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[Infinity] N3 out: Only in USAriadna can you find a Coke Bottling Plant in the year 2185

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Posts

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    The throw, as we played it, could not have happened since the target trooper was still in a camo marker state so he could not be targeted, even indirectly? That's really dumb.

    Dear CB,
    Play an FPS. See also: splash damage.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    The throw, as we played it, could not have happened since the target trooper was still in a camo marker state so he could not be targeted, even indirectly? That's really dumb.

    Dear CB,
    Play an FPS. See also: splash damage.

    The fact that you know the camo token is there is information your trooper doesn't have, and therefore you are exploiting metagame information to gain an advantage. That rule exists to remove that advantage.

    Alternately it's about balance, not realism.

    ElldrenLanlaorn
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    That's what discover rolls and/or intuitive attacks are for

    fuck gendered marketing
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Oh I get it. I'm just unreasonably salty about it because I want to toss grenades blindly like my dollies are playing CoD.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • mr_michmr_mich Registered User regular
    You wouldn't blindly waste grenades in XCOM, would you?

  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    The fact that you know the camo token is there is information your trooper doesn't have, and therefore you are exploiting metagame information to gain an advantage. That rule exists to remove that advantage.

    Alternately it's about balance, not realism.

    Reminds me of something Bostria said. With N2, they tried to make a realistic game. It worked, but not as well as they'd hoped. With N3, they finally decided to just make a game.

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 17
    Yeah, it shows.

    admanb on
  • DayspringDayspring the Phoenician Registered User regular
    I always assumed camo tokens were kinda like blips in space hulk, i.e. glitchy spots of potential mis-information that nonetheless keeps your guys from blindly running into mines

  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Dayspring wrote: »
    I always assumed camo tokens were kinda like blips in space hulk, i.e. glitchy spots of potential mis-information that nonetheless keeps your guys from blindly running into mines

    Pretty much. That's why it's good to have things like infiltrating minelayers. You have a mine and a dude in camo within 8" of each other. The opponent knows something is there, but not what, and the mine doubles up on the confusion.

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    I mean, 'realism' wise Infinity lore on hacking would imply that more or less every single operative (who isn't Ariadnan) leaves enough of a digital trail to be constantly spotted through walls. So I think it's best not to think too hard on that front.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    What I don't understand is that I can drop a mine normally without anyone around, no penalty, but if there's a camo marker (which by game logic I don't know exists) I suddenly have to roll.
    I mean, 'realism' wise Infinity lore on hacking would imply that more or less every single operative (who isn't Ariadnan) leaves enough of a digital trail to be constantly spotted through walls. So I think it's best not to think too hard on that front.

    Everyone is constantly connected to each other via interwebs, which is why isolation is a thing. I imagine ZoC is like walking into Bluetooth range; you're putting out data, so your data can be picked up.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I think camo markers are meant to represent something that might be a little off. Like it could be an enemy combatant. Or it could be a mouse. Or a kid. Etc.

    Like the troopers know something is there and can act cautiously in light of that, but they can't just open fire.

    It makes more sense to me the more thought I put into it.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Can't just chuck grenades around because that weird thing on the HUD might be a small child or whatever

    and that's terrible optics, terrible. Media will be all over it. Kill enemy operators and nobody else!

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Super okay to torch them with a flamethrower though.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
    Elldren
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    What I don't understand is that I can drop a mine normally without anyone around, no penalty, but if there's a camo marker (which by game logic I don't know exists) I suddenly have to roll.
    Because you need to have a game mechanic in a situation where 'I'm dropping a mine here because my player knows there's an enemy right there because this is a game.' Otherwise, the models that have no in-game ability to interact with the marker are able to perfectly drop a mine on them every time.

    If it's of use, Episode 10 of Personal Flashpaper talks about basics of mine useage.

    https://personalflashpaper.podbean.com/

    squigsig_zpsyo1fqhao.jpg
    Albino Bunny
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Can't just chuck grenades around because that weird thing on the HUD might be a small child or whatever

    and that's terrible optics, terrible. Media will be all over it. Kill enemy operators and nobody else!

    I would genuinely love if they introduced a Warcor model that interacted with the concillium conventions and allowed/banned weapons in some way.

    Solar
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Can't just chuck grenades around because that weird thing on the HUD might be a small child or whatever

    and that's terrible optics, terrible. Media will be all over it. Kill enemy operators and nobody else!

    I would genuinely love if they introduced a Warcor model that interacted with the concillium conventions and allowed/banned weapons in some way.

    It would make a pretty boring game. Most of the fun stuff is banned.

    Which also makes me laugh at everyone requesting an O-12 faction. They either stick with using non-banned weapons because they're the O-12 and have a pretty boring faction, or use banned weapons and need to some up with a reason they're doing so.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    What I don't understand is that I can drop a mine normally without anyone around, no penalty, but if there's a camo marker (which by game logic I don't know exists) I suddenly have to roll.
    Because you need to have a game mechanic in a situation where 'I'm dropping a mine here because my player knows there's an enemy right there because this is a game.' Otherwise, the models that have no in-game ability to interact with the marker are able to perfectly drop a mine on them every time.

    If it's of use, Episode 10 of Personal Flashpaper talks about basics of mine useage.

    https://personalflashpaper.podbean.com/

    Yeah, I just don't see why it's necessary to add a fiddly rule for such a narrow scenario. Especially when there's an easy enough way to disable them (discover->shoot the mine), there's anti-mine remotes in nearly every faction, MSVs are already very useful, and the Minelayer skill normally costs SWC. It's not like camouflage is a weak mechanic to begin with, people have been spamming it since I started in N2.

    Not that it's a big deal or anything. I just dislike it from a design sense, most minelayers have a pretty high WIP anyway.

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    It's the opposite of fiddly as it's consistent with the overall rule that anything that can directly affect camo tokens requires a WIP check.

    Lanlaorn
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Which makes Haqqislam again the best at something. The best Doctors, the best button pushers, the best at shooting blips with superheated chain link. Gotta love WIP 14.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    You could also say its inconsistent as placing a mine doesn't normally require a roll.

    Mines don't directly effect camouflage. Mines directly effect models using orders within its ZoC, which has nothing to do with camouflage. If you want mines to make a WIP check to successfully fire on camo markers, that makes a lot more sense to me.

    mr_mich
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Chain rifles also don't require a roll, until you fire one at a camo token.

    And you can use them offensively by dropping one and then doing stuff in front of the camo token -- either against it or just running around in front of it -- since it can't react without triggering the mine.

    ElldrenLanlaorn
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    edited May 18
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    You could also say its inconsistent as placing a mine doesn't normally require a roll.
    No, it's neither fiddly or inconsistent. It deals with the fact that players have more knowledge of the game than the models do, does it consistently, and keeps a decent weapon from being an unavoidable hard counter. Camo tokens aren't exactly rare. Didn't we just have a post a couple of page back about how his opponent's courtesy list had like, one model on it? :lol:

    Gabriel_Pitt on
    squigsig_zpsyo1fqhao.jpg
    Lanlaorn
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    You could also say its inconsistent as placing a mine doesn't normally require a roll.
    No, it's neither fiddly or inconsistent. It deals with the fact that players have more knowledge of the game than the models do, does it consistently, and keeps a decent weapon from being an unavoidable hard counter. Camo tokens aren't exactly rare. Didn't we just have a post a couple of page back about how his opponent's courtesy list had like, one model on it? :lol:

    yeah and every single model in his army had mines too

    I did a lot of discover -> shoot that game, let me tell you

    (also turns out heavy rocket launchers are really good at taking out mine clusters)

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Can't just chuck grenades around because that weird thing on the HUD might be a small child or whatever

    and that's terrible optics, terrible. Media will be all over it. Kill enemy operators and nobody else!

    I would genuinely love if they introduced a Warcor model that interacted with the concillium conventions and allowed/banned weapons in some way.

    It would make a pretty boring game. Most of the fun stuff is banned.

    Which also makes me laugh at everyone requesting an O-12 faction. They either stick with using non-banned weapons because they're the O-12 and have a pretty boring faction, or use banned weapons and need to some up with a reason they're doing so.

    O-12 absolutely uses banned stuff. The whole point of the conventions lore wise is to show how impotent O-12 are to actually dictate to the major powers of the human sphere. If nothing else Bureau Noir agents don't give a flying fuck about them and don't have the oversight to prevent them ignoring the limits.

    And yeah, I wouldn't want it to remove the use of banned weapons. Just make it a bit of a consideration when in line of sight of the Warcor. Maybe just a flat one point penalty or something if the Warcor passes a WIP check as a reaction to offending weapons being used.

  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Which makes Haqqislam again the best at something. The best Doctors, the best button pushers, the best at shooting blips with superheated chain link. Gotta love WIP 14.

    Haqq are already the best faction at dealing with Camo by an absurd margin because of how broken Ghazi Mutt's are and how badly thought out the rules on the Jammer are. The Jammer requires no LoF to use but otherwise still takes the penalties that a normal BS attack would make if it's been used against a model, so Cover, Camo all those negative mods apply. Makes sense so far, and then you remember that they gave the stupid thing Intuitive attack...

    This is what breaks the already stupidly good Ghazi profile, because now you have a 5 point model that discovers models out of LoS on WIP 15 that cannot be modified, and the opponent either has to gamble on the 25% chance of you failing or else declare a reset which reveals them anyway. So you have a TO Camo Marker up against a wall with a Ghazi on the other side, the Ghazi makes a discover shot on 15s, and you reset and beat it, from here on out the Ghazi is now looking for 6s to succeed because now that it knows that it's a model and isn't just a marker it now has to use it's regular attack and takes -6 from TO Camo and -3 from Cover.

    TL:DR Whoever thought it was a good idea to give a 5 point WIP 15 model both smoke grenades and a weapon that can attack from out of LoS and has a special rule designed for template weapons is such a shockingly bad game designer that I'm amazed that they aren't working for Games Workshop.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Heh, I didn't even realize Ghazi were WIP 15, I've been using them as WIP 14 all this time.

    No arguments though. They're absurd for their cost and one of the few units where I look at them and think 'their magic formula did not produce the cost for this'. Extremely Irregular and Impetuous together reduce a units cost a lot, but 5pts doesn't make sense on Ghazi, unless they dramatically undervalued Jammers and E/Marats.

    I think the E/Marat is the bigger offender than the Jammer. Large teardrop EM attack, which is direct template. About 70% or better chance, due to EM halving BTS and no TAGs having higher than BTS 9, to one shot IMM-2 and Isolate a TAG or HI link with a 5pt model just is not right.

    That said, boy do I love using them.

    -Loki- on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    I'd bet money of the Ghazi being the result of a couple of designers having a fight about the 'magic formula' everything about the model seems tailor-made to produce the most ridiculously undercosted model in the game. Ballistic Skill of less than 10 that it will never use for a points reduction. Extreme Impetuous for another points reduction, chain rifle and irregular for more of them... all these 'downsides' which are basically just supporting what the Ghazi wants to do anyway.

    If I was doing the profiles, I'd take the Jammer away because it's stupid and no gun should work like that, and instead replace it with Berzerk and instead of a melee weapon the Ghazi would have Electric Pulse, so you'd have a dogged madman who'd throw his body against a TAG, dying in the process to lock the walking tank down for a round.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    If I was doing the profiles, I'd take the Jammer away because it's stupid and no gun should work like that, and instead replace it with Berzerk and instead of a melee weapon the Ghazi would have Electric Pulse, so you'd have a dogged madman who'd throw his body against a TAG, dying in the process to lock the walking tank down for a round.

    Ghazi used to be suicide units.The E/Marat was a circular template centered on them because it was basically an EM suicide vest.

    In Paradiso they deliberately redesigned them to be communications units. That's why they got the Jammer, they're listening to enemy communication and interfering with it.

    CB were uncomfortable with having a suicide bomber in the faction representing Islam.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    So what you're saying is I should buy a box of them?

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    So what you're saying is I should buy a box of them?

    Oh my yes.

  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    General consensus is theyreas close to an auto include as you'll find in the game. For 5pts they have a Chain Rifle to deal with grouped enemies, an E/Marat to deal with HI and TAGs, a Jammer to deal with things out of LoS and for shits and giggles they gave them smoke grenades for free.

    I don't always include them, and only sometimes miss them when I don't, but when I use them they rarely fail to impress.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Pity I don't like the models.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    A Ghazi has more weapons than it's points costs plus wip 15 and dogged, there's zero reason not to field 4. No matter what army you are playing just lie and say that Ghazi are in Combined or Tohaa and see if your opponent will let you get away with it.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 22
    I've never fielded 4. The most ill field is 2. Mostly because there's other Irregular units I like - Kum, Hunzakut, Bashi Bazouk. And the most irregular I'll field in a single combat group is two.

    -Loki- on
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I was planning on switching from vanilla Aleph to sectorial Haqq as my main faction for a while, but then I played a bunch of casual games where opponents insisted on Firefight and then brought something like an Avatar.

    So I stopped playing Haqq.

  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Funnily enough, with the current discussion, an Avatar in a low points game is why you should play Haqq. At least vanilla or Hassassin Bahram.

    A 5pt Ghazi can drop an E/Marat on it. D13 against BTS 5 (EM halves BTS). Arm 9? Pfft. Str 3? Great. ODD? That's nice. Take a BTS 5 save against D13 or go into IMM-2 state and be Isolated. That 137pt awesome TAG just becomes a paperweight. From a 5pt model. Want a better chance? As said, just take 4 of the buggers for 20pts.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    New sale going up, I wonder what the shipping cost is to 'murica.

    ‎€50 a piece

    Aleph Starter
    Deva Functionaires
    Garuda Tactbot w/ Spitfire
    Daysus Hacker


    QK Starter
    KTS box
    Bashi Bazouk w/ BS
    Azra'il


    Corregidor Starter
    Intruder HMG
    Jaguar box
    Wildcat w/ Spitfire
    Senor Massacre


    NCA Starter
    Hexas w/ Sniper
    Aquila w/ HMG
    Squalos


    Rasail Boarding Team
    Support box
    Preceptor box

    ISS Box
    Si-Jian
    Sun Tze
    Lucien Sforza


    Ariadna Starter
    Spetsnazs w/ HMG
    Dog Warriors

    Morat box
    Witch Soldier box
    Suryats w/ HMG
    Kornak


    I'm gonna pick up that Morat pack, assuming the shipping is reasonable. I can fill it out with a Preta box for an easy 300pts!

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    Corregidor and the Imperial Service are both super good mixes of practical stuff with fun toys.

    But on the other hand then you're playing worst Nomads. So is your soul really worth that sweet deal?

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    I love Nomads and am actually missing a bunch of Corregidor stuff but from prior experience the Corvus Belli official site shipping costs are outrageously high for some reason. This deal probably won't be worth it in the US.

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