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New Prince of Persia Announced for May '10, Returns to Sands of Time Storyline

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    G RolG Rol Dorsia? Nobody goes there anymore... Nell'sRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    LewieP wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    All these people bitching and moaning about the new Prince of Persia makes me want to play it

    Because there is no possible way it can be nearly as bad as anyone here makes it out to be

    Did you like Assasins Creed? I think that a lot of the people that liked POP loved AC.

    I'm one of the few that loved PoP08 unconditionally. I recognize that it's platforming is simplified, but I dug that the simpler mechanics allowed for long unbroken chains of acrobatic platforming. It's super simple, but for me totally fun. I even enjoyed collecting those hard to get lightseeds.

    AC ranked as "ok" for me.

    G Rol on

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    mere_immortalmere_immortal So tasty!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Oh wow, so the epilogue doesn't push the ending along at all then. Lame.

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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Haha they should call this Price of Persia: The Movie: The Game

    MAMEmania-street1.jpg

    This is a totally original joke that has not been made several times in this thread

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    Doc HollidayDoc Holliday Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Haha they should call this Price of Persia: The Movie: The Game

    MAMEmania-street1.jpg

    This is a totally original joke that has not been made several times in this thread

    Hey hey.










    Hey.



    edit: Hey.

    Doc Holliday on
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    lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Oh wow, so the epilogue doesn't push the ending along at all then. Lame.
    Well, I liked the interaction between Elika and the Prince. How all of a sudden he's started believing while Elika is drowned in despair. It has some nice voicework.

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    NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    My feelings on PoP2008 are in a review I wrote here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps3/review/R131652.html

    For the tldr crowd, it's essentially this - a beautiful looking game marred by a simplistic plot, horrible dialogue, and mindless platforming. It's more like a rhythm game than anything else. Think of Rock Band, on easy, while playing Eye of the Tiger, with swords and magic involved somehow. Embarrassingly easy, where mistakes stem from not paying attention rather than difficulty.

    It's also surprisingly linear. There's no real exploration to speak of, and only a couple of ways to travel from stage to stage. At least in AC one could really explore the cities. Not so, here. If you move off the path, Elika will warp you back on. Even in places where it looks like there's solid ground (I'm looking at you, cleared Hunter stages...don't tease me with a nice sandy shore if I can't get down there).

    Aside from the graphics, I found it craptacular all around.

    Nightslyr on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    Monger wrote: »
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.
    Is that sarcams? PoP 08 has terrible combat. Every fight is almost identical, relying on the exact same tricks and strategies and initiating the exact same combos. I felt like there was a single enemy in the game, and a couple of different bosses. You just played these several times over the course of the game.
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.

    wat

    There is one optimal combo

    And er, that's the entirety of the combat summed up.

    In WW you had so many different options, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. I mean, the idea that the combats are even comparable confuses me.
    Okay. I'll explain. First of all, those two combat systems aren't comparable. I'm not comparing them. I'm judging them on contextual merits.

    SoT's combat was very defensive and very methodical, like AC's combat. I'm excluding people that did nothing but counter in either of those games, seeing as they are chumps. SoT's combat was very much about positioning yourself properly and waiting for the correct opportunity to strike, as well as finding the correct way to approach each individual enemy, as each one had sensible, unique reactions to each of your abilities. I can't vault over this guy because he'll knock me off with his staff. I can't counter this guy because his attack breaks my block.

    Warrior Within kind of dropped all that. It had a giant combo list, but most of the combos were, for all intents and purposes, completely interchangeable, with the only difference between them being that each enemy type had a random assortment of combos that it was immune or weak to. I found it incredibly tedious to work through which combo to use on X enemy with Y health when there was no reasonable correlation between what was effective and how an enemy reacted. Or didn't react. There tended to be zero indication on how much damage a combo was doing to a particular enemy beyond it either dying instantly or taking punishment for ten minutes straight. Occasionally, you'd know not to use a certain combo because they'd block all of your strikes. But then again, they'd also block all of your strikes for other reasons that may not be immediately apparent. It all just felt completely arbitrary, and that gives a player little reason to want to invest effort in it.

    PoP '08 had great combat because it fit into that game's style very well. It wasn't deep, but it wasn't intended to be. It functioned intuitively, it allowed for some experimentation with chaining, and the visuals gave it a lot of tension. It was all very elegant. It just had a solid feel to it. Definitely moreso than the platforming did. There might not have been a lot of variety on the enemies, but they were all sufficiently unique from each other, from the alchemist that cycled states to the warrior that was invincible. The mechanics of the combat reacted to that in a sufficiently interesting and intuitive manner. Now, I have a bit of a different perspective on the optimal combo thing. Which is that if I figure out and apply the most effective strategy for a given situation, it's over real fast. I respect that as a design decision. All in all, it was just a fitting system for that particular game, and that's all it needed to be. And it looked good. It looked real good.

    PoP '08 also had a taunt button. It's been scientifically proven that a taunt button makes a combat system 56.7% more rewarding.

    Monger on
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    Doc HollidayDoc Holliday Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I liked the PoP battle system except for the fact that I felt disconnected from it more than I should have. It took many battles before I connected what my character was doing to the actual inputs I was giving him.

    Doc Holliday on
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    hatedinamericahatedinamerica Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I loved the 08 reboot (reboot? alternate universe? I don't know what to call it.), but it seems that alot of the people who hated it just missed the point.

    I will let you in on this secret for three easy payments of $19.99. Call now and I'll laugh derisively at you for free! WHAT A BARGAIN!


    ...sarcasm and Billy Mays channelling aside, the reason that you guys [makes broad, sweeping motion with both hands, encompassing every person everywhere] is that you just weren't stoned enough when you you played PoP'08; espescially the area with all the balloons and stuff on the cliffside. That shit was absolutely gorgeous.
    Also, your TV was probably not large or expensive enough.

    As a game, PoP'08 fails pretty spectacularly. As a piece of stoner pop-art, however, it shines like a ten-ton diamond.

    hatedinamerica on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    RE: Nightslyr's post:

    Nightslyr wrote: »
    It's more like a rhythm game than anything else. Think of Rock Band, on easy, while playing Eye of the Tiger, with swords and magic involved somehow. Embarrassingly easy, where mistakes stem from not paying attention rather than difficulty.

    I don't really like this analogy, even when you qualify it as embarrassingly easy. The platforming in POP08 is very much a string of button presses that fed to you one at a time for a few buttons. But comparing to a rhythm game implies that there requires some sort of semblance of timing or precision at all; when, in fact, with POP08, once you see the iron ring coming up, you are free to mash Circle as many times as you like, as fast as you like, until the Prince grabs ahold of the ring and moves on.

    It would be more like Rock Band, Easy, Eye of the Tiger, except each time a note comes up you can hold and strum that note as early or late as you like and as many times as you like without adverse consequences before moving onto the next note.
    It's also surprisingly linear. There's no real exploration to speak of, and only a couple of ways to travel from stage to stage. At least in AC one could really explore the cities. Not so, here. If you move off the path, Elika will warp you back on. Even in places where it looks like there's solid ground (I'm looking at you, cleared Hunter stages...don't tease me with a nice sandy shore if I can't get down there).

    Linear or not doesn't really matter. PoP Sands of Time and Two Thrones were linear and they were fantastic.

    Doing the game in a hub world tries to make it nonlinear, but it ultimately doesn't matter for the reason your picking out here.

    It's great that you can pick which order of levels to do, but each of the levels are really just chains of button presses that take you from A to B and there's very little in the way of figuring anything out. You may always have to go from A to B in POP Sands or Two Thrones, but there is some creativity in figuring out how to get there. In POP08, you pick your level, and then enter the same kind of repetitive chain of loose button pressing that you've done all along and it requires virtually no thinking and virtually no skill whatsoever.
    Aside from the graphics, I found it craptacular all around.

    I agree that the graphics were fantastic. The music was also good, but even then it wasn't varied enough.


    tl;dr - I essentially agree, although I'd qualify the "rhythm game" analogy further.

    slash000 on
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    InkSplatInkSplat 100%ed Bad Rats. Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Why do games have to be hard or complicated to be good?

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Why do games have to be hard or complicated to be good?

    Because unless a game is a pure sandbox experience (EG purely explorative interaction) with a truly jawdropping plot, then a certain level of challenge and depth allows people satisfaction by learning. People like learning. If there's nothing to learn, they get bitchy.

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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I don't know, PoP2008 was just a relaxing game to play. I'm up for that kind of experience now and then.

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    InkSplatInkSplat 100%ed Bad Rats. Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Why do games have to be hard or complicated to be good?

    Because unless a game is a pure sandbox experience (EG purely explorative interaction) with a truly jawdropping plot, then a certain level of challenge and depth allows people satisfaction by learning. People like learning. If there's nothing to learn, they get bitchy.

    That's bizarre.

    InkSplat on
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    baudattitudebaudattitude Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    SoT doesn't need another sequel, it didn't even need the first two. It was the closest thing to a perfect game I've ever played, and it took less than an hour of Warrior Within to realize that all it was doing was tainting my memories of the first.

    PoP 2008, while a vastly different game, was still enjoyable, even with the hand holding. It's also one of the few games that my wife has enjoyed watching to the point where I was under orders not to boot it up without her around. So it gets extra points from me there. If they're abandoning it completely, I'm going to be right vexed.

    baudattitude on
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    The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I don't know, PoP2008 was just a relaxing game to play. I'm up for that kind of experience now and then.

    Pretty much this.

    Also I have to disagree with the notion that the entire game was a sequence of button presses that required no thought or skill.

    There are a lot of sequences that are timed and/or twitch based, like the Green plates for example; or when you are being chased by bugs/in poison air, and the way further isn't always readily obvious. You can easily miss jumps, mistime double jumps/walljumps, etc.

    The idea that somehow Elika saving you makes the game simple is dumb. As many people have pointed out it's a checkpoint system. Yes, the "checkpoint" is often the previous ledge or just having an enemy regain health but if you want to play the game smoothly or get the die less than 100 times achievement you have to actually be precise in your playing. You can't just spam shit and finish the game. Often where you start back from can be a significant distance; particularly in the Epilogue. This isn't inherently different from every other platformer in existence. Most modern ones have checkpoints/continues that function effectively the exact same way it just takes you out of the game more and tends to be a more irritating method of punishment in a game, which the validity of that trope is highly debatable.

    Also, if you take the time to find all 1001 orbs there is a lot of exploring to do outside of the linear story that only requires about half of those to finish that is more than just getting from A > B, rinse repeat.

    In summary I find a lot of the complaints about certain aspects of the game to be pretty trite. Obviously the game isn't remotely perfect but it does a lot of things well; it just does other things in a way that wasn't tried before and as most people who have been gaming a long time know; gamers don't like change.

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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    RE: Monger's response on Combat
    Monger wrote: »
    slash000 wrote: »
    Monger wrote: »
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.
    Is that sarcams? PoP 08 has terrible combat. Every fight is almost identical, relying on the exact same tricks and strategies and initiating the exact same combos. I felt like there was a single enemy in the game, and a couple of different bosses. You just played these several times over the course of the game.
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.

    wat

    There is one optimal combo

    And er, that's the entirety of the combat summed up.

    In WW you had so many different options, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. I mean, the idea that the combats are even comparable confuses me.
    Okay. I'll explain. First of all, those two combat systems aren't comparable. I'm not comparing them. I'm judging them on contextual merits.

    SoT's combat was very defensive and very methodical, like AC's combat. I'm excluding people that did nothing but counter in either of those games, seeing as they are chumps. SoT's combat was very much about positioning yourself properly and waiting for the correct opportunity to strike, as well as finding the correct way to approach each individual enemy, as each one had sensible, unique reactions to each of your abilities. I can't vault over this guy because he'll knock me off with his staff. I can't counter this guy because his attack breaks my block.

    Warrior Within kind of dropped all that. It had a giant combo list, but most of the combos were, for all intents and purposes, completely interchangeable, with the only difference between them being that each enemy type had a random assortment of combos that it was immune or weak to. I found it incredibly tedious to work through which combo to use on X enemy with Y health when there was no reasonable correlation between what was effective and how an enemy reacted. Or didn't react. There tended to be zero indication on how much damage a combo was doing to a particular enemy beyond it either dying instantly or taking punishment for ten minutes straight. Occasionally, you'd know not to use a certain combo because they'd block all of your strikes. But then again, they'd also block all of your strikes for other reasons that may not be immediately apparent. It all just felt completely arbitrary, and that gives a player little reason to want to invest effort in it.

    PoP '08 had great combat because it fit into that game's style very well. It wasn't deep, but it wasn't intended to be. It functioned intuitively, it allowed for some experimentation with chaining, and the visuals gave it a lot of tension. It was all very elegant. It just had a solid feel to it. Definitely moreso than the platforming did. There might not have been a lot of variety on the enemies, but they were all sufficiently unique from each other, from the alchemist that cycled states to the warrior that was invincible. The mechanics of the combat reacted to that in a sufficiently interesting and intuitive manner. Now, I have a bit of a different perspective on the optimal combo thing. Which is that if I figure out and apply the most effective strategy for a given situation, it's over real fast. I respect that as a design decision. All in all, it was just a fitting system for that particular game, and that's all it needed to be. And it looked good. It looked real good.

    I agree with that Warrior Within's combat could get tedious at times. But at least it was somewhat varied. My problem with it was that there was simply too much of it, for the most part, otherwise I kinda agree with your assessment of WW's combat.

    My disagreement was your statement that POP08's combat was great. I agree that it wasn't deep; it was shallow and unrewarding. There was little point in experimenting with combos; it's easy to find a decently powerful one and just use that the rest of the game. There is no strategy as far as your offense; pick a good combo and you're good for the whole entire game. The enemies were not varied at all. Besides the level basic enemies which are all the same guy, you only had a couple off boss types. They may look or sound different, but ultimately you get away with the same 2 basic moves and strategies every single encounter. If it's a design decision to basically let you use the same optimal combo for every encounter in the game and never stray from the same couple of basic strategies, then it's a design decision to encourage repetitiveness/shallowness/lack of thinking in the gameplay.

    As far as it looking good, well, I agree that the graphics in the game are beautiful. But that didn't help the combat feel any less repetitive, shallow, and ultimately kinda boring.

    slash000 on
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    curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    i'm really thinking it's just a reboot of the SoT series to make it coincide with the movie.

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    Doc HollidayDoc Holliday Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    i'm really thinking it's just a reboot of the SoT series to make it coincide with the movie.

    Maybe a prequel that ties into the plot of the movie?

    Either way an HD Sands of Time game sounds good to me.

    Doc Holliday on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I don't know, PoP2008 was just a relaxing game to play. I'm up for that kind of experience now and then.

    Pretty much this.
    I'm all for relaxing laid back games. If people enjoyed it for this reason, good for them.

    Personally I can take a relaxing, easy game every now and then.

    However most of the relaxing, easy games I enjoy typically have some kind of rewarding aspect to them..
    Also I have to disagree with the notion that the entire game was a sequence of button presses that required no thought or skill.

    There are a lot of sequences that are timed and/or twitch based, like the Green plates for example; or when you are being chased by bugs/in poison air, and the way further isn't always readily obvious. You can easily miss jumps, mistime double jumps/walljumps, etc.


    I never noticed an issue with the bugs or poison; I thought that was just for show. I guess it never affected me since I was just moving from one linear chain of button sequences to the next before being affected by it. I suppose there was a time where you had to do one of those dreadful "line up the symbol" puzzles with poison or something, but I've never really enjoyed those.

    Green plates were the only thing in the entire game that wasn't mostly a button mash, because you have to move left and right to avoid obstacles. I suppose the flight thing was sort of like this though, moving left and right or up and down when flying.

    I rarely missed a double jump because the screen starts to gray when you're not going to make it. And you have such an enormous window of opportunity to hit the Elika button in that time that it really doesn't require much skill to hit the button like any other button in the chain of button pressing sequences.

    The only times I did miss a double jump was after some prolonged sequence of having Elika fly me from plate to plate until my mind was sufficiently numbed not to notice the graying of the screen at the end. And then I got to repeat the entire mindnumbing flight sequence because I missed that jump... It'd have been nice to have the time reversal ability of Sands, so I could just redo that one move, but instead I have to back to the beginning of the flight from pad to pad, mind numbingly mashing that elika button until I float through that portion of the level to the one time at the end that requires a jump.


    The idea that somehow Elika saving you makes the game simple is dumb. As many people have pointed out it's a checkpoint system. Yes, the "checkpoint" is often the previous ledge or just having an enemy regain health but if you want to play the game smoothly or get the die less than 100 times achievement you have to actually be precise in your playing. You can't just spam shit and finish the game. Often where you start back from can be a significant distance; particularly in the Epilogue. This isn't inherently different from every other platformer in existence. Most modern ones have checkpoints/continues that function effectively the exact same way it just takes you out of the game more and tends to be a more irritating method of punishment in a game, which the validity of that trope is highly debatable.

    Nobody is complaining about Elika the save point system. People are complaining about the other dumb aspects of Elika.

    Also, if you take the time to find all 1001 orbs there is a lot of exploring to do outside of the linear story that only requires about half of those to finish that is more than just getting from A > B, rinse repeat.

    For some, being forced to get those orbs was an obviously arbitrary task given to the player during the game because.. well, there didn't seem to be much point except to force the player to do more within the levels. And the platforming wasn't satisfying enough to justify doing so. Especially when grabbing some was as simple as leaping off a cliff.

    Doing some arbitrary task like that felt a chore because it seemed so meaningless in the game.

    I'm not against having fun little additional tasks though. Enjoy grabbing orbs in the end if you like. The problem people had was that it felt kind of pointless. I guess if you enjoy the platforming enough then getting orbs should be fun.
    In summary I find a lot of the complaints about certain aspects of the game to be pretty trite. Obviously the game isn't remotely perfect but it does a lot of things well; it just does other things in a way that wasn't tried before and as most people who have been gaming a long time know; gamers don't like change.

    I love new things and variety. However, I don't enjoy things merely because they are new; they have to be executed in a way that is fun. The problem with most people that played this game is not that it is different, but that it is boring.

    slash000 on
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Press X to do everything.

    Anyway, I really hope they don't fuck up the SoT trilogy with Forgotten Sands. Is it really going to be presented as like, side stories that the Prince forgot to tell us?

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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I don't know, PoP2008 was just a relaxing game to play. I'm up for that kind of experience now and then.

    Pretty much this.
    I'm all for relaxing laid back games. If people enjoyed it for this reason, good for them.

    Personally I can take a relaxing, easy game every now and then.

    However most of the relaxing, easy games I enjoy typically have some kind of rewarding aspect to them..
    Also I have to disagree with the notion that the entire game was a sequence of button presses that required no thought or skill.

    There are a lot of sequences that are timed and/or twitch based, like the Green plates for example; or when you are being chased by bugs/in poison air, and the way further isn't always readily obvious. You can easily miss jumps, mistime double jumps/walljumps, etc.


    I never noticed an issue with the bugs or poison; I thought that was just for show. I guess it never affected me since I was just moving from one linear chain of button sequences to the next before being affected by it. I suppose there was a time where you had to do one of those dreadful "line up the symbol" puzzles with poison or something, but I've never really enjoyed those.

    I rarely missed a double jump because the screen starts to gray when you're not going to make it. And you have such an enormous window of opportunity to hit the Elika button in that time that it really doesn't require much skill to hit the button like any other button in the chain of button pressing sequences.

    The only times I did miss a double jump was after some prolonged sequence of having Elika fly me from plate to plate until my mind was sufficiently numbed not to notice the graying of the screen at the end. And then I got to repeat the entire mindnumbing flight sequence because I missed that jump... It'd have been nice to have the time reversal ability of Sands, so I could just redo that one move, but instead I have to back to the beginning of the flight from pad to pad, mind numbingly mashing that elika button until I float through that portion of the level to the one time at the end that requires a jump.


    The idea that somehow Elika saving you makes the game simple is dumb. As many people have pointed out it's a checkpoint system. Yes, the "checkpoint" is often the previous ledge or just having an enemy regain health but if you want to play the game smoothly or get the die less than 100 times achievement you have to actually be precise in your playing. You can't just spam shit and finish the game. Often where you start back from can be a significant distance; particularly in the Epilogue. This isn't inherently different from every other platformer in existence. Most modern ones have checkpoints/continues that function effectively the exact same way it just takes you out of the game more and tends to be a more irritating method of punishment in a game, which the validity of that trope is highly debatable.

    Nobody is complaining about Elika the save point system. People are complaining about the other dumb aspects of Elika.

    Also, if you take the time to find all 1001 orbs there is a lot of exploring to do outside of the linear story that only requires about half of those to finish that is more than just getting from A > B, rinse repeat.

    For some, being forced to get those orbs was an obviously arbitrary task given to the player during the game because.. well, there didn't seem to be much point except to force the player to do more within the levels. And the platforming wasn't satisfying enough to justify doing so. Especially when grabbing some was as simple as leaping off a cliff.

    Doing some arbitrary task like that felt a chore because it seemed so meaningless in the game.

    I'm not against having fun little additional tasks though. Enjoy grabbing orbs in the end if you like. The problem people had was that it felt kind of pointless. I guess if you enjoy the platforming enough then getting orbs should be fun.
    In summary I find a lot of the complaints about certain aspects of the game to be pretty trite. Obviously the game isn't remotely perfect but it does a lot of things well; it just does other things in a way that wasn't tried before and as most people who have been gaming a long time know; gamers don't like change.

    I love new things and variety. However, I don't enjoy things merely because they are new; they have to be executed in a way that is fun. The problem with most people that played this game is not that it is different, but that it is boring.
    Maybe I am remembering wrong, but it didn't feel like you really had to go out of your way to pick up the amount of light seeds that you had to have to drive the story forward.

    jclast on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    jclast wrote: »
    Maybe I am remembering wrong, but it didn't feel like you really had to go out of your way to pick up the amount of light seeds that you had to have to drive the story forward.

    A lot of light seeds were on the path that you were already taking, but you definitely had to go off the path to pick up some in the second half of the game to start meeting the requirements to get new god abilities.

    slash000 on
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    plufimplufim Dr Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    LewieP wrote: »
    Oh hey, imagine if they did SOT trilogy with extra pretties on 360/PS3.

    1080p, 60hz, some work on the models and textures, and some nice special effects, and maybe some extra gameplay, and now you're talking.

    If this was the case, oh my god yes. Even if it's not, I hope Ubisoft are paying close attention to the GoW collection.

    Given the timing though, I'm pretty certain this is being positioned as a tie in to the movie (which I'm looking forward to). Roughly the same release date, and it's going "back" to the sands prince.

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I was actually quite annoyed by the Elika mechanic. They took one of the most ineresting mistake-correcting mechanics ever put into a game (the sands), that even let you reverse combat mistakes and replaced it. That's one of the things that truly baffles me.

    surrealitycheck on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I was actually quite annoyed by the Elika mechanic. They took one of the most ineresting mistake-correcting mechanics ever put into a game (the sands), that even let you reverse combat mistakes and replaced it. That's one of the things that truly baffles me.

    I was glad that they abandoned the sands. Yes, they were great, and I loved the sands trilogy, but PoP, at a high level, seems to be about reinvention. PoP Classic doesn't have the sands, and it is awesome.

    jclast on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    RE: Monger's response on Combat
    Monger wrote: »
    slash000 wrote: »
    Monger wrote: »
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.
    Is that sarcams? PoP 08 has terrible combat. Every fight is almost identical, relying on the exact same tricks and strategies and initiating the exact same combos. I felt like there was a single enemy in the game, and a couple of different bosses. You just played these several times over the course of the game.
    Man, I loathed Warrior Within's combat. The only thing Two Thrones did to fix it was give you a QTE that let you skip it. Now, the new one. That one had great combat.

    wat

    There is one optimal combo

    And er, that's the entirety of the combat summed up.

    In WW you had so many different options, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. I mean, the idea that the combats are even comparable confuses me.
    Okay. I'll explain. First of all, those two combat systems aren't comparable. I'm not comparing them. I'm judging them on contextual merits.

    SoT's combat was very defensive and very methodical, like AC's combat. I'm excluding people that did nothing but counter in either of those games, seeing as they are chumps. SoT's combat was very much about positioning yourself properly and waiting for the correct opportunity to strike, as well as finding the correct way to approach each individual enemy, as each one had sensible, unique reactions to each of your abilities. I can't vault over this guy because he'll knock me off with his staff. I can't counter this guy because his attack breaks my block.

    Warrior Within kind of dropped all that. It had a giant combo list, but most of the combos were, for all intents and purposes, completely interchangeable, with the only difference between them being that each enemy type had a random assortment of combos that it was immune or weak to. I found it incredibly tedious to work through which combo to use on X enemy with Y health when there was no reasonable correlation between what was effective and how an enemy reacted. Or didn't react. There tended to be zero indication on how much damage a combo was doing to a particular enemy beyond it either dying instantly or taking punishment for ten minutes straight. Occasionally, you'd know not to use a certain combo because they'd block all of your strikes. But then again, they'd also block all of your strikes for other reasons that may not be immediately apparent. It all just felt completely arbitrary, and that gives a player little reason to want to invest effort in it.

    PoP '08 had great combat because it fit into that game's style very well. It wasn't deep, but it wasn't intended to be. It functioned intuitively, it allowed for some experimentation with chaining, and the visuals gave it a lot of tension. It was all very elegant. It just had a solid feel to it. Definitely moreso than the platforming did. There might not have been a lot of variety on the enemies, but they were all sufficiently unique from each other, from the alchemist that cycled states to the warrior that was invincible. The mechanics of the combat reacted to that in a sufficiently interesting and intuitive manner. Now, I have a bit of a different perspective on the optimal combo thing. Which is that if I figure out and apply the most effective strategy for a given situation, it's over real fast. I respect that as a design decision. All in all, it was just a fitting system for that particular game, and that's all it needed to be. And it looked good. It looked real good.

    I agree with that Warrior Within's combat could get tedious at times. But at least it was somewhat varied. My problem with it was that there was simply too much of it, for the most part, otherwise I kinda agree with your assessment of WW's combat.

    My disagreement was your statement that POP08's combat was great. I agree that it wasn't deep; it was shallow and unrewarding. There was little point in experimenting with combos; it's easy to find a decently powerful one and just use that the rest of the game. There is no strategy as far as your offense; pick a good combo and you're good for the whole entire game. The enemies were not varied at all. Besides the level basic enemies which are all the same guy, you only had a couple off boss types. They may look or sound different, but ultimately you get away with the same 2 basic moves and strategies every single encounter. If it's a design decision to basically let you use the same optimal combo for every encounter in the game and never stray from the same couple of basic strategies, then it's a design decision to encourage repetitiveness/shallowness/lack of thinking in the gameplay.

    As far as it looking good, well, I agree that the graphics in the game are beautiful. But that didn't help the combat feel any less repetitive, shallow, and ultimately kinda boring.
    I don't know if I agree that the combat was unrewarding. I mean, for the type of game that it is, the visual feedback is a pretty nice reward. And the fact that it never holds you up for more than a minute once you figure it out. That's a pretty damn good reward compared to your average shallow combat system.

    It also had a taunt button. Are you aware of how much more rewarding a taunt button will make a combat system? 167.3%. It's scientifically proven.

    Monger on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I was actually quite annoyed by the Elika mechanic. They took one of the most ineresting mistake-correcting mechanics ever put into a game (the sands), that even let you reverse combat mistakes and replaced it. That's one of the things that truly baffles me.

    I can understand them wanting to make a new game that's not just another Sands game.

    But instead all they did was take the Sands games, remove everything that made them fun and rewarding, and then fail to improve anything that needed work.

    It didn't have to be another Sands time-warping based game. It just had to be something fun and not boring and needlessly shallow.

    Even when it's meant to be a laid back, relaxing "experience" it's got to do something that keeps your interest.

    slash000 on
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    OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    God damn it. The 2008 PoP was one of my favorite games of the year, and I'd been dying for a sequel.

    I'm afraid this doesn't count, since it was the story I was interested in.

    OremLK on
    My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Monger wrote: »
    I don't know if I agree that the combat was unrewarding. I mean, for the type of game that it is, the visual feedback is a pretty nice reward. And the fact that it never holds you up for more than a minute once you figure it out. That's a pretty damn good reward compared to your average shallow combat system.

    It also had a taunt button. Are you aware of how much more rewarding a taunt button will make a combat system? 167.3%. It's scientifically proven.

    Naw, the graphics didn't really make doing the same thing rewarding. And it held you up for more than a minute for boss battles, which were very repetitive / same tactics / same combo kind of thing.

    I'm just glad there were times I could insta-kill the enemies by sneaking up on them.

    slash000 on
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    HenryVapeHenryVape Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    If i remember right(and wikipedia is not lying to me), theres quite a big timegap between sands of time and Warrior within, im guessing theyll probably place the game in that gap somewhere.

    HenryVape on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    Monger wrote: »
    I don't know if I agree that the combat was unrewarding. I mean, for the type of game that it is, the visual feedback is a pretty nice reward. And the fact that it never holds you up for more than a minute once you figure it out. That's a pretty damn good reward compared to your average shallow combat system.

    It also had a taunt button. Are you aware of how much more rewarding a taunt button will make a combat system? 167.3%. It's scientifically proven.

    Naw, the graphics didn't really make doing the same thing rewarding. And it held you up for more than a minute for boss battles, which were very repetitive / same tactics / same combo kind of thing.

    I'm just glad there were times I could insta-kill the enemies by sneaking up on them.
    I don't know, man. I ended some of those boss battles real fast.

    Monger on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    i disliked the newest PoP game because it felt too much like a gimme game, i never had to really work or think to solve a goal, just run endlessly forwards and upwards.
    now, with the return to the older series i hope the puzzles, the time mechanic, and the combat make it into this new game. the pretty clearly tried to plop PoP into the assasin's creed engine, which did not work for them. i would hope they build a new engine for this game, and possibly add in some new powers, like maybe slowing time down or fast-forwarding (i've been playing braid...)
    the strength of the sands of time was figuring out the puzzles and doing them in style, fighting some sand demons and then generally looking badass the whole time

    Local H Jay on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I just have to chime in again that anyone who didn't like the VA of PoP2k8 is a horrible person with no taste.

    The characters and Voice acting were awesome.

    Khavall on
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    CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I definitely think this is happening because of the movie. They clearly want to focus on that particular character, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up actually looking vaguely like Jake Gyllenhaal this time. But that's as far as it'll go, I think. It's for sheer brand recognition purposes, as I sincerely doubt it will sell more copies based on its game-canon.

    But, whatever, I don't think it's a bad reason, as long as the game ends up having its own identity.

    Cherrn on
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Gameplay aside, PoP was visually breathtaking pretty much from start to finish.

    To me, that counts. If a game lacks in some areas but excels in others then I still give it credit. PoP was an absolute feast for the eyes and just looks so damn good that I can forgive all of its mechanical faults.

    The_Scarab on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I am not even remotely excited by this. Sands of Time was excellent but it was nothing but poop after that.

    AbsoluteZero on
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    StigmaStigma Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Cherrn wrote: »
    I definitely think this is happening because of the movie. They clearly want to focus on that particular character, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up actually looking vaguely like Jake Gyllenhaal this time. But that's as far as it'll go, I think. It's for sheer brand recognition purposes, as I sincerely doubt it will sell more copies based on its game-canon.

    But, whatever, I don't think it's a bad reason, as long as the game ends up having its own identity.

    I hope it doesn't have an identity and is just Sands of Time HD.
    I'm the worst.

    Stigma on
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    ZxerolZxerol for the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't do so i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    When I heard POP08 was using the Assassin's Creed engine, I was pretty, "Hell yes, just like I wanted!" Excited. Too bad they didn't even use best feature of the engine! (i.e. the freerunning)

    Although I was damned entranced with the visual style of the game. At least in the beginning, and in the end even it couldn't drive me to actually finish the game. New PoP? Pure indifference. If it's going to be another pretty game with milquetoast gameplay, I'm going to pass without a thought.

    Zxerol on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    a game could look like an amazing piece of art, and i wouldn't waste my time on it if it played like crap
    hence why i never got past the first few stages in PoP2k8

    since games usually have to be fun to hold my attention

    Local H Jay on
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