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Somalia: Biting the hand that feeds you

widowsonwidowson Registered User regular
edited January 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
HARGEISA, Somalia - The U.N. food agency on Tuesday suspended the distribution of aid in southern Somalia because of attacks on its staff, a decision affecting up to 1 million people that highlights the dangers of humanitarian work there.

The lawless Horn of Africa nation is one of the most dangerous places in the world to live, but few can remember a time when aid workers have faced so many attacks.

At least 43 aid workers were killed between January 2008 and fall 2009, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Four humanitarian workers remain in the hands of their captors.

The U.N. decision is the latest setback for Somalia, which has not had an effective central government for two decades and sees near-daily violence in its capital.

'Indirect killing'
In the southwestern Somali town of Jilib, Abdullahi Awnur blamed Islamic militants for interrupting the food aid distribution, saying it was an "indirect killing."

"We have been forced to flee from our houses and depend on food aid and now that it is finished, that means the armed group here does not want us to live," said Awnur, who lives with his eight children in a camp in Jilib — one of the towns where WFP suspended operations.

Further exacerbating the situation is the flight of hundreds of thousands of Mogadishu residents into rural Somalia, where drought has ravaged farms and life-sustaining livestock herds. Aid agencies estimate 3.6 million of the country's 8 million people now need food and other aid.

CARE International and Doctors Without Borders are among the agencies that already have pulled out of southern Somalia because of attacks and kidnappings. The World Food Program said Tuesday it, too, is stopping aid distribution because armed groups also had demanded that aid agencies remove women from their teams.

The agency is moving staff and supplies to northern and central Somalia from six areas in the south that are largely controlled by the al-Shabab Islamist group, said Emilia Casella, a WFP spokeswoman. The U.S. State Department says al-Shabab has links to al-Qaida.

"Up to a million people that have been dependent on food assistance in southern Somalia face a situation that is particularly dire," Casella told reporters in Geneva.

Entire article at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34710512/ns/world_news-africa

For me, this is a sad example of why so much of the third world suffers like it does. As if arid land and lack of productive farming methods/technology wasn't bad enough, you have these STUPID Islamist groups and tribal thugs extorting, bullying, and killing the very people they need to stay alive.

What's really sad is they won't be the ones to really starve when the famine comes; they'll just kill and steal from their own people to stay alive.

So WTF do you do? I doubt anyone in the USA wants to see american corpses drug through the streets again...

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Posts

  • ProtoMan39ProtoMan39 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Honestly, Somalia is no longer a country. It hasn't been for years. It's degenerated into complete and utter anarchy, and is impossible to deal with as a unified organization. Part of the problem is that (in some cases) it's treated as if it's a normal country, just like any other. And those are doomed to fail.

    ProtoMan39 on
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Somalia is a clan based society with all that entails. If you are not part of their clan or a clan allied to them, you are nobody to them. Killing you isn't really a crime unless your clan has got the clout to make it so.

    This attack was probably aimed at disrupting the food supply of a rival clan.

    In other words bussiness as usual for Somalia.

    Kipling217 on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2010
    Most of the developing world isn't anything like Somalia. Place is a disaster zone. And no, an external invasion won't fix it, and frankly expecting the US to invade yet another trouble spot when it can't even cope with the two its taken on strikes me as shortsighted.

    Initiatives like the Mo Ibrahim foundation help provide education and example to leadership in the region, and areas of the continent have improved drastically off their own bat in the last half-century, but it'll take more time. Until then you probably need to remember that this is what the whole planet was like for a long time. Africa isn't special.

    What would help in a lot of problem regions is large resource extraction operations GTFOing, or at least being less cheerfully evil while going about their business.

    The Cat on
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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Somalia is a garbage dump, literaly. Warlords have sold the right to dump garbage there to multinational corporations.

    As for force? How? We can't bomb them back to the stone age, they are there already. Its so bad there that people are trying to get to Yemen instead. And Yemen is one step above Afghanistan in terms of stability.

    Kipling217 on
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  • QliphothQliphoth Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Is the UN guarding the aid workers as they deliver the food? Because really when people are delivering massive amounts of food that is more valuable than Somalian currency its hardly surprising that warlords/gangs are willing to kill the workers and steal the food. So you basically have 2 options, either use UN military force to guard aid workers, which is pretty unlikely as UN military intervention is not easy to come by, or watch millions starve.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    The only thing to do is to contain the situation as much as possible so it doesn't spill over into other areas.

    HamHamJ on
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  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Somalia is a clan based society with all that entails. If you are not part of their clan or a clan allied to them, you are nobody to them. Killing you isn't really a crime unless your clan has got the clout to make it so.

    This attack was probably aimed at disrupting the food supply of a rival clan.

    In other words bussiness as usual for Somalia.

    I don't mean to get too off topic but I think this is the problem with 1st World interaction with much of this part of the world (Middle East, most of Africa, part of Central Asia). They haven't developed nation-states. They exist on a tribal level and self-identify in this way more than at a national or even ethnic way. Often large segments of theses "countries" are not controlled by the central government. Large parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc aren't controlled by the government not even including places with active low level Civil Wars. Its difficult to think of places with no government but Somalia isn't the only place in this state (yuck yuck).

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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Somalia is a dump.

    Somaliland, meanwhile, is relatively okay. That's the northwest part of the place. They are... well, they're not exactly First World, but they're stable-ish. They want to deal with the world; unfortunately, everyone regards them as part of Somalia and thus not worth the hassle.

    What I do is I at least try to salvage Somaliland. Recognize that as a country, separate from Somalia, and deal with them.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    widowson wrote: »
    HARGEISA, Somalia - The U.N. food agency on Tuesday suspended the distribution of aid in southern Somalia because of attacks on its staff, a decision affecting up to 1 million people that highlights the dangers of humanitarian work there.

    The lawless Horn of Africa nation is one of the most dangerous places in the world to live, but few can remember a time when aid workers have faced so many attacks.

    At least 43 aid workers were killed between January 2008 and fall 2009, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Four humanitarian workers remain in the hands of their captors.

    The U.N. decision is the latest setback for Somalia, which has not had an effective central government for two decades and sees near-daily violence in its capital.

    'Indirect killing'
    In the southwestern Somali town of Jilib, Abdullahi Awnur blamed Islamic militants for interrupting the food aid distribution, saying it was an "indirect killing."

    "We have been forced to flee from our houses and depend on food aid and now that it is finished, that means the armed group here does not want us to live," said Awnur, who lives with his eight children in a camp in Jilib — one of the towns where WFP suspended operations.

    Further exacerbating the situation is the flight of hundreds of thousands of Mogadishu residents into rural Somalia, where drought has ravaged farms and life-sustaining livestock herds. Aid agencies estimate 3.6 million of the country's 8 million people now need food and other aid.

    CARE International and Doctors Without Borders are among the agencies that already have pulled out of southern Somalia because of attacks and kidnappings. The World Food Program said Tuesday it, too, is stopping aid distribution because armed groups also had demanded that aid agencies remove women from their teams.

    The agency is moving staff and supplies to northern and central Somalia from six areas in the south that are largely controlled by the al-Shabab Islamist group, said Emilia Casella, a WFP spokeswoman. The U.S. State Department says al-Shabab has links to al-Qaida.

    "Up to a million people that have been dependent on food assistance in southern Somalia face a situation that is particularly dire," Casella told reporters in Geneva.

    Entire article at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34710512/ns/world_news-africa

    For me, this is a sad example of why so much of the third world suffers like it does. As if arid land and lack of productive farming methods/technology wasn't bad enough, you have these STUPID Islamist groups and tribal thugs extorting, bullying, and killing the very people they need to stay alive.

    What's really sad is they won't be the ones to really starve when the famine comes; they'll just kill and steal from their own people to stay alive.

    So WTF do you do? I doubt anyone in the USA wants to see american corpses drug through the streets again...


    Honestly short of sending in a massive mutli-nation peacekeeping( IE kill everyone that moves) force and making sure the children of the area are (re)taught how to think like modern human beings and ignore tribal bullshit you can't do anything . That's not realistic or ethical though.

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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Gosling wrote: »
    Somalia is a dump.

    Somaliland, meanwhile, is relatively okay. That's the northwest part of the place. They are... well, they're not exactly First World, but they're stable-ish. They want to deal with the world; unfortunately, everyone regards them as part of Somalia and thus not worth the hassle.

    What I do is I at least try to salvage Somaliland. Recognize that as a country, separate from Somalia, and deal with them.

    Deal with them as in humanitarian aid handled very carefully, military lockdown, ignore 'till they kill each other, or meet my friend the B-52?

    Khavall on
  • AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Yes, because the problem in the country is their fault as opposed to the years spent resisting colonial powers, eventually falling to them, and existing in a continent rife with the mostly-continent-wide institutional degradation brought on not just by that but also the continued laughable-bordering-on-willful-disregard thing we call international development.

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  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I'm a bit upset so many aide workers died before they said "well, we hit our quota, pull out"

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  • AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    43 is a pretty large amount in such a comparatively short period of time. At some point, notwithstanding aid workers' probably dogged insistence to stay and continue the work they've been doing you've got to assess the security of the people you're employing if you don't have the actual security to provide them.

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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Yes, because the problem in the country is their fault as opposed to the years spent resisting colonial powers, eventually falling to them, and existing in a continent rife with the mostly-continent-wide institutional degradation brought on not just by that but also the continued laughable-bordering-on-willful-disregard thing we call international development.

    So your argument is that it wasn't their fault that they killed aid workers so we should just chalk it up to those crazy Somalians just being themselves again?

    It doesn't matter if they just happen to be a country of crazy people who like killing or if it's because of historical problems and whatnot, it's still a problem when they kill aid workers and we need to find a way to deal with it.

    Khavall on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    43 is a pretty large amount in such a comparatively short period of time. At some point, notwithstanding aid workers' probably dogged insistence to stay and continue the work they've been doing you've got to assess the security of the people you're employing if you don't have the actual security to provide them.

    2 a month

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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Khavall wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Somalia is a dump.

    Somaliland, meanwhile, is relatively okay. That's the northwest part of the place. They are... well, they're not exactly First World, but they're stable-ish. They want to deal with the world; unfortunately, everyone regards them as part of Somalia and thus not worth the hassle.

    What I do is I at least try to salvage Somaliland. Recognize that as a country, separate from Somalia, and deal with them.

    Deal with them as in humanitarian aid handled very carefully, military lockdown, ignore 'till they kill each other, or meet my friend the B-52?

    No, I mean, like treat them as a country that might be worth something.

    Somaliland has actual potential. Somalia is a catastrofuck.

    Gosling on
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Gosling wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Somalia is a dump.

    Somaliland, meanwhile, is relatively okay. That's the northwest part of the place. They are... well, they're not exactly First World, but they're stable-ish. They want to deal with the world; unfortunately, everyone regards them as part of Somalia and thus not worth the hassle.

    What I do is I at least try to salvage Somaliland. Recognize that as a country, separate from Somalia, and deal with them.

    Deal with them as in humanitarian aid handled very carefully, military lockdown, ignore 'till they kill each other, or meet my friend the B-52?

    No, I mean, like treat them as a country that might be worth something.

    Somaliland has actual potential. Somalia is a catastrofuck.

    Oh. Them means Somaliland and deal mean like, deal. I get it now.

    Khavall on
  • AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Khavall wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Yes, because the problem in the country is their fault as opposed to the years spent resisting colonial powers, eventually falling to them, and existing in a continent rife with the mostly-continent-wide institutional degradation brought on not just by that but also the continued laughable-bordering-on-willful-disregard thing we call international development.

    So your argument is that it wasn't their fault that they killed aid workers so we should just chalk it up to those crazy Somalians just being themselves again?

    It doesn't matter if they just happen to be a country of crazy people who like killing or if it's because of historical problems and whatnot, it's still a problem when they kill aid workers and we need to find a way to deal with it.

    My comment was more in response to King Raptor's choice of wording, but yes there is a fundamental difference in how you can effectively approach the situation if it happens to be crazy people as opposed to coming from past historical institutional factors. Dismissing them as functionally identical is what leads people to think direct money transfers to LDCs actually does something.

    I mean, figuring out causation is public policy 101.

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  • corcorigancorcorigan Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Someone will end up invading and sorting it out. It'll never be fixed any other way. After 20 years of lawlessness and civil war, only force of arms will be respected.

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  • PasserbyePasserbye I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    Passerbye on
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    corcorigan wrote: »
    Someone will end up invading and sorting it out. It'll never be fixed any other way. After 20 years of lawlessness and civil war, only force of arms will be respected.

    Who would actually want to take ownership of the somalia problem though?

    I mean I guess if Somalia causes a big enough problem for a world power, but other than that it seems that any country powerful enough to maybe do something about it wouldn't want to take on the risk.

    Somalia is FUCKED. You can't really just send an army there and expect it to get cleaned up.

    Al_wat on
  • ProtoMan39ProtoMan39 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Passerbye wrote: »
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    I don't think the problem has really been to the same extent. You might regions of a country that are that bad, you might have a country that's pretty shitty but not to the same extent as Somalia, or you might have a country that's that bad but not for decades and decades. In a typical African style dictatorship, you have some head honcho (or multiple, either working together or as part of a civil war more organized than Somalia) who has the biggest and most guns. Life that way sucks, but there's some sort of central or regional government overseeing everything. In Somalia, you have essentially just a fuck ton of various groups, many of whom aren't big enough to have any real power, and you end up with a huge amount of guerrilla groups with a huge amount of guerrilla fighters in terrain perfect for guerrilla wars. Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    ProtoMan39 on
  • AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Passerbye wrote: »
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    I don't think the problem has really been to the same extent. You might regions of a country that are that bad, you might have a country that's pretty shitty but not to the same extent as Somalia, or you might have a country that's that bad but not for decades and decades. In a typical African style dictatorship, you have some head honcho (or multiple, either working together or as part of a civil war more organized than Somalia) who has the biggest and most guns. Life that way sucks, but there's some sort of central or regional government overseeing everything. In Somalia, you have essentially just a fuck ton of various groups, many of whom aren't big enough to have any real power, and you end up with a huge amount of guerrilla groups with a huge amount of guerrilla fighters in terrain perfect for guerrilla wars. Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    Well hey, it's not all bad. They could have oil.

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  • ProtoMan39ProtoMan39 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Passerbye wrote: »
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    I don't think the problem has really been to the same extent. You might regions of a country that are that bad, you might have a country that's pretty shitty but not to the same extent as Somalia, or you might have a country that's that bad but not for decades and decades. In a typical African style dictatorship, you have some head honcho (or multiple, either working together or as part of a civil war more organized than Somalia) who has the biggest and most guns. Life that way sucks, but there's some sort of central or regional government overseeing everything. In Somalia, you have essentially just a fuck ton of various groups, many of whom aren't big enough to have any real power, and you end up with a huge amount of guerrilla groups with a huge amount of guerrilla fighters in terrain perfect for guerrilla wars. Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    Well hey, it's not all bad. They could have oil.

    If they had oil, there'd be more impetus for the US to go in and set up a friendly puppet regime. ;-)

    ProtoMan39 on
  • CristoCristo Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Talking about oil, and them actually having it, haven't the Chinese been sending engineers over to start drilling for oil for a while now?

    Or is that Sudan?

    In any case, Somalia and the organisations that partly control it aren't very popular in Denmark right now. Not after Al-Shabaab sent an "operative" over to kill a 75 year old cartoonist and his grandchild.

    Cristo on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    You are wrong sir! Somalia has the definitive up of being a libertarian dream world.

    Gaddez on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pretty sure the Chinese are in Sudan (and other African nations) but not Somalia.

    The problems in the country need to be solved from the bottom-up, not the other way around. The central government is worthless. I'm guessing the individual clans are better organized, and the leaders of the clans need to be brought on board before any progress can be made.

    Malkor on
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  • ProtoMan39ProtoMan39 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Gaddez wrote: »
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    You are wrong sir! Somalia has the definitive up of being a libertarian dream world.

    What? Of course not! As a libertarian, I take offense at that statement.

    We wouldn't have blacks in our dream world! :P

    ProtoMan39 on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Gaddez wrote: »
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    You are wrong sir! Somalia has the definitive up of being a libertarian dream world.

    One day everybody in Somalia woke up and said "Fuck it, i'm going Galt!" and Somalia sticks to it's guns, literally.

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  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Sadly Somalian chaos has regional effects as well, particularly in places like Kenya where rural communities are especially susceptible to Somali cattle raids. Likewise with the piracy problem that has garnered so much international attention over the past year or two. It seems likely that the international community will still have to respond to such issues in spite of a withdrawal of the aid forces.

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  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Haven't seen much mention of the wars going on in Somalia. These contribute hugely to how unstable and messed up the place is.

    The ICU was the last group to take control over Mogadishu and most of the south of the country. They were a Taliban style movement but a bit less extreme, which is quite appealing to a populace that has had zero security or legal system for two decades. The US really doesn't like groups like this though, and got Etheopia to invade and drive out the ICU. Well, they succeeded, but Etheopia pulled out as did many of the AU soldiers.

    The US supports moderates from the former ICU in the "government" (which controls only a small area of Mogadishu) which has instituted a moderate form of sharia law there. Most of the Islamists though, instead of cheering at the introduction of sharia law, instead fought against their former allies because they now considered them US stooges. The groups have since fragmented further and fought each other more than the government, although victories and alliances suggest the government will be getting more pressure pretty soon.

    US troops there would be political suicide, so don't expect that. There are special forces troops that operate there, as well as airstrikes (from drones, presumably), US weapon shipments to the government and all the usual spycraft. In short, the US hasn't exactly been a stabilizing force there for the past few years.

    [Tycho?] on
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  • PasserbyePasserbye I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Passerbye wrote: »
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    I don't think the problem has really been to the same extent. You might regions of a country that are that bad, you might have a country that's pretty shitty but not to the same extent as Somalia, or you might have a country that's that bad but not for decades and decades. In a typical African style dictatorship, you have some head honcho (or multiple, either working together or as part of a civil war more organized than Somalia) who has the biggest and most guns. Life that way sucks, but there's some sort of central or regional government overseeing everything. In Somalia, you have essentially just a fuck ton of various groups, many of whom aren't big enough to have any real power, and you end up with a huge amount of guerrilla groups with a huge amount of guerrilla fighters in terrain perfect for guerrilla wars. Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    IIRC, Somalia's had something of a government until relatively recently - it hasn't been all anarchy all the time for the last 20 years.

    Passerbye on
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Passerbye wrote: »
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Passerbye wrote: »
    Well, what's worked for other African nations which came out of similar problems? Surely other nations or regions have gone through the same thing?

    I don't think the problem has really been to the same extent. You might regions of a country that are that bad, you might have a country that's pretty shitty but not to the same extent as Somalia, or you might have a country that's that bad but not for decades and decades. In a typical African style dictatorship, you have some head honcho (or multiple, either working together or as part of a civil war more organized than Somalia) who has the biggest and most guns. Life that way sucks, but there's some sort of central or regional government overseeing everything. In Somalia, you have essentially just a fuck ton of various groups, many of whom aren't big enough to have any real power, and you end up with a huge amount of guerrilla groups with a huge amount of guerrilla fighters in terrain perfect for guerrilla wars. Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    IIRC, Somalia's had something of a government until relatively recently - it hasn't been all anarchy all the time for the last 20 years.

    Something of a government can stretch pretty far. Its had various organizations that have resided in the capital and called themselves the government. None of these organizations has been able to install basic infrastructure like police, judiciary, taxes, bureaucracy, military etc. None has had control over the country side of the south. None has controlled Mogadishu long enough to start rebuilding the place.

    It has something of a government now; arguably more of a government in the past because this one didn't come to power just by shooting, and it also has foreign relations. Still, it controls only a coastal strip of the capital, and can't enforce security even there.

    [Tycho?] on
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Maybe the US could just guard aid workers? The problem with 1993 was going into a city with a hundred guys with guns balanced on the ends of erections.

    Guarding humanitarian aid workers probably would involve alot less bloodshed

    override367 on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Maybe the US could just guard aid workers? The problem with 1993 was going into a city with a hundred guys with guns balanced on the ends of erections.

    Guarding humanitarian aid workers probably would involve alot less bloodshed

    How bout someone else does it. Maybe someone without a history of having guns and erections. That way everyone wins.

    Malkor on
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  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Declare Somalia a non-state, give any nation with the interest to do so a free hand to annex the territory. Let them sort it out.

    Demiurge on
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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Demiurge wrote: »
    Declare Somalia a non-state, give any nation with the interest to do so a free hand to annex the territory. Let them sort it out.

    Or we can threaten to let have Blackwater have it.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Maybe the US could just guard aid workers? The problem with 1993 was going into a city with a hundred guys with guns balanced on the ends of erections.

    Guarding humanitarian aid workers probably would involve alot less bloodshed

    Any visible US troops in the region would have a massive target printed on them. People would come from all over the region for a chance to attack the hated enemy. I doubt the aid workers would end up being much safer in the end.

    [Tycho?] on
    mvaYcgc.jpg
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Gaddez wrote: »
    ProtoMan39 wrote: »
    Other African nations have their ups and downs; Somalia just has downs.

    You are wrong sir! Somalia has the definitive up of being a libertarian dream world.
    Well, not really. There's a difference between anarchy and libertarianism. The legitimate role of government for libertarians is to protect the rights of the citizenry. A society where marauding militias can murder with impunity is in no way libertarian.

    Somalia is the classic failed state. However, since it has zero strategic and economic value to the rest of the world, other countries have no interest in sending in troops to fix the situation. Only in cases where Somalia starts becoming a problem (such as if a Talibanesque government threatens to come to power, like a few years ago) to the outside world will anyone really want to get involved. It's cheaper, long-term, to occasionally use proxies (like the Ethiopians) and special forces to smack down trouble in Somalia, then to try and fix a country that's been broken throughout most of its history.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Maybe the US could just guard aid workers? The problem with 1993 was going into a city with a hundred guys with guns balanced on the ends of erections.

    Guarding humanitarian aid workers probably would involve alot less bloodshed
    Mission creep in such a scenario is inevitable. Trying to guard aid workers without going after the militias that target them is a waste of time. It's a mission without end.

    People forget that the military operation shown in Black Hawk Down was actually judged a success- the militia leaders they were after were arrested. Good guy casualties were pretty low, all things considered (a long, running battle in an urban setting). Bad guy casualties were pretty brutal- the US military wiped out much of the manpower of several militias in that fight.

    But, it became clear after the mission that Americans had no stomache to see Americans die in some far-off hellhole for no discernable benefit to the US.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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