Well... I'd agree. Football wise those conferences don't really demand respect. I'd throw Big 10 in there because of Mich and OSU and Penn St
aaaaaaaaaaand Ioooowaaa!!!
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Ok, so it is a bit of a cumbersome thing to call one job or another job "the unquestioned best".
To me, the Top Tier of College Football Jobs would include Southern Cal, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, LSU, Florida, Florida State, and Ohio State. All of these jobs have all of the following:
- An expansive booster base eager and willing to spend a lot of money
- Tradition / Pedigree that produces a "cultural cache" within its recruiting footprint
- Located in a talent producing state within a talent producing region
There are some programs, like Miami, that have the latter two but are severely lacking in the Money department. There are others, like Tennessee, that are located in a talent producing region but not talent producing state. As College Football becomes more and more diluted, the inherent advantages in not having to go Out of State for the majority of your players will become more drastic.
Texas, California, and Florida. Although an argument can be made for all three and admittedly trying to differentiate between them is splitting hairs, for me Florida stands on top, Texas is second, and California third. Florida is so deep that it can sustain two top 5 teams indefinitely, the majority of the Big East, Big 10 teams like Iowa, and still provide elite talent to every SEC and ACC program. Texas and California do this similarly for their region's conferences and lower teams, but not to the degree that Florida does it.
I call Texas the best job in the country because it has the most money and the most "cultural cache" within its state of the top tier teams that are located in talent producing states within talent producing regions. Nearly every kid in Texas begs for a Texas offer. And if they don't, there's a big chance that their HS coach will make them. Only parts of Dallas aren't glowing with a burnt orange hue (they're split 50/50 with OU).
Southern California doesn't even own Southern California. There are more than a couple powerhouse HS programs - most notably Crenshaw High - that are very pro UCLA. But because Carroll was such a stunning recruiter and because they were winning at such a clip, they were able to go OOS to fill in the gaps. Within the span of modern college football, USC struggled pretty badly before Carroll. This isn't to say that USC isn't a top tier job, just that it doesn't even up with Texas in terms of the cultural cache that leads to dominating a talent rich state.
Texas also separates itself from Florida and Florida State because of the unique Big Three dynamic in Florida. Neither of the three programs can separate themselves enough to break free of the pack. Sure, there are periods where one is on top, but as soon as the other two get their bearings they're right back in it. Luckily for them, though, Florida has so much talent that it doesn't matter if it gets split up into thirds - that's still good enough to win an MNC.
However, the Big 3 will probably lose Miami soon if they can't pick it up financially. Back in the 80s or even as recently the 2000-2002 period, College Football wasn't as dependent on money as it is now. So, Miami's financial dearth didn't come into play. Now, it's not uncommon for a 5 star recruit to get as much as 50k to sign with a school. Miami doesn't have the dough to produce the facilities, pay the big time players, or do any of the other auxiliary yet essential things to compete in the modern day.
Yeah, no. Any list of the top jobs that doesn't include Michigan and Notre Dame (with competent management, which they haven't had since Holtz left, it's still a power) is insane. The resources those two schools have is incredible. So is PSU, and they have a more natural recruiting base, actually.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Resources?
The players are the resources. Neither Notre Dame nor Michigan reside in a state that can support them. They won big back in the day when there were only 5 or 6 programs in the country at their level, but now as things are getting flatter they haven't won.
And Notre Dame is additionally excluded because of its self-imposed academic constraints. IF they drop those, maybe we can talk. Until they don't, they won't be able to recruit any talent at DL or LB and will consequently lose 6 games a year because they cant play defense.
Also, just because a team isn't in that Top tier doesn't mean they can't win championships. The tier below, which would include like a Penn State, is still good enough with some luck. But to suppose that Penn State could contend with any of those teams above it were they properly managed is pretty wrong.
Wow. For one thing, by your own standard Oklahoma shouldn't be a top tier job as Oklahoma doesn't produce enough talent to sustain a top tier program. However, obviously, they recruit Texas, which does. Michigan recruits Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Texas pretty damn well. Some schools recruit nationally, especially ones with the most wins all time and a gigantic fucking stadium.
Notre Dame also recruits nationally and has the third largest city in the country as their recruiting base. They've just had shit coaches for 15 years. And you'll note they got one of the top LB recruits in the nation last year, which apparently they can't get because all DL and LB are stupid and can't get into Notre Dame.
1) Michigan has a national championship in the last 15 years.
2) Michigan contended for two others in the last 7 (2003 #4 BCS, 2006 #3). Before the last two years they were among the ten most consistent programs in the country.
3) You hilariously include Florida State, which has done far less than Michigan over the last decade.
You are a silly, silly goose.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
Wow. For one thing, by your own standard Oklahoma shouldn't be a top tier job as Oklahoma doesn't produce enough talent to sustain a top tier program. However, obviously, they recruit Texas, which does. Michigan recruits Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Texas pretty damn well. Some schools recruit nationally, especially ones with the most wins all time and a gigantic fucking stadium.
Notre Dame also recruits nationally and has the third largest city in the country as their recruiting base. They've just had shit coaches for 15 years. And you'll note they got one of the top LB recruits in the nation last year, which apparently they can't get because all DL and LB are stupid and can't get into Notre Dame.
1) Michigan has a national championship in the last 15 years.
2) Michigan contended for two others in the last 7 (2003 #4 BCS, 2006 #3). Before the last two years they were among the ten most consistent programs in the country.
3) You hilariously include Florida State, which has done far less than Michigan over the last decade.
You are a silly, silly goose.
To say Florida State's issues are anything more than coaching related for the last decade shows that you don't follow much College Football beyond your own team.
Notre Dame has Chicago, yes, but Chicago doesn't produce Football talent at a clip anywhere near rural Georgia, for example. Does New York? Does any Northern Metropolis? No.
Also, don't cite the Big 10's relative rankings that are created by playing either regional D1-aa teams or other big 10 teams, fattened up by the Northern Media for this discussion (2003 #4 BCS, 2006 #3). Need I remind you what has happened to the Big 10 every single silly time they've gone out of their conference in a big game, except most recently against Georgia Tech (a team that is way too academically plagued to ever contend realistically)?
#3, at two separate occasions #2 in the BCS Penn State plays an unranked Florida State in the Orange bowl and needed Three overtimes and a missed field goal to win. And that was the most respectable performance. And before you bring it up, Michigan 2007 versus Florida featured a Michigan team with 10 seniors on Offense against a Florida defense with 7 freshmen and 3 sophomores, including 3 freshmen defensive backs against an NFL Quarterback. And still, Michigan almost lost.
For every rule an exception, Oklahoma. One, the state of Oklahoma produces more talent on average than the City of Chicago. Over the last 10 years, The state of Oklahoma has had more 4 star or 5 star players than Chicago every single year. So it's not like they're as bare as Notre Dame in that respect. Oklahoma, of all the states that aren't considered talent rich, is probably the richest with talent. Virginia would come second, Pennsylvania third. Also, Oklahoma makes it up with a very good showing in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, owning Nevada (underrated), sharing Arizona with Southern Cal, and raiding any other Mountain/Midwest fringe state. No other team below that can make that claim, except maybe Tennessee, and not to that degree.
Have a look at Notre Dame's utterly deceiving recruiting rankings the last 5 years. Where is their talent? Prep school players. It's easy to find a 5 star QB that can qualify for ND's academic constraints. Very easy, in fact, since QBs are often groomed in these prep schools. So, too, can you find some RBs and WRs. And an OL, like Brent Benedict at Jacksonville's prep school or Brandon Linder at Saint Thomas Aquinas.
But Defensive Linemen and Linebackers are a whole 'nother story, and having shit in this department is more of the reason ND has squandered for 15 years than coaching. Championship teams have ~17 talented DL and ~12 talented LBs on average. Alabama recently had 27 last year. Of those, probably 20 wouldn't have qualified for ND under their self imposed restrictions. This is the problem with ND. DL and LBs are dumb, usually. And they're not letting them in.
That's why Meyer didn't go to ND in the first place. He wanted 10 academic exceptions a year, like they gave Lou Holtz. ND brass said no, said they could win without it. Welp, it didn't work out for Bob Davie, Ty Willingham, or Charlie Weiss, all of whom weren't given the academic help that Holtz demanded before he took the job.
In other words, Florida State has the same issue Notre Dame does! But you include one and not the other because you're a silly goose homer.
You're ignoring the fact that schools recruit nationally and outside OSU against the SEC and Michigan against USC, the Big Ten does fine. They have a winning record in the Capital One Bowl all time, for example. Against the SEC runner up or #2, depending how many BCS bids the SEC gets. Same in the Outback. You'll also note that OSU beat Texas in 2006, narrowly lost to the Vince Young death squad the year before (which, if we'll recall, Michigan was an inch from beating the year before).
Also, that Michigan team that beat Florida didn't have 10 seniors on offense. Manningham and Arrington were both juniors Justin Boren was the starting guard, not a senior, right guard was a revolving door both of whom left the team the next spring (not seniors!), RT was Steven Schilling, who's still the starting LG (not a senior!), Carson Butler started at TE, he got thrown off the team for being a jackass (not a senior!).
The seniors: Chad Henne, Jake Long, Mike Hart, Adam Kraus. But yes, you clearly follow college football nationally! That was also Lloyd Carr's second worst team and they beat the 9-3 third place team in the dreaded SEC. Featuring the Heisman winner/Jesus against a terrible defense.
I also find it amusing that you say the Big Ten feasts on 1-AA teams while including ... any teams other than USC.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Admittedly I guessed the classes of Michigan's players that year. But I didn't guess Florida's. An NFL QB against 3 freshmen and a sophomore defensive backfield, two freshmen defensive ends, and a three sophomores at linebacker. But yeah, that's a good litmus test.
Florida State and Notre Dame's problems aren't the same at all. Notre Dame's problems are an inability to recruit defensive front seven depth, a necessity to recruit nationally for every recruit (which limits them), and self imposed academic constraints.
Florida State's problems the last 10 years were strictly coaching. They don't have any academic hindrances, they don't have a problem recruiting front seven depth, and they reside in the top talent producing region in the country. As soon as they rid themselves of Jeff Bowden on offense, FSU's Offensive ranking went from the low 90s to the top 20 in three years. If FSU still struggles next year and in 2011, I'll bump this thread and give you credit. But 25 years of evidence points that won't happen.
But, Oh, Chicago, because it's like dense or some shit. The same Chicago that produces less talent than sparsely populated Southern Georgia every year.
But then how did that Florida team go 9-3 against the dreaded SEC and Florida State if they were so awful. They still finished third in the conference! You can't have it both ways! The third place Big Ten team beat the third place SEC team in a de facto home game. And that third place Big Ten team lost to friggin App State and was destroyed at home by Oregon (blessedly, the only Michigan game I've missed in the last 16 years, though I was there the week before). We were terrible that year! I expected to lose by 20, at least. And yet, victory.
Odd, considering the vast superiority of the SEC to the stogy old Big Ten. And hey look, PSU beat LSU this year... if I go back we'll find some Wisconsin wins, too.
Again: goose of a silly nature.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Sorry for pissing you off because I didn't include your team in the top tier. For what it's worth, it's firmly in the tier just below it, where I still believe you can contend for championships every year... just not as easily as teams in the tier above it. They need to work harder, spend more, etc.
Michigan, Notre Dame, Tennessee, Penn State, Auburn, Georgia (because it doesn't control its borders), Virginia Tech, Miami would be its company.
And by not including Nebraska, I illustrate my belief that the flattening of college football has drastically changed the landscape. Where before Nebraska could walk into any living room in the country, like Michigan, regardless of geography, now it can't. There are too many options, diluting the gravitas that these "OOS" programs once wielded.
I'm mad because you're wrong, dammit. And as xkcd says, we know what that means.
Michigan can win 8 games in two years and still pull a boundary of the top ten depending how the next two weeks go recruiting class. Because they have a national recruiting base, which is the thing you're ignoring because it fits your narrative.
An example: three years ago, there were two highly regarded WR/CBs. One was from Michigan, the other from Southern California. They had the same final two schools, Michigan and USC. The kid from Southern California was Donovan Warren, the kid from Michigan was Ronald Johnson. Michigan's got quite a few players the last few years out of Pahokee, Florida. That offense with those five NFL players? Jake Long was the only one from Michigan (Manningham: Ohio, Henne: Pennsylvania, Arrington: Iowa, Hart: New York). Plenty of Texans on the roster. And even if we ignore that, Michigan has the exact same talent producing region that Ohio State does! Michigan gets a ton of Ohio kids every year. So let's judge by your criteria:
Expansive booster base willing to spend... check (they're only spending like 450 million bucks on various renovations at the moment...). Tradition/pedigree... obviously. Talent producing region: yup, unless OSU is also not, but we've included them, so... hmmm. Interesting. And like all the major programs, it's national recruiting, which you have thus far failed to acknowledge. That's the thing about having a ton of resources (aka money). Notre Dame is the same, as is Penn State (and they have a richer recruiting base, because they're the closest major power to the northeast), not to mention Pennsylvania's rich football tradition.
Basically, you're ignoring reality to fit your own wishes. Like the idea that FSU will be back on top real soon, it was just Bowden's crappy management that killed them. But it's really only players that matter, and FSU has great players.
Also funny: Nebraska finishing in the top 15 without an offense because... apparently you can't get talent there. Especially not talent from Portland, Oregon, for example.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
FSU didnt have great players the last 10 years. Half of the "coaching problem" is the coaches' ability to evaluate, recruit, and develop - all of which Florida State's former coaches under Bowden couldn't do.
I'm speaking more to the potential to get good players and the ease that FSU can do so as opposed to Michigan, because of their location.
Michigan's only problem location wise in getting good players is that it's fucking cold. But we don't want any of those pansies anyway.
The best way to evaluate this is: What jobs would no coach ever, ever leave for another college job?
And the answer to that question is:
USC, Florida, Texas, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Alabama
We do not know the answer for:
Penn State, Florida State
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
You can't include Florida and not include Florida State. Before 2003, if you held the same standard, you would have said Florida State and not Florida. FSU had owned Florida for nearly 10 years (7-3-1 record, never losing at home) during that stretch.
Just because Florida has had a good four years while FSU and Miami have had down times does not separate it from FSU or Miami. Florida doesn't have any real advantage over FSU aside from coaching (and hopefully that issue has been resolved.) Florida fans will say this too, there's a reason it's called The Big Three.
We have no idea! Bowden has been there forever. I suspect you're right, but they've been on a downward trend. If Jimbo restores FSU and Kiffykins fails miserably and asks Jimbo to take over, throwing him the money they normally throw at RBs at him, is he tempted? I think he thinks about it.
Flip the situation and it's obviously not true. So until we know, we can't say.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Man, Jimbo at USC would be as drastic a culture shock for the USC alumni as Kiffin was to the SEC.
That rarely happens. UF's always had a "northerner" over "sec good ole boy" tinge to its athletic department, so Meyer wasn't a culture shock there.
I guess Saban is the best counterexample to that, though. Devoid of any southern drawl or charm and to go into LSU and Bama. But he did surround himself with homegrown Southern assistants like Muschamp, Kirby Smart, Derek Dooley, Lance Thompson, Karl Dunbar, Jimbo Fisher, etc.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Speaking of which, that LSU staff under Saban definitely has to be considered one of the greatest of all time:
- Will Muschamp, Texas DC and future Texas HC
- Derek Dooley, Tennessee HC
- Jimbo Fisher, FSU HC
- James Coley, FSU OC
- Kirby Smart, Alabama DC
- Karl Dunbar, soon to be NFL DC (after this year I think he gets it)
He also picked Bobby Williams, so let's not go too overboard.
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Tallaclasseeyou ever seen a lion limber up before it takes down a gazelleRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
For Michigan, whaddya see happening next year at QB? Is Gardner going to pose a serious challenge? Is Shoelace gonna get moved to WR? Is Tate gonna hold on to the job, and if he doesn't, is he destined to transfer the second he loses the job?
For Michigan, whaddya see happening next year at QB? Is Gardner going to pose a serious challenge? Is Shoelace gonna get moved to WR? Is Tate gonna hold on to the job, and if he doesn't, is he destined to transfer the second he loses the job?
Gardner is pretty damn good.
Forcier's the starter, Gardner will redshirt unless Forcier gets injured and he has to miss time or he absolutely blows people away in spring practice. Denard is the nominal backup/change of pace (hopefully with a full year he can be OK in the passing game). God knows what they do with Robinson in 2011 though.
Forcier destroyed his (throwing) shoulder and kept playing last year, thus the huge drop off after Indiana.
enlightenedbum on
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There was one returning starter from the year before from that Florida defense, and the Florida defense didn't really improve during the year. Michigan had a bunch of returning starters and the ones that weren't starters were mostly juniors and seniors. That was basically our entire season. It was the same thing with LSU. Watching a freshmen Joe Haden try and cover Manningham...ugh. Luckily, we haven't had to play a shoot out with anybody since that game. Over that off season we got our shit together.
Also, Florida finished 3rd in the SEC East that year. Not 3rd in the SEC. Georgia and Tennessee both finished above Florida. We were like 5th in the SEC.
Miami's problem is that it remains a college football team in a city that's not really a college football city. If you've seen a Miami football game you'll probably notice so many empty seats. They have a bunch of big boosters, and they do have a good amount of money, so I don't think money is the problem. I just don't think they can keep interest when they lose from recruits or even the players. It was interesting this year to watch Miami get through the toughest first few games of their schedule and then proceed to collapse. It's that mythical "swagger" shit. If Miami isn't kicking ass, that stuff is gone. Their team doesn't appear well disciplined enough to come back from when they aren't playing well.
Yeah I think UM has more fans in Palm Beach County than in Dade. No one in Miami really gives a shit about what the Hurricanes do. A lot of it stems from the fact that it's a private university with a relatively small alumni base and pretty decent academic standards if you aren't 6'3 180lbs and run a 4.4. A major issue with UM is that most kids in Florida can't even consider them an option to go to school.
Bright Futures (which is the Sunshine States subsidized tuition program) only covers 50% of your costs at a private institution, meaning a Florida kid can go to UF or FSU for free, or rack up a ton of bills going to UM. It will always play third wheel in Florida with the way everything is set up. Hell, at this point, USF and UCF are going to become very real threats. Both schools have vastly improved their infrastructure in the last 10 years, and have gained much more notoriety from the general student populace. I could easily see one of those schools moving up to consistently challenge UF/FSU for dominance in Florida within the next 10 years. They are becoming much more prominent universities, and they are outputting students in high paying fields (IT for UCF, and Medicine for USF). That will translate into greater numbers of alumni with disposable income in the near to midrange future, and let them jump UM for that spot in the Big 3.
USF has a good starting line up year to year, but their main issue is that they just don't have the depth to compete at the higher levels consistently. Fortunately for USF, the more UF and FSU recruit nationally, the better chance they have to build some depth. Lots of school come to Florida to recruit. If USF can somehow improve at building walls around central Florida besides the cherry picked guys from UF and FSU, they can probably compete for Big East titles in not too long. If Miami feels like they can no longer keep a wall around South Florida, they might travel up to USF recruiting spots, which would be a real challenge for USF.
Weird goings on in Oregon today, lots of ups and downs:
- Oregon steals a 4-star recruit from UW
- Oregon placekicker in critical condition after trying to break up a bar/street fight. Currently stable after reconstructive facial surgery.
- Lots of reports naming an Oregon WR as a robbery suspect after stealing stuff from a frat. Masoli named in reports but is not a suspect, according to police. Even weirder is the suspect (Embry) was supposedly kicked off the team and kicked out of the frat this weekend.
Michigan's only problem location wise in getting good players is that it's fucking cold. But we don't want any of those pansies anyway.
The best way to evaluate this is: What jobs would no coach ever, ever leave for another college job?
And the answer to that question is:
USC, Florida, Texas, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Alabama
We do not know the answer for:
Penn State, Florida State
Dennis Franchione left them for A&M just a few short years ago. Does that mean they're not a top job? Bob Stoops has turned down countless offers, including his alma mater, to remain at Oklahoma. They're not a top job? Just to belabor that point, can you tell me the last time a head coach left Oklahoma to coach another college job? I'll wait.
Weird goings on in Oregon today, lots of ups and downs:
- Oregon steals a 4-star recruit from UW
Yeah, I'm not happy about that although he's a lifelong Oregon fan and we would have stolen him from YOU if UO hadn't decided to let him play WR after all. He's a genuine home run threat and we need that badly.
What sanctions have hit A&M since Franchione left? He just didn't have time in my humble opinion.
Kilroydos: I gotta disagree but give a nod to enlightenedbum. Florida is hot recently. They don't exactly have a lot of prestige compared to a lot of other programs. Don't get me wrong, they've been awesome as of late, but they've only won conference and national championships under two coaches and those have been recent.
Same with Texas. They're the Notre Dame of the south, I don't know why but I can't stand it either. (lol, big rival) I hate going to the West End for OUTX weekend and seeing all of these hispanic folk giving me the bird, telling me OU sucks, Texas is the best, etc. So I just ask them when they went there, or what they're studying there. The speechless and taken aback faces suffice for an answer for me.
How does that happen though? Oklahoma has been a more consistent and championship-prone team than Texas, but when mentioning the "powers" of CFB people always say, "Florida, Texas and USC..." It just doesn't add up to me.
No no, the hammer was coming down on 'Bama. Meekly.
Because CFB is a what have you done for me lately (and by lately, I mean the last 2/3 seasons) sport. Oklahoma hasn't won a BCS game in a while, therefore they suck.
Also it's Oklahoma, which is a hard to remember state. It's pretty useless. :P
enlightenedbum on
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Texas has won just as many BCS games as OU, but has lost less (I guess that mean's something, but what about OU making it to more BCS games?) But I do get what you're saying.
In the same light, what about USC? When's the last time they won anything? Mid-decade but they're still hailed. Same with Texas.
And hey. Oklahoma is pretty averagely average in average things. But we're awesome and college football.
USC won the Rose Bowl lots recently. They won either the Rose Bowl or the BCS title game every year since what, 2003 (excluding '05 when they played in one of the more entertaining games ever). So yeah, they've won BCS games lately.
Oklahoma is well above average in having assholes represent it in the Senate though, so you've got that going for you!
enlightenedbum on
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Kilroydos: I gotta disagree but give a nod to enlightenedbum. Florida is hot recently. They don't exactly have a lot of prestige compared to a lot of other programs. Don't get me wrong, they've been awesome as of late, but they've only won conference and national championships under two coaches and those have been recent.
That's not entirely true. We had a SEC championship vacated in 1984 (under Pell,) and then we got hit hard with violations by a Dooley led (for real, the former Georgia coach expected to be unbiased) SEC board. 107 major infractions. We weren't even allowed to play for it in 1985 (under Hall) despite having the best record in the SEC. Same thing with 1990 (under Spurrier.)
So? At what point does that become relevant to a coaching job now? If championships are your rubric, wouldn't Yale and Princeton be the most prestigious? Are you purely holding it to post 1938? Let's look at Bama pre-Saban. Mike DuBose was a promoted defensive coordinator. Franchione was having an impressive short run at TCU when he got the call. Alabama then got the QB coach from the Dolphins.
Where does this look familiar?
Hm. Ron Zook was hired from being d-coordinator from the Saints. He was then replaced by Utah up and comer Urban Meyer. All we're missing is Urban Meyer leaving to a lesser program to be replaced by another modest coaching prospect.
So if you're going to argue that the Sooners are similar to Bama in prestige as a coaching job, than why did Bama go through a hiring process for coaches similar to Florida?
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aaaaaaaaaaand Ioooowaaa!!!
8-)
To me, the Top Tier of College Football Jobs would include Southern Cal, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, LSU, Florida, Florida State, and Ohio State. All of these jobs have all of the following:
- An expansive booster base eager and willing to spend a lot of money
- Tradition / Pedigree that produces a "cultural cache" within its recruiting footprint
- Located in a talent producing state within a talent producing region
There are some programs, like Miami, that have the latter two but are severely lacking in the Money department. There are others, like Tennessee, that are located in a talent producing region but not talent producing state. As College Football becomes more and more diluted, the inherent advantages in not having to go Out of State for the majority of your players will become more drastic.
Texas, California, and Florida. Although an argument can be made for all three and admittedly trying to differentiate between them is splitting hairs, for me Florida stands on top, Texas is second, and California third. Florida is so deep that it can sustain two top 5 teams indefinitely, the majority of the Big East, Big 10 teams like Iowa, and still provide elite talent to every SEC and ACC program. Texas and California do this similarly for their region's conferences and lower teams, but not to the degree that Florida does it.
I call Texas the best job in the country because it has the most money and the most "cultural cache" within its state of the top tier teams that are located in talent producing states within talent producing regions. Nearly every kid in Texas begs for a Texas offer. And if they don't, there's a big chance that their HS coach will make them. Only parts of Dallas aren't glowing with a burnt orange hue (they're split 50/50 with OU).
Southern California doesn't even own Southern California. There are more than a couple powerhouse HS programs - most notably Crenshaw High - that are very pro UCLA. But because Carroll was such a stunning recruiter and because they were winning at such a clip, they were able to go OOS to fill in the gaps. Within the span of modern college football, USC struggled pretty badly before Carroll. This isn't to say that USC isn't a top tier job, just that it doesn't even up with Texas in terms of the cultural cache that leads to dominating a talent rich state.
Texas also separates itself from Florida and Florida State because of the unique Big Three dynamic in Florida. Neither of the three programs can separate themselves enough to break free of the pack. Sure, there are periods where one is on top, but as soon as the other two get their bearings they're right back in it. Luckily for them, though, Florida has so much talent that it doesn't matter if it gets split up into thirds - that's still good enough to win an MNC.
However, the Big 3 will probably lose Miami soon if they can't pick it up financially. Back in the 80s or even as recently the 2000-2002 period, College Football wasn't as dependent on money as it is now. So, Miami's financial dearth didn't come into play. Now, it's not uncommon for a 5 star recruit to get as much as 50k to sign with a school. Miami doesn't have the dough to produce the facilities, pay the big time players, or do any of the other auxiliary yet essential things to compete in the modern day.
The players are the resources. Neither Notre Dame nor Michigan reside in a state that can support them. They won big back in the day when there were only 5 or 6 programs in the country at their level, but now as things are getting flatter they haven't won.
And Notre Dame is additionally excluded because of its self-imposed academic constraints. IF they drop those, maybe we can talk. Until they don't, they won't be able to recruit any talent at DL or LB and will consequently lose 6 games a year because they cant play defense.
Also, just because a team isn't in that Top tier doesn't mean they can't win championships. The tier below, which would include like a Penn State, is still good enough with some luck. But to suppose that Penn State could contend with any of those teams above it were they properly managed is pretty wrong.
Notre Dame also recruits nationally and has the third largest city in the country as their recruiting base. They've just had shit coaches for 15 years. And you'll note they got one of the top LB recruits in the nation last year, which apparently they can't get because all DL and LB are stupid and can't get into Notre Dame.
1) Michigan has a national championship in the last 15 years.
2) Michigan contended for two others in the last 7 (2003 #4 BCS, 2006 #3). Before the last two years they were among the ten most consistent programs in the country.
3) You hilariously include Florida State, which has done far less than Michigan over the last decade.
You are a silly, silly goose.
To say Florida State's issues are anything more than coaching related for the last decade shows that you don't follow much College Football beyond your own team.
Notre Dame has Chicago, yes, but Chicago doesn't produce Football talent at a clip anywhere near rural Georgia, for example. Does New York? Does any Northern Metropolis? No.
Also, don't cite the Big 10's relative rankings that are created by playing either regional D1-aa teams or other big 10 teams, fattened up by the Northern Media for this discussion (2003 #4 BCS, 2006 #3). Need I remind you what has happened to the Big 10 every single silly time they've gone out of their conference in a big game, except most recently against Georgia Tech (a team that is way too academically plagued to ever contend realistically)?
#3, at two separate occasions #2 in the BCS Penn State plays an unranked Florida State in the Orange bowl and needed Three overtimes and a missed field goal to win. And that was the most respectable performance. And before you bring it up, Michigan 2007 versus Florida featured a Michigan team with 10 seniors on Offense against a Florida defense with 7 freshmen and 3 sophomores, including 3 freshmen defensive backs against an NFL Quarterback. And still, Michigan almost lost.
For every rule an exception, Oklahoma. One, the state of Oklahoma produces more talent on average than the City of Chicago. Over the last 10 years, The state of Oklahoma has had more 4 star or 5 star players than Chicago every single year. So it's not like they're as bare as Notre Dame in that respect. Oklahoma, of all the states that aren't considered talent rich, is probably the richest with talent. Virginia would come second, Pennsylvania third. Also, Oklahoma makes it up with a very good showing in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, owning Nevada (underrated), sharing Arizona with Southern Cal, and raiding any other Mountain/Midwest fringe state. No other team below that can make that claim, except maybe Tennessee, and not to that degree.
Have a look at Notre Dame's utterly deceiving recruiting rankings the last 5 years. Where is their talent? Prep school players. It's easy to find a 5 star QB that can qualify for ND's academic constraints. Very easy, in fact, since QBs are often groomed in these prep schools. So, too, can you find some RBs and WRs. And an OL, like Brent Benedict at Jacksonville's prep school or Brandon Linder at Saint Thomas Aquinas.
But Defensive Linemen and Linebackers are a whole 'nother story, and having shit in this department is more of the reason ND has squandered for 15 years than coaching. Championship teams have ~17 talented DL and ~12 talented LBs on average. Alabama recently had 27 last year. Of those, probably 20 wouldn't have qualified for ND under their self imposed restrictions. This is the problem with ND. DL and LBs are dumb, usually. And they're not letting them in.
That's why Meyer didn't go to ND in the first place. He wanted 10 academic exceptions a year, like they gave Lou Holtz. ND brass said no, said they could win without it. Welp, it didn't work out for Bob Davie, Ty Willingham, or Charlie Weiss, all of whom weren't given the academic help that Holtz demanded before he took the job.
You're ignoring the fact that schools recruit nationally and outside OSU against the SEC and Michigan against USC, the Big Ten does fine. They have a winning record in the Capital One Bowl all time, for example. Against the SEC runner up or #2, depending how many BCS bids the SEC gets. Same in the Outback. You'll also note that OSU beat Texas in 2006, narrowly lost to the Vince Young death squad the year before (which, if we'll recall, Michigan was an inch from beating the year before).
Also, that Michigan team that beat Florida didn't have 10 seniors on offense. Manningham and Arrington were both juniors Justin Boren was the starting guard, not a senior, right guard was a revolving door both of whom left the team the next spring (not seniors!), RT was Steven Schilling, who's still the starting LG (not a senior!), Carson Butler started at TE, he got thrown off the team for being a jackass (not a senior!).
The seniors: Chad Henne, Jake Long, Mike Hart, Adam Kraus. But yes, you clearly follow college football nationally! That was also Lloyd Carr's second worst team and they beat the 9-3 third place team in the dreaded SEC. Featuring the Heisman winner/Jesus against a terrible defense.
I also find it amusing that you say the Big Ten feasts on 1-AA teams while including ... any teams other than USC.
Florida State and Notre Dame's problems aren't the same at all. Notre Dame's problems are an inability to recruit defensive front seven depth, a necessity to recruit nationally for every recruit (which limits them), and self imposed academic constraints.
Florida State's problems the last 10 years were strictly coaching. They don't have any academic hindrances, they don't have a problem recruiting front seven depth, and they reside in the top talent producing region in the country. As soon as they rid themselves of Jeff Bowden on offense, FSU's Offensive ranking went from the low 90s to the top 20 in three years. If FSU still struggles next year and in 2011, I'll bump this thread and give you credit. But 25 years of evidence points that won't happen.
But, Oh, Chicago, because it's like dense or some shit. The same Chicago that produces less talent than sparsely populated Southern Georgia every year.
Odd, considering the vast superiority of the SEC to the stogy old Big Ten. And hey look, PSU beat LSU this year... if I go back we'll find some Wisconsin wins, too.
Again: goose of a silly nature.
Michigan, Notre Dame, Tennessee, Penn State, Auburn, Georgia (because it doesn't control its borders), Virginia Tech, Miami would be its company.
And by not including Nebraska, I illustrate my belief that the flattening of college football has drastically changed the landscape. Where before Nebraska could walk into any living room in the country, like Michigan, regardless of geography, now it can't. There are too many options, diluting the gravitas that these "OOS" programs once wielded.
Michigan can win 8 games in two years and still pull a boundary of the top ten depending how the next two weeks go recruiting class. Because they have a national recruiting base, which is the thing you're ignoring because it fits your narrative.
An example: three years ago, there were two highly regarded WR/CBs. One was from Michigan, the other from Southern California. They had the same final two schools, Michigan and USC. The kid from Southern California was Donovan Warren, the kid from Michigan was Ronald Johnson. Michigan's got quite a few players the last few years out of Pahokee, Florida. That offense with those five NFL players? Jake Long was the only one from Michigan (Manningham: Ohio, Henne: Pennsylvania, Arrington: Iowa, Hart: New York). Plenty of Texans on the roster. And even if we ignore that, Michigan has the exact same talent producing region that Ohio State does! Michigan gets a ton of Ohio kids every year. So let's judge by your criteria:
Expansive booster base willing to spend... check (they're only spending like 450 million bucks on various renovations at the moment...). Tradition/pedigree... obviously. Talent producing region: yup, unless OSU is also not, but we've included them, so... hmmm. Interesting. And like all the major programs, it's national recruiting, which you have thus far failed to acknowledge. That's the thing about having a ton of resources (aka money). Notre Dame is the same, as is Penn State (and they have a richer recruiting base, because they're the closest major power to the northeast), not to mention Pennsylvania's rich football tradition.
Basically, you're ignoring reality to fit your own wishes. Like the idea that FSU will be back on top real soon, it was just Bowden's crappy management that killed them. But it's really only players that matter, and FSU has great players.
Also funny: Nebraska finishing in the top 15 without an offense because... apparently you can't get talent there. Especially not talent from Portland, Oregon, for example.
I'm speaking more to the potential to get good players and the ease that FSU can do so as opposed to Michigan, because of their location.
The best way to evaluate this is: What jobs would no coach ever, ever leave for another college job?
And the answer to that question is:
USC, Florida, Texas, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Alabama
We do not know the answer for:
Penn State, Florida State
Just because Florida has had a good four years while FSU and Miami have had down times does not separate it from FSU or Miami. Florida doesn't have any real advantage over FSU aside from coaching (and hopefully that issue has been resolved.) Florida fans will say this too, there's a reason it's called The Big Three.
Flip the situation and it's obviously not true. So until we know, we can't say.
That rarely happens. UF's always had a "northerner" over "sec good ole boy" tinge to its athletic department, so Meyer wasn't a culture shock there.
I guess Saban is the best counterexample to that, though. Devoid of any southern drawl or charm and to go into LSU and Bama. But he did surround himself with homegrown Southern assistants like Muschamp, Kirby Smart, Derek Dooley, Lance Thompson, Karl Dunbar, Jimbo Fisher, etc.
- Will Muschamp, Texas DC and future Texas HC
- Derek Dooley, Tennessee HC
- Jimbo Fisher, FSU HC
- James Coley, FSU OC
- Kirby Smart, Alabama DC
- Karl Dunbar, soon to be NFL DC (after this year I think he gets it)
And there are some names I'm forgetting. Jesus.
And Saban is just a jackass. Fuck Saban.
Gardner is pretty damn good.
Forcier's the starter, Gardner will redshirt unless Forcier gets injured and he has to miss time or he absolutely blows people away in spring practice. Denard is the nominal backup/change of pace (hopefully with a full year he can be OK in the passing game). God knows what they do with Robinson in 2011 though.
Forcier destroyed his (throwing) shoulder and kept playing last year, thus the huge drop off after Indiana.
Also, Florida finished 3rd in the SEC East that year. Not 3rd in the SEC. Georgia and Tennessee both finished above Florida. We were like 5th in the SEC.
Miami's problem is that it remains a college football team in a city that's not really a college football city. If you've seen a Miami football game you'll probably notice so many empty seats. They have a bunch of big boosters, and they do have a good amount of money, so I don't think money is the problem. I just don't think they can keep interest when they lose from recruits or even the players. It was interesting this year to watch Miami get through the toughest first few games of their schedule and then proceed to collapse. It's that mythical "swagger" shit. If Miami isn't kicking ass, that stuff is gone. Their team doesn't appear well disciplined enough to come back from when they aren't playing well.
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Bright Futures (which is the Sunshine States subsidized tuition program) only covers 50% of your costs at a private institution, meaning a Florida kid can go to UF or FSU for free, or rack up a ton of bills going to UM. It will always play third wheel in Florida with the way everything is set up. Hell, at this point, USF and UCF are going to become very real threats. Both schools have vastly improved their infrastructure in the last 10 years, and have gained much more notoriety from the general student populace. I could easily see one of those schools moving up to consistently challenge UF/FSU for dominance in Florida within the next 10 years. They are becoming much more prominent universities, and they are outputting students in high paying fields (IT for UCF, and Medicine for USF). That will translate into greater numbers of alumni with disposable income in the near to midrange future, and let them jump UM for that spot in the Big 3.
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- Oregon steals a 4-star recruit from UW
- Oregon placekicker in critical condition after trying to break up a bar/street fight. Currently stable after reconstructive facial surgery.
- Lots of reports naming an Oregon WR as a robbery suspect after stealing stuff from a frat. Masoli named in reports but is not a suspect, according to police. Even weirder is the suspect (Embry) was supposedly kicked off the team and kicked out of the frat this weekend.
Dennis Franchione left them for A&M just a few short years ago. Does that mean they're not a top job? Bob Stoops has turned down countless offers, including his alma mater, to remain at Oklahoma. They're not a top job? Just to belabor that point, can you tell me the last time a head coach left Oklahoma to coach another college job? I'll wait.
And I forgot the qualifier of "coaches with a functioning nervous system."
Kilroydos: I gotta disagree but give a nod to enlightenedbum. Florida is hot recently. They don't exactly have a lot of prestige compared to a lot of other programs. Don't get me wrong, they've been awesome as of late, but they've only won conference and national championships under two coaches and those have been recent.
Same with Texas. They're the Notre Dame of the south, I don't know why but I can't stand it either. (lol, big rival) I hate going to the West End for OUTX weekend and seeing all of these hispanic folk giving me the bird, telling me OU sucks, Texas is the best, etc. So I just ask them when they went there, or what they're studying there. The speechless and taken aback faces suffice for an answer for me.
How does that happen though? Oklahoma has been a more consistent and championship-prone team than Texas, but when mentioning the "powers" of CFB people always say, "Florida, Texas and USC..." It just doesn't add up to me.
Because CFB is a what have you done for me lately (and by lately, I mean the last 2/3 seasons) sport. Oklahoma hasn't won a BCS game in a while, therefore they suck.
Also it's Oklahoma, which is a hard to remember state. It's pretty useless. :P
In the same light, what about USC? When's the last time they won anything? Mid-decade but they're still hailed. Same with Texas.
And hey. Oklahoma is pretty averagely average in average things. But we're awesome and college football.
Oklahoma is well above average in having assholes represent it in the Senate though, so you've got that going for you!
And to bum: I sure as hell didn't vote for them. I'm blue in a sea of obnoxious, retarded red. (not crimson, lol)
That's not entirely true. We had a SEC championship vacated in 1984 (under Pell,) and then we got hit hard with violations by a Dooley led (for real, the former Georgia coach expected to be unbiased) SEC board. 107 major infractions. We weren't even allowed to play for it in 1985 (under Hall) despite having the best record in the SEC. Same thing with 1990 (under Spurrier.)
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Where does this look familiar?
Hm. Ron Zook was hired from being d-coordinator from the Saints. He was then replaced by Utah up and comer Urban Meyer. All we're missing is Urban Meyer leaving to a lesser program to be replaced by another modest coaching prospect.
So if you're going to argue that the Sooners are similar to Bama in prestige as a coaching job, than why did Bama go through a hiring process for coaches similar to Florida?
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