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Politically Correct: Is It Correct, You Silly Goose?

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    'Ignore the bully and they'll stop' was bad advice in grade school. It isn't any better when applied to other concepts.

    Avoiding confrontation is not the answer to everything.

    Santa Claustrophobia on
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    derm... I really don't understand where you're coming from

    on the contrary the very nature of identifying something that is a stereotype helps you recognize it does reflect reality

    For instance if someone was to think that all homosexuals have lisps and I was to inform them they don't, I would be informing them that something was a stereotype but they would be better off for it.

    Casual Eddy on
    Elki wrote: »

    Casual Eddy: best poster 2014.
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Casual Eddy: best poster of 2015

    gotta update that stuff man
  • edited January 2010
    Demerdar wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    GTA5 Utopia City : Use light rail to navigate around the city exploring quaint historical landmarks. Meet sophisticated women or men at art galleries for passionate love making on their terms. Help old ladies through the crosswalk. Talk about the challenges of running a small business in a multi-culturally diverse city. Volunteer at a center for troubled youths. Participate in a community-police partnership effort to improve your neighborhood.

    Using GTA games as an example of Racism/Sexism/Homophobia is pretty silly. Its not like they went lets make a gay character, and Tony was what they figured a realistic gay person would be like. The games are chocked full of stereotypes intentionally, because they meld with the rest of the over the top elements pretty well.


    so you would be fine if GTA featured only black characters that were noticeably more violent and primitive than white people, as well as stupider. Also they would drink 40s and eat fried chicken and sound like a minstrel show. And would be illiterate.

    So wait, who's the the one stereotyping people?

    So I'm guessing that you don't know the difference between documenting stereotypes and believing them?

    I don't understand how actively reinforcing stereotypes, be it by documenting them or believing in them ever helps them go away.

    Well I'm a little bit confused about how you expect to combat stereotypes if you don't want to discuss them at all.

    Doesn't that just perpetuate them? If you keep bringing them up, how will they ever go away?

    Hint: They never will, so lets just stop discussing it?

    Yes, yes, the way to stop prejudice is to not discuss it.

    Is really all that harmful for somebody to think a black man likes to eat fried chicken? Is it really? Is anybody stupid enough to bring it up to a black person without it being in jest?

    I guess the idea is that 'harmless' stereotypes open the backdoor for more serious ones.

    bongi on
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    oh I was adding fried chicken as hyperbole... crime, drug dealing, and stupidy are certainly stereotypes of black people

    that you think discussing stereotypes at all is somehow hateful is pretty bizarre

    Casual Eddy on
    Elki wrote: »

    Casual Eddy: best poster 2014.
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Casual Eddy: best poster of 2015

    gotta update that stuff man
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Sheep wrote: »
    old people don't have any excuse to be racist.

    Sure they do. I'm not saying it's right, but there's a pretty traceable reason for many of the elderly to have the attitude they may have. Many of them grew up in large communities and time frames where racism was not only rampant, but was encouraged.

    I imagine it's hard to shake decades of rhetoric being drummed into you.

    tolerance doesn't magically appear. it comes from people that are willing to make a conscious decision not to look down on other people.

    people in their 50's 60's 70's and so on aren't retarded. they make a conscious choice to retain their hatred, 'ingrained' or not.

    Yeah except no. It's really difficult to change your beliefs. Hell, I'm 21 and I change them only in the face of really good arguments. Old people don't really make a conscious choice to believe what they believe, it's more that they made that choice ages ago.

    Now, you could try to change that belief but there appears to be little point. It's difficult and there is almost no pay-off. Better to just let them be racist since they're going to be dead soon anyway.

    Julius on
  • MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    that you think discussing stereotypes at all is somehow hateful is pretty bizarre

    Yeah, fuck anthropologists! Those guys are assholes! What with their studying culture and shit.

    MrMister on
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2010
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    How old were the Gen Xers when Reagan became popular?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    How old were the Gen Xers when Reagan became popular?

    That depends on if you mean popular when elected, popular once he forgot how to tie shoes, or popular when he was an actor.

    Santa Claustrophobia on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    How old were the Gen Xers when Reagan became popular?

    That depends on if you mean popular when elected, popular once he forgot how to tie shoes, or popular when he was an actor.

    Popular when his PR made people forget how shitty a president he was.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    How old were the Gen Xers when Reagan became popular?

    That depends on if you mean popular when elected, popular once he forgot how to tie shoes, or popular when he was an actor.

    Popular when his PR made people forget how shitty a president he was.

    Probably the day after Clinton was elected... So about 20-25, maybe?

    Santa Claustrophobia on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    How old were the Gen Xers when Reagan became popular?

    You jest now but you just wait! Political correctness will change over time! After 80 years of liberal trends nudging society towards a Leftist utopia, people will have lewd sex in the streets with no concern for the sensitivities of others. You'll try to protest, remembering simpler times when people merely kissed in public, but your grandchildren will say, "Grandpa! People are just expressing their affection for one another without hurting anyone and you want to stop them? Don't be a bigot against lovetarians!"

    When you're in your 90s, you'll fondly remember the golden year of 2010 when people were sane.

    emnmnme on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    people will have lewd sex in the streets with no concern for the sensitivities of others
    I'm not seeing the problem here. The lack of privacy means I will be able to watch using public cameras.

    Couscous on
  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    people will have lewd sex in the streets with no concern for the sensitivities of others
    I'm not seeing the problem here. The lack of privacy means I will be able to watch using public cameras.

    The revolution will not be televised.

    LoveIsUnity on
    steam_sig.png
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    PantsB wrote: »
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    *Sigh*

    Baby, why you gotta make me pull out my gender and communication book.
    "What gender means and how we express it depend on a society's values, beliefs, and preferred ways of organizing collective life....

    To realize the arbitrariness of the meanings of gender, we need only consider varying ways different cultures define masculinity and femininity. Many years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead (1935/68) reported three distinct gender patterns in the New Guinea societies she studied. Among the Arapesh people, both women and men conformed closely to what we consider feminine behavior. Both were passive, peaceful, and deferential, and both nurtured others, especially young children.

    The Mundugumor tribe socialized both women and men to be aggressive, independent, and competitive. Mothers were not nurturing and spent very little time with newborn babies, weaning them early instead.

    Within the Tchambuli society, genders were the reverse of current ones in America: Women were domineering and sexually aggressive, whereas men were considered delicate and taught to wear decorative clothes and curl their hair so they would be attractive to women."

    ~Gendered Lives: Communication, Gender, and Culture by Julia T. Wood. Page 26-27.

    I could go on, she provides more examples, but I'm kind of tired of typing.

    However, our gender norms have negative effects because they essentially restrict what we can, or in some cases want to be. Read that book - or more on the issue to get a good understanding of it.
    Mead's work in this field is highly questionable. It basically boiled down to "Go someplace almost impossible to follow, find super primitive tribes that have nothing anyone wants and make claims that are fairly unverifiable that just happen to support my underlying thesis."

    And besides, tribes in New Guinea were fucked. I don't mean that in a value judgment way. But if you take isolated unstable little tribes at a primitive development stage in harsh situations and then add on colonial encroachment which always results in societal instability and upheaval, you're going to get some pretty wacky micro-societies.

    And that's all the "societies" that Mead were studying were. The "Tchambuli" were less than 1000 people (now called Chambri, known only because of Mead's claims and their refutation) The Mundugumor have never been located by anyone by Mead who claimed they were literally savages as they had been cannibals and headhunters living in the jungle and they no longer exist. What little "society" existed was almost certainly transitional and the result of the upheaval colonial powers brought to the region. Mead's descriptions of Arapesh were immediately seen to be contradictory and her husband published a number of works pointing out that she was full of it. The whole book is kinda crap. Here's a recent anthro article describing some of the problems including primary fieldwork among the Arapesh.

    Gender roles are not purely societal constructs. Society reinforces and emphasizes whats already there, which can prove harmful or limiting by turning tendencies into requirements

    Enlighten me. What's already there?

    You also make a lot of assertions without citations. So - cite?
    I actually made one more citation than you did but regardless.

    If I post primate studies you'll just say "not human!" If I post human studies you'll say "prove it wasn't all society!"

    The fact is that human behavior maps to primate behavior on a some fundamental levels. This makes sense because we came from them. We aren't magic beings of rationality and reason, we're animals with brains grafted on as a very late adaptation. In an animal society, males and females have differing roles. This leads to the selection of traits. Some of those sex-based tendencies have passed down to the relatively minuscule amount of time (on an species scale) that we have been post-hunter-gatherer.

    When an attribute (gender-based tendencies) exists in man and it exists in the vast majority of the closest genetic ancestors/relatives of man, it is not a reasonable position to say the burden of proof is on those who say that expectations of attributes or roles based on gender can be entirely or almost entirely blamed on society. Its never all nature and its never all nurture. There's a non-trivial biological element whether you want to believe it or not. Hormones aren't imaginary. The evolutionary record is not imaginary.

    And whether or not its "natural" is irrelevant to whether woman should be able to have a man's job, a little girl can play with trucks or man can wear makeup. If something is natural we don't have to condone it. A prohibition on rape is societal construct. The concept of equal rights is a social construct. There's no reason to try to project gender equality into some kind of pre-societal origins. Humanity has realizes that women and men are equal in dignity and each deserve equal respect and opportunity. Pretending it was always that way until society got in the way is silly.

    Oh, I believe I misunderstood you - Yes, I would agree that hormones have an influence over gender roles, however, as many have pointed out - and as you have acknowledged as well - gender, in large part, is a social construction. The fact that we break our gender roles on a daily basis, and have broken them historically over the course of human history, is proof of how malleable this human characteristic is. I would dare say a lot of our gender roles are arbitrary.
    In an animal society, males and females have differing roles. This leads to the selection of traits. Some of those sex-based tendencies have passed down to the relatively minuscule amount of time (on an species scale) that we have been post-hunter-gatherer.

    This brings up the difference between a biosocial perspective and a social learning perspective. Biosocial looks at all animals, while social learning theorists look at humanity alone, because goshdarnit, we're special. To fall back on "well, we're animals" seems like a lazy way of looking at and explaining gender roles, and I challenge you to find any study that attempts to quantifiably measure the effect our "animal instincts" have on our gender roles.

    Obviously you like to believe that nature plays just as big of a role as nurture in deciding a person's gender roles. You're arguing that a lot of these behaviors, such as prohibition of rape, equal rights, etc. are social constructs. If that's the case, then the acceptance of aggression in certain circumstances can be construed as a social construct as well.

    SkyGheNe on
  • samurai6966samurai6966 Registered User
    edited January 2010
    On the "gay people must acted gay to be gay" thing, my uncle is gay. My grandparents have disowned him, but I still talk to him and so does my mom (my grandma is Ultra-Christian and my grandpa is a proud homophobic racist), but you would never know he's gay unless you saw him with a man or asked. He dresses like a business man and talks with a country accent (but so do I). He runs a lot of Subways in Georgia and is the most successful person in my family (from my view). But because I'm military, I'm the "golden child". I hate it because its not like killed someone or something bad to be shunned. He just likes guys more then women.

    samurai6966 on
    Echo wrote: »
    Yeah, some times I just want to get my farm in shape without being bothered by green explosive dildos.
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    On the topic of GTA4 and homosexual characters: Bernie's quite obviously a caricature of a gay man, feeding into certain stereotypes. What complicates the situation somewhat, though, is that Nico doesn't condemn him, he doesn't joke about Bernie's sexual preferences, in fact he helps him as much and as well as he helps any other character in the game. This doesn't negate the gay stereotype, but it does complicate the game's attitude towards homosexuality nevertheless.

    Thirith on
    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Variable wrote: »
    people really think old folks can't learn?

    you should respect your elders a little more. or think about whether you'd want to be looked at that way when you get older.

    at what age do folks lose their ability to realize they're wrong?

    I agree with this

    EDIT: Not to mention it's astoundingly unlikely for an 80 year to go his or her entire life without having a meaningful interaction with a black person to have someone explain that being racist isn't okay.

    Casual Eddy on
    Elki wrote: »

    Casual Eddy: best poster 2014.
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Casual Eddy: best poster of 2015

    gotta update that stuff man
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Frankly, even with the understanding that man tracks close to primates in terms of behavior in pre-history, you have your choice of a lot of possible "natural" states.

    Basically every type of primate has almost a unique social structure attached to them, and the way we view that structure can change dramatically from one year to the next. Depending on the person and the year, our natural society is like Baboons: patriarchal. Or like Baboons: matriarchal!

    Evolutionary psych is just too likely to come down to just-so stories, which I don't feel are actually useful. It rarely has predictable hypothesis.

    durandal4532 on
    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    people will have lewd sex in the streets with no concern for the sensitivities of others
    I'm not seeing the problem here. The lack of privacy means I will be able to watch using public cameras.

    The revolution will not be televised.

    Oh yes it will.

    $40 pay-per-view.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    And because I like screwing with the balance of these conversations:
    from being merely formal, Capital's domination has become little by little real. the commodity society now seeks to find its best supports in the marginalized elements of traditional society themselves - women and youths first, then homosexuals and immigrants.


    commodity society can now give an air of emancipation to those that in the past it treated as minorities, who were the most foreign and most spontaneously hostile to commodity society, not having been folded into its dominant norms of integration. "the youth and their mothers," acknowledges Stuart Ewen, "will supply the social principles of consumer ethics to the lifestyles offered by advertising." the youth, because adolescence is "a period of life defined by a relationship of pure consumption with civil society." (Stuart Ewen, Captains of Consciousness ). and women, because at the time it was the sphere of reproduction, over which women still held sway, that they needed to colonize. Youth and Femininity, hypostatized, abstract, and recoded into youthitude and feminitude, are then elevated to the rank of ideal regulators of empire-citizen integration. and the figure of the YoungGirl thus realizes an immediate, spontaneous, and perfectly desirable unity between those two variables.


    the tomboy is indispensable as a kind of modernity, much more thrilling than all the stars and starlets so quickly invading the globalized imagination. Albertine, found on the wall around a seaside resort, exhausts the whole collapsing world of [Proust's] "in search of lost time" with her relaxed, pansexual vitality. The high school girl makes her will the law in Ferdydurke. And a new authority figure is born, one that out-classes them all.

    http://younggirl.jottit.com/

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
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