (glyph) dps increase once a minute". Unfortunately at the time it was implemented it was the only place they could see to put that buff, and it hasn't changed much since then.
They actually decreased mutilates damage, because it was too powerful in pvp, so they can't buff that. They have buffed envenom, numerous times, but not enough for 8% and if they did buff it enough to cover that, it would be attractive for combat specs. Unfortunately thats all they have to work for since a mutilate rotation is just mutilate and envenom. They can't change it to passive because then rogues front load too much damage in PvP, like they were before it got changed to requiring the bleed on the target.
They basically backed themselves into a corner with it by trying to balance both PvE and PVP instead of just making it to one thing in pvp and one thing in pve, but they should be able to change it in cata by adding its 8% damage to the mastery stuff and changing it.
At least it's not a 3-stack buff that you needed to keep up like in BC.
Yeah, it's definitely better than it has been in previous iterations, but I mean, for Cataclysm if they want Assassination to do 5% more damage just increase scaling on envenom or mutilate and give them a fun 51 point talent. Killing Spree is an awesome talent, which is both cool and powerful. That's how 51 pt talents should be.
Blizzard have stated lots of times they don't like HFB's functionality of "press this button for an 8% (glyph) dps increase once a minute". Unfortunately at the time it was implemented it was the only place they could see to put that buff, and it hasn't changed much since then.
They actually decreased mutilates damage, because it was too powerful in pvp, so they can't buff that. They have buffed envenom, numerous times, but not enough for 8% and if they did buff it enough to cover that, it would be attractive for combat specs. Unfortunately thats all they have to work for since a mutilate rotation is just mutilate and envenom. They can't change it to passive because then rogues front load too much damage in PvP, like they were before it got changed to requiring the bleed on the target.
They basically backed themselves into a corner with it by trying to balance both PvE and PVP instead of just making it to one thing in pvp and one thing in pve, but they should be able to change it in cata by adding its 8% damage to the mastery stuff and changing it.
They nerfed mutilate early in Wrath when a poison bug was causing double procs of poisons. Then, they fixed the bug, but never un-nerfed mutilate.
Just like when ICC first came out and assasination was buffed to compete with Combat, turned out it was better than Combat (and everyone else) on some fights by a large amount at that gear level, they nerfed HfB bigtime, then as the ICC 5/10/15/etc... aura buff went out and better gear dropped, we see again Combat being way above Assasination, and many other specs too, especially Fury (who could put on tank gear tomorrow and tank the place). Are they going to now buff HfB back? Snowball's chance in hell they are.
I think an Assassination 51 pointer that buffed Rupture considerably could be good. HfB basically requires Ruptures most of the time anyway. It would have to make Rupture really fucking powerful to be at the same level of PvE usefulness as 8% damage, though... maybe to fit with the theme, an envenomed rupture that applied one or both of your poisons each tick. I'm just throwing out ideas here with little numerical consideration.
All I know is even though I don't currently have a rogue(Probably going to make a Goblin in cata), they had better either get rid of Hunger for Blood, or make it more fun, because what basically amounts to a 5% passive damage buff you have to jump through hoops to turn on is pretty damn lame as 51 point talents go.
In the process they'd better make assassination more than a three-button spec, then. Until there's more to assassination than spamming Mutilate/Envenom, HfB fills the gap to keep it from being too retardedly easy.
All I know is even though I don't currently have a rogue(Probably going to make a Goblin in cata), they had better either get rid of Hunger for Blood, or make it more fun, because what basically amounts to a 5% passive damage buff you have to jump through hoops to turn on is pretty damn lame as 51 point talents go.
In the process they'd better make assassination more than a three-button spec, then. Until there's more to assassination than spamming Mutilate/Envenom, HfB fills the gap to keep it from being too retardedly easy.
Yeah, that would be good too. I like a rogue dagger spec in terms of flavor, but I always thought mutilate seemed a little too boring.
Is it feasible to level with daggers as a rogue at this point? My warrior is amost 80 and will be getting badges and shards soon enough. I've already got 2 15 agility scrolls set aside. What about maces? Can a rogue level maces and then share those out to a shammy? I like to maximize my heirloom value.
UncleChet on
I'm sometimes grumpy and random, feel free to overlook the strange man in the corner.
Just get the maces if you're trying to maximize heirloom usage. No one else even has a use for daggers besides hunters (and those are just stat sticks for them).
Is it feasible to level with daggers as a rogue at this point? My warrior is amost 80 and will be getting badges and shards soon enough. I've already got 2 15 agility scrolls set aside. What about maces? Can a rogue level maces and then share those out to a shammy? I like to maximize my heirloom value.
Not only would the maces have overlap with an enhancement shaman and a frost DK if you wanted to dual wield, but levelling as a rogue with daggers is boring until you get mutilate anyway. You could do combat daggers, but you'd hit way harder with the mace.
What was the purpose of Shiv again? To quickly apply poisons?
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
What was the purpose of Shiv again? To quickly apply poisons?
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
Aside from PVP uses, it seems logical to use Shiv just before your DP stack falls off if you're getting terrible luck with procs. Also use it with Anesthetic Poison on, say, TOC beasts to stop the enrage. Otherwise, yeah, make with the sinister striking.
(Side note: keep S&D up with as close to 100% uptime as you can. Most important PVE finisher regardless of spec.)
What was the purpose of Shiv again? To quickly apply poisons?
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
Aside from PVP uses, it seems logical to use Shiv just before your DP stack falls off if you're getting terrible luck with procs. Also use it with Anesthetic Poison on, say, TOC beasts to stop the enrage. Otherwise, yeah, make with the sinister striking.
(Side note: keep S&D up with as close to 100% uptime as you can. Most important PVE finisher regardless of spec.)
Yeah, the S&D thing is a given. But other than that and "spam SS" I never really knew much about using a rogue until I rolled one, so I figured I'd check to see if somehow it was more complex than it seemed.
What was the purpose of Shiv again? To quickly apply poisons?
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
Aside from PVP uses, it seems logical to use Shiv just before your DP stack falls off if you're getting terrible luck with procs. Also use it with Anesthetic Poison on, say, TOC beasts to stop the enrage. Otherwise, yeah, make with the sinister striking.
(Side note: keep S&D up with as close to 100% uptime as you can. Most important PVE finisher regardless of spec.)
Yeah, the S&D thing is a given. But other than that and "spam SS" I never really knew much about using a rogue until I rolled one, so I figured I'd check to see if somehow it was more complex than it seemed.
Combat:
Sinister Strike your face off
Keep SnD up
Rupture
Eviscerate until you need to SnD or Rupture again
Muti:
Don't even have to worry about reapplying SnD
Mutilate your face off
Envenom
I don't even have a rogue but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of the two specs in PvE. At least Combat has fun cooldowns like AR, BF, and KS.
Are rogues even using rupture in dungeons these days? I know it can be very worthwhile when soloing, but not in groups if it doesn't stack with other bleeds.
Are rogues even using rupture in dungeons these days? I know it can be very worthwhile when soloing, but not in groups if it doesn't stack with other bleeds.
I do for a dot when Anub dives down since he wipes all current damage when he dives it's worth the dot
It's rumoured to give a free attack with the tier 9 but I don't know if it really does
I do shiv for the poison and combo point the faster the off hand the cheaper it is
Are rogues even using rupture in dungeons these days? I know it can be very worthwhile when soloing, but not in groups if it doesn't stack with other bleeds.
Using rupture on bosses is still a DPS upgrade until you have close to capped ArP if I recall correctly.
What was the purpose of Shiv again? To quickly apply poisons?
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
Aside from PVP uses, it seems logical to use Shiv just before your DP stack falls off if you're getting terrible luck with procs. Also use it with Anesthetic Poison on, say, TOC beasts to stop the enrage. Otherwise, yeah, make with the sinister striking.
(Side note: keep S&D up with as close to 100% uptime as you can. Most important PVE finisher regardless of spec.)
Yeah, the S&D thing is a given. But other than that and "spam SS" I never really knew much about using a rogue until I rolled one, so I figured I'd check to see if somehow it was more complex than it seemed.
Combat:
Sinister Strike your face off
Keep SnD up
Rupture
Eviscerate until you need to SnD or Rupture again
Muti:
Don't even have to worry about reapplying SnD
Mutilate your face off
Envenom
I don't even have a rogue but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of the two specs in PvE. At least Combat has fun cooldowns like AR, BF, and KS.
So I should be using rupture? Because I think I may have used it all of once in the last 70-some levels.
I'm fairly certain you rupture on bosses unless you have so much ArP that another eviscerate actually does more damage than the rupture would, which is a very high amount because Rupture ignores armor due to being a bleed. You're not going to use it while levelling or on quick dying trash or anything though.
I'm fairly certain you rupture on bosses unless you have so much ArP that another eviscerate actually does more damage than the rupture would, which is a very high amount because Rupture ignores armor due to being a bleed. You're not going to use it while levelling or on quick dying trash or anything though.
100% chance to apply poison from your OH, i think.
Might be useful in PvP, but apart from a spec that didn't even last a week, i don't remember it being relevant.
Since we don't have a hunter I'm in charge of applying anesthetic poison to the shambling horrors in LK phase 1.
It's kind of a shitty job and I go through a lot of poisons having to start out with ana and then switch to deadly during the phase transition, but I was just so excited to actually have a use for shiv that I didn't mind so much.
No its not still worse. Low rupture rotation is still the best right up until 1400 ArP. Basically keep snd up, keep rupture up (i.e. refresh if you have 5 combos and its not up), evis with spare points. Generally it works out to 5s/5r/5e.
Last I'd heard about it was during the time EJ was doing the math for the t9 set bonus and decided that even with the bonus it was still better dps to go rupture-less.
That said, I don't know the math or modeling for any of this but anecdotal evidence from my experience says rupture damage isn't worth wasting the CPs
Last I'd heard about it was during the time EJ was doing the math for the t9 set bonus and decided that even with the bonus it was still better dps to go rupture-less.
That said, I don't know the math or modeling for any of this but anecdotal evidence from my experience says rupture damage isn't worth wasting the CPs
Well the proc chance for t9 was utter shit, so that's understandable
but with 3.3, rupture can crit without the t8 4 piece bonus. And since most ICC geared rogues are looking at something like 65-70% physical crit, that's a big deal.
So, in my pre-80 leveling, what do I want more than anything else stat-wise?
I know agility is good obviously, and so far I've pretty much gone for that or crit over anything else. Do I need to think about hit/ArP/expertise/haste at this point?
I agree, anything with hit rating on it is awesome while levelling, because missing less means you kill faster. The easy answer is dps leather. Seriously, anything that is an upgrade over what you have will be worth taking while levelling.
Also, GC confirmed that Hunger for Blood is going away in Cataclysm, so I'm glad to hear that.
How do you use Tricks of the Trade properly? Wait to get the CP's lined up, hit it, then envenom? Pop it right away then ambush and hurry up to an envenom?
XArchangelX on
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Yeah, it's definitely better than it has been in previous iterations, but I mean, for Cataclysm if they want Assassination to do 5% more damage just increase scaling on envenom or mutilate and give them a fun 51 point talent. Killing Spree is an awesome talent, which is both cool and powerful. That's how 51 pt talents should be.
You're not crazy, and everybody enjoys different things. My point is that it's a 51 point talent that is basically just a 5% passive damage increase, so the game is making you hit a button that doesn't add fun to the spec. Killing Spree, Hammer of the Righteous, Shockwave, Living Bomb, Metamorphosis, Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Explosive Shot, Berserk, Wild Growth, Beacon of Light.
Those are all 51 point talents that do what 51 point talents should do in my opinion, which is either give you a new attack or heal, or a powerful cooldown.
Yeah there are definitely a lot of better 51 point talents out there and compared to all those others it's easily the lamest. We couldn't come up with anything for you so here's 15% more damage
Blizzard have stated lots of times they don't like HFB's functionality of "press this button for an 8% (glyph) dps increase once a minute". Unfortunately at the time it was implemented it was the only place they could see to put that buff, and it hasn't changed much since then.
They actually decreased mutilates damage, because it was too powerful in pvp, so they can't buff that. They have buffed envenom, numerous times, but not enough for 8% and if they did buff it enough to cover that, it would be attractive for combat specs. Unfortunately thats all they have to work for since a mutilate rotation is just mutilate and envenom. They can't change it to passive because then rogues front load too much damage in PvP, like they were before it got changed to requiring the bleed on the target.
They basically backed themselves into a corner with it by trying to balance both PvE and PVP instead of just making it to one thing in pvp and one thing in pve, but they should be able to change it in cata by adding its 8% damage to the mastery stuff and changing it.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
I am just now starting to see a few of them again, with mostly 264 gear and a 15% damage buff.
They nerfed mutilate early in Wrath when a poison bug was causing double procs of poisons. Then, they fixed the bug, but never un-nerfed mutilate.
Just like when ICC first came out and assasination was buffed to compete with Combat, turned out it was better than Combat (and everyone else) on some fights by a large amount at that gear level, they nerfed HfB bigtime, then as the ICC 5/10/15/etc... aura buff went out and better gear dropped, we see again Combat being way above Assasination, and many other specs too, especially Fury (who could put on tank gear tomorrow and tank the place). Are they going to now buff HfB back? Snowball's chance in hell they are.
Yeah, that would be good too. I like a rogue dagger spec in terms of flavor, but I always thought mutilate seemed a little too boring.
Not only would the maces have overlap with an enhancement shaman and a frost DK if you wanted to dual wield, but levelling as a rogue with daggers is boring until you get mutilate anyway. You could do combat daggers, but you'd hit way harder with the mace.
My rogue just hit WotLK levels, and now that I've got shiv, I'm wondering how often I should be using it.
Should I focus on trying to stack poison and then use envenom, or should I just continue with the SS x 5, Evis, repeat thing?
I'm combat spec, for the record.
That's how often you'll have to use it as Combat.
Yeah, immediately applies off-hand poison and gives a combo point, but neither the poison nor the attack can crit.
I'm guessing by previous comment that I might as well just ignore it and keep with the SS and Evis spamming, pausing only to killing spree every 2 minutes.
Aside from PVP uses, it seems logical to use Shiv just before your DP stack falls off if you're getting terrible luck with procs. Also use it with Anesthetic Poison on, say, TOC beasts to stop the enrage. Otherwise, yeah, make with the sinister striking.
(Side note: keep S&D up with as close to 100% uptime as you can. Most important PVE finisher regardless of spec.)
Might be useful in PvP, but apart from a spec that didn't even last a week, i don't remember it being relevant.
Yeah, the S&D thing is a given. But other than that and "spam SS" I never really knew much about using a rogue until I rolled one, so I figured I'd check to see if somehow it was more complex than it seemed.
Combat:
Sinister Strike your face off
Keep SnD up
Rupture
Eviscerate until you need to SnD or Rupture again
Muti:
Don't even have to worry about reapplying SnD
Mutilate your face off
Envenom
I don't even have a rogue but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of the two specs in PvE. At least Combat has fun cooldowns like AR, BF, and KS.
I do for a dot when Anub dives down since he wipes all current damage when he dives it's worth the dot
It's rumoured to give a free attack with the tier 9 but I don't know if it really does
I do shiv for the poison and combo point the faster the off hand the cheaper it is
Using rupture on bosses is still a DPS upgrade until you have close to capped ArP if I recall correctly.
So I should be using rupture? Because I think I may have used it all of once in the last 70-some levels.
Okay then, good to know.
Since we don't have a hunter I'm in charge of applying anesthetic poison to the shambling horrors in LK phase 1.
It's kind of a shitty job and I go through a lot of poisons having to start out with ana and then switch to deadly during the phase transition, but I was just so excited to actually have a use for shiv that I didn't mind so much.
I assume it's still worse once you stack enough arpen, but as long as it's close I might find myself using it anyway.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
That said, I don't know the math or modeling for any of this but anecdotal evidence from my experience says rupture damage isn't worth wasting the CPs
Well the proc chance for t9 was utter shit, so that's understandable
but with 3.3, rupture can crit without the t8 4 piece bonus. And since most ICC geared rogues are looking at something like 65-70% physical crit, that's a big deal.
I know agility is good obviously, and so far I've pretty much gone for that or crit over anything else. Do I need to think about hit/ArP/expertise/haste at this point?
Also, GC confirmed that Hunger for Blood is going away in Cataclysm, so I'm glad to hear that.
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