I can have a gearscore of over 9000 and be in all caster cloth on my warrior.
Where does your GS addon show you that I make actual choices in what i use, and not just pick the thing with the highest ilvl. GS shows nothing but ilvl + if its enchanted or not. It doesn't take into effect any stats. You can have everything enchanted with spell power and spirit on your deathknight and get the exact same gearscore as another DK who enchants/gems properly.
It shows nothing but how many badges they've farmed basically, or if they are a fresh 80. If you need an addon to tell you the guy in greens and blues is fresh, then really, there should be an addon to keep you out of other peoples groups.
(you in the general sense, not you specifically Wolfman)
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
I was tanking heroics with 21k hp when I first hit 80.
I think you'll be okay, Javen.
I started leveling my hunter again and I've found I can do roughly 1700 sustained dps on him. At level 75.
I have no idea how I meet some 80s that can't top that.
The worst is I was doing a random mana tombs on my 66 dk. He's blood spec. Exists solely for mining and herbalism. Has mostly DK starting gear, the polearm from Ramparts, and a green quest helm with 3 sockets, that I put some northrend gems in. I was doing 800 dps. I've run with hunters in all 170+ gear that did less. o_O
And then last night in heroic UP was DPSing on my paladin. My gear is ok, mostly a mix of castoffs that no one else wants since my pally only gets to heal in raids. But it's all 219-232 with a few exceptions. And the Edge of Agony from Heroic ToC10. Somehow, I have 3 expertise without seal of corruption on. I normally have Command up on trash, and on the 2nd to last pull before Ymiron, I ran in Divine storm. The whole pack parries. Judge hits, Crusader strike and melee parried. Consecrate. Exorcism. Crusader strike parried. Divine storm 2 of 3 hits parried and melee hits.
I ended up doing like 500 dps on that pack
Any particular reason you weren't behind the mobs?
Smasher on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
anyone who uses gearscore, or worse, makes reference to it as a basis for anything, needs to just go fuck off and uninstall the game.
Is there any concrete evidence or articles that prove this? I just found out that 2 guild members actually use this mod. They're halfway decent guys, but when I tried to explain why it's garbage, they just shruged at me, and I didn't really have any proof or ammuniton on hand to show why.
I don't wanna destroy them utterly because they are nice guys, but something like a page to show them WHY they should not rely on this mod would be nice.
the reason gearscore is useless is not because rating someone's gear is not a good thing to do, but because it fails utterly at that task.
if you're in a situation where you need to rate someone's gear, just having a total of their ilevel tells you nothing. you're going to need to inspect them or their armoury anyway, so you might as well not even use gearscore and just inspect them.
Once you know where to stand to los everything, it becomes hilariously easy (hint; In the alcoves behind falric/marwyn there are outcropped walls you can all huddle behind to make everything come to you). Was tanking on my alt paladin who was rocking 33k hp buffed who outdps all the other dps (though just barely) and we still did it, though the last wall was super close, he was all of 2 seconds away before putting us in the aura.
Or alternately, as Jaef suggested, have a priest/paladin CC one of the ranged and drag the melee onto the other if there is one. That's how we would do it before some pug pointed out where to los .
LOS still doesn't make it easy.
Honestly as the tank I think it would be easier to stand in the middle. At least then I could see what the hell was going on.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
So, does that imply that there's some formula by which you CAN mathematically rate someone's gear? Something that looks at the class, the spec, the gear, the gems, the enchants, rolls it all around through a series of EJ spreadsheets and comes out with a good number?
So, does that imply that there's some formula by which you CAN mathematically rate someone's gear? Something that looks at the class, the spec, the gear, the gems, the enchants, rolls it all around through a series of EJ spreadsheets and comes out with a good number?
it would seem to be theoretically possible, but it would be hugely complicated.
Totally makes grouping fun again, and not a huge chore.
Seriously.
It also seems to match me with similar geared players. The ~5min wait as a DPS is pretty awesome as well.
yeah i queue on my main and wait five to ten minutes but if i queue up my druid who can queue as heals/tank/dps instead of just dps i get instant groups all day and all night
it would seem to be theoretically possible, but it would be hugely complicated.
Rawr is the closest thing I can think of that takes into account everything. Of course that's an offline program and not a mod, nor does it try to distill you down to one number to be compared to every other possible role in the game.
Opty on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Wait, wait, I thought of a use for gearscore.
When a PuG group asks for your gearscore, you know to avoid that PuG because they are clearly retarded. If they hadn't asked you wouldn't have known.
I have to wonder how Blizzard is going to handle this, honestly. Do they see it as a problem? More and more people are using that silly addon, but Blizzard can't break it unless they remove the ability to obtain item level information in-game. But I can't see them doing that.
Yeah, that's my litmus test for joining pugs. If I even play along enough to link the achievement et cetera and you respond with asking for my gearscore, thanks for saving me the headache I would have gotten being in your group.
Javen on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
I don't think they need to break it. It really isn't a problem.
Intelligent players realise that gearscore tells you nothing of value.
I have to wonder how Blizzard is going to handle this, honestly. Do they see it as a problem? More and more people are using that silly addon, but Blizzard can't break it unless they remove the ability to obtain item level information in-game. But I can't see them doing that.
I imagine they'll leave it as-is. It's really only affecting pugs at all, I would imagine it affects guild run raids not at all. And it hardly really affects pugs, either. You just see it so often because it's the same people spamming trade for four hours, because no one wants to be caught dead in their shitty gearscore group.
I actually saw a big thread on the UI forums the other day with people whining about addons that can create fake achievement links. Apparently it's too much trouble to just look a guy up on the armory, or better yet just inspect him in-game (inspections should really be possible across any distance, as long as you're grouped with the person), and make a very simple judgement call.
I have to wonder how Blizzard is going to handle this, honestly. Do they see it as a problem? More and more people are using that silly addon, but Blizzard can't break it unless they remove the ability to obtain item level information in-game. But I can't see them doing that.
I imagine they'll leave it as-is. It's really only affecting pugs at all, I would imagine it affects guild run raids not at all. And it hardly really affects pugs, either. You just see it so often because it's the same people spamming trade for four hours, because no one wants to be caught dead in their shitty gearscore group.
I'm inclined to believe that this is the case, but I don't have the actual numbers that Blizzard probably has. I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what happens when a significant portion of their playerbase (who run with pickup groups very often, if not almost exclusively) start to feel pressured.
Saeris on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
I actually find myself more flabbergasted by the people who install that mod than the people who install it and then demand to know gearscores for their pugs. I mean, at least the latter person is using the mod they installed...what do the others actually use it for?
I actually saw a big thread on the UI forums the other day with people whining about addons that can create fake achievement links. Apparently it's too much trouble to just look a guy up on the armory, or better yet just inspect him in-game (inspections should really be possible across any distance, as long as you're grouped with the person), and make a very simple judgement call.
I have to wonder how Blizzard is going to handle this, honestly. Do they see it as a problem? More and more people are using that silly addon, but Blizzard can't break it unless they remove the ability to obtain item level information in-game. But I can't see them doing that.
I imagine they'll leave it as-is. It's really only affecting pugs at all, I would imagine it affects guild run raids not at all. And it hardly really affects pugs, either. You just see it so often because it's the same people spamming trade for four hours, because no one wants to be caught dead in their shitty gearscore group.
I'm inclined to believe that this is the case, but I don't have the actual numbers that Blizzard probably has. I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what happens when a significant portion of their playerbase (who run with pickup groups very often, if not almost exclusively) start to feel pressured.
If that ever becomes the case, I suppose they'll fix it. It's what they've done in the past about lots of things. To their credit they're pretty good about adapting the game to outside influences. They either add it to the default UI themselves, or make it impossible to function. If it really gets that bad I assume they'll implement some sort of functionality to render the addon redundant. Unlimited range inspections are a pretty dated concept, actually. I mean as it stands you can inspect anyone in the game without even being logged into the game. I would imagine it's well within their power to do so, should they ever find the necessity.
It is worth noting, though, that with pugging more popular than ever, there should be ways of deciding who just is or isn't geared enough to perform up to par. They do have at least some infrastructure at work, as when I was gearing my deathknight I was queuing for specific heroics, only to find the Icecrown 5 mans excluded from the list because my gear wasn't good enough.
I spent most of Saturday night/Sunday morning in PuG's. I was trying to get the hang of a new spec (Disc priest who needed to go Holy for the first boss in PoS). I haven't run into any horrible people yet. I've even done Oculus. I love this patch so much.
It is worth noting, though, that with pugging more popular than ever, there should be ways of deciding who just is or isn't geared enough to perform up to par. They do have at least some infrastructure at work, as when I was gearing my deathknight I was queuing for specific heroics, only to find the Icecrown 5 mans excluded from the list because my gear wasn't good enough.
I just don't understand why though. I mean for raids, sure, you don't want mouth breathers. But heroics were balanced, for the most part, around a total group dps of maybe 7k (three 1,500 dps and 1k from a tank), a healer with a mana pool that maybe broke 15k, and a tank who is def capped and sitting on perhaps 22k hp. The levels of pug elitism for heroics just boggles my mind.
Frankly, I would lay the blame squarely at heroics dropping conquest badges, because I suspect that change brought a lot of raiders into the pug pool who wouldn't otherwise have been there who raised standards for idiots who now refuse to do heroics with people who still have some blues and greens.
It is worth noting, though, that with pugging more popular than ever, there should be ways of deciding who just is or isn't geared enough to perform up to par. They do have at least some infrastructure at work, as when I was gearing my deathknight I was queuing for specific heroics, only to find the Icecrown 5 mans excluded from the list because my gear wasn't good enough.
I just don't understand why though. I mean for raids, sure, you don't want mouth breathers. But heroics were balanced, for the most part, around a total group dps of maybe 7k (three 1,500 dps and 1k from a tank), a healer with a mana pool that maybe broke 15k, and a tank who is def capped and sitting on perhaps 22k hp. The levels of pug elitism for heroics just boggles my mind.
Frankly, I would lay the blame squarely at heroics dropping conquest badges, because I suspect that change brought a lot of raiders into the pug pool who wouldn't otherwise have been there who raised standards for idiots who now refuse to do heroics with people who still have some blues and greens.
The launch heroics, sure. But the icecrown dungeons were not meant for fresh 80s. Not even trial of the champion.
It is worth noting, though, that with pugging more popular than ever, there should be ways of deciding who just is or isn't geared enough to perform up to par. They do have at least some infrastructure at work, as when I was gearing my deathknight I was queuing for specific heroics, only to find the Icecrown 5 mans excluded from the list because my gear wasn't good enough.
I just don't understand why though. I mean for raids, sure, you don't want mouth breathers. But heroics were balanced, for the most part, around a total group dps of maybe 7k (three 1,500 dps and 1k from a tank), a healer with a mana pool that maybe broke 15k, and a tank who is def capped and sitting on perhaps 22k hp. The levels of pug elitism for heroics just boggles my mind.
Frankly, I would lay the blame squarely at heroics dropping conquest badges, because I suspect that change brought a lot of raiders into the pug pool who wouldn't otherwise have been there who raised standards for idiots who now refuse to do heroics with people who still have some blues and greens.
The launch heroics, sure. But the icecrown dungeons were not meant for fresh 80s. Not even trial of the champion.
Yes, but that's a small pool of instances a terrible noob can doom you. As an example, the other day I was tanking a violet hold with a DK friend of mine. We pugged a priest, a warlock, and a hunter. Right off the bat, the priest starts giving the 2 pugs shit for having scrub gear. The instance goes on and the priest says, "awesome, if there's one thing I love it's a dungeon where the tank is top dps." Which I was, barely ahead of my dk friend by maybe 100 dps on the overall, and nowhere near her on bosses. The hunter was doing 1500 dps, as I expect of fresh 80's, and the warlock was doing a staggering 400 dps. Not afk or anything, I saw him casting, he was doing things. I think by the end he had pushed his dps up to 700.
At any rate, we got through the instance, no wipes, took all of 20 minutes, but this priest was giving all the dps shit. Why? The instance went fine, you're never going to see these people again, and telling a complete stranger, hey you suck!" has never changed any minds. All you're doing is being a jerk, really. I mean, if we were wiping or the instance was taking forever, sure that's worth being mad over. Beind mad because I guess it wasn't going fast enough? What the hell ever.
Though I probably should have kicked tje lock. I was just too busy being blown away that somebody could put out those numbers unironicaly. Also he was a gnome with a lime green mohawk and facial hair, there was just something sureral about the whole thing. Like I was living some kind of internet meme.
I hate it when I get into a pug heroic and the tank is at around 25k. Not cause I think he they can't tank it, I tanked Wrath from the begining and know that 20k can handle the heroics, but because i know that means we'll be going slow. No pulling 2 to 3 groups at a time
And depending on if i'm playing my healer of dps I'll either have to hope the other DPs in the group aren't dumb and I have to constantly heal them because they don't understand a freshish 80 can't hold agro off their 6k dps single target, or that I have to hold back on my dps quite a bit. Sometimes I just dps entire instances in viper aspect so I don't need to worry about it (switching for bosses of course). But it's just easier that way.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
This morning I was in all greens and ilvl 150 blues, I snagged bracers from toc, since I have the shittiest luck there (this was last week) and was pulling 1700 in nexus and got a remark from an average paladin in toc gear.
Thankfully the run was almost over before he inspected me, and when he did say something the others pretty much agreed that "hey its fucking nexus, we were doing this stuff in kara gear."
Only time I had seen someone truly being snobby was at the last boss of UK when the douche noticed the hunter wasn't wearing a chest piece and kicked him 2 pulls from Ingvar.
There really needs to be a discouragement from outright kicking someone, like losing a % of the wildcard buff if you kick someone from the group.
Heres the thing I never got, you need gear from an instance (and from bottom of the barrel easy ass places) but get told you arnt geared enough, but when you outgear the instance what the hell do you go for?
The friggan catch 22 of elitists.
Also when joining pugs I toss on my ret gear to psych the people who just check my hp/gearscore since its about 2 tiers lower then whet we can get now.
There is a new tool to help people find groups for instances. You group with people cross server. Everyone signs up for a job, and when a tank, a healer and 3 desperate DPS are ready to go you all get portaled into an instance. Sometimes you choose the instance, but doing the random thing is more fun. (And more rewarding.)
I can have a gearscore of over 9000 and be in all caster cloth on my warrior.
Where does your GS addon show you that I make actual choices in what i use, and not just pick the thing with the highest ilvl. GS shows nothing but ilvl + if its enchanted or not. It doesn't take into effect any stats. You can have everything enchanted with spell power and spirit on your deathknight and get the exact same gearscore as another DK who enchants/gems properly.
It shows nothing but how many badges they've farmed basically, or if they are a fresh 80. If you need an addon to tell you the guy in greens and blues is fresh, then really, there should be an addon to keep you out of other peoples groups.
(you in the general sense, not you specifically Wolfman)
...if you've scanned someone with gearscore you can look at their gear. So that is what kind of tells you if they've farmed badges or not.
Oh, I'm sorry-I'm not going to do H HoL with a group of people in all blues. Just not going to happen.
Call me elitist, call me what you want-I'm just not going to fork over 100g on a repair bill for a heroic.
Crayon on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
Wait, how are those people supposed to get epics if they can't get into heroics? Only on ToC and ICC? So, before 3.2 nobody could do heroics ever?
And second: Why HoL? That never struck me as more difficult than other instances. HoL heroic is easier than HoR normal, I'd say.
Posts
Where does your GS addon show you that I make actual choices in what i use, and not just pick the thing with the highest ilvl. GS shows nothing but ilvl + if its enchanted or not. It doesn't take into effect any stats. You can have everything enchanted with spell power and spirit on your deathknight and get the exact same gearscore as another DK who enchants/gems properly.
It shows nothing but how many badges they've farmed basically, or if they are a fresh 80. If you need an addon to tell you the guy in greens and blues is fresh, then really, there should be an addon to keep you out of other peoples groups.
(you in the general sense, not you specifically Wolfman)
Totally makes grouping fun again, and not a huge chore.
Any particular reason you weren't behind the mobs?
the reason gearscore is useless is not because rating someone's gear is not a good thing to do, but because it fails utterly at that task.
if you're in a situation where you need to rate someone's gear, just having a total of their ilevel tells you nothing. you're going to need to inspect them or their armoury anyway, so you might as well not even use gearscore and just inspect them.
LOS still doesn't make it easy.
Honestly as the tank I think it would be easier to stand in the middle. At least then I could see what the hell was going on.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Seriously.
It also seems to match me with similar geared players. The ~5min wait as a DPS is pretty awesome as well.
it would seem to be theoretically possible, but it would be hugely complicated.
yeah i queue on my main and wait five to ten minutes but if i queue up my druid who can queue as heals/tank/dps instead of just dps i get instant groups all day and all night
When a PuG group asks for your gearscore, you know to avoid that PuG because they are clearly retarded. If they hadn't asked you wouldn't have known.
Intelligent players realise that gearscore tells you nothing of value.
I imagine they'll leave it as-is. It's really only affecting pugs at all, I would imagine it affects guild run raids not at all. And it hardly really affects pugs, either. You just see it so often because it's the same people spamming trade for four hours, because no one wants to be caught dead in their shitty gearscore group.
I'm inclined to believe that this is the case, but I don't have the actual numbers that Blizzard probably has. I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what happens when a significant portion of their playerbase (who run with pickup groups very often, if not almost exclusively) start to feel pressured.
If that ever becomes the case, I suppose they'll fix it. It's what they've done in the past about lots of things. To their credit they're pretty good about adapting the game to outside influences. They either add it to the default UI themselves, or make it impossible to function. If it really gets that bad I assume they'll implement some sort of functionality to render the addon redundant. Unlimited range inspections are a pretty dated concept, actually. I mean as it stands you can inspect anyone in the game without even being logged into the game. I would imagine it's well within their power to do so, should they ever find the necessity.
Steam Me
DPS take any damage? Greater Heal. Precast Greater Heal on the pull? Bet your ass she did.
By the end I was practically begging her for a Prayer of Mending or SOMETHING, just to say she tried.
Have a shitty druid in guild who we brought to ToC5 a while back, she only would cast nourish, no actual hots.
I just don't understand why though. I mean for raids, sure, you don't want mouth breathers. But heroics were balanced, for the most part, around a total group dps of maybe 7k (three 1,500 dps and 1k from a tank), a healer with a mana pool that maybe broke 15k, and a tank who is def capped and sitting on perhaps 22k hp. The levels of pug elitism for heroics just boggles my mind.
Frankly, I would lay the blame squarely at heroics dropping conquest badges, because I suspect that change brought a lot of raiders into the pug pool who wouldn't otherwise have been there who raised standards for idiots who now refuse to do heroics with people who still have some blues and greens.
LoL: failboattootoot
The launch heroics, sure. But the icecrown dungeons were not meant for fresh 80s. Not even trial of the champion.
Yes, but that's a small pool of instances a terrible noob can doom you. As an example, the other day I was tanking a violet hold with a DK friend of mine. We pugged a priest, a warlock, and a hunter. Right off the bat, the priest starts giving the 2 pugs shit for having scrub gear. The instance goes on and the priest says, "awesome, if there's one thing I love it's a dungeon where the tank is top dps." Which I was, barely ahead of my dk friend by maybe 100 dps on the overall, and nowhere near her on bosses. The hunter was doing 1500 dps, as I expect of fresh 80's, and the warlock was doing a staggering 400 dps. Not afk or anything, I saw him casting, he was doing things. I think by the end he had pushed his dps up to 700.
At any rate, we got through the instance, no wipes, took all of 20 minutes, but this priest was giving all the dps shit. Why? The instance went fine, you're never going to see these people again, and telling a complete stranger, hey you suck!" has never changed any minds. All you're doing is being a jerk, really. I mean, if we were wiping or the instance was taking forever, sure that's worth being mad over. Beind mad because I guess it wasn't going fast enough? What the hell ever.
Though I probably should have kicked tje lock. I was just too busy being blown away that somebody could put out those numbers unironicaly. Also he was a gnome with a lime green mohawk and facial hair, there was just something sureral about the whole thing. Like I was living some kind of internet meme.
LoL: failboattootoot
And depending on if i'm playing my healer of dps I'll either have to hope the other DPs in the group aren't dumb and I have to constantly heal them because they don't understand a freshish 80 can't hold agro off their 6k dps single target, or that I have to hold back on my dps quite a bit. Sometimes I just dps entire instances in viper aspect so I don't need to worry about it (switching for bosses of course). But it's just easier that way.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dath%27Remar&n=Kaleson
I got called undergeared for ICC Heroic.
Thankfully the run was almost over before he inspected me, and when he did say something the others pretty much agreed that "hey its fucking nexus, we were doing this stuff in kara gear."
Only time I had seen someone truly being snobby was at the last boss of UK when the douche noticed the hunter wasn't wearing a chest piece and kicked him 2 pulls from Ingvar.
There really needs to be a discouragement from outright kicking someone, like losing a % of the wildcard buff if you kick someone from the group.
Heres the thing I never got, you need gear from an instance (and from bottom of the barrel easy ass places) but get told you arnt geared enough, but when you outgear the instance what the hell do you go for?
The friggan catch 22 of elitists.
Also when joining pugs I toss on my ret gear to psych the people who just check my hp/gearscore since its about 2 tiers lower then whet we can get now.
There is a new tool to help people find groups for instances. You group with people cross server. Everyone signs up for a job, and when a tank, a healer and 3 desperate DPS are ready to go you all get portaled into an instance. Sometimes you choose the instance, but doing the random thing is more fun. (And more rewarding.)
Far too many people end up using it as the be all and end all for judging a players worth, however
My DK's gear is worse, and I tanked the first two quite comfortably.
Steam: pazython
...if you've scanned someone with gearscore you can look at their gear. So that is what kind of tells you if they've farmed badges or not.
Oh, I'm sorry-I'm not going to do H HoL with a group of people in all blues. Just not going to happen.
Call me elitist, call me what you want-I'm just not going to fork over 100g on a repair bill for a heroic.
And second: Why HoL? That never struck me as more difficult than other instances. HoL heroic is easier than HoR normal, I'd say.
I mean I had to solo maiden the other day cos everyone else was new and didn't know not to stand in black stuff
But still nothing is as badass as having 4 dead people cheering you on as you solo 300k life by yourself.
Yeah, HoL isn't really difficult by any scale.