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[startrek^2] Khan's second coming of the revenge... of khan.
Captain Vash
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So rumors been flying' all around about this here fancy startrek movie, and what kinda sequel might be following it up.
This page from IMDB states both that the Khan script idea has been scrapped, and that the borg are the most likely enemy for new startrek... however the very same page states that the writers were considering using a story line where startrek teams up with xmen... so yeah.. probably all bullshit.
I for one would love to see the borg done some justice. get rid of this shitty "borg queen" and turn them back into the monotonous faceless one-who-is-many zombie army that was much more intimidating than any borg queen.
Or maybe they could just steal the plot to insurrection, because we all remember how awesome that one was! right guys?
email me if you wanna pizza roll.
This page from IMDB states both that the Khan script idea has been scrapped, and that the borg are the most likely enemy for new startrek... however the very same page states that the writers were considering using a story line where startrek teams up with xmen... so yeah.. probably all bullshit.
I for one would love to see the borg done some justice. get rid of this shitty "borg queen" and turn them back into the monotonous faceless one-who-is-many zombie army that was much more intimidating than any borg queen.
Or maybe they could just steal the plot to insurrection, because we all remember how awesome that one was! right guys?
email me if you wanna pizza roll.
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Fair enough.
My other idea was klingons, the federation is still at odds with them right? perhaps they take vulcan's destruction as an ideal time to strike at the federation?
Plus, eugenics are pretty sweet enemies. So long as they make them along the lines of the Enterprise ones, and not the 80s music video extras of TOS.
Well, Future Spock is running around, and depending on how big a shit he gives about maintaining something even vaguely resembling the temporal order, he might just give Starfleet a heads up on the situations to come. It'd be a very hard position to be in; this isn't your correct timeline (or perhaps merely be an alternate dimensional offshoot?) so while there's very much the potential for doing great harm by trying to help, we already know that the Borg are responsible for the death or assimilation of billions.
Improvements in weaponry and defenses could lead to some in Starfleet pondering pre-emptive action (which really would render a lot of TNG, DS9 and Voyager moot).
Simply, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" could go a long way under such a script. For all his efforts merely to warn, prepare and build contingencies for coming disasters, it might just take one person in power with a bit too much ego and all hell breaks lose.
I don't see why not. They could always have Spock rename himself "The Phoenix" for the next film. Again.
That was fan-spec, so far as I know. Was never in the script.
I do know that there was a draft circulating before the strike happened in which Chekov died. So I don't think they're against killing off crewmembers. Hell, there's no VULCAN anymore in this universe, and they killed Spock's mom onscreen. Granted, she's not a main, but I don't see them pulling the punch if a main character dying enhances the story they've chosen to tell.
And actually, to say Star Trek isn't willing to do it is weird considering The Wrath of Khan killed Spock. Sure, they resurrected him, but only after the movie was successful - they weren't sure that would have happened, and were fine with the idea of Spock staying dead at the time of filming.
Anyway, a Khan storyline definitely doesn't make the most sense, unless you're sensibly trying to undo the entire idea of the reboot by chaining yourself right back to the old continuity.
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Like a thousand of them, one after another in a brutal manner.
Or kill Sulu.
Well, there are varying degrees of jeopardy.
Like, when I watch anything by Joss Whedon, I expect that other than perhaps the title character, none of them are guaranteed to make it out alive, and there's a non-zero chance they'll go down too (though probably come back in some fashion).
With Star Trek, I just accept that everything will probably be alright at the end, but the intriguing part is how they get there. What clever ruse, awesome moment or flash of insight will win the day, even if it's inevitable, the quesiton of "how" can be, to me, just as much fun as the question of "if" in some other media.
Which, as noted in the Star Trek thread, is part of what drives me up the wall with Voyager. They try to have members killed, maimed, wounded, or other horrors happen with regular frequency (from what I've seen, read and heard from others), but by the end of the episode (or at latest, the start of the next one) everything's back to the beginning, so the big deaths, injuries or changes were all just an illusion within fiction (already an illusion). It's about as bullshit as stories with big moments that twist around and "it was all a dream".
As Spock has stated, he has no ego to bruise. I don't see Spock being angry or vengeful. Especially not Nimoy's Spock.
Heh, I remember that one episode (might have been a two-parter) where some villain of the week rode around in a reality-erasing ship and erased planets from history. The Voyager takes a thorough beating, some people got taken out (might have gotten killed, can't remember). Ends with Voyager ramming the ship thus destroying both ships... and undoing the erasing done. All back to normal for next week's episode!
not the new one apparently. Just say something in the line of "Hey, I hear that you lost something big and round. Yo' moma!" and he just goes nuts.
I hate that episode because it's what Voyager was.
I do hope it's something with Klingons and Romulans, something to flesh out the 23rd century universe some more, and the power struggles.
And yeah, the 'back to normal' at the end of episodes bugged me, but I'm pretty sure they still used different groups of writers on voyager for the different episodes, so I don't think they had much of a choice.
Can you name me a Star Trek movie villain where you actually felt like one of the main characters might perish at their hands?
Look at Joker in TDK, or Anton Chigur in No Country. They are compelling because they are unpredictable, and while they are on screen you're afraid the rules of cinema/storytelling might be broken.
Established villians would be boring. Endorians taking advantage of the fall of their Vulcan rival would be much more interesting, especially if coupled with greater fracturing among the Federation planets. Let's remember that Khan was an effective leader, so it might be cool seeing him placed above Kirk on the Enterprise, either as a new captain or an admiral using the Enterprise as his flagship (to keep an eye on Kirk).
Going with the Klingons would be a nice idea. The Klingons would strike at the Federation if they saw a weakness and with Vulcan destroyed....
As I said, I do expect all of the cast to make it to the final credits. What I find engrossing/entertaining is how they get out of peril, and hope that it's done in an immersive enough fashion that it keeps me suspending my disbelief, even though logically I know that Kirk/Spock (exception being noted)/Uhura/etc will likely be there and fine by the end.
But I don't think that for something to be entertaining that there's always got to be a credible threat of loss of life to a main character for things to get shaken up.
Hell, they all made it to the end of the last movie, but Vulcan sure didn't. Having avoided spoilers as best I could, I didn't think they'd actually wipe it out in the last movie. While that didn't quite give me the same fear for the main cast as, say, Book and Wash biting it, I did feel that there was a plausible enough threat to remain engaged in the movie, rather than just waving it off and telling someone to wake me in 60 minutes when everything was resolved.
Also, it was an introductory film for the reboot. If there was going to be jeopardy to the characters, I'd put it in the 2nd or later movie. Why spend valuable screen time re-introducing characters if you're going to kill them off 45 minutes later, other than because it'd be unexpected, if in a cheap fashion.
The Klingons aren't doing much better.
You mean like:
Well, Klingons also lost a whole bunch of ships, so Romulans could grow a pair and actually attack for once.
Then you can do a whole Klingons and Kirk get drunk together and beat the shit out of some Romulans.
To be entertaining, you're right. I agree with you on that. To have a credible villain on the other hand...I suppose it's just a matter of taste.
For me, a good villain (or opposing force) is something of a significant challenge. When you're talking about a movie or story where people run around with guns, or phasers, then the element of danger is there, so why neuter it? If the threat is real for the villain, I think the threat should be even more evident for the hero. What makes the hero's journy compelling is overcoming the obstacles. Why make obstacles that are easy? It's one of many things I think Trek has struggled with. I think Khan has been the only truly compelling villain because he's stronger than Kirk, smarter than Kirk, and did genuine damage not only to the ship, but to Spock. Now, of course the studio nerfed it by bringing Spock back, but as a standalone movie, Khan is the best villain Trek has had. Why? Because he was a significant threat, and he proved it.
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a few are NSFW, including the most recent one. I'm not sure if it updates anymore either...
Exactly.
You can create the feeling of danger by building up a secondary character across multiple episodes or movies that the fans and main characters care about and then killing him or her off. Buffy did this pretty well with Tara.
Also, the Best of Both Worlds cliffhanger in TNG season 3 worked because they'd previously established that the cast list was not set in stone by killing off Yar in Season 1 and replacing Crusher go in Season 2. There was a very real possibility that Picard was leaving the show and not coming back. (And this was pre-Internet, so the only inside info available was from Starlog and fanzines.)
I agree that they need to take more risks now, though.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
BTW, I never felt like there was any risk of The Joker killing off anybody from DC canon. It was pretty damn obvious that Maggie Gyllenhaal was gonna die because she was the only relevant character created wholly for the movies. I never considered for a moment that anybody else was at any risk, and I still don't really believe that Two-Face is dead.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Why have I never heard of this comic before? It's great!
Man, I'd never even considered the Holodecks obvious use for practical joke based mind-fuckery on that level. That's awesome!
If J.J. directs, I'll see it.
If J.J. directs, and O/K write, I'll see it.
If J.J. does not direct, and O/K write, I will not touch it with 10' inanimate carbon rod.
The other thing to remember is that Trek is very much in a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation. There is pretty sizeable contingent of Trek fans who apparently feel betrayed if their Get-Along-Gang of white knights doesn't traipse across the universe in their good ship Lollipop fixing a new planet's problems (and getting the captain hooked up with some new alien tail) every week. I don't really get why - if you want to watch the same damn thing every week, you can just buy TOS on DVD.
DS9 had some unpredictability. In one episode, the bad guys took over the station. In another, Sisko forged evidence to start war. In yet another, Sisko bombed a colony with biological weapons to apprehend a Maquis defector. And because DS9 had continuity, they couldn't just press a reset button at the end of every episode to make everything okay again like in Voyager.
But of course DS9 wasn't "really Star Trek" according to certain fans.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Not entirely true. According to one of the novels, the Doomsday Machine that they encountered in the original series was actually created to combat the Borg.
Man, techno-zombies are way scarier and much more badass than bugs.
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I'd be ok with a re-imagined borg.
You take an insectoid race of intelligent beings combine them with hive mind and ideals of the borg we know... think about how frightening that could be.
I'm envisioning that when they send out their initial hail, we get a insect face that is a supposition of many insect faces that move just ever so slightly out of synch with one another, and that their voice sounds as though it is the collective buzzing of 1000s of insects somehow forming words.
all of this highlighted in the classic black and greens.