So, basically, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Basically, I found the gameplay irritating so I didn't feel like continuing. Anything wrong with that?
Your sample size is alarmingly small. That is a valid criticism of your soapbox.
We know, because it basically says so in the label of the can of metaphorical soup that contains him, that Suda 51 is somewhat an auteur. He makes really, really bizarre products that, for some reason, some people claim to like.
I am one of those people.
However in the swimming pool of Suda 51, you've gotten in up to your ankles. I've not played his DS game but I hear it is the most playable, and must un-Suda, of all his work. Its like a kiddie pool of Suda. So in that respect it is a bit presumptuous for you to discuss the quality of the swimming over in the real pools.
I really really hated Killer 7 when I first played it. It is incomprehensible, and stupid, and not a lot of fun really. But then on a dare, after consuming the significantly more approachable No More Heroes with a friend, we decided we would finish this fucking game regardless of the consequences to our health and well being. And we did. And it was brilliant.
I want to say he is the David Lynch of game creation but that insults both David and Suda. However, I believe that Suda 51 understands, and then uses, the unpleasant feeling an interactive entertainment product can create better than anyone else. Everything that feels wrong or broken is supposed to feel exactly the way it does, and that discordant note is exactly in line with the narrative he wants to relate. Very few game creators master the interactivity of their product as well as he does, and, sure, it is fair to say that lowering (or, maybe more accurately, working around) the quality bar is a bit of a cheap move. But look around you - there are lots of games that are blissfully ignorant of how truly terrible and shallow they are. You'll never be able to say that about a Suda 51 product.
I really wish I could consume them in their original language and culture - I do feel strongly that Killer 7 inherited a bunch of stupidity in the translation and change of societal context - but I am left with an understanding that very few people can do what he does.
And so I unabashedly love his games.
I'd never replay one, mind you. Good lord would it not be worth the trouble.
I found No More Heroes to be only slightly annoying (and I also felt like it was intentional at least with respect to the non-assassination jobs), but I've been unable to finish Contact. The problem with that one is that I'm basically bad at games, and it is not terribly forgiving. I could probably cheese a lot of it, and might do better if I read a walkthrough, but somehow it hasn't compelled me to do so. On the other hand, it's always with my DS, just in case I want to play it. It has a lot of humor that I find very enjoyable, and I just love the way in which I'm addressed directly by the game, and included as part of the game. NMH addresses the player directly at times, but not as fully as it is done in Contact.
So, even though I haven't gotten into the pool proper, I feel that it takes a crazy sort of genius to create those games (and I've watched part of a Killer7 LP just to get a feel for it and it seems crazy as well). I'm glad to have slogged through the slower parts of NMH, just to have enjoyed the hilarious boss fights and plot. His games don't take themselves seriously, and so I feel like I'm laughing along with them, rather than laughing at them. I'm someone who appreciates the absurd, though, so perhaps Suda51 is for me, so long as the game mechanics themselves are reasonably forgiving of my suckitude.
schmads on
Battle.net/SC2: Kwisatz.868 | Steam/XBL/PSN/Gamecenter: schmads | BattleTag/D3: Schmads#1144 | Hero Academy & * With Friends: FallenKwisatz | 3DS: 4356-0128-9671
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
You can't critique Killer7 unless you finish it.
In which case you're admitted to the ranks of those trying to figure out what the hell just happened.
I liked the gameplay, by the way. Unlike No More Heroes, nothing drags it down. And I also liked NMH.
(And keep in mind, NMH2 removes the overworld everyone complains about.)
I mean, come on, it's basically a very complicated light gun game that just isn't any fun on a standard pad. It would have been amazing with some pointer controls!
Killer7's gameplay is pretty boring for the most part. For me, the reason that I finished it, is that the story was so crazy I just wanted to see what came next. One of the very few games for me that I played to see what happened next in the story and not because it was necessarily a lot of fun.
Of his games, I've only played No More Heroes. I enjoyed the crazy style, but stopped playing after a few levels because I was fighting the same guy over and over and the combat mechanic wasn't much fun.
That's the one with the good gameplay, you say?
Yeah that's the only one of his games I've played as well, and I found the combat to be severely lacking compared to pretty much every other game I've played in the genre, and let's not even get into the awful repetition between stages.
Seconding that the style was really enjoyable, though.
All in all I think Suda51 would do a far better job in a position where he could have control over everything except the gameplay.
So, basically, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Basically, I found the gameplay irritating so I didn't feel like continuing. Anything wrong with that?
Yes, because the first level is entirely different from the rest of the game. I remember playing it the first time and thinking "what the fuck". I never picked it up again for years until one of my friends was curious about it. We started from the beginning and again it was very "what the fuck", but after he left for the night I decided to keep playing and see what happened. As the level progressed more things started to click together and it became more interesting... and then I got to the first boss, and the first real cutscene showing what was going on. It was amazing. And it only got more amazing from there. I liked each level better than the last, each fight was more awesome, and each story sequence more insane and wonderful. Finish that first level. Do it.
I wish whoever did the art for Suda51 games would do it for the awesome games. I haven't liked any of the titles he created on his own, but you can't deny each of those games had great style in their art direction.
So basically, a competent developer needs to take the reins for his titles. Apparently he is getting help from Mikami in the next NMH incarnation so thats a plus.
infernovia on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
I don't like your implication that Suda51 isn't a competent developer, sir.
Well, its definitely not his competence that makes me quit No More Heroes so quickly. Man, what if the developers of awesome titles (Mikami, Kamiya, Team Ninja) had awesome art-style like No More Heroes? Immediate best-seller imo.
As I said, someone just needs the reins for the games (like making non-boring combat) and let however Suda's artists work as they always have.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game. They are more interactive experiences with heavy gaming elements than games like the ones made by the developers you listed. It's been mentioned several times in the thread already, but the things that you probably hate and think are poorly designed are actually cleverly crafted mechanisms to convey a feeling. Take for instance the rail like quality of the levels in Killer 7. They gave me a feeling that I was on a predestined coarse to a catastrophic ending. That fits completely into the themes of Killer 7, and that gameplay mechanic creates the sensation without a character popping up every five minutes to infodump that same idea in a cutscene.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game. They are more interactive experiences with heavy gaming elements than games like the ones made by the developers you listed. It's been mentioned several times in the thread already, but the things that you probably hate and think are poorly designed are actually cleverly crafted mechanisms to convey a feeling. Take for instance the rail like quality of the levels in Killer 7. They gave me a feeling that I was on a predestined coarse to a catastrophic ending. That fits completely into the themes of Killer 7, and that gameplay mechanic creates the sensation without a character popping up every five minutes to infodump that same idea in a cutscene.
So do you think NMH compromised its story by having better gameplay than Killer 7?
If not, why would a future game have to compromise its story by having better gameplay than NMH?
Squidget0 on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
NMH is the standard by which I judge all other Wii games with combat. Nothing's come close.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game. They are more interactive experiences with heavy gaming elements than games like the ones made by the developers you listed. It's been mentioned several times in the thread already, but the things that you probably hate and think are poorly designed are actually cleverly crafted mechanisms to convey a feeling. Take for instance the rail like quality of the levels in Killer 7. They gave me a feeling that I was on a predestined coarse to a catastrophic ending. That fits completely into the themes of Killer 7, and that gameplay mechanic creates the sensation without a character popping up every five minutes to infodump that same idea in a cutscene.
So do you think NMH compromised its story by having better gameplay than Killer 7?
If not, why would a future game have to compromise its story by having better gameplay than NMH?
You're thinking about it backwards.
The point is that the mode of gameplay supports the theme and thesis of the game as a whole to better evoke a mood or feeling. It's not about "hurr I made gameplay bad".
If you're assuming that the future game doesn't have Suda directing it, then the story won't be compromised, it just won't have Suda using the techniques he has developed over his career. Which involve changing the gameplay in certain ways to evoke feelings and make a statment, not all of them necessarily positive.
NMH didn't seem like a serious story with a thesis, it seemed like a ridiculous over-the-top video game world adventure. It reminded me of the setting in God Hand: a silly send-up of the tropes in conventional action games.
I didn't get far into it (I think I quit at a boss fight in a classroom of some kind), but the Suda51 you're describing sounds radically different from the Suda51 I played. NMH didn't make me think. It was a silly romp through a crazy world and it didn't try to be anything else. Is there some big twist at the end that makes it thought-provoking?
I don't mean to be negative, by the way. I loved NMH's world and would love to see more ridiculous settings with e-bay lightsabers and enemies that explode in showers of blood and gold. But I can't see how good level design and combat would have made NMH's style any different or any worse.
Squidget0 on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Not exactly thought provoking, but there is one heck of a O_o moment at the end.
NMH didn't seem like a serious story with a thesis, it seemed like a ridiculous over-the-top video game world adventure. It reminded me of the setting in God Hand: a silly send-up of the tropes in conventional action games.
I didn't get far into it (I think I quit at a boss fight in a classroom of some kind), but the Suda51 you're describing sounds radically different from the Suda51 I played. NMH didn't make me think. It was a silly romp through a crazy world and it didn't try to be anything else. Is there some big twist at the end that makes it thought-provoking?
I don't mean to be negative, by the way. I loved NMH's world and would love to see more ridiculous settings with e-bay lightsabers and enemies that explode in showers of blood and gold. But I can't see how good level design and combat would have made NMH's style any different or any worse.
You quit on the third boss battle (the first hard one, for what that's worth). Right around when the "point" starts appearing.
So, basically, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Basically, I found the gameplay irritating so I didn't feel like continuing. Anything wrong with that?
Yes, because the first level is entirely different from the rest of the game. I remember playing it the first time and thinking "what the fuck". I never picked it up again for years until one of my friends was curious about it. We started from the beginning and again it was very "what the fuck", but after he left for the night I decided to keep playing and see what happened. As the level progressed more things started to click together and it became more interesting... and then I got to the first boss, and the first real cutscene showing what was going on. It was amazing. And it only got more amazing from there. I liked each level better than the last, each fight was more awesome, and each story sequence more insane and wonderful. Finish that first level. Do it.
Agreed, the first level of Killer7 isn't representative at all. It's a slow build-up. I was hooked when the Power Rangers showed up.
Vegan on
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AJRSome guy who wrestlesNorwichRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
I’m glad there’s someone like Suda out there, making the kind of games he does. It’s fascinating as hell to read about. I’m actually amazed that Flower, Sun and Rain got released down here.
But outside of the NMH games, I doubt I’ll play any of them.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game.
Note that here is the answer to this:
I don't mean to be negative, by the way. I loved NMH's world and would love to see more ridiculous settings with e-bay lightsabers and enemies that explode in showers of blood and gold. But I can't see how good level design and combat would have made NMH's style any different or any worse.
I want a challenge, variety, fun. Basically a good game.
So you mean Suda does not like the kind who enjoys good games? If Suda's point is that he is making bad games then that certainly cannot be something I would care to play (Suda already noted that NMH was him taking a shit, which explains a lot of things.). Certainly, I would not read Dostoevsky if his writing style was horrible. I suppose you can make a story that has a horrible writing style to make a point, but I can't think of one literature that does it.
Which involve changing the gameplay in certain ways to evoke feelings and make a statment, not all of them necessarily positive.
You are getting it wrong. God Hand evokes a feeling, pac-man evokes a feeling, Deus Ex gets a feeling. What we enjoy is the kinds of emotions a game evokes, the urges it brings out, and the ability to act on these urges and hopefully change them. This is what a good game does. These aren't hindered by good game design but magnified by them. We do not enjoy literature because they do not do things we enjoy for god's sakes, but because of them. The most glorified authors, artists, directors simply magnify the best techniques, that is why they are so well respected.
Now certainly, there are books, movies, music that we read/watch/listen to because they aren't high class literature. But they are just the natural enjoyment of trash. We certainly would not praise them as if they were art because that would obscure why we enjoyed them in the first place.
This is simply something else. This is not the enjoyment of trashy movies, this is the non-enjoyment of bad movies that people pretend is good (note that nobody cares to play through it again, why would they once the message is obvious "Here is a bad game, play it"). As for the game making a statement, I have made more statements here than No More Heroes could do with its million dollars.
As for NMH being the best in the Wii, perhaps. But it probably cannot beat God Hand/DMC/GTAIII in fun.
It should be noted that neither the words "engaging" nor "interesting" necessitate the word "fun". Trying to limp your way back to the ski lodge in whiteout conditions after slamming into a tree as a result of hitting a bump in the course and veering wildly off into unsafe territory is engaging. Being in crippling pain and fearing that you won't make it and that you'll die alone and cold and with so much in the world not yet done isn't what I would call fun.
One of the best levels in NMH is the one where you have to run down a really long corridor. Every now and again there's an enemy. At first I killed them as quickly as possible, since they just come as a pair: leaping attack followed by down attack. The fights are over in seconds. Then as the corridor drags on and on, I started taking my time with the fights because it was something to do. Then I reached the end and noticed that I was missing a card. I realized that the card must be somewhere at the beginning of the level. So I turned around and ran all the way back to the start, got the card, then ran all the way back to the end, then saw a cutscene that seemed to portend an AWESOME BOSS FIGHT which turned out being a massive cockblock. Travis was angry. I was angry. Suda won. Then I had a great laugh about it with my friends, who were also with me while I was playing this level.
I think it's great that somebody out there is willing to try to make games that are entertaining without being fun in a "conventional" sense. Aside from invoking familiar conventions to make the games playable, the way that his games try to present themselves and seek to engage and, yes, entertain, are unconventional. As many have pointed out, his games are full of things that are very well made: the music and audio design are always phenomenal, the visual design is one-of-a-kind, the characters are fascinating and charismatic, and you can't help but be pulled along by his weird weird stories. The gameplay, however, is purpose-driven; and sometimes, that purpose isn't for you to have fun in the way that you would expect.
l_g on
Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
(@ Infernovia) I'm starting to wonder if you even played the game. If nothing else, the combat was top notch. Then again, I dislike DMC, so I have pretty bad opinions.
As for NMH being the best in the Wii, perhaps. But it probably cannot beat God Hand/DMC/GTAIII in fun.
I think that to be honest this is what it comes down to for me as well, I would probably like NHM if the combat was anywhere near as deep as pretty much every other game in the genre that I've played. Going directly from DMC3 to NMH easily showed me just how incredibly shallow NMH's combat was, and that combined with the grinding just killed any motivation I had to get through the game after the first few levels.
I will point out the same things I point out every time these issues come up about NMH:
1) Turbo-jumping and right-angle turns make the town traversals go WAY faster. It sucks that these techniques are completely undocumented, but a little experimentation will reveal them.
2) You only have to do the part-time jobs once to unlock the assassination missions, and you don't have to do the assassination missions all that much to unlock the next ranking battle.
Also, during the ranking battles themselves, the mook fights are increasingly de-emphasized as time goes on. The first few missions are a ton of guys so you learn how to fight. The boss battles are the real deal, and once you've got a grasp on how to quickly destroy the mooks, they let you stop grinding through them so much.
On the whole, I don't believe I found any part of NMH really annoying.
... maybe I'm the kind of guy Travis was meant to mock.
Moe.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game.
Note that here is the answer to this:
I don't mean to be negative, by the way. I loved NMH's world and would love to see more ridiculous settings with e-bay lightsabers and enemies that explode in showers of blood and gold. But I can't see how good level design and combat would have made NMH's style any different or any worse.
I want a challenge, variety, fun. Basically a good game.
So you mean Suda does not like the kind who enjoys good games? If Suda's point is that he is making bad games then that certainly cannot be something I would care to play (Suda already noted that NMH was him taking a shit, which explains a lot of things.). Certainly, I would not read Dostoevsky if his writing style was horrible. I suppose you can make a story that has a horrible writing style to make a point, but I can't think of one literature that does it.
Are you at all familiar with art of the 20th century? Whether we're talking about visual art, or literature, or music, or whatever, pretty much all of the major artistic movements of the past century have been about deconstructing form in order to make a point.
I worked on an opera a few years back entitled Four Saints in Three Acts with a libretto by Gertrude Stein. The lyrics themselves were almost complete gobbledygook, appearing at first glance (and second glance, for that matter) to be nothing more than a bunch of random words strung together because they sounded pretty. If you sat down and tried to*work out precisely how it was telling the story of Saint Teresa of Avila, you'd have an aneurism. However, the piece is brilliant precisely because of that. It is, when all was said and done, a story about the indescribable nature of faith and how it transcends human language, and the use of incomprehensible language only goes to further that point. Someone like Dostoevsky would surely think it a terrible example of literature, since the words used do not appear to even form coherent sentences, let alone explicitly convey narrative thrust or intellectual concepts, but the way Stein distorts the medium evokes a very specific feeling that helps serve the very specific point she is trying to make about the human condition.
Maybe you don't like literature. How about music? John Cage's most famous work is 4'33", in which a performer sits onstage for four minutes and thirty-three seconds without playing a note, the idea being that the audience would start listening to the subtle sounds of their environment and begin to appreciate that as music. You can't analyze this as traditional music because there's nothing to analyze. If someone had tried this in the 18th or 19th century they would be booed out of the concert hall. But once again, Cage had a very specific artistic point to make, and he bends the definition of music in a precise way to make that point.
What Suda's trying to do isn't any different. He takes familiar gameplay elements, distorts them, and then places them in his games to evoke a very specific mood that serves a very specific purpose in conveying an artistic theme. Whether or not he's successful at this is another question (honestly, I think NMH is far from a perfect game), but saying "olol why would you make something intentionally bad?" says to me that you fundamentally don't understand what Suda is trying to accomplish or where he is coming from.
This is not the enjoyment of trashy movies, this is the non-enjoyment of bad movies that people pretend is good
Oh good lord are you wrong. You couldn't be wronger. This is much closer to enjoying a movie that makes you feel horrible on the inside, but that doesn't even cover it.
As for the game making a statement, I have made more statements here than No More Heroes could do with its million dollars.
Fortunately the degree to which this is ridiculous is matched only by the degree to which I believe you genuinely believe this. You really need to look closer if you want to understand these games - not everyone can, most people wouldn't want to. They are working on a much higher level than you are perceiving.
loved Killer 7 to death, one of my favorite games ever, but NMH I just don't get the love for it. Sure it wasn't a bad game by any means, but I just don't see the "ZOMG amazing". I'd like to see it because I love the art direction and the story + hilarity, but it's a "press A" game with a few motion sensing attacks. I just wish there was more to the combat. Nothing along the lines of Bayonetta because accomplishing that would be herculian, but at least give me something more to do than just pressing A a whole bunch.
Are you at all familiar with art of the 20th century? Whether we're talking about visual art, or literature, or music, or whatever, pretty much all of the major artistic movements of the past century have been about deconstructing form in order to make a point.
I am familiar with very few of them, the Dada movement and Andy Warhol. The events that they have created is not the deconstruction of form to make a point, the deconstruction (death) of art WAS the point (the event). This is why they made such an impact when they were created (Duchamp's urinal and Andy Warhol's Campbell Soup).
If someone had tried this in the 18th or 19th century they would be booed out of the concert hall. But once again, Cage had a very specific artistic point to make, and he bends the definition of music in a precise way to make that point.
Yeah, the point was that the death of art has already happened and everyone is trying to guilt you because people do not recognize it (do not want to or care to). This is all that is left of the tradition of art. It was because people would have booed him off of the stage that there was still something left of art in the 18th century, imagine it happening in the 4th century. Would the greeks even bother with the 3 splatters of paint that goes for art these days?
Do you understand that current artists have sold cans of their shit to people? If this is the art world you speak of, then I would not even consider saying Suda's games are art as anything complimentary.
This is much closer to enjoying a movie that makes you feel horrible on the inside, but that doesn't even cover it.
Then what does it cover?
This is enjoying a boring movie that tries to make you feel bad. Even if the artist is trying to make the statement, and you see the statement, it mostly works AGAINST it. I have seen many movies that do this, and while I am sure they put a lot of thought for it, I would be hard-pressed to acknowledge them as good. Why? Because artist intentions are boring once you see it and its easier to communicate messages through language anyway.
He takes familiar gameplay elements, distorts them, and then places them in his games to evoke a very specific mood that serves a very specific purpose in conveying an artistic theme.
And what I am telling you is that his game evokes boredom. Mash A and you win. If that was his intention, he certainly achieved it. He probably intended that I would quit the game that quickly too. And since I did not buy the game, and just borrowed it, everyone is happy!
Fortunately the degree to which this is ridiculous is matched only by the degree to which I believe you genuinely believe this. You really need to look closer if you want to understand these games - not everyone can, most people wouldn't want to. They are working on a much higher level than you are perceiving.
People certainly try to build very tall buildings with no foundations. Break apart the foundation and what is left of their perception?
infernovia on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
It's just not for you. I don't understand why don't get this.
There's nothing wrong with that by the way. I'm not trying to be insulting. It works in the same way that GTA IV is not for me.
Most of the people telling him off for missing a point are also missing a point. The point of making a point is for that point to penetrate into people's mind. Deep penetration of a concept into your mind occurs only with discussion. If you are truly equating Suda51 with that kind of art, someone not seeing it as art is essential to it's justification as such.
This is different to saying it's not for him. Disapproval by some is essential to the critical process. People must have negative feelings about this, and the idea that it's not for them, and they don't get it, and that's the problem is not one I'd personally buy into.
I have other issues with the idea of games as that kind of art, mostly the fact you have to pay for them, and thus you should have a right to expect something not specifically designed to work against having fun. However, i also understand he's a tinkerer, he likes to experiment, and it is the only way games will evolve as a creative medium. Someone still needs to figure out how to effectively use them to tell a story in a way unique to themselves.
The point of making a point is for that point to penetrate into people's mind.
Yeah.
In other words, art makes a deep impression in people that changes the way they perceive things. Like back in Ancient Greece, all of their artwork were created by the deep seated belief of their own deity, and each of their art glorified it again in response. It was this mirror of reality, except one that strengthens the difference between them and us, that has been called art.
The famous portrait of Napolean could not be called accurate, seeing the obvious deification, royal belief of Napolean the artist had in his creation. This is what makes it still famous in the art world. But what is left of this? That no music is music. That using ready-mades makes us sculptors. That shit is art now.
The point of making a point is for that point to penetrate into people's mind. Deep penetration of a concept into your mind occurs only with discussion.
I don't know about that.
Btw, speaking of selling cans of shit to people, here is Suda describing NMH:
"A lot of things influenced No More Heroes - things I saw, or heard, and something that came from inside. Something that needed to be eliminated from my body, like waste. That's why I created No More Heroes"
There's nothing wrong with that by the way. I'm not trying to be insulting. It works in the same way that GTA IV is not for me.
I actually like 3D action and GTA III, the games NMH uses as a base. And I enjoyed the visuals. I could probably even enjoy the story. But the game bores me, and that needs to be fixed.
So like I said, all game decisions and things relating to game decisions should be given to someone competent and we could be looking at a bestseller.
Edit: Btw, I haven't played Killer 7. I heard that one in particular was good.
Edit2: And apparently because Mikami was involved in it.
Posts
Your sample size is alarmingly small. That is a valid criticism of your soapbox.
We know, because it basically says so in the label of the can of metaphorical soup that contains him, that Suda 51 is somewhat an auteur. He makes really, really bizarre products that, for some reason, some people claim to like.
I am one of those people.
However in the swimming pool of Suda 51, you've gotten in up to your ankles. I've not played his DS game but I hear it is the most playable, and must un-Suda, of all his work. Its like a kiddie pool of Suda. So in that respect it is a bit presumptuous for you to discuss the quality of the swimming over in the real pools.
I really really hated Killer 7 when I first played it. It is incomprehensible, and stupid, and not a lot of fun really. But then on a dare, after consuming the significantly more approachable No More Heroes with a friend, we decided we would finish this fucking game regardless of the consequences to our health and well being. And we did. And it was brilliant.
I want to say he is the David Lynch of game creation but that insults both David and Suda. However, I believe that Suda 51 understands, and then uses, the unpleasant feeling an interactive entertainment product can create better than anyone else. Everything that feels wrong or broken is supposed to feel exactly the way it does, and that discordant note is exactly in line with the narrative he wants to relate. Very few game creators master the interactivity of their product as well as he does, and, sure, it is fair to say that lowering (or, maybe more accurately, working around) the quality bar is a bit of a cheap move. But look around you - there are lots of games that are blissfully ignorant of how truly terrible and shallow they are. You'll never be able to say that about a Suda 51 product.
I really wish I could consume them in their original language and culture - I do feel strongly that Killer 7 inherited a bunch of stupidity in the translation and change of societal context - but I am left with an understanding that very few people can do what he does.
And so I unabashedly love his games.
I'd never replay one, mind you. Good lord would it not be worth the trouble.
...for whatever that is worth.
猿も木から落ちる
I found No More Heroes to be only slightly annoying (and I also felt like it was intentional at least with respect to the non-assassination jobs), but I've been unable to finish Contact. The problem with that one is that I'm basically bad at games, and it is not terribly forgiving. I could probably cheese a lot of it, and might do better if I read a walkthrough, but somehow it hasn't compelled me to do so. On the other hand, it's always with my DS, just in case I want to play it. It has a lot of humor that I find very enjoyable, and I just love the way in which I'm addressed directly by the game, and included as part of the game. NMH addresses the player directly at times, but not as fully as it is done in Contact.
So, even though I haven't gotten into the pool proper, I feel that it takes a crazy sort of genius to create those games (and I've watched part of a Killer7 LP just to get a feel for it and it seems crazy as well). I'm glad to have slogged through the slower parts of NMH, just to have enjoyed the hilarious boss fights and plot. His games don't take themselves seriously, and so I feel like I'm laughing along with them, rather than laughing at them. I'm someone who appreciates the absurd, though, so perhaps Suda51 is for me, so long as the game mechanics themselves are reasonably forgiving of my suckitude.
In which case you're admitted to the ranks of those trying to figure out what the hell just happened.
I liked the gameplay, by the way. Unlike No More Heroes, nothing drags it down. And I also liked NMH.
(And keep in mind, NMH2 removes the overworld everyone complains about.)
Yeah that's the only one of his games I've played as well, and I found the combat to be severely lacking compared to pretty much every other game I've played in the genre, and let's not even get into the awful repetition between stages.
Seconding that the style was really enjoyable, though.
All in all I think Suda51 would do a far better job in a position where he could have control over everything except the gameplay.
But that would be like putting Michael Bay in a job where has control over everything except the amount of explosions.
I think you mean only the amount of explosions!
Yes, because the first level is entirely different from the rest of the game. I remember playing it the first time and thinking "what the fuck". I never picked it up again for years until one of my friends was curious about it. We started from the beginning and again it was very "what the fuck", but after he left for the night I decided to keep playing and see what happened. As the level progressed more things started to click together and it became more interesting... and then I got to the first boss, and the first real cutscene showing what was going on. It was amazing. And it only got more amazing from there. I liked each level better than the last, each fight was more awesome, and each story sequence more insane and wonderful. Finish that first level. Do it.
We are in a tight spot.
So basically, a competent developer needs to take the reins for his titles. Apparently he is getting help from Mikami in the next NMH incarnation so thats a plus.
I feel pretty safe in saying that you aren't the kind of person Suda51 has in mind when he is designing a game. They are more interactive experiences with heavy gaming elements than games like the ones made by the developers you listed. It's been mentioned several times in the thread already, but the things that you probably hate and think are poorly designed are actually cleverly crafted mechanisms to convey a feeling. Take for instance the rail like quality of the levels in Killer 7. They gave me a feeling that I was on a predestined coarse to a catastrophic ending. That fits completely into the themes of Killer 7, and that gameplay mechanic creates the sensation without a character popping up every five minutes to infodump that same idea in a cutscene.
So do you think NMH compromised its story by having better gameplay than Killer 7?
If not, why would a future game have to compromise its story by having better gameplay than NMH?
You're thinking about it backwards.
The point is that the mode of gameplay supports the theme and thesis of the game as a whole to better evoke a mood or feeling. It's not about "hurr I made gameplay bad".
If you're assuming that the future game doesn't have Suda directing it, then the story won't be compromised, it just won't have Suda using the techniques he has developed over his career. Which involve changing the gameplay in certain ways to evoke feelings and make a statment, not all of them necessarily positive.
I didn't get far into it (I think I quit at a boss fight in a classroom of some kind), but the Suda51 you're describing sounds radically different from the Suda51 I played. NMH didn't make me think. It was a silly romp through a crazy world and it didn't try to be anything else. Is there some big twist at the end that makes it thought-provoking?
I don't mean to be negative, by the way. I loved NMH's world and would love to see more ridiculous settings with e-bay lightsabers and enemies that explode in showers of blood and gold. But I can't see how good level design and combat would have made NMH's style any different or any worse.
Actually, a few of them.
You quit on the third boss battle (the first hard one, for what that's worth). Right around when the "point" starts appearing.
Read this
Agreed, the first level of Killer7 isn't representative at all. It's a slow build-up. I was hooked when the Power Rangers showed up.
But outside of the NMH games, I doubt I’ll play any of them.
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Note that here is the answer to this:
I want a challenge, variety, fun. Basically a good game.
So you mean Suda does not like the kind who enjoys good games? If Suda's point is that he is making bad games then that certainly cannot be something I would care to play (Suda already noted that NMH was him taking a shit, which explains a lot of things.). Certainly, I would not read Dostoevsky if his writing style was horrible. I suppose you can make a story that has a horrible writing style to make a point, but I can't think of one literature that does it.
You are getting it wrong. God Hand evokes a feeling, pac-man evokes a feeling, Deus Ex gets a feeling. What we enjoy is the kinds of emotions a game evokes, the urges it brings out, and the ability to act on these urges and hopefully change them. This is what a good game does. These aren't hindered by good game design but magnified by them. We do not enjoy literature because they do not do things we enjoy for god's sakes, but because of them. The most glorified authors, artists, directors simply magnify the best techniques, that is why they are so well respected.
Now certainly, there are books, movies, music that we read/watch/listen to because they aren't high class literature. But they are just the natural enjoyment of trash. We certainly would not praise them as if they were art because that would obscure why we enjoyed them in the first place.
This is simply something else. This is not the enjoyment of trashy movies, this is the non-enjoyment of bad movies that people pretend is good (note that nobody cares to play through it again, why would they once the message is obvious "Here is a bad game, play it"). As for the game making a statement, I have made more statements here than No More Heroes could do with its million dollars.
As for NMH being the best in the Wii, perhaps. But it probably cannot beat God Hand/DMC/GTAIII in fun.
It should be noted that neither the words "engaging" nor "interesting" necessitate the word "fun". Trying to limp your way back to the ski lodge in whiteout conditions after slamming into a tree as a result of hitting a bump in the course and veering wildly off into unsafe territory is engaging. Being in crippling pain and fearing that you won't make it and that you'll die alone and cold and with so much in the world not yet done isn't what I would call fun.
One of the best levels in NMH is the one where you have to run down a really long corridor. Every now and again there's an enemy. At first I killed them as quickly as possible, since they just come as a pair: leaping attack followed by down attack. The fights are over in seconds. Then as the corridor drags on and on, I started taking my time with the fights because it was something to do. Then I reached the end and noticed that I was missing a card. I realized that the card must be somewhere at the beginning of the level. So I turned around and ran all the way back to the start, got the card, then ran all the way back to the end, then saw a cutscene that seemed to portend an AWESOME BOSS FIGHT which turned out being a massive cockblock. Travis was angry. I was angry. Suda won. Then I had a great laugh about it with my friends, who were also with me while I was playing this level.
I think it's great that somebody out there is willing to try to make games that are entertaining without being fun in a "conventional" sense. Aside from invoking familiar conventions to make the games playable, the way that his games try to present themselves and seek to engage and, yes, entertain, are unconventional. As many have pointed out, his games are full of things that are very well made: the music and audio design are always phenomenal, the visual design is one-of-a-kind, the characters are fascinating and charismatic, and you can't help but be pulled along by his weird weird stories. The gameplay, however, is purpose-driven; and sometimes, that purpose isn't for you to have fun in the way that you would expect.
I think that to be honest this is what it comes down to for me as well, I would probably like NHM if the combat was anywhere near as deep as pretty much every other game in the genre that I've played. Going directly from DMC3 to NMH easily showed me just how incredibly shallow NMH's combat was, and that combined with the grinding just killed any motivation I had to get through the game after the first few levels.
1) Turbo-jumping and right-angle turns make the town traversals go WAY faster. It sucks that these techniques are completely undocumented, but a little experimentation will reveal them.
2) You only have to do the part-time jobs once to unlock the assassination missions, and you don't have to do the assassination missions all that much to unlock the next ranking battle.
Also, during the ranking battles themselves, the mook fights are increasingly de-emphasized as time goes on. The first few missions are a ton of guys so you learn how to fight. The boss battles are the real deal, and once you've got a grasp on how to quickly destroy the mooks, they let you stop grinding through them so much.
On the whole, I don't believe I found any part of NMH really annoying.
... maybe I'm the kind of guy Travis was meant to mock.
Are you at all familiar with art of the 20th century? Whether we're talking about visual art, or literature, or music, or whatever, pretty much all of the major artistic movements of the past century have been about deconstructing form in order to make a point.
I worked on an opera a few years back entitled Four Saints in Three Acts with a libretto by Gertrude Stein. The lyrics themselves were almost complete gobbledygook, appearing at first glance (and second glance, for that matter) to be nothing more than a bunch of random words strung together because they sounded pretty. If you sat down and tried to*work out precisely how it was telling the story of Saint Teresa of Avila, you'd have an aneurism. However, the piece is brilliant precisely because of that. It is, when all was said and done, a story about the indescribable nature of faith and how it transcends human language, and the use of incomprehensible language only goes to further that point. Someone like Dostoevsky would surely think it a terrible example of literature, since the words used do not appear to even form coherent sentences, let alone explicitly convey narrative thrust or intellectual concepts, but the way Stein distorts the medium evokes a very specific feeling that helps serve the very specific point she is trying to make about the human condition.
Maybe you don't like literature. How about music? John Cage's most famous work is 4'33", in which a performer sits onstage for four minutes and thirty-three seconds without playing a note, the idea being that the audience would start listening to the subtle sounds of their environment and begin to appreciate that as music. You can't analyze this as traditional music because there's nothing to analyze. If someone had tried this in the 18th or 19th century they would be booed out of the concert hall. But once again, Cage had a very specific artistic point to make, and he bends the definition of music in a precise way to make that point.
What Suda's trying to do isn't any different. He takes familiar gameplay elements, distorts them, and then places them in his games to evoke a very specific mood that serves a very specific purpose in conveying an artistic theme. Whether or not he's successful at this is another question (honestly, I think NMH is far from a perfect game), but saying "olol why would you make something intentionally bad?" says to me that you fundamentally don't understand what Suda is trying to accomplish or where he is coming from.
Oh good lord are you wrong. You couldn't be wronger. This is much closer to enjoying a movie that makes you feel horrible on the inside, but that doesn't even cover it.
Fortunately the degree to which this is ridiculous is matched only by the degree to which I believe you genuinely believe this. You really need to look closer if you want to understand these games - not everyone can, most people wouldn't want to. They are working on a much higher level than you are perceiving.
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Yeah, the point was that the death of art has already happened and everyone is trying to guilt you because people do not recognize it (do not want to or care to). This is all that is left of the tradition of art. It was because people would have booed him off of the stage that there was still something left of art in the 18th century, imagine it happening in the 4th century. Would the greeks even bother with the 3 splatters of paint that goes for art these days?
Do you understand that current artists have sold cans of their shit to people? If this is the art world you speak of, then I would not even consider saying Suda's games are art as anything complimentary.
Then what does it cover?
This is enjoying a boring movie that tries to make you feel bad. Even if the artist is trying to make the statement, and you see the statement, it mostly works AGAINST it. I have seen many movies that do this, and while I am sure they put a lot of thought for it, I would be hard-pressed to acknowledge them as good. Why? Because artist intentions are boring once you see it and its easier to communicate messages through language anyway.
And what I am telling you is that his game evokes boredom. Mash A and you win. If that was his intention, he certainly achieved it. He probably intended that I would quit the game that quickly too. And since I did not buy the game, and just borrowed it, everyone is happy!
People certainly try to build very tall buildings with no foundations. Break apart the foundation and what is left of their perception?
There's nothing wrong with that by the way. I'm not trying to be insulting. It works in the same way that GTA IV is not for me.
This is different to saying it's not for him. Disapproval by some is essential to the critical process. People must have negative feelings about this, and the idea that it's not for them, and they don't get it, and that's the problem is not one I'd personally buy into.
I have other issues with the idea of games as that kind of art, mostly the fact you have to pay for them, and thus you should have a right to expect something not specifically designed to work against having fun. However, i also understand he's a tinkerer, he likes to experiment, and it is the only way games will evolve as a creative medium. Someone still needs to figure out how to effectively use them to tell a story in a way unique to themselves.
In other words, art makes a deep impression in people that changes the way they perceive things. Like back in Ancient Greece, all of their artwork were created by the deep seated belief of their own deity, and each of their art glorified it again in response. It was this mirror of reality, except one that strengthens the difference between them and us, that has been called art.
The famous portrait of Napolean could not be called accurate, seeing the obvious deification, royal belief of Napolean the artist had in his creation. This is what makes it still famous in the art world. But what is left of this? That no music is music. That using ready-mades makes us sculptors. That shit is art now.
I don't know about that.
Btw, speaking of selling cans of shit to people, here is Suda describing NMH: http://wii.kombo.com/article.php?artid=14454
I actually like 3D action and GTA III, the games NMH uses as a base. And I enjoyed the visuals. I could probably even enjoy the story. But the game bores me, and that needs to be fixed.
So like I said, all game decisions and things relating to game decisions should be given to someone competent and we could be looking at a bestseller.
Edit: Btw, I haven't played Killer 7. I heard that one in particular was good.
Edit2: And apparently because Mikami was involved in it.