As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
We're funding a new Acquisitions Incorporated series on Kickstarter right now! Check it out at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pennyarcade/acquisitions-incorporated-the-series-2

Mass Effect - We're getting closer. Label ME2 spoilers to help some folks out.

1474850525362

Posts

  • Frosty the Snow PlowFrosty the Snow Plow Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    He opens up a Kroger.

    (Seriously, every time I hear "Krogan", I think it's a race of retail supermarket workers.)

    Frosty the Snow Plow on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    God dammit.

    I live right next to a Kroger.

    Now I can't even think about it without smiling.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Wrex kills Anderson.

    Fiaryn on
    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
    White FC: 0819 3350 1787
  • Wet BanditWet Bandit Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Wet Bandit wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    When your options are "blue," "red" and "failure," it's pretty difficult to set up a game that doesn't encourage a blue/red dichotomy.

    Dragon age did a really good job of avoiding that pitfall by just removing the colors, though

    Yeah, Dragon Age and ME1 are pretty much on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Dragon Age just has a general persuasiveness skill, and that's it. ME1, though, has:

    - paragon/renegade bars color-coded with typical good guy/bad guy coloring
    - separate charm/intimidate skills that encourage going for one or the other
    - achievements that are only unlocked by doing enough of one or the other
    - in-game rewards that are unlocked by continually doing more paragon or renegade actions

    I mean, it's like, they went out of their way to not avoid the pitfall they're talking about.

    I don't think you're quite clear on what Hudson was talking about. He's not saying there won't be Paragon/Renegade decisions, he's saying that "paragon" and "renegade" aren't going to be synonymous with "good" and "evil." You're supposed to be a good guy no matter what, just with a focus tilted towards either cooperation and consensus or efficiency and pragmatism.

    I read it as being more a statement about wanting players to think about what their character would do, not whether they had made a predetermined decision to pick the good or evil or nice or jerk options.

    Exactly, and my point is they added numerous elements into the game that caused many players to not think about what their character would do, but what they wanted to do in the game on that playthrough. In other words, if you don't want players to game the system, don't turn the system into a game, and that's exactly what they did with the paragon/renegade dynamic by having the separate skills, the tracking, the achievements, and the in-game bonuses.

    Wet Bandit on
  • Wet BanditWet Bandit Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    However, using DA:O as a guide, it's still pretty obvious what many responses are insofar as nice/jerk is concerned.

    But that's totally fine. Because they don't incentivize being nice as opposed to being a jerk, the player is free to choose the option they want for that particular situation.

    The problem isn't that those options exist, it's that ME1 is set up to encourage players to be one or the other. That's why players usually end up choosing a paragon or renegade playthrough as opposed to making the choices they think that particular character would.

    Wet Bandit on
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Wet Bandit wrote: »
    The problem isn't that those options exist, it's that ME1 is set up to encourage players to be one or the other. That's why players usually end up choosing a paragon or renegade playthrough as opposed to making the choices they think that particular character would.


    Lousy Neutrals

    225px-Neutral_President.jpg

    Egos on
  • DeaderinredDeaderinred Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Wet Bandit wrote: »
    However, using DA:O as a guide, it's still pretty obvious what many responses are insofar as nice/jerk is concerned.

    But that's totally fine. Because they don't incentivize being nice as opposed to being a jerk, the player is free to choose the option they want for that particular situation.

    The problem isn't that those options exist, it's that ME1 is set up to encourage players to be one or the other. That's why players usually end up choosing a paragon or renegade playthrough as opposed to making the choices they think that particular character would.

    you can still do that in me1, in fact thats what im doing now and it works so far.

    Deaderinred on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Yeah, seems to me that you're just getting too hang up on colors.

    Dragkonias on
  • Wet BanditWet Bandit Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Wet Bandit wrote: »
    However, using DA:O as a guide, it's still pretty obvious what many responses are insofar as nice/jerk is concerned.

    But that's totally fine. Because they don't incentivize being nice as opposed to being a jerk, the player is free to choose the option they want for that particular situation.

    The problem isn't that those options exist, it's that ME1 is set up to encourage players to be one or the other. That's why players usually end up choosing a paragon or renegade playthrough as opposed to making the choices they think that particular character would.

    you can still do that in me1, in fact thats what im doing now and it works so far.

    Of course you can. No one probably in the history of the world, let alone this thread, has said you can't.

    The point is, the game encourages players to pick paragon or renegade. It doesn't require it, it encourages it.

    Wet Bandit on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I ended up with about as much paragon as renegade on my first playthrough. I didn't even know you got bonuses or whatever for maxing one out of the other, that is unfair to us neutrals :(

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    Elendil on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    my god

    I stumbled upon a new Eden Prime sidequest where the nice little dockworker was actually a weapons smuggler. had gear on him too, but wanted to keep it instead of giving it to the soldiers protecting his ass

    my "paragon" shepard was pissed off

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • BlackDoveBlackDove Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Elendil wrote: »
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    But Renegade by definition is space hitler.

    BlackDove on
  • Frosty the Snow PlowFrosty the Snow Plow Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    4Guys1UP did a pretty long 45 minute segment on ME2 just yesterday at the beginning of the show, split in half between non-spoilers and spoilers, if anyone's interested.

    Frosty the Snow Plow on
  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    BlackDove wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    But Renegade by definition is space hitler.

    untrue!

    though it would appear that going that route isn't so much "renegade" as "ill-tempered paragon with an itchy trigger finger"

    Elendil on
  • KivutarKivutar Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    -Tal wrote: »
    my god

    I stumbled upon a new Eden Prime sidequest where the nice little dockworker was actually a weapons smuggler. had gear on him too, but wanted to keep it instead of giving it to the soldiers protecting his ass

    my "paragon" shepard was pissed off

    That's uh. That's not really a new quest. You just need to get the colonists hiding in the fancy shipping container to admit that their contact on the docks smuggles shit, then when you encounter him, you can demand he hand it over.

    Kivutar on
  • Frosty the Snow PlowFrosty the Snow Plow Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Well, the chance you can do that quest first playthroughs/NG+ playthroughs where you zoom through Eden Prime, it can come as a surprise.

    Frosty the Snow Plow on
  • BlackDoveBlackDove Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Elendil wrote: »
    BlackDove wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    But Renegade by definition is space hitler.

    untrue!

    though it would appear that going that route isn't so much "renegade" as "ill-tempered paragon with an itchy trigger finger"

    Ask yourself.

    Would the game be any different if the word Renegade was replaced with "Space Hitler"? So you can be Paragon or Space Hitler.

    I say no.

    BlackDove on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Yeah, I've played ME many many times but never come across that. I've actually met the colonists in the shipping container before, but I had already put my points into skills instead of charm/intimidate so didn't figure out the dockworker's name or get my fancy pistol/upgrades.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Elendil wrote: »
    BlackDove wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    But Renegade by definition is space hitler.

    untrue!

    though it would appear that going that route isn't so much "renegade" as "ill-tempered paragon with an itchy trigger finger"

    Think of it like this.


    Paragon is James Bond.

    Renegade is Jack Bauer.


    James Bond still kills dudes, still saves the day but he also goes out of his way to uphold the virtues of MI5. For example, he has a license to kill but always strives to knock guys out in a fistfight or apprehend the main villain. He confronts Blofeld, sure, but then he also drops him down a chimney. It's about end results through altruism and hands-off behaviour. With a License to Kill Bond only kills about two guys per movie (until you got to Dalton era). Classic Bond only used his gun when he absolutely exhausted all other options. That's Paragon.

    Jack Bauer on the other hand shoots his boss in the leg with a tranq gun his first goddamn day of work because he's sick and tired of dealing with his bullshit. He also carves out a guys eyeball before he interrogates him to speed up the process. Throughout his entire career he has the same end goal as James Bond, but the method he goes about it isn't 'space asshole'. It's 'IF I DON'T DO THIS RIGHT NOW MILLIONS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS WILL DIE'. That's Renegade. You pull a gun on Fist, you pull a gun on a number of people to skip the 'convincing them to talk' nonsense. You punch a woman in the face because she won't move out of your way and leave you alone, you even tell Saren to kill himself so you don't have to waste time doing it yourself.

    Renegade is all about urgency and avoiding needless 'video game bullshit', while Paragon was written as a hero who uses tact and thought to achieve whenever possible the same results without violence.


    What was missing from the game was consequences for either option. But that's the beauty. In ME2 we will have the consequences. If you couldn't be bothered dealing with Wrex on the beach and just had Ashley shoot him, the Krogan race are fractured and divided in ME2. Whereas if you upheld your virtues and talked him down, he's their king.

    Similarly, if you killed the Rachni queen then you'll probably not have to deal with them in ME2. Maybe they are enemies, maybe they're allies. But as a Renegade Spectre you don't have time to deal with that bullshit. You can't afford to take that chance.

    My hope is that for some of the main choices they put in real consequences in ME2. Ones that you don't expect. Some choices you made should make life easier, some should make things worse. Saving the council should provide more political stability in ME2, but it should also mean the human alliance is weaker because you lost more ships saving the Ascension.


    Without consequences for these choices, Paragon and Renegade is simply 'space hero' or 'space asshole'. With consequences though, meaningful ones in the sequel, it becomes a much deeper way to play the game and impact your experience.

    The_Scarab on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    pfft, "political stability" from saving the council. In one liftetime humans moved from colonizing mars to ruling the galaxy. Hell, if we had waited a couple decades to find the Charon Relay, we would have the Citadel all to ourselves and the reapers would have to only wait 100 years before we were advanced enough for them. And then we'd kill them.

    This is why I offer my revised definitions. Paragon is "pussy" and Space Hitler is "awesome".

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I would agree entirely.

    Still, the point stands. I want my decisions to be vindicated in ME2. I pissed off a lot of people in the first game because 'shit had to get done motherfuckers'. If it turns out that was all for nought then it is going to be an immersion breaking experience.

    Anyone, everyone, playing these role playing games if they played them true to themselves would be a paragon. People are evil, sure, but they're not all assholes. You wouldn't punch a reporter in the face in real life (well, unless you're me and did, but it's ok he was my boss).

    I role played as a renegade for nearly all of my plays of the game because in the context of 'Urgent Galactic Emergency' it made sense. If it turns out nothing has changed and I was simply being a dickhole then that ruins the character of Badass McShepard I have built up for myself. It means I simply was Space Hitler and that's dumb.

    ME2 not only has to be a good game in its own right, but by association it has the capacity to improve ME1 substantially by providing meaning and results to this heavy decisions.

    The_Scarab on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Are the implied consequences of your actions and the act itself not enough? I'm excited to see the "2 years later" effects in ME2 too, but I was satisfied with the idea that I just did humanity a big favor in the ending.

    ME3 will be the real place for it all come back to you, Bioware doesn't have to worry about continuation and can go crazy.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    BlackDove wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    I honestly think there are more paragon points available

    I've played Renegade runs where I've ended up with more paragon points between my going paragon on a handful of the big ones and "fuck you, I'm not a space hitler"

    But Renegade by definition is space hitler.

    untrue!

    though it would appear that going that route isn't so much "renegade" as "ill-tempered paragon with an itchy trigger finger"

    Think of it like this.


    Paragon is James Bond.

    Renegade is Jack Bauer./QUOTE]

    Interestingly, Alpha Protocol - the new RPG from the KOTOR 2 guys - follows these exact principles. When I saw the game at E3 it was described as being based around the three JBs - Jack Bauer (Aggressive, Chaotic Good), James Bond (Calm, Cool, Collected) and Jason Bourne (In the middle). Considering that too is an ME style game (but modern day spies) I found it interesting you described it that way.

    APZonerunner on
    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    I would agree entirely.

    Still, the point stands. I want my decisions to be vindicated in ME2. I pissed off a lot of people in the first game because 'shit had to get done motherfuckers'. If it turns out that was all for nought then it is going to be an immersion breaking experience.

    Anyone, everyone, playing these role playing games if they played them true to themselves would be a paragon. People are evil, sure, but they're not all assholes. You wouldn't punch a reporter in the face in real life (well, unless you're me and did, but it's ok he was my boss).

    I role played as a renegade for nearly all of my plays of the game because in the context of 'Urgent Galactic Emergency' it made sense. If it turns out nothing has changed and I was simply being a dickhole then that ruins the character of Badass McShepard I have built up for myself. It means I simply was Space Hitler and that's dumb.

    ME2 not only has to be a good game in its own right, but by association it has the capacity to improve ME1 substantially by providing meaning and results to this heavy decisions.

    I'm not actually too worried about it not providing heavy consequences for your ME1 decisions. From everything I've read, the game can be vastly different depending on your choices from the first game. It could just be PR, but I have faith in BioWare.

    The recent IGN hands-on preview also mentioned they could see the impact of their choices from the first game right away.

    I can't believe this game is just over a month away. I have my collector's edition pre-ordered and I'm ridiculously pumped up for this. Release day shipping, woohoo!

    Dashui on
    Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I don't think so. Not really. None of the decisions have any real consequences. The council either lives or dies. Either way there is no tangible benefit to the game. So you are literally being asked if you can be bothered to click yes or no. Save them or kill them. Space hero or Space Hitler.

    The_Scarab on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I don't disagree, but for me bothering to click yes or no is enough, for the first game at least. When asked to help the crazy girl from Mindoir, I felt good that I helped her out even though I never heard from her again. Killing the Rachni, I was satisfied knowing I had stopped a potentially major threat to the galaxy. I supposed it helped that I know ME2 was along the way and I would see the full consequences later.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Oh yeah. I get that. The moral satisfaction of your decisions is there, but to me it's not quite tangible enough. Like, I feel fine helping people just to feel good about myself, but the flipside is that if I'm a space asshole, then I'd like to at least have some justification.

    If I killed the council, I'd like there to be some real changes in ME2 to help me explain that decision. If the battle played out exactly the same either way, why not save the council? Just to be an asshole or supplant the council with a human precense, sneakily?

    What I'm saying is, for the smaller decisions, sidequests and general conversation, the inherent attitudes of good and evil, or hero or villain are fine. They're just flavour to my character. but for the big ones, like the council or wrex or the rachni queen, I'd like to be vindicated on my decision because either way in each of them, it was made clear before the decision that it was not just important for parties directly involved, but for the galaxy as a whole. I'd like BioWare to follow through on those promises otherwise it leaves it a little empty, though I don't doubt they will deliver.

    The_Scarab on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Yeah, I kind of get what you're saying. I have a paragon and a renegade run(though neither is purely one or the other just mostly). And I would like to see how you dealt with the major events to have a big effect on the world. Minors events can be there too, but I'm fine if they are only relegated to small cutscenes/quests.

    I think what they were saying about some quests being locked out or only available depending on your chooses should be a good start.

    There should be some things that could only be available for the paragon run and some things only available for the renegade run. Because, logically, your actions will have made some things change and as such unavailable.

    Think of them kind of like the personalized background quests from ME1. Extra more numerous and number and with a bit more depth to them.

    Dragkonias on
  • QuirkyLittleTyrantQuirkyLittleTyrant A Mug Featuring Pichu On A Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Okay, so is the Pinnacle Station Volcanic Hunt mission on Insanity fucking impossible, or have I been consistently doing it wrong like a billion times?

    QuirkyLittleTyrant on
    PSN ID: Khrysocome
    Steam: ZappRowsdower
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    On Insanity I imagine anything involving time limits would become nigh impossible since the nature of Insanity difficulty is that nothing is hard, but rather simply much longer due to humongous fucking lifebars.

    Fiaryn on
    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
    White FC: 0819 3350 1787
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Okay, so is the Pinnacle Station Volcanic Hunt mission on Insanity fucking impossible, or have I been consistently doing it wrong like a billion times?

    I'm in the opinion that Pinnacle just wasn't put together all that well. I heard some people did it on Insanity(not sure which missions), though I don't know if I would have the patience for any of that. I just wanted my swag anyway, so I just dropped the diff and blazed through it.

    Dragkonias on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I think the moral satisfaction of paragon actions applies to renegade too, just a different moral spectrum that you're adopting. For the council, a renegade can be satisfied that he saved thousands of human lives and increased the Alliance's power. Interestingly, a paragon who kills the council has a new council with humans but also aliens. A lot of choices couldn't have shown consequences though. Few people even know the Rachni lived, so if they died it wouldn't have affected many. And if they lived, it would have taken time for them to do anything. Wrex and Kaidan/Ash actually do have an immediate effect in that they live and continue on with you, but they aren't going to leave you until Saren's dead. The Council is endgame of course, and Feros was a minor colony though it should develop over 2 years (unless they're all dead, of course).

    I see what you're saying though and seeing what happens makes ME2 my most anticipated game of the next decade.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I'd like not to be vindicated on absolutely everything. I'd love one or two renegade choices to be "Ho lord you sure judged wrong on this one boyo"

    Same for paragon

    You don't find that interesting?

    SilkyNumNuts on
  • DeaderinredDeaderinred Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    -Tal wrote: »
    Are the implied consequences of your actions and the act itself not enough? I'm excited to see the "2 years later" effects in ME2 too, but I was satisfied with the idea that I just did humanity a big favor in the ending.

    ME3 will be the real place for it all come back to you, Bioware doesn't have to worry about continuation and can go crazy.

    im actually glad they are doing (me2 spoilers)
    the 2 years later thing they way they are doing it, by having the start of the game take place a few days after the end of me1, and then have two years pass while shep is "asleep" this way they can totally change things up, have a progression of the galaxy ect ect all while still making it feel like you are shepard who hasn't had any effect in the galaxy for this period.

    Deaderinred on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    As long as every thing is addressed, that would be wonderful.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    -Tal wrote: »
    Are the implied consequences of your actions and the act itself not enough? I'm excited to see the "2 years later" effects in ME2 too, but I was satisfied with the idea that I just did humanity a big favor in the ending.

    ME3 will be the real place for it all come back to you, Bioware doesn't have to worry about continuation and can go crazy.

    im actually glad they are doing (me2 spoilers)
    the 2 years later thing they way they are doing it, by having the start of the game take place a few days after the end of me1, and then have two years pass while shep is "asleep" this way they can totally change things up, have a progression of the galaxy ect ect all while still making it feel like you are shepard who hasn't had any effect in the galaxy for this period.

    Time for Anderson to grow a Sisko goatee.

    The_Scarab on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    i felt so bad choosing Udina over Anderson in my last playthrough, just to see the outcome. After I sent him to get shot by the police instead of punching Udina, too. but now I know
    he gets promoted to Admiral if you don't choose him for the council. He's better suited to this job and can will be a strong military ally when the rest of the Alliance won't trust Cerberus.

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • DeaderinredDeaderinred Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Are the implied consequences of your actions and the act itself not enough? I'm excited to see the "2 years later" effects in ME2 too, but I was satisfied with the idea that I just did humanity a big favor in the ending.

    ME3 will be the real place for it all come back to you, Bioware doesn't have to worry about continuation and can go crazy.

    im actually glad they are doing (me2 spoilers)
    the 2 years later thing they way they are doing it, by having the start of the game take place a few days after the end of me1, and then have two years pass while shep is "asleep" this way they can totally change things up, have a progression of the galaxy ect ect all while still making it feel like you are shepard who hasn't had any effect in the galaxy for this period.

    Time for Anderson to grow a Sisko goatee.

    oh that would be marvellous.

    Deaderinred on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    -Tal wrote: »
    i felt so bad choosing Udina over Anderson in my last playthrough, just to see the outcome. After I sent him to get shot by the police instead of punching Udina, too. but now I know
    he gets promoted to Admiral if you don't choose him for the council. He's better suited to this job and can will be a strong military ally when the rest of the Alliance won't trust Cerberus.

    I totally went that route too. Udina may be an ass but he got shit done. He wrangled two short notice meetings with the council, got you the best damn ship in the galaxy and totally backs you up at the end.

    The_Scarab on
Sign In or Register to comment.