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A $290,000 speeding ticket?

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Posts

  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    If you're a minor, then the state legally compels you to attend school. Is there nothing at all uncomfortable about them simultaneously both compelling you to attend, and also making it impossible to get there?

    "Since you committed mail fraud, you're no longer allowed to use the mail. Good luck on your taxes, sucker!"

    Not to mention that policies which encourage dropping out of school are terrible from pretty much any standpoint you look at them.

    if you're a minor going to school, they will bus you there. They have to, legally, otherwise how would poor kids who live too far to walk ever get to school?

    I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, as there are schools around here that have no bus system. (Most of them do, but charge parents through the ass to use it.)
    then what the hell do you do before you can drive in those areas?

    ronzo on
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Fines should scale with income to an extent, it'd be much greater deterrant

    The Black Hunter on
  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Fines should scale with income to an extent, it'd be much greater deterrant

    Also, mandatory minimums are fine, because they are a much greater deterrent.

    zeeny on
  • blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I live in Melbourne, the (unofficial, but I often hear it referred to as such) "speed camera capital of the world". I fucking loathe these things, and I have not ever actually been fined by one. My father gets a speed camera fine every 6 months or so, almost always for between 3 and 6 km/h over the limit. I've had a few friends on probationary licenses who have come very close to losing their licenses thanks to the cameras as well. I'm particularly careful on the roads in regards to both coppers and cameras, so I've been able to avoid any fines despite often breaking the limit (as I'm convinced almost every driver on the road does).

    Speed limits are not a stupid thing, there was a time when I'd often make that claim, but it came with so many "buts" attached that I eventually had to realize that I'm in no way opposed to them on principle. Going 70 km /h past a school, during daytime, is irresponsible and dangerous, and the law should reflect that. Going 70 km /h down Dandenong Road at 3am in the morning is neither irresponsible or dangerous, and yet is against the law (and would net you a 250 dollarish fine too). I drive a lot at night, and I am also prone to the odd impromptu "burn the bloke in the riced up skyline to the next corner". All in good fun, and as a pretty good driver, not particularly dangerous.

    One thing I find particularly annoying, and irrelevant from a practical sense in that you'd never be able to use it for selective enforcement, is the fact that a supercar and an '85 Sigma are both considered to be the same thing by the law. An experienced driver in a Porsche or a Ferrari can handle country roads and highways at twice the legal limit without breaking a sweat, or posing any more danger to himself or other road users than an '85 sigma going 10 under the limit. That's just the nature of a well designed car with good safety features.

    I don't have anything particularly enlightening to share as a driver from some of the most heavily policed roads in the world, even with cameras and cops all over the place, it's still possible to drive above the speed limit if you're attentive and alert to what cars could be undercover cop cars and etc. I'm suprised that we haven't seen mentioned so far in this thread the license test itself, and the idea that if we ensure people on the road are actually good drivers we can perhaps actually make the roads a safer place and get rid of some of the more fucked up and intrusive road rules. See Sweden, Holland, Germany.

    blizzard224 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    as a pretty good driver

    Just as an observation, there is absolutely nobody who does not think they are a better than average driver.

    japan on
  • Best AmericaBest America __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2010
    ronzo wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    If you're a minor, then the state legally compels you to attend school. Is there nothing at all uncomfortable about them simultaneously both compelling you to attend, and also making it impossible to get there?

    "Since you committed mail fraud, you're no longer allowed to use the mail. Good luck on your taxes, sucker!"

    Not to mention that policies which encourage dropping out of school are terrible from pretty much any standpoint you look at them.

    if you're a minor going to school, they will bus you there. They have to, legally, otherwise how would poor kids who live too far to walk ever get to school?

    I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, as there are schools around here that have no bus system. (Most of them do, but charge parents through the ass to use it.)
    then what the hell do you do before you can drive in those areas?
    Your parents find a way to accommodate you or you end up walking some miles. I don't know how many it is in ElJeffe's area, but I live in a district where the schools pull from many towns and a huge geographical area, so bus coverage starts about 6 miles out. Undoubtedly, there's some kid who has to walk the whole 6 miles each way each day unless his or her parent can drive them.

    Best America on
    right you got it
  • blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    japan wrote: »
    as a pretty good driver

    Just as an observation, there is absolutely nobody who does not think they are a better than average driver.

    Haha entirely true. I like to think it's quantified a little by my experience taking cars to their physical limits in controlled conditions, but it's pretty important to realize your capacity to fault as a driver, even (especially) for people like me who think of themselves as great drivers. Driving is not my job (though I had planned on it being a while back), and there are many many better drivers than me out there.

    I firmly (really firmly) believe that at least an introductory defensive driving course should be compulsory for every kid getting their Probationary license. Getting behind the wheel of a powerful car is intoxicating (and bloody beautiful) as a 17/18 year old (I'm sure many of us know), and almost everyone is going to push their car to the limit at one stage, no matter how many warnings they get or what the threat of punishment is. I think it's really important that this first time be in the right place, at the right time, that kids know what they're getting into, and know how hard it can be to get out of.

    If this were to happen I can pretty much guarantee that road accidents involving probationary drivers would drop dramatically - a fuck load more than reducing the speed limit by any amount, on any or every road in the state.

    blizzard224 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Is the problem with most drivers that they don't understand the limits of their cars, or that if that's your limiting factor you're already clearly going way too fast in an area with way too little situational awareness.

    electricitylikesme on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    ronzo wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    If you're a minor, then the state legally compels you to attend school. Is there nothing at all uncomfortable about them simultaneously both compelling you to attend, and also making it impossible to get there?

    "Since you committed mail fraud, you're no longer allowed to use the mail. Good luck on your taxes, sucker!"

    Not to mention that policies which encourage dropping out of school are terrible from pretty much any standpoint you look at them.

    if you're a minor going to school, they will bus you there. They have to, legally, otherwise how would poor kids who live too far to walk ever get to school?

    I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, as there are schools around here that have no bus system. (Most of them do, but charge parents through the ass to use it.)
    then what the hell do you do before you can drive in those areas?

    Your parents find a way to accommodate you or you end up walking some miles. I don't know how many it is in ElJeffe's area, but I live in a district where the schools pull from many towns and a huge geographical area, so bus coverage starts about 6 miles out. Undoubtedly, there's some kid who has to walk the whole 6 miles each way each day unless his or her parent can drive them.

    That's absolutely absurd. Even at four miles per hour (which is an unrealistic pace for a child) you're talking about an hour and a half walk each way. I'm surprised that's even legal, what with all the laws requiring access to education and all.

    Now, I did live in an area where walks of about a mile to a bus stop weren't uncommon. This allows for larger consolidated stops, saving time (and thus bus driver hours). I think the radius of "no coverage at all" was something like two miles. And that was only for high school.

    mcdermott on
  • blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Is the problem with most drivers that they don't understand the limits of their cars, or that if that's your limiting factor you're already clearly going way too fast in an area with way too little situational awareness.

    Remember that many first cars are absolute shitboxes, which may not be particularly safe going 80 down the highway (reminding me of my brothers first car, the '85 Mitsubishi Sigma that I referenced before, once you hit 90 on the freeway it was a struggle to keep the damn thing in a straight line.) But besides that, defensive driving courses teach the driver to respect the differences in driving situations that you'll have to face on the road. One excersise I remember on my first course (I was taking it in my '94 Saab 900, a very decent car for a first) was going around cones on a wet road. With the instructor telling me to go through the cones faster and faster until I eventually spin out and felt just how scary it is to be completely out of control of your vehicle (and the fact that this can happen to you going no faster than 35 km / h) - it's a big lesson in respecting your level of control.

    I know it's easy to write this stuff off and say that "good" drivers know not to hit that freeway offramp with the big curve at more than 45 after it just started raining, but I think it doesn't stick a lot of the time until you do it yourself. If you just look at the number of crashes involving probationary drivers compared to drivers later on their years, you can see that a certain level of inadequate driving ability must be involved somewhere.

    (This graph only features casualty causing crashes, but the total crashes graph has a similar, if less pronounced, curve)
    chart_crashprofile_passrestrict2.jpg

    Essentially what I'm trying to argue is that a lot (not all, obviously, but probably almost all) P platers will push their car way beyond safe limits in their first year - because it's exhilarating and they just had a shit day, or their girlfriend broke up with them, or their mates are egging them on, and when they do, it is really, really important that they have a semblance of experience doing this stuff.

    EDIT: Fixed the last paragraph for bad wording.

    blizzard224 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • LeCausticLeCaustic Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Is the problem with most drivers that they don't understand the limits of their cars, or that if that's your limiting factor you're already clearly going way too fast in an area with way too little situational awareness.

    Remember that many first cars are absolute shitboxes, which may not be particularly safe going 80 down the highway (reminding me of my brothers first car, the '85 Mitsubishi Sigma that I referenced before, once you hit 90 on the freeway it was a struggle to keep the damn thing in a straight line.) But besides that, defensive driving courses teach the driver to respect the differences in driving situations that you'll have to face on the road. One excersise I remember on my first course (I was taking it in my '94 Saab 900, a very decent car for a first) was going around cones on a wet road. With the instructor telling me to go through the cones faster and faster until I eventually spin out and felt just how scary it is to be completely out of control of your vehicle (and the fact that this can happen to you going no faster than 35 km / h) - it's a big lesson in respecting your level of control.

    I know it's easy to write this stuff off and say that "good" drivers know not to hit that freeway offramp with the big curve at more than 45 after it just started raining, but I think it doesn't stick a lot of the time until you do it yourself. If you just look at the number of crashes involving probationary drivers compared to drivers later on their years, you can see that a certain level of inadequate driving ability must be involved somewhere.

    (This graph only features casualty causing crashes, but the total crashes graph has a similar, if less pronounced, curve)
    chart_crashprofile_passrestrict2.jpg

    Essentially what I'm trying to argue is that a lot (not all, obviously, but probably almost all) P platers will push their car way beyond safe limits in their first year - because it's exhilarating and they just had a shit day, or their girlfriend broke up with them, or their mates are egging them on, and when they do, it is really, really important that they have a semblance of experience doing this stuff.

    EDIT: Fixed the last paragraph for bad wording.


    I actually agree and wish I had your probationary driving course. Mine was just driving down a road, making a turn and then parallel parking. I mean, how the fuck does that mean I'm certified to drive? I wish I could actually experience some of the things that can happen. I think A LOT of things would change if people actually experienced things firsthand in a controlled environment. Naturally, I'm not talking about seeing what it's like to be t-boned or backended by a semi.

    LeCaustic on
    Your sig is too tall. -Thanatos
    kaustikos.png
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Essentially what I'm trying to argue is that a lot (not all, obviously, but probably almost all) P platers will push their car way beyond safe limits in their first year - because it's exhilarating and they just had a shit day, or their girlfriend broke up with them, or their mates are egging them on, and when they do, it is really, really important that they have a semblance of experience doing this stuff.

    EDIT: Fixed the last paragraph for bad wording.

    My point is that they shouldn't be doing this, and you seem to have split your case between "well the car can't handle normal freeway speeds" and "they will push it beyond it's limit".

    The limitations of a car only really matter if it's unbelievably terrible, since driving on regular modes it absolutely doesn't matter how fast you can take a corner because that's not really the problem - any corner likely to challenge the grip, brakes and steering of a road car you are already taking far too fast because the biggest danger is that you can't see around corners as to what's coming up. Situational awareness.

    When we talk about driving courses, the only goal of them really is to show that an out-of-control car is really out-of-control and how reckless driving grossly contributes to that.

    electricitylikesme on
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I think slamming someone's wallet is an excellent deterant

    sometimes a relevant punishment isn't feasible

    The Black Hunter on
  • blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Essentially what I'm trying to argue is that a lot (not all, obviously, but probably almost all) P platers will push their car way beyond safe limits in their first year - because it's exhilarating and they just had a shit day, or their girlfriend broke up with them, or their mates are egging them on, and when they do, it is really, really important that they have a semblance of experience doing this stuff.

    EDIT: Fixed the last paragraph for bad wording.

    My point is that they shouldn't be doing this, and you seem to have split your case between "well the car can't handle normal freeway speeds" and "they will push it beyond it's limit".

    The limitations of a car only really matter if it's unbelievably terrible, since driving on regular modes it absolutely doesn't matter how fast you can take a corner because that's not really the problem - any corner likely to challenge the grip, brakes and steering of a road car you are already taking far too fast because the biggest danger is that you can't see around corners as to what's coming up. Situational awareness.

    When we talk about driving courses, the only goal of them really is to show that an out-of-control car is really out-of-control and how reckless driving grossly contributes to that.

    I see where you're coming from, but I think it's silly to just say "well they shouldn't be driving beyond the limits of their car because they don't have to" when you just have to look into statistics to see that kids will anyway, regardless of what they're told. Unless the plan is to make them take some sort of imaginary maturity test I'd rather have kids who know what their cars can do in extreme situations than those who don't.

    The other thing these sort of courses keep is just a more genuine respect for the piece of machinery that they're handling. The way things are now, we basically check if you can drive in a straight line, park, and navigate light traffic, and let them loose on the road. Regardless of whether or not people in this situation should drive fast at any time, statistics and human nature show that they will. Having a respect for the limits of your machine is only a good thing.

    blizzard224 on
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