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What you didn't know about the games you play

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Posts

  • LorkLork Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    You know for the longest time I've wondered.

    Theres a huge sonic hacking community and stuff, but there doesn't ever seem to be something comparable for any other game series. Is it just not as interesting as sonic or what..
    The Bungie community is comparable, although the reason for it is much more obvious. There's just an obscene amount of hidden stuff to discover and argue about in their games.

    I'm just guessing here but the Sonic hacking community probably arose from a desire to make a new Sonic game, since Sega doesn't want to make one itself.

    Lork on
    Steam Profile: Lork
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Lork wrote: »
    You know for the longest time I've wondered.

    Theres a huge sonic hacking community and stuff, but there doesn't ever seem to be something comparable for any other game series. Is it just not as interesting as sonic or what..
    The Bungie community is comparable, although the reason for it is much more obvious. There's just an obscene amount of hidden stuff to discover and argue about in their games.

    I'm just guessing here but the Sonic hacking community probably arose from a desire to make a new Sonic game, since Sega doesn't want to make one itself.

    Again, we've been around since 96-97.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Xagarath wrote: »
    TSR, know what the cult/Sonic HQ hatred thing was all about?
    That always confused me.

    Pachuka was a child molesting asshole.

    EDIT: And SonicHQ was furry central.

    As a longtime occasional member of the latter, I have to admit that's fair for at least some of them.

    Xagarath on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Xagarath wrote: »
    Xagarath wrote: »
    TSR, know what the cult/Sonic HQ hatred thing was all about?
    That always confused me.

    Pachuka was a child molesting asshole.

    EDIT: And SonicHQ was furry central.

    As a longtime occasional member of the latter, I have to admit that's fair for at least some of them.

    They're both accurate depictions of the two scenes, especially during the time Pachuka was there. Yes, he literally was a child molester.

    Which is why I was a member of SSRG, and Area 51 more specifically.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2008
    I've registered at Retro, but I'm more interested in the information from a game developer point of view.

    OH WAIT HOW DOES I CRAK DRMZ?

    FyreWulff on
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Xagarath wrote: »
    TSR, know what the cult/Sonic HQ hatred thing was all about?
    That always confused me.

    Pachuka was a child molesting asshole.

    EDIT: And SonicHQ was furry central.

    He and I hated each other, but that was mainly down to when he had that big showdown with the emulationzone guys and the webmaster of there had his insanity/breakdown etcetera.

    I was more in with the SFGHQ/Moogle Cavern and such places, though I obviously kept up with hacking news (and still do.)

    The Sonic Community was and is one of the most splintered fan communities I've ever seen, and there always seems to be various little factions at war with each other.

    I remember the whole Pach child molesting thing though. Hoo, megaton. For once the entire community rallied against one person.

    APZonerunner on
    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    It's not that splintered anymore. Retro has really put the community back together, and back in the day it was really either SSRG or cult. I remember back when cult wasn't even around and it was just SSRG - an attempt to group all the hacking sites into one with Area 51 being almost the hub.

    The community almost died a few years back when pachuka went to jail, mainly because cult was really the only thing at the time keeping it afloat. Simon Wai's page was really never kept up until it became retro. The backbone of the community has really always been the intrapersonal relationships, though. Stuff like SonAR or the IRC rooms or flat out IMing someone like tax or stealth on AIM. That's where most of the good shit goes on.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    wulffkz7.png

    (7:29:28 PM) TheSonicRetard: hey, I can also vouch for FyreWulff
    (7:30:26 PM) TheSonicRetard: naw, he's good people.
    (7:30:55 PM) Tweaker: That name sounds too furry for me

    Hahaha, I also saw 645 trying to get in.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Trying to? Please. I aced that BS quiz no problem.

    At any rate, I think one of the bigger reasons that these old Sonic fans have been able to unearth so many things is because almost every major game from Sonic 2 to Sonic X-Treme was developed in America, making it easier for them to get in touch with people who actually worked on these games.

    Sixfortyfive on
    poasting something foolishly foolish.
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Trying to? Please. I aced that BS quiz no problem.

    At any rate, I think one of the bigger reasons that these old Sonic fans have been able to unearth so many things is because every major game from Sonic 2 to Sonic X-Treme was developed in America, making it easier for them to get in touch with people who actually worked on these games.

    They were developed in america using a majority of Sega of Japan staff. Sonic 3 & Knuckles only had maybe 3 or 4 americans on the entire team. After Naka grew tired of SoJ's politics, he moved them to STI (which later becomes Sonic Team USA). Sonic 2 was really the only game in the series developed by a US team, and even that was split between US and Japanese. When Sonic 3 came along, they ditched the US half of the team and demoted them to stuff like Comix Zone.

    Not to mention stuff like Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic Adventure DX, and so forth aren't US developed.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • SonicTweakerSonicTweaker Registered User
    edited February 2008
    I let 645 in because he's clearly hot shit.

    And PACHUKA actually wasn't a child molestor. The more you know! :D

    SonicTweaker on
    tweakersigsonic3sf.png
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Ahh, now Tweaker is a name/face/username I know. Though he probably doesn't know mine.

    All I remember of the Pach stuff is a) laughing at it and all the fights that erupted from it and b) being sad that I thought the cult would presumably shut down with nobody to carry the torch, and as TSR said at that time the cult was all that was left of the hacking/cracking community really.

    He did go to jail though didn't he? I remember that much.

    Either way if the molestation stuff isn't true I can see where it came from. He was always making with the loli pics and had a fetish for Alice (from wonderland.)

    How do I remember this stuff?

    APZonerunner on
    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Anyway

    Has anybody taken an in-depth look at the other Sega betas that came out over the weekend? I've only looked at PSIV so far.

    Sixfortyfive on
    poasting something foolishly foolish.
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Anyway

    Has anybody taken an in-depth look at the other Sega betas that came out over the weekend? I've only looked at PSIV so far.

    Yeah, read my reply.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Trying to? Please. I aced that BS quiz no problem.

    At any rate, I think one of the bigger reasons that these old Sonic fans have been able to unearth so many things is because every major game from Sonic 2 to Sonic X-Treme was developed in America, making it easier for them to get in touch with people who actually worked on these games.

    They were developed in america using a majority of Sega of Japan staff. Sonic 3 & Knuckles only had maybe 3 or 4 americans on the entire team. After Naka grew tired of SoJ's politics, he moved them to STI (which later becomes Sonic Team USA). Sonic 2 was really the only game in the series developed by a US team, and even that was split between US and Japanese. When Sonic 3 came along, they ditched the US half of the team and demoted them to stuff like Comix Zone.

    Not to mention stuff like Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic Adventure DX, and so forth aren't US developed.

    Hey now Comix Zone is pretty cool. :P

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    apps6.gif

    Tweaker says you're Turbo Tails 16 and Alex Prower. You'd be an oldbie if you came back by the by.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Trying to? Please. I aced that BS quiz no problem.

    At any rate, I think one of the bigger reasons that these old Sonic fans have been able to unearth so many things is because every major game from Sonic 2 to Sonic X-Treme was developed in America, making it easier for them to get in touch with people who actually worked on these games.

    They were developed in america using a majority of Sega of Japan staff. Sonic 3 & Knuckles only had maybe 3 or 4 americans on the entire team. After Naka grew tired of SoJ's politics, he moved them to STI (which later becomes Sonic Team USA). Sonic 2 was really the only game in the series developed by a US team, and even that was split between US and Japanese. When Sonic 3 came along, they ditched the US half of the team and demoted them to stuff like Comix Zone.

    Not to mention stuff like Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic Adventure DX, and so forth aren't US developed.

    Hey now Comix Zone is pretty cool. :P

    Yes it was, but the fact is they weren't allowed to work on sonic 3 or Sonic & Knuckles, and it was basically a demotion. I think Comix Zone was much later after Sonic 3's development, so the game they worked on was probably something different. But I do know the team eventually did make Comix Zone.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Holy shit TSR talk about digging up history, I didn't think any of that shit existed anymore.

    Not Turbo Tails, somebody else I think, but the AP bit is right.. AP..Zonerunner, see? And Zonerunners were the anti-robotnik occupation terrorist guys from the UK Sonic comics.

    Might come back. Out of interest, do we know for certain if there was ever a Saturn build of SA1? (I remember speculation based on the Sonic R/Sonic Jam models in the flying stages, but no proof..)

    APZonerunner on
    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Holy shit TSR talk about digging up history, I didn't think any of that shit existed anymore.

    Not Turbo Tails, somebody else I think, but the AP bit is right.. AP..Zonerunner, see? And Zonerunners were the anti-robotnik occupation terrorist guys from the UK Sonic comics.

    Might come back. Out of interest, do we know for certain if there was ever a Saturn build of SA1? (I remember speculation based on the Sonic R/Sonic Jam models in the flying stages, but no proof..)

    There almost assuredly was a Saturn build of SA1. The Sonic Adventure dreamcast model format references quadratics, and I'm checking with SANiK right now, but I don't think any dreamcast games used quads, so it's likely there only to aid in porting saturn models.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • SonicTweakerSonicTweaker Registered User
    edited February 2008
    I did a Google search on "Alex Prower" and it one of the results came up with TT16's devart (who I've known for quite a few years). That's why I thought that much.

    But, um... otherwise, I don't really recognize you by anything other than name. >_> Care to fill me in on where I'd know you? (Feel free to take this to AIM or something if you want)

    SonicTweaker on
    tweakersigsonic3sf.png
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2008
    i'd take the quiz but i have a raging fever/headache right now

    at this moment i do believe the buttons are moving around on their own

    FyreWulff on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    i'd take the quiz but i have a raging fever/headache right now

    at this moment i do believe the buttons are moving around on their own

    quiet, furry!

    TheSonicRetard on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Hm, it seems that Doom for the 32X was worked on even after it's release. There's a version floating around called the Doom RR (re-release?) which shows that it was continued to work on after it's release date, and there are numerous improvements, not least of which being that the action finally takes up the full screen.

    doomfinalgv0ft1.gif
    Final

    doom000gp0go5.gif
    After final (what would you call this... post omega?)

    No word on if the missing levels from the PC version were gonna make it into this version. But still... that's pretty damn perplexing. Even more interesting is that you can see that the doom RR version isn't built off the final version, as it's header still reads "MARS SAMPLE PROGRAM" which is taken straight from the dev examples. The final header, of course, reads "DOOM."

    TheSonicRetard on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2008
    secret Carmack edition?

    FyreWulff on
  • Ninja BotNinja Bot Registered User
    edited February 2008
    So TSR, was that whole supposed link between Michael Jackson and Sonic 3 you guys? Because that was some pretty interesting shit. And did anything more ever come from that?

    Ninja Bot on
  • LorkLork Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    So I was recently introduced to Strider, and while I was playing it I noticed this:
    striderlauncher.png
    sonic2launcher.png
    And this:
    striderupsidedown.png
    snkupsidedown.png
    And this:
    stridergravityroom.png
    snkgravityroom.png
    Coincidence?

    Lork on
    Steam Profile: Lork
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Ninja Bot wrote: »
    So TSR, was that whole supposed link between Michael Jackson and Sonic 3 you guys? Because that was some pretty interesting shit. And did anything more ever come from that?

    FYI, for anyone not convinced: MJ worked on the game. No question. Take a good look at the music credits that are actually displayed in Sonic 3 and Google the names. You'll find stuff like this.

    The only remaining question is how much the soundtrack was edited (if it was edited at all) once Sega decided to start distancing themselves from Jackson because of his scandals.

    Sixfortyfive on
    poasting something foolishly foolish.
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I take it everyone has seen the debug mode inside of the classic sonic games, right?

    If you haven't, and you have a copy of sonic 1 laying around, try this out:

    At the title screen, press Up, C, Down, C, Left, C, Right, C, then hold A and hit start, and hold both A and start until the game begins. You'll enter debug mode, which is what the game designers used to build the object placement for sonic the hedgehog and generally test things out. It's one of the neater secrets of sonic the hedgehog.

    The B button changes you from normal mode to debug mode and back. When in debug mode, press the C button to cycle through available objects for the level, and press A to set them.

    debugin7.png

    It's worth playing around with because you can occasionally see lost objects, or objects which aren't normally in that level. Note that the code I posted is for Sonic 1. Try it out, it's pretty neat.

    So anyways, the reason I'm bringing up debug mode is that, after Sonic & Knuckles, no other sonic game had debug mode. I've always said Sonic Adventure (1) was built closer to a 2D sonic game than any other sonic game, and what was discovered a few days ago really cements the idea.

    In the proto for sonic adventure DX is a fully functional, 3D version of the classic sonic debug mode. Basically every function from the old debug mode is in there, making it an amazingly comprehensive debugging tool.

    debug2jh2.png

    Entering Debug mode.

    debug3gk1.png

    Moving around.

    z3xf2.png

    z4gc5.png

    Even highlight and shadow mode (used for testing solidity and collisions in the 2D games) is present

    stand2it5.png

    And a few lost objects have been found.

    Pretty fucking cool.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Wow, that's pretty damn impressive. SA's dev cycle probably interests me most out of all the Sonic games, save Sonic 2.

    APZonerunner on
    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Ninja Bot wrote: »
    So TSR, was that whole supposed link between Michael Jackson and Sonic 3 you guys? Because that was some pretty interesting shit. And did anything more ever come from that?

    FYI, for anyone not convinced: MJ worked on the game. No question. Take a good look at the music credits that are actually displayed in Sonic 3 and Google the names. You'll find stuff like this.

    The only remaining question is how much the soundtrack was edited (if it was edited at all) once Sega decided to start distancing themselves from Jackson because of his scandals.

    An interview with a member of the team confirmed that Jackson had completed the entire soundtrack for Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, but that none of it was used. The same interview confirmed (before we had seen them) the existence of a Sonic 3 & Knuckles single cart version.

    I personally believe the current soundtrack doesn't contain any of jackson's music, with the possible exceptions being the act 1 boss music from sonic 3 and carnival night zone from sonic 3. And even then I only believe it's possible, but not likely, and only because then the similarities are very striking.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • RocketlexRocketlex Registered User
    edited February 2008
    TSR, can/will you comment more on these "lost objects" later on? I'm always fascinated by that stuff.

    Rocketlex on
    While you were asleep, your windows told me all your secrets.
  • Sci-Fi WasabiSci-Fi Wasabi Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That's neat shit with the 32X Doom, TSR. I wonder why the fuck they would continue work on a port that was essentially left to fend for itself on its own from the beginning. Very fascinating to see just how much of an improvement the "omega" release is. Looks basically like the DOS version.

    Sci-Fi Wasabi on
    sci+fi+wasabi.png
  • Sci-Fi WasabiSci-Fi Wasabi Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    God damn, Sonic 3's ending music and Michael Jackson's Stranger in Moscow are the SAME FUCKING SONG!

    Crazy.

    ristar.png

    Such a better name than Ristar.

    Sci-Fi Wasabi on
    sci+fi+wasabi.png
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    killing double post

    TheSonicRetard on
  • TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Wow, that's pretty damn impressive. SA's dev cycle probably interests me most out of all the Sonic games, save Sonic 2.

    I thought SADX's proto was going to be the least interesting because it's a proto of a port of a finished game.

    ...Nope. SADX actually is built off of a prototype copy of Sonic Adventure. Which makes sense - they didn't take the final game and start from there, they went back a bit. And because of that, lots of very interesting left over bits from SA's development are present, such as the lost Dragon boss and the debug mode.

    SA's development is very interesting. It originally (likely) started on the saturn (interviews have claimed that Sonic Jam's Sonic World is a prototype of the SA for Saturn engine), but was moved to the dreamcast while the DC was still in development! In fact, sonic team (who, at the time, were still the classic sonic team which had given us NiGHTS and Sonic & Knuckles and such) basically had to develop the tools to build sonic adventure from the ground up, which eventually became the official dreamcast dev kit.

    You can look up the dev history of certain games and tell which dev kit they used. All games use either dev kit 1 or dev kit 2. Dev kit 1 was, of course, the first DC dev kit, and Dev Kit 2 is a later kit which improved preformance and allowed for more neat tricks.

    Well, Sonic Adventure uses dev kit 0. It was literally built to the metal for the dreamcast, and considering it was the very first 3D sonic outting, and it was built with no dev kit, I'm usually far more lenient on it than other 3D sonic games. In my opinion, it's the last Sonic Team game which felt like an old sonic game and had the same style of quality that previous sonic team products had. By which I mean, a pretty coherent and lighthearted, but not overbearing story (i.e. no ultimate evil angsty clone hedgehogs or the devil or demons from hell or aliens), level and enemy design consistent with older games (i.e. very flowy levels and enemies modeled after animals instead of humanoid robots), etc. And most of it's dev history reveals why - as I said before, this is the last game that the original sonic team as we'd know them made.

    Midway through SA's development, key members got into disputes and left. Most noticably, Naoto Ohshima, who had been with sonic team since sonic 1, and was the person responsible for most of sonic's character designs (as well as NiGHTS and such) and the director for Sonic CD. After the team split up, Naka moved the team to San Fransisco to become Sonic Team USA, and decided to drastically change the tone of the games. This is where you started seeing a lot more angst, a lot more saturday morning anime-esq plots, a lot more "edgy" atmosphere, etc. Perhaps the best example of the change is from Sonic's character himself. In the original games he's more of a cocky, quiet smartass with a round belly who bops baddies to free animals. Very endearing, as a mascot should be.

    sonic1ff7.jpg

    However, Sonic Adventure 2 onwards saw a drastic change in his character. his quills got longer and less round, his stomach elongated, and he gained a hyper "HOLY FUCK I'M EXTREME LOOK HOW BADASS I AM" personality. You can really see it starting to take off in Heroes:

    teamsonic291004xe0.jpg

    And of course it came to crecendo in Sonic 360:

    sonic1jx2.jpg

    Incidentally, this is why I love Brawl's model for Sonic. He has a very expressive face with more classic proportions. His various facial expressions give off the personality that he used to have in classic drawings, like so:

    sonic071010cllz7.jpg

    technique07071113iloi2.jpg

    hidden05080222clcx0.jpg

    To me, the trick to a good sonic is how you use the mouth. An overbearing grin makes him seem like an asshole, but a very expressive mouth (like in the first shot), or even no mouth at times (like in third shot) can convey so much more. I think the middle shot is perfectly sonic.

    Anyways, since we're getting too far off subject, I'll just say we're probably going to learn a lot more about how Sonic Adventure works and what it's dev history was like.
    God damn, Sonic 3's ending music and Michael Jackson's Stranger in Moscow are the SAME FUCKING SONG!

    Not really, there's a lot of small differences, the biggest one being that Stranger in Moscow is much much slower. Someone, a long long while ago, broke down the music and explained how it sounded like a bunch of songs in actuality, not just stranger in moscow.

    But music isn't my forte, and I can't find the post, so I'll leave it at that.

    TheSonicRetard on
  • JandaruJandaru New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    sonic3dblasttitlecompargj4.gif
    LMAO

    NOT a photoshop.

    Is there something wrong with me if I don't see anything weird about this picture? So Sonic's looking at the camera instead of straight ahead, big deal.

    Jandaru on
    0wCplxc
  • Sci-Fi WasabiSci-Fi Wasabi Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    That picture cracks me up every fucking time.

    Sci-Fi Wasabi on
    sci+fi+wasabi.png
  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    wasn't there an internet meme related to that Sonic picture? With the crazy-eyes?

    slash000 on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2008
    Jandaru wrote: »
    sonic3dblasttitlecompargj4.gif
    LMAO

    NOT a photoshop.

    Is there something wrong with me if I don't see anything weird about this picture? So Sonic's looking at the camera instead of straight ahead, big deal.

    While it would not be incorrect with humans to do the eyes like that, with a cartoon character with huge eyes the pupils should not be that seperated. It would have worked better if the right eye was slightly to the right of the final, but not the dramatic to the right of the prototype.

    FyreWulff on
  • ZackSchillingZackSchilling Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    slash000 wrote: »
    wasn't there an internet meme related to that Sonic picture? With the crazy-eyes?

    Page 39.

    ZackSchilling on
    ghost-robot.jpg
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