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Health Care Reform: Now With PR Gimmicks! We're Doomed.
either make a substantial point or shut up, moniker
the single-syllable responses got old months ago
Your contention really rests upon the theory that some future congress & president would handle the issue better than the current congress & president are. History since Roosevelt (which has included some PRETTY LIBERAL governments) have not demonstrated this to be true.
It also asserts that the current bill would make the health care situation worse than no bill. I don't think that you have reasonably demonstrated this either.
But listen I understand that you are disappointed that the liberals haven't been absolutely ascendent this term. I am disappointed too. But the fact that this bill is sliding by with 60 votes kind of shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass liberal legislation in this country.
either make a substantial point or shut up, moniker
the single-syllable responses got old months ago
Your contention really rests upon the theory that some future congress & president would handle the issue better than the current congress & president are. History since Roosevelt (which has included some PRETTY LIBERAL governments) have not demonstrated this to be true.
It also asserts that the current bill would make the health care situation worse than no bill. I don't think that you have reasonably demonstrated this either.
But listen I understand that you are disappointed that the liberals haven't been absolutely ascendent this term. I am disappointed too. But the fact that this bill is sliding by with 60 votes kind of shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass liberal legislation in this country.
Realistically it shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass legislation in this country.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
either make a substantial point or shut up, moniker
the single-syllable responses got old months ago
Your contention really rests upon the theory that some future congress & president would handle the issue better than the current congress & president are. History since Roosevelt (which has included some PRETTY LIBERAL governments) have not demonstrated this to be true.
It also asserts that the current bill would make the health care situation worse than no bill. I don't think that you have reasonably demonstrated this either.
But listen I understand that you are disappointed that the liberals haven't been absolutely ascendent this term. I am disappointed too. But the fact that this bill is sliding by with 60 votes kind of shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass liberal legislation in this country.
Any legislation, really, unless it's giving away 'free' money like Medicare Part D, or involves bombing brown people in some way.
moniker on
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
either make a substantial point or shut up, moniker
the single-syllable responses got old months ago
Your contention really rests upon the theory that some future congress & president would handle the issue better than the current congress & president are. History since Roosevelt (which has included some PRETTY LIBERAL governments) have not demonstrated this to be true.
It also asserts that the current bill would make the health care situation worse than no bill. I don't think that you have reasonably demonstrated this either.
But listen I understand that you are disappointed that the liberals haven't been absolutely ascendent this term. I am disappointed too. But the fact that this bill is sliding by with 60 votes kind of shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass liberal legislation in this country.
Realistically it shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass legislation in this country.
Well, most nonideological legislation can just be horse-traded across the finish line.
But trying to give help to economically or politically disempowered citizens at the cost of the financial interests of powerful people or companies?
I don't understand why we can't both support this bill as an improvement on the status quo and try to reform healthcare again down the line. I certainly don't think that the issue will just die if this passes.
Kanamit on
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
I don't understand why we can't both support this bill as an improvement on the status quo and try to reform healthcare again down the line. I certainly don't think that the issue will just die if this passes.
yesss
and future efforts can be more narrowly tailored and lower-profile, which make them far far easier to pass.
again, if the issue is as pressing as the dnc makes it out to be, then of course the senators would really buckle down and not be as capitulating this time around
What part of Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman are assholes who don't really give a shit about anyone don't you understand?
Which is why I say you need to move the 60th vote two spots to the left with new Senators so that you have an ass in that slot, but not a completely uncaring ass (Landrieu/Lincoln), or you need to replace Nelson/Lieberman straight out, or you need to install a leader who will change the rules.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
people like lieberman and nelson are just some of the most blatant examples of problems endemic to the entire democratic congress
this clusterfuck is not their fault, and it's not reid's, and it's not even completely obama's
it's everyone
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
My main concern is really political. Forcing people to buy shitty coverage could be... bad. I can't decide if it would be worse than total failure to pass anything. It really depends if upon further reading the base realizes it's still worth passing as is. I'm not happy about it, but it's worth it.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
people like lieberman and nelson are just some of the most blatant examples of problems endemic to the entire democratic congress
this clusterfuck is not their fault, and it's not reid's, and it's not even completely obama's
it's everyone
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
I don't understand why we can't both support this bill as an improvement on the status quo and try to reform healthcare again down the line. I certainly don't think that the issue will just die if this passes.
I didn't realize that was considered an issue since that's what's happened for every other entitlement/entitlement-like program in the history of the United States. Or:
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
people like lieberman and nelson are just some of the most blatant examples of problems endemic to the entire democratic congress
this clusterfuck is not their fault, and it's not reid's, and it's not even completely obama's
it's everyone
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
You just seem, like, mad at the world.
i think it's worth finding out, at least
like i said, i don't think the legislation is good enough to deserve being passed and denying that chance
if nothing else, then the bill failing might cause a little more civil unrest, which would also be a decent outcome
Not to be out-assholed, Bart Stupak's office coordinates with Mitch McConnell to kill poor women.
Fortunately, he's in the House and Pelosi can tell him to fuck off. Hopefully.
Given the margin and rules governing the House she can technically have him bludgeoned with a mace.
Sounds good to me.
Its not a mace, its a gavel.
It's a stylized, WoW-ish mace.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
again, if the issue is as pressing as the dnc makes it out to be, then of course the senators would really buckle down and not be as capitulating this time around
What part of Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman are assholes who don't really give a shit about anyone don't you understand?
Which is why I say you need to move the 60th vote two spots to the left with new Senators so that you have an ass in that slot, but not a completely uncaring ass (Landrieu/Lincoln), or you need to replace Nelson/Lieberman straight out, or you need to install a leader who will change the rules.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
Every other week EB has been blaming the institutional issues of Senate rules.
During the even weeks he's been advocating that we abolish the Senate.
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
So you'd rather cut off your nose to spite your face on the seemingly baseless hope that cyborg noses will become available in a few years?
again, if the issue is as pressing as the dnc makes it out to be, then of course the senators would really buckle down and not be as capitulating this time around
What part of Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman are assholes who don't really give a shit about anyone don't you understand?
Which is why I say you need to move the 60th vote two spots to the left with new Senators so that you have an ass in that slot, but not a completely uncaring ass (Landrieu/Lincoln), or you need to replace Nelson/Lieberman straight out, or you need to install a leader who will change the rules.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
Every other week EB has been blaming the institutional issues of Senate rules.
During the even weeks he's been advocating that we abolish the Senate.
It's closer to every other hour, but yes.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Hm, are there two maces? Mine is straight from congress.gov.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I don't understand why we can't both support this bill as an improvement on the status quo and try to reform healthcare again down the line. I certainly don't think that the issue will just die if this passes.
I didn't realize that was considered an issue since that's what's happened for every other entitlement/entitlement-like program in the history of the United States. Or:
Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards
There just seems to be an attitude on both sides (embracing my inner centrist here) of this bill that if we pass it we have to accept it as the best health care reform we can get. We can pass this, acknowledge that in some areas it leaves a lot to be desired, and try to improve it or replace it down the line.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
people like lieberman and nelson are just some of the most blatant examples of problems endemic to the entire democratic congress
this clusterfuck is not their fault, and it's not reid's, and it's not even completely obama's
it's everyone
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
You just seem, like, mad at the world.
i think it's worth finding out, at least
like i said, i don't think the legislation is good enough to deserve being passed and denying that chance
if nothing else, then the bill failing might cause a little more civil unrest, which would also be a decent outcome
Or it would be the same thing that happened in the 90's and we'd go decades before another attempt was made that ultimately fails yet again for Democrats and Moderates wanting mutually exclusive things.
moniker on
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
You just seem, like, mad at the world.
i think it's worth finding out, at least
like i said, i don't think the legislation is good enough to deserve being passed and denying that chance
if nothing else, then the bill failing might cause a little more civil unrest, which would also be a decent outcome
Look, if this bill really does make things worse and a better congress somehow gets elected, then they will improve on the bill.
Probably this bill will make things somewhat better and congress will get worse and we might see marginal improvements around the edges.
But it is hard for me to imagine a world in which this bill going down makes the world a better place.
25 million people who don't have insurance will have insurance. People who have serious illnesses won't get dropped from their plans. People won't get pushed out of the insurance they have because of rising costs.
Every dollar I ever donated and every hour I ever volunteered just paid off.
So worthwhile.
So worthwhile.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
You just seem, like, mad at the world.
i think it's worth finding out, at least
like i said, i don't think the legislation is good enough to deserve being passed and denying that chance
if nothing else, then the bill failing might cause a little more civil unrest, which would also be a decent outcome
Look, if this bill really does make things worse and a better congress somehow gets elected, then they will improve on the bill.
Probably this bill will make things somewhat better and congress will get worse and we might see marginal improvements around the edges.
But it is hard for me to imagine a world in which this bill going down makes the world a better place.
If this bill makes things worse, a worse Congress will get elected, and ignore the issue to give the CEO of Wellpoint a billion dollar tax credit.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
25 million people who don't have insurance will have insurance. People who have serious illnesses won't get dropped from their plans. People won't get pushed out of the insurance they have because of rising costs.
Every dollar I ever donated and every hour I ever volunteered just paid off.
So worthwhile.
So worthwhile.
The concern I have is still there's not enough pressure on the health insurance industry to control costs with their brand new captive customer base. I wish there was more for that. Though yes, this bit is good.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
This is not exactly a high bar if you're younger than say, 30.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I don't understand why we can't both support this bill as an improvement on the status quo and try to reform healthcare again down the line. I certainly don't think that the issue will just die if this passes.
I didn't realize that was considered an issue since that's what's happened for every other entitlement/entitlement-like program in the history of the United States. Or:
Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards
There just seems to be an attitude on both sides (embracing my inner centrist here) of this bill that if we pass it we have to accept it as the best health care reform we can get. We can pass this, acknowledge that in some areas it leaves a lot to be desired, and try to improve it or replace it down the line.
It is the best health care reform we can get. Today. However this is not the end of history and it can get brought up again and again and again. When that happens all this will start over once more, though hopefully with less fanfare so better legislation can manage to slip by the Broders of the world, and with fewer assholes in the Senate as if that's likely to happen. Then after the compromise and, you know, politics of that legislation occurs you take yes for an answer and then start over once more.
I love that a Bush Republican Congress passed a Deficit Reduction Act.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
25 million people who don't have insurance will have insurance. People who have serious illnesses won't get dropped from their plans. People won't get pushed out of the insurance they have because of rising costs.
Every dollar I ever donated and every hour I ever volunteered just paid off.
So worthwhile.
So worthwhile.
The concern I have is still there's not enough pressure on the health insurance industry to control costs with their brand new captive customer base. I wish there was more for that. Though yes, this bit is good.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
This is not exactly a high bar if you're younger than say, 30.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
This is not exactly a high bar if you're younger than say, 60.
Even that's probably being generous.
1989-1994. Before that... probably the early to mid 60s.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
25 million people who don't have insurance will have insurance. People who have serious illnesses won't get dropped from their plans. People won't get pushed out of the insurance they have because of rising costs.
Every dollar I ever donated and every hour I ever volunteered just paid off.
So worthwhile.
So worthwhile.
The concern I have is still there's not enough pressure on the health insurance industry to control costs with their brand new captive customer base. I wish there was more for that. Though yes, this bit is good.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
This is not exactly a high bar if you're younger than say, 30.
See that pit of darkness we crawled out of?
We did that.
You and me friend. You and me.
Wooo
I'm just saying congratulating ourselves for clearing a six inch pole vault is maybe a tad rash. Let's at least hit say Bush I era competence before we're too happy.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Hm, are there two maces? Mine is straight from congress.gov.
The Mace transforms according to the desires of its wielder.
So much crazy shit in the traditions of Congress.
Why yes, that is a Senate desk filled with candy.
Is that a Pennsylvania Senator's desk? Hershey seems to be overly represented.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I submit it is time to celebrate from here to New Years.
Did we make sure the coverage won't suck and won't bankrupt them is the question. I'm starting to lean towards it won't suck, but cost eek.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I submit it is time to celebrate from here to New Years.
No we didn't. Not yet.
And I still think that we could have handled HCR much better, but what's done is done.
Also this, remember Lieberman might see any celebration among liberals. I think we have to publicly hate the bill til he votes on it. :P
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Posts
Your contention really rests upon the theory that some future congress & president would handle the issue better than the current congress & president are. History since Roosevelt (which has included some PRETTY LIBERAL governments) have not demonstrated this to be true.
It also asserts that the current bill would make the health care situation worse than no bill. I don't think that you have reasonably demonstrated this either.
But listen I understand that you are disappointed that the liberals haven't been absolutely ascendent this term. I am disappointed too. But the fact that this bill is sliding by with 60 votes kind of shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass liberal legislation in this country.
Realistically it shows the difficulties intrinsic in trying to pass legislation in this country.
Any legislation, really, unless it's giving away 'free' money like Medicare Part D, or involves bombing brown people in some way.
Well, most nonideological legislation can just be horse-traded across the finish line.
But trying to give help to economically or politically disempowered citizens at the cost of the financial interests of powerful people or companies?
Real hard
yesss
and future efforts can be more narrowly tailored and lower-profile, which make them far far easier to pass.
at some point, so help me god, this trend of blaming a systemic problem on two or three specific people every other week will end
people like lieberman and nelson are just some of the most blatant examples of problems endemic to the entire democratic congress
this clusterfuck is not their fault, and it's not reid's, and it's not even completely obama's
it's everyone
and i'm still holding out hope that this legislation will somehow crash, so that they can all have some time to stew and maybe make a slight turn-around to save their own jobs, which is all they have ever cared about
ok but too great
honestly the Dems are doing a shitty shitty job of selling it
You think that passing a better health care bill is going to save Joe Lieberman's job?
Or Ben Nelsons or Blanche Lincolns?
Or any red state senator?
You think it is going to help a Republican senator avoid a primary and win needed center-right swing voters?
I mean look man the problem is systemic with the senate rules and the fact that the Republicans are really able to maintain a hard voting bloc (mostly because they do not have many blue state members at all).
You just seem, like, mad at the world.
I didn't realize that was considered an issue since that's what's happened for every other entitlement/entitlement-like program in the history of the United States. Or:
Its not a mace, its a gavel.
i think it's worth finding out, at least
like i said, i don't think the legislation is good enough to deserve being passed and denying that chance
if nothing else, then the bill failing might cause a little more civil unrest, which would also be a decent outcome
It's a stylized, WoW-ish mace.
Every other week EB has been blaming the institutional issues of Senate rules.
During the even weeks he's been advocating that we abolish the Senate.
So you'd rather cut off your nose to spite your face on the seemingly baseless hope that cyborg noses will become available in a few years?
It's closer to every other hour, but yes.
No, they have a mace.
Or it would be the same thing that happened in the 90's and we'd go decades before another attempt was made that ultimately fails yet again for Democrats and Moderates wanting mutually exclusive things.
Look, if this bill really does make things worse and a better congress somehow gets elected, then they will improve on the bill.
Probably this bill will make things somewhat better and congress will get worse and we might see marginal improvements around the edges.
But it is hard for me to imagine a world in which this bill going down makes the world a better place.
Every dollar I ever donated and every hour I ever volunteered just paid off.
So worthwhile.
So worthwhile.
In fact looking back since I started paying attention to politics, this is literally the best government I have ever witnessed.
If this bill makes things worse, a worse Congress will get elected, and ignore the issue to give the CEO of Wellpoint a billion dollar tax credit.
So's mine. Plus you can see it behind the Speaker's chair sometimes when C-Span has a wider view.
The concern I have is still there's not enough pressure on the health insurance industry to control costs with their brand new captive customer base. I wish there was more for that. Though yes, this bit is good.
This is not exactly a high bar if you're younger than say, 30.
109: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/109th_United_States_Congress
111: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress
The Mace transforms according to the desires of its wielder.
It is the best health care reform we can get. Today. However this is not the end of history and it can get brought up again and again and again. When that happens all this will start over once more, though hopefully with less fanfare so better legislation can manage to slip by the Broders of the world, and with fewer assholes in the Senate as if that's likely to happen. Then after the compromise and, you know, politics of that legislation occurs you take yes for an answer and then start over once more.
I love that a Bush Republican Congress passed a Deficit Reduction Act.
See that pit of darkness we crawled out of?
We did that.
You and me friend. You and me.
Wooo
1989-1994. Before that... probably the early to mid 60s.
I'm just saying congratulating ourselves for clearing a six inch pole vault is maybe a tad rash. Let's at least hit say Bush I era competence before we're too happy.
So much crazy shit in the traditions of Congress.
Why yes, that is a Senate desk filled with candy.
Yes it is a vast improvement.
But it is frustrating that we are not crushing conservatives under our heels I guess.
Or that we have to compromise with and buy off non-liberals.
But I think that ideologues are definitionally the masters of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
I submit it is time to celebrate from here to New Years.
Is that a Pennsylvania Senator's desk? Hershey seems to be overly represented.
Did we make sure the coverage won't suck and won't bankrupt them is the question. I'm starting to lean towards it won't suck, but cost eek.
And I still think that we could have handled HCR much better, but what's done is done.
Also this, remember Lieberman might see any celebration among liberals. I think we have to publicly hate the bill til he votes on it. :P