chrono trigger is like fifteen years old or something. it's like if you listened to All Eyez On Me and said "yeah, this sounds pretty much like everything out now, so what?"
Oh, are we admitting this to ourselves now?
That only took about five years.
Goddamn old timers and your nostalgia trips.
Tarranon on
You could be anywhere
On the black screen
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2009
Yeah I guess I could see as how CT introduced a lot of what is now standard gameplay. And the fact that I actually finished it speaks to the idea that it has aged relatively well (even though yes I did not have a lot of other things to occupy myself up there).
I'd agree with that description of, not just any JRPG, but almost any RPG at all. Maybe it's just me getting older- as a kid I loved RPGs, especially final fantasy games. But now I just see them as a bad story with cardboard cutout characters and a mindnumbing combat system. I have fun with collecting my gear and optimizing my stats to take down a specific dungeon, but usually if I put thought into the game like that it just makes everything way too easy.
If i was gonna make my own RPG, I'd make it more like a movie or a fantasy novel. Start off by hiring a damn WRITER, and base everything around his script. If that's solid, I'm OK with the gameplay itself being generic and repetitive.
Pi-r8 on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Really, isn't a JRPG just a form of tactics game that has a lot of extra cinema and minigames?
I think that in general they owe their combat structure to Wizardry (Attack Parry Use Flee) and, at least traditionally, their exploration style to either Ultima or, like, Kings Quest.
Wizardry was huge in Japan. Like even after Origin went under in the US, the Japanese bought out the license and made console-based Wizardry games.
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Really, isn't a JRPG just a form of tactics game that has a lot of extra cinema and minigames?
isn't that every RPG?
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
SkyGheNe on
0
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
KOTOR2 was actually pretty good until the final third, where it became clear that Obsidian ran out of money and time.
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
Slicer on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Really, isn't a JRPG just a form of tactics game that has a lot of extra cinema and minigames?
isn't that every RPG?
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
A MAN CHOOSES
A SLAVE OBEYS
Irond Will on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
The first game is a complete story in and of itself with a beginning, middle and end. The sequel (which is still generally agreed to be a worthwhile game) really shouldn't get in the way of your enjoyment at all.
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
is it really an exploit if its a tip in the official strategy guide?
Really, isn't a JRPG just a form of tactics game that has a lot of extra cinema and minigames?
isn't that every RPG?
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
The first game is a complete story in and of itself with a beginning, middle and end. The sequel (which is still generally agreed to be a worthwhile game) really shouldn't get in the way of your enjoyment at all.
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
is it really an exploit if its a tip in the official strategy guide?
I've never read the guide so I can't really say, but even ignoring that my point still stands!
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
You can do it with some abuse of Gau as well, though I've never tried it myself.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
I'll be charitable and say that JRPGs also tend to place a higher premium on exploration. They give you big worlds to wander around in and big rewards for those willing to turn over every rock.
Much as I love Bioware RPGs, very often their level design feels like they just took the story meeting flowchart and rendered it in polygons.
The only time a primary character with amnesia was acceptable was in Planescape: Torment.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
The first game is a complete story in and of itself with a beginning, middle and end. The sequel (which is still generally agreed to be a worthwhile game) really shouldn't get in the way of your enjoyment at all.
I'll have to pick it up then. So many games to play through, so little time. I kinda regret spending so much time with weak games in my youth.
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
I'll be charitable and say that JRPGs also tend to place a higher premium on exploration. They give you big worlds to wander around in and big rewards for those willing to turn over every rock.
Much as I love Bioware RPGs, very often their level design feels like they just took the story meeting flowchart and rendered it in polygons.
The best of the western ones were way better about this. Ultima, especially.
Maybe I should play Ultima 6 again...
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Really, isn't a JRPG just a form of tactics game that has a lot of extra cinema and minigames?
isn't that every RPG?
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
A MAN CHOOSES
A SLAVE OBEYS
wait, since when is Bioshock an RPG?
It's not. It just seemed germane to the whole trope of linear gameplay in JRPGs. It was a really clever way to address that convention.
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
I'll be charitable and say that JRPGs also tend to place a higher premium on exploration. They give you big worlds to wander around in and big rewards for those willing to turn over every rock.
Much as I love Bioware RPGs, very often their level design feels like they just took the story meeting flowchart and rendered it in polygons.
I actually sort of think that Morrowind (and to a lesser extent Oblivion) should be considered a jRPG. It definitely had that feel to me when I played it the first time, just in 3D rather than isometric.
The differences make sense if you think about it, though. The "japanese" RPG tradition is about telling a story; they're like books, really, with enough gameplay included to call it a video game and not a videonovella. It's only been really recently that combat in jRPGs has gotten compelling at all (outside of the pretty cinematic attacks anyway.) Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience, which leads them to totally different goals in terms of the gameplay experience.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
I'll be charitable and say that JRPGs also tend to place a higher premium on exploration. They give you big worlds to wander around in and big rewards for those willing to turn over every rock.
Much as I love Bioware RPGs, very often their level design feels like they just took the story meeting flowchart and rendered it in polygons.
The best of the western ones were way better about this. Ultima, especially.
Maybe I should play Ultima 6 again...
What was cool about the Ultima games is that you were free to go whereever you wanted, but you were going to get pasted unless you were careful about how far out you ranged until you leveled up. I guess that is, in its own way, a linear story experience, but it really feels a lot more free.
Also, once you got all leveled up you could go back to the early stages and just destroy everything. That was always gratifying
Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience...
I'm still hoping someone can put some more detail into this. I mean, Shadow Hearts and Suikoden V felt a lot more like D&D than Jade Empire, Oblivion, or Mass Effect did.
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
Yeah, the only JRPG series I've ever played where your level is the biggest indication of your success in combat was Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy 8 had the game breaking junction system (and most of the other FF games have a similar mechanic that can be exploited in lieu of level grinding), and combat in the SMT series (Shin Megami Tensei, probably the most unabashedly "hardcore" JRPGs to be released stateside) is all about finding ways to game the system in order to avoid dying a terribly swift death.
Really though, I couldn't care less about innovation in RPGs, or any game really. Sure, being different and new can be interesting, but all I need to enjoy an RPG are internally consistent characters that don't suck, and a fast paced combat system that allows plenty of customization. I love Dragon Age and the SMT series, but haven't finished a single SRPG simply because I can't stand how drawn out the grid based combat system seems in comparison.
I really think it's more about the writing than the formula. Every RPG is effectively trying to emulate the ideal tabletop experience, which combines innovation and depth of writing, to a visual format. From there it's a spectrum of the desired level of control and depth. Because time, money, and technical space are finite resources, every increase of one of these things will decrease the other. A standard JRPG limits the control of what the player can be and in exchange it can tell exactly the story it desires. Mass Effect, for example, is a few ticks to the right. You can choose your race, gender, first name, and decide on the good/evil range of moral actions and your love interest as you go, but you're always going to be a mostly lawful space marine named Shepard. A tick towards control from there puts you at Fallout 3, with similar limitations on back-story and no love interests whatsoever with a far wider range of actions, especially regarding morality. At the far extreme, you can decide everything from your name to your species and backstory in some MMOs and text-games, with the consequence that absolutely none of it will be acknowledged in game.
I enjoy games from multiple ranges on that spectrum, and I'm just as annoyed with the idea that story-heavy, choice-light games are bad as I am with the occasionally trendy argument that cut scenes, turn-based game play at all, or even single-player games are obsolete dinosaurs. But to justify a game low on control, the designer must make the story original and moving enough to be worth it. And too often JRPGs plow the well-worn paths of other games, especially the Final Fantasies, or anime cliches. Not that there aren't good games out there even today. I think one of the reasons for the success of the recent Persona games is the way they twisted common RPG tropes. The setting is modern Japan instead of a ye olde fantasy throwback, advancement is demonstrated through time instead of space, and the game's mechanics necessitate a more intimate interactive process with your party members. I think plenty of JRPGS could be successful with only some changes to their plot and character design.
EmperorSeth on
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2009
I think Morrowwind fits the WRPG trope a lot more than the JRPG. For one thing, characterization in Bethesda's games are weak as shit and the ast style seems to give like no thought at all to character models.
Fuckin ugly. Say what you will about the androgynous teenagers of JRPGs, their character models are exquisite.
The gameplay in Morrowind is more actiony than JRPGs, the plots less linear, lots of optional subplots (actually the bulk of the game is optional subplots).
There are some cool things about Morrowind and Oblivion, but also a lot of really unattractive things. Fallout 3 improved on a good number of things so maybe just maybe the next Elder Scrolls game will be pretty good.
It's sort of impressive that someone who calls a subgenre encompassing Disgaea, SMT, Mario & Luigi, Final Fantasy, Tales of *, and Fire Emblem stale. I mean, they're all pretty much the exact same thing, right?
Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience...
I'm still hoping someone can put some more detail into this. I mean, Shadow Hearts and Suikoden V felt a lot more like D&D than Jade Empire, Oblivion, or Mass Effect did.
I mean, the earliest RPGs developed in the west were just ports of D&D box campaigns that you could run from boot disks on your 486, and of course bioware used D&D based rules forever. And modern wRPGs generally try to give the player as much choice as they can, within the constraints of a video game.
I didn't play suikoden but it's really hard for me to see how you thought shadow hearts was more like a PnP game than say, kotor was
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience...
I'm still hoping someone can put some more detail into this. I mean, Shadow Hearts and Suikoden V felt a lot more like D&D than Jade Empire, Oblivion, or Mass Effect did.
I mean, the earliest RPGs developed in the west were just ports of D&D box campaigns that you could run from boot disks on your 486, and of course bioware used D&D based rules forever. And modern wRPGs generally try to give the player as much choice as they can, within the constraints of a video game.
I didn't play suikoden but it's really hard for me to see how you thought shadow hearts was more like a PnP game than say, kotor was
Seriously, you picked the 3 RPGs least like PnP, instead of the entire catalog of games produced on the D&D rule-set.
Bioware does the same stupid game over and over again with the same shitty plot and same shitty character archetypes, and they have the nerve to call JRPGs stagnant. This is like Activision calling out Harmonix on flooding the music game genre or EA calling out THQ on the yearly Wrestling game updates.
I didn't play suikoden but it's really hard for me to see how you thought shadow hearts was more like a PnP game than say, kotor was
I've never played Kotor, but Shadow Hearts: Covenant is pretty much the video game manifestation of D&D rules. Turn-based, stats-dependent, guys stay where they finish their turns. That's pretty much D&D, just in a different setting.
Wet Bandit on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience...
I'm still hoping someone can put some more detail into this. I mean, Shadow Hearts and Suikoden V felt a lot more like D&D than Jade Empire, Oblivion, or Mass Effect did.
Pen and paper games are all about continually making mechanical decisions that are significant for your character. Not only do you usually "roll up" your guy - choosing how he will be played - but you get to constantly refine those choices as he levels up. It's such an ingrained idea that even games that aren't really RPGs in any other respect - stuff like Diablo or Borderlands or Bioshock - get called "role playing games" because they do that one thing.
By contrast, a lot of JRPGs (not all) limit your input into a character's development to basically just the gear that they wear, or maybe picking their special unlockable princess costume.
Posts
Oh, are we admitting this to ourselves now?
That only took about five years.
Goddamn old timers and your nostalgia trips.
On the black screen
If i was gonna make my own RPG, I'd make it more like a movie or a fantasy novel. Start off by hiring a damn WRITER, and base everything around his script. If that's solid, I'm OK with the gameplay itself being generic and repetitive.
I think the problem is that now even the cinema and minigames are starting to blur together.
I mean, it's one thing trying to dress something up in some new ways, but when even the dressings start feeling samey....
WRPG = exploit system
JRPG = your level > enemy level
I think that in general they owe their combat structure to Wizardry (Attack Parry Use Flee) and, at least traditionally, their exploration style to either Ultima or, like, Kings Quest.
Wizardry was huge in Japan. Like even after Origin went under in the US, the Japanese bought out the license and made console-based Wizardry games.
JRPG's suck at handling that storytelling trope. It's rarely central to the story aside from it being used to start with an incredibly ignorant protagonist who gets to learn with the player along the way.
You asked me to be more specific, then you came back with this? What does this even mean?
Eh KOTOR worked out pretty well I thought
isn't that every RPG?
The defining difference between a jRPG and a wRPG is flexibility of the story. In a JRPG you're just experiencing the story passively. You control the characters, but only in the sense that you guide them through a story that's laid out for you. In a western RPG you have (an increasing amount of) control over the story.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, well, you see, I'm an ugly person for never playing it.
I think it was the major disappointment I heard over KOTOR2 that killed my excitement for playing through it.
KOTOR2 was actually pretty good until the final third, where it became clear that Obsidian ran out of money and time.
Many JRPGS also offer ways to game the system.
I don't have the details on hand but to name one, in Final Fantasy 6 it's possible to finish at an incredibly low level with almost everyone below level 10 even without using the vanish/doom exploit.
A MAN CHOOSES
A SLAVE OBEYS
The first game is a complete story in and of itself with a beginning, middle and end. The sequel (which is still generally agreed to be a worthwhile game) really shouldn't get in the way of your enjoyment at all.
is it really an exploit if its a tip in the official strategy guide?
wait, since when is Bioshock an RPG?
the graphics updates alone are worth it.
I've never read the guide so I can't really say, but even ignoring that my point still stands!
You can do it with some abuse of Gau as well, though I've never tried it myself.
I'll be charitable and say that JRPGs also tend to place a higher premium on exploration. They give you big worlds to wander around in and big rewards for those willing to turn over every rock.
Much as I love Bioware RPGs, very often their level design feels like they just took the story meeting flowchart and rendered it in polygons.
I'll have to pick it up then. So many games to play through, so little time. I kinda regret spending so much time with weak games in my youth.
The best of the western ones were way better about this. Ultima, especially.
Maybe I should play Ultima 6 again...
It's not. It just seemed germane to the whole trope of linear gameplay in JRPGs. It was a really clever way to address that convention.
Totally agree.
I actually sort of think that Morrowind (and to a lesser extent Oblivion) should be considered a jRPG. It definitely had that feel to me when I played it the first time, just in 3D rather than isometric.
The differences make sense if you think about it, though. The "japanese" RPG tradition is about telling a story; they're like books, really, with enough gameplay included to call it a video game and not a videonovella. It's only been really recently that combat in jRPGs has gotten compelling at all (outside of the pretty cinematic attacks anyway.) Western RPGs are informed by the pen and paper experience, which leads them to totally different goals in terms of the gameplay experience.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What was cool about the Ultima games is that you were free to go whereever you wanted, but you were going to get pasted unless you were careful about how far out you ranged until you leveled up. I guess that is, in its own way, a linear story experience, but it really feels a lot more free.
Also, once you got all leveled up you could go back to the early stages and just destroy everything. That was always gratifying
I'm still hoping someone can put some more detail into this. I mean, Shadow Hearts and Suikoden V felt a lot more like D&D than Jade Empire, Oblivion, or Mass Effect did.
Yeah, the only JRPG series I've ever played where your level is the biggest indication of your success in combat was Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy 8 had the game breaking junction system (and most of the other FF games have a similar mechanic that can be exploited in lieu of level grinding), and combat in the SMT series (Shin Megami Tensei, probably the most unabashedly "hardcore" JRPGs to be released stateside) is all about finding ways to game the system in order to avoid dying a terribly swift death.
Really though, I couldn't care less about innovation in RPGs, or any game really. Sure, being different and new can be interesting, but all I need to enjoy an RPG are internally consistent characters that don't suck, and a fast paced combat system that allows plenty of customization. I love Dragon Age and the SMT series, but haven't finished a single SRPG simply because I can't stand how drawn out the grid based combat system seems in comparison.
I enjoy games from multiple ranges on that spectrum, and I'm just as annoyed with the idea that story-heavy, choice-light games are bad as I am with the occasionally trendy argument that cut scenes, turn-based game play at all, or even single-player games are obsolete dinosaurs. But to justify a game low on control, the designer must make the story original and moving enough to be worth it. And too often JRPGs plow the well-worn paths of other games, especially the Final Fantasies, or anime cliches. Not that there aren't good games out there even today. I think one of the reasons for the success of the recent Persona games is the way they twisted common RPG tropes. The setting is modern Japan instead of a ye olde fantasy throwback, advancement is demonstrated through time instead of space, and the game's mechanics necessitate a more intimate interactive process with your party members. I think plenty of JRPGS could be successful with only some changes to their plot and character design.
Fuckin ugly. Say what you will about the androgynous teenagers of JRPGs, their character models are exquisite.
The gameplay in Morrowind is more actiony than JRPGs, the plots less linear, lots of optional subplots (actually the bulk of the game is optional subplots).
There are some cool things about Morrowind and Oblivion, but also a lot of really unattractive things. Fallout 3 improved on a good number of things so maybe just maybe the next Elder Scrolls game will be pretty good.
To say nothing about [VIDURL="
I mean, the earliest RPGs developed in the west were just ports of D&D box campaigns that you could run from boot disks on your 486, and of course bioware used D&D based rules forever. And modern wRPGs generally try to give the player as much choice as they can, within the constraints of a video game.
I didn't play suikoden but it's really hard for me to see how you thought shadow hearts was more like a PnP game than say, kotor was
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
TPYR == Not likely!
YPRM != JRPH MPG.
I think you know what I mean.
Edit:
Seriously, you picked the 3 RPGs least like PnP, instead of the entire catalog of games produced on the D&D rule-set.
And those games produced on the D&D rules were all made 5-15 years ago.
The games have evolved since then.
Which is the entire point.
I've never played Kotor, but Shadow Hearts: Covenant is pretty much the video game manifestation of D&D rules. Turn-based, stats-dependent, guys stay where they finish their turns. That's pretty much D&D, just in a different setting.
Pen and paper games are all about continually making mechanical decisions that are significant for your character. Not only do you usually "roll up" your guy - choosing how he will be played - but you get to constantly refine those choices as he levels up. It's such an ingrained idea that even games that aren't really RPGs in any other respect - stuff like Diablo or Borderlands or Bioshock - get called "role playing games" because they do that one thing.
By contrast, a lot of JRPGs (not all) limit your input into a character's development to basically just the gear that they wear, or maybe picking their special unlockable princess costume.