From my first forays into ICC 10 they are definatly built to be gear checks as well as a basic raid check. Fights like Deathwisper and Saurfang can be unforgiving. People will be able to out gear it eventually but anything you get from just triumph badges alone wont be enough to outgear/zerg things. At least from what I have seen.
Luckily you can PUG HToC10 in a couple of hours to give you a boost.
If you can do HToC10 you can do icc10. Anub can be a bitch sometimes.
From my first forays into ICC 10 they are definatly built to be gear checks as well as a basic raid check. Fights like Deathwisper and Saurfang can be unforgiving. People will be able to out gear it eventually but anything you get from just triumph badges alone wont be enough to outgear/zerg things. At least from what I have seen.
Marrowgar is probably the closest thing to a tank check in the instance, he hits hard and puts out tons of damage, there's really no "instagib" effect like Northrend Beasts but you'll want tanks with plenty of avoidance and mitigation, plus enough stamina (and cooldowns) to survive a healer getting spiked once or twice.
Deathwhisper is all about execution.
Airship is mostly execution, having extremely fast DPS or an extremely geared tank can make some parts easier, but again proper execution is far more important than having an extra 1,500 health or 200 DPS.
Saurfang is also mostly execution, but the more gear you have the less execution you're required to provide. Class composition is a big deal, having a good prot warrior and good hunter coordinate for stunning and kiting adds can make the entire encounter much easier. If you have near-perfect execution, the fight is pretty easy. Dealing with 0-1 marks for the fight makes healing extremely easy, and while Saurfang hits a tank pretty hard during his frenzy its nothing that two tanks + cooldowns + 2-3 healers + cooldowns can't breeze through.
I really don't see anything in ICC10 that strikes me as a gear check, at least not even remotely like Northrend Beasts (Heroic Gormokk in particular) was. Having great gear, great DPS in particular, can give a 10 man raid plenty of room to screw up, but if people are on the ball and doing things properly I can't think of any fight in the 10 man so far that really demands more than good play and gemmed / enchanted 232+ gear (badge loot).
Right, and T9 232 gear is not "almost top of the line." Maybe it was before 3.3 but back then it was harder to get too. Sure, it's great for someone only running heroics, but if they're not getting into your raids and sucking it up, does it matter? A raider will still have better gear to flex over.
I don't know what game you are playing but tier 9 is what people just starting ICC are wearing.
that is what the "almost" means in "almost top of the line".
Maybe we're talking across each other. When I say T9 I mean T9.0. 232 stuff. My guild may be among the best on our server, but take that with perspective that my server is near the bottom of the 15 worst servers in the US for progression. ToC was out for months. My guild hasn't downed beasts in Heroic 25. also haven't killed Deathwhisper in 25. We have essentially 1.5 groups that can do HToC10. But pretty much any main who wants it has full or nearly full 245. And 245 wasn't even top of the line before 3.3. Unless you consider stuff from heroic 25 to be above the line.
Healer's Lament pt. VI: I go through a HPoS run with a LFD group who wants to kill every mob in the instance. Fine with me, more chances at the hilt for everyone. When we get to the end of the passage to the final boss, I have a discussion with the tank regarding his pulling the entire corridor and leaving mobs on me and the other group members. In retaliation, during the loot distribution, he puts me up for a kick vote. To the group's credit, they all vote to kick me before the loot is distributed. What a nice fucking thanks for a job well done. I can't put them on my ignore list, either, because that can only be done while I'm in the instance.
Isn't it normal to wait behind the tank a bit so he can grab everything without anyone else pulling aggro?
Anyways, I think people just vote to kick others as a reaction without actually paying attention to who they're kicking. Otherwise I can't see why you talking to the tank about doing nothing to stop mobs from hitting everyone else in the party would get you kicked.
Isn't it normal to wait behind the tank a bit so he can grab everything without anyone else pulling aggro?
Anyways, I think people just vote to kick others as a reaction without actually paying attention to who they're kicking. Otherwise I can't see why you talking to the tank about doing nothing to stop mobs from hitting everyone else in the party would get you kicked.
Well yes, but healers tend to throw random HoTs and such to keep the tank up during that run (most pause in the middle anyhow), and if the tank doesn't bother getting any threat on the various mobs, they usually go for the healer. Smart DPS will frequently do things to blow the mobs away from the healer or lock them down, which means now some of the mobs are on the DPS too.
Sounds to me like the tank was an inept jackass. And probably not a Paladin.
God I love that run as a paladin... druids 360 degree swiping as they run probably have fun too. But between Avenger's Shield, Hammer of the Righteous hitting 4 targets on a 6s cooldown, occasional Holy Wraths and sometimes Consecrates, I don't usually lose many mobs on that tunnel run.
Huh: Guildie of mine is in a H-Nexus PUG. He's a good healer. Tank is quite durable and holding aggro, which is good because, all 3 DPS are pushing between 4.5 and 6k.
The first boss melts in 15 seconds. At which point the tank says "Fuck this." and leaves the group.
Huh: Guildie of mine is in a H-Nexus PUG. He's a good healer. Tank is quite durable and holding aggro, which is good because, all 3 DPS are pushing between 4.5 and 6k.
The first boss melts in 15 seconds. At which point the tank says "Fuck this." and leaves the group.
H-Nexus seems to lose tanks. I don't know why or how but the last times I have been in there the tank has left before we started. Today the tank left, then the druid healer decided to switch to tank and then left after a new healer popped in but before they switched out of tree to bear.
Isn't it normal to wait behind the tank a bit so he can grab everything without anyone else pulling aggro?
Anyways, I think people just vote to kick others as a reaction without actually paying attention to who they're kicking. Otherwise I can't see why you talking to the tank about doing nothing to stop mobs from hitting everyone else in the party would get you kicked.
I often worry about getting booted over loot whenever I end up in a group where three of them are from the same guild.
edit: Speaking of which, I was in DTK once where there was a rogue who kept FoKing before the tank aggroed anything so he ended up dying a couple times and tried booting the healer right before the final boss. The rogue was from the same guild as the tank and the other DPS. I voted no, and I am geussing the guys guildmates voted no and told him to smarten up because the vote kick was denied.
Isn't it normal to wait behind the tank a bit so he can grab everything without anyone else pulling aggro?
Anyways, I think people just vote to kick others as a reaction without actually paying attention to who they're kicking. Otherwise I can't see why you talking to the tank about doing nothing to stop mobs from hitting everyone else in the party would get you kicked.
I often worry about getting booted over loot whenever I end up in a group where three of them are from the same guild.
edit: Speaking of which, I was in DTK once where there was a rogue who kept FoKing before the tank aggroed anything so he ended up dying a couple times and tried booting the healer right before the final boss. The rogue was from the same guild as the tank and the other DPS. I voted no, and I am geussing the guys guildmates voted no and told him to smarten up because the vote kick was denied.
The rogue is dumb anyway
I've spammed FoK in heroics before if the tank seems to have trouble hanging onto aggro.
Tricks + early FoK spam goes a long way in keeping things attacking the tank.
Huh: Guildie of mine is in a H-Nexus PUG. He's a good healer. Tank is quite durable and holding aggro, which is good because, all 3 DPS are pushing between 4.5 and 6k.
The first boss melts in 15 seconds. At which point the tank says "Fuck this." and leaves the group.
H-Nexus seems to lose tanks. I don't know why or how but the last times I have been in there the tank has left before we started. Today the tank left, then the druid healer decided to switch to tank and then left after a new healer popped in but before they switched out of tree to bear.
Which is weird, because it's a big instance, with 5 bosses, but so fucking easier. It's like the fastest 7 badges you can get. The last time I was in there, we had less dps than the above group, and I didn't realize we'd even pulled commander Stoutheart cause they killed him so fast.
Tofystedeth on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Huh: Guildie of mine is in a H-Nexus PUG. He's a good healer. Tank is quite durable and holding aggro, which is good because, all 3 DPS are pushing between 4.5 and 6k.
The first boss melts in 15 seconds. At which point the tank says "Fuck this." and leaves the group.
First boss meaning the faction commander or the blood elf who drops the winter hat? Because I've had people drop group after not winning the hat.
That made me break 5k gearscore with ease finally.
:x
They use it for the pugs on my server. I personally am a fan of user ability over gearing but WoW hasnt been that way for a long time now.
he's not being angry because of people judging gear. He's being angry because of gearscore. It has nothing to do with being wellgeared.
Given that gear of higher item level has a pretty direct correlation with how high the stats are on that piece of gear, I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with it. It's just that with so many variable regarding different kinds of rotations, soft and hard caps, burst vs. sustained balancing, and what all else, the most it can tell you is if someone is thoroughly undergeared, and even then it may be a judgement call.
Definitely. Too many nonlinear effects out of those things to say a 200 trinket is worse than a 245 one, whereas any other slot is almost always measurably better at 245 than at 200.
SabreMau on
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
From my first forays into ICC 10 they are definatly built to be gear checks as well as a basic raid check. Fights like Deathwisper and Saurfang can be unforgiving. People will be able to out gear it eventually but anything you get from just triumph badges alone wont be enough to outgear/zerg things. At least from what I have seen.
Luckily you can PUG HToC10 in a couple of hours to give you a boost.
If you can do HToC10 you can do icc10. Anub can be a bitch sometimes.
HToC10 is another name for ToGC 10, right?
Different nomenclature across servers can be confusing sometimes.
Correct, FD Strat and BD Strat were what I heard for the first couple years of the game on that server. It wasn't until I moved over to Jubei'Thos around TBC time that I noticed it wasn't used elsewhere.
Happy: Did all of Naxx10 with a hunter's pet main tanking.
Well, almost all. We tried but failed to get him to tank Razuvious. I think it would have been doable if we had mark of the wild and commanding shout in the raid.
Correct, FD Strat and BD Strat were what I heard for the first couple years of the game on that server. It wasn't until I moved over to Jubei'Thos around TBC time that I noticed it wasn't used elsewhere.
On Dark Iron it was always UD Strat or Live Strat. For BRD it was JB BRD or Emp BRD. DME, DMW, or DMN. Oh, how I miss the olden days, sort of.
Correct, FD Strat and BD Strat were what I heard for the first couple years of the game on that server. It wasn't until I moved over to Jubei'Thos around TBC time that I noticed it wasn't used elsewhere.
On Dark Iron it was always UD Strat or Live Strat. For BRD it was JB BRD or Emp BRD. DME, DMW, or DMN. Oh, how I miss the olden days, sort of.
yeah UD or live, Jailbreak or Emp. UBRS and LBRS (pronounced ubers and ellbers respectively)
hate:
level 76, random normal.
dtk pops up.
All three DPS die to void zones on the second pull in and refuse to run back. I manage to get one down to 5% and the other one heals it. Whatever I didn't want to do an instance anyway.
I had an exciting experience today, Random heroic: Tank has 3k less health buffed than my Priest. No big deal, he's wearing all the crafted blue +def plate, and is enchanted with +def, so at least he's doing it right... But um... He dings 80 during the run. I double check; no I'm really in heroic.... Getting frost badges.... wat?
He was queued with 2 DPS from his guild, so um, is there a bug someplace?
If you zone into Gundrak through the random system (i.e. don't use the southeast entrance), the first thing you fight is snakes. Trolls and void zones start off Drak'Tharon Keep.
Hate: Despite being a fairly experienced + decently geared prot paladin, I can't find a raid guild for the life of me because my server is dead allianceside and all the existing raid guilds are really cliquey and impossible to break into.
Double hate: Don't have enough money to server transfer. (Or faction-transfer, as hordeside raiding on my server is actually quite active - we have like a 5:1 population imabalance in horde favor)
Hope: Blizz opens free alliance-only transfers to my server.
Correct, FD Strat and BD Strat were what I heard for the first couple years of the game on that server. It wasn't until I moved over to Jubei'Thos around TBC time that I noticed it wasn't used elsewhere.
On Dark Iron it was always UD Strat or Live Strat. For BRD it was JB BRD or Emp BRD. DME, DMW, or DMN. Oh, how I miss the olden days, sort of.
I heard it as Scarlet side Start or live to the Baron side for Stratholme
Brd has been a bar run, Jailbreak was used since the horde don't have that quest chain and the emperor
With the new ones I wish people would use Pit instead of POS because who really wants to go to a heroic piece of shit
I don't really want to go there, but I keep trying because supposedly one of them carries hilts. I'd much rather go to the classic 90s-era Pit, the one you could play at 2400 baud.
SabreMau on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
Assorted Hate: Again with the spoiled dps.
Heroic PoS, the shaman doesn't put down Cleansing totem like I asked him. Both him and the rogue die at 90% on Ick to a Poison Nova. The shaman ankhs, pops BL and dies 10 seconds later to Pursuit (I healed him to full). Seriously, if the fucking tank runs away, why should the dps stay? The last dps wasn't geared great, so we took a long time killing him, but it actually was easier than with a full group, because with only 3 people there's lots of room to move during the mines. The lesson I learned was: Just let shitty dps die, it's less stressful this way.
Don't even get me started on the HoS runs I had in the last days. I can't remember a time where Krystallus didn't kill anyone.
Assorted Happy: My priest is getting better and better gear, my resto shaman is nearing 1k dps in heroics
Hope: I got a new WiFi dongle which allowed me to flee the crowded b/g range. There's like 25 networks in my house and a new neighbor encroached on my (channel) space which killed my latency sometimes. This should be better now.
Posts
If you can do HToC10 you can do icc10. Anub can be a bitch sometimes.
EDIT: Hell I'd even say many Ulduar hard modes give normal Storming the Citadel a run for its money
Marrowgar is probably the closest thing to a tank check in the instance, he hits hard and puts out tons of damage, there's really no "instagib" effect like Northrend Beasts but you'll want tanks with plenty of avoidance and mitigation, plus enough stamina (and cooldowns) to survive a healer getting spiked once or twice.
Deathwhisper is all about execution.
Airship is mostly execution, having extremely fast DPS or an extremely geared tank can make some parts easier, but again proper execution is far more important than having an extra 1,500 health or 200 DPS.
Saurfang is also mostly execution, but the more gear you have the less execution you're required to provide. Class composition is a big deal, having a good prot warrior and good hunter coordinate for stunning and kiting adds can make the entire encounter much easier. If you have near-perfect execution, the fight is pretty easy. Dealing with 0-1 marks for the fight makes healing extremely easy, and while Saurfang hits a tank pretty hard during his frenzy its nothing that two tanks + cooldowns + 2-3 healers + cooldowns can't breeze through.
I really don't see anything in ICC10 that strikes me as a gear check, at least not even remotely like Northrend Beasts (Heroic Gormokk in particular) was. Having great gear, great DPS in particular, can give a 10 man raid plenty of room to screw up, but if people are on the ball and doing things properly I can't think of any fight in the 10 man so far that really demands more than good play and gemmed / enchanted 232+ gear (badge loot).
Maybe we're talking across each other. When I say T9 I mean T9.0. 232 stuff. My guild may be among the best on our server, but take that with perspective that my server is near the bottom of the 15 worst servers in the US for progression. ToC was out for months. My guild hasn't downed beasts in Heroic 25. also haven't killed Deathwhisper in 25. We have essentially 1.5 groups that can do HToC10. But pretty much any main who wants it has full or nearly full 245. And 245 wasn't even top of the line before 3.3. Unless you consider stuff from heroic 25 to be above the line.
Anyways, I think people just vote to kick others as a reaction without actually paying attention to who they're kicking. Otherwise I can't see why you talking to the tank about doing nothing to stop mobs from hitting everyone else in the party would get you kicked.
Man, Tyrannus drops his pants for anyone these days.
Well yes, but healers tend to throw random HoTs and such to keep the tank up during that run (most pause in the middle anyhow), and if the tank doesn't bother getting any threat on the various mobs, they usually go for the healer. Smart DPS will frequently do things to blow the mobs away from the healer or lock them down, which means now some of the mobs are on the DPS too.
Sounds to me like the tank was an inept jackass. And probably not a Paladin.
God I love that run as a paladin... druids 360 degree swiping as they run probably have fun too. But between Avenger's Shield, Hammer of the Righteous hitting 4 targets on a 6s cooldown, occasional Holy Wraths and sometimes Consecrates, I don't usually lose many mobs on that tunnel run.
The first boss melts in 15 seconds. At which point the tank says "Fuck this." and leaves the group.
H-Nexus seems to lose tanks. I don't know why or how but the last times I have been in there the tank has left before we started. Today the tank left, then the druid healer decided to switch to tank and then left after a new healer popped in but before they switched out of tree to bear.
I often worry about getting booted over loot whenever I end up in a group where three of them are from the same guild.
edit: Speaking of which, I was in DTK once where there was a rogue who kept FoKing before the tank aggroed anything so he ended up dying a couple times and tried booting the healer right before the final boss. The rogue was from the same guild as the tank and the other DPS. I voted no, and I am geussing the guys guildmates voted no and told him to smarten up because the vote kick was denied.
The rogue is dumb anyway
I've spammed FoK in heroics before if the tank seems to have trouble hanging onto aggro.
Tricks + early FoK spam goes a long way in keeping things attacking the tank.
I would say they are doing better than you if they're beating you on overall damage done and you're winning on boss DPS.
95% of time in a traditional heroic is spent killing trash.
he's not being angry because of people judging gear. He's being angry because of gearscore. It has nothing to do with being wellgeared.
It is super stupid.
edit: pugs on my realm use this thing too, but I just run the pugs who aren't asking for GS and I havent had any problems at all.
Given that gear of higher item level has a pretty direct correlation with how high the stats are on that piece of gear, I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with it. It's just that with so many variable regarding different kinds of rotations, soft and hard caps, burst vs. sustained balancing, and what all else, the most it can tell you is if someone is thoroughly undergeared, and even then it may be a judgement call.
HToC10 is another name for ToGC 10, right?
Different nomenclature across servers can be confusing sometimes.
Back Door Strat?
Like, through the Service Entrance?
Well, almost all. We tried but failed to get him to tank Razuvious. I think it would have been doable if we had mark of the wild and commanding shout in the raid.
On Dark Iron it was always UD Strat or Live Strat. For BRD it was JB BRD or Emp BRD. DME, DMW, or DMN. Oh, how I miss the olden days, sort of.
yeah UD or live, Jailbreak or Emp. UBRS and LBRS (pronounced ubers and ellbers respectively)
hate:
level 76, random normal.
dtk pops up.
All three DPS die to void zones on the second pull in and refuse to run back. I manage to get one down to 5% and the other one heals it. Whatever I didn't want to do an instance anyway.
He was queued with 2 DPS from his guild, so um, is there a bug someplace?
all i saw was trolls
Double hate: Don't have enough money to server transfer. (Or faction-transfer, as hordeside raiding on my server is actually quite active - we have like a 5:1 population imabalance in horde favor)
Hope: Blizz opens free alliance-only transfers to my server.
I heard it as Scarlet side Start or live to the Baron side for Stratholme
Brd has been a bar run, Jailbreak was used since the horde don't have that quest chain and the emperor
With the new ones I wish people would use Pit instead of POS because who really wants to go to a heroic piece of shit
Heroic PoS, the shaman doesn't put down Cleansing totem like I asked him. Both him and the rogue die at 90% on Ick to a Poison Nova. The shaman ankhs, pops BL and dies 10 seconds later to Pursuit (I healed him to full). Seriously, if the fucking tank runs away, why should the dps stay? The last dps wasn't geared great, so we took a long time killing him, but it actually was easier than with a full group, because with only 3 people there's lots of room to move during the mines. The lesson I learned was: Just let shitty dps die, it's less stressful this way.
Don't even get me started on the HoS runs I had in the last days. I can't remember a time where Krystallus didn't kill anyone.
Assorted Happy: My priest is getting better and better gear, my resto shaman is nearing 1k dps in heroics
Hope: I got a new WiFi dongle which allowed me to flee the crowded b/g range. There's like 25 networks in my house and a new neighbor encroached on my (channel) space which killed my latency sometimes. This should be better now.