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Ubisoft busting out the online DRM beams

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Posts

  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Sirson wrote: »
    Yay Piracy debates, always entertaining and rarely gets anyone to see things from a different view point. I really disagree with anyone that says Piracy ain't no big thang on the PC. I won't argue the point however because we will just be chasing eachother in circles. I'm just glad the big game companies are still publishing games on the PC, for awhile there it almost seemed like they were done with the medium all together.

    Nobody is saying that it's not a problem, we're saying that since whatever DRM measure they come up with won't do shit to actually stop piracy, so they should just take that $n00,000 and use it to make the game better instead, and maybe stop making the non-pirates jump through hoops while they're at it.

    Daedalus on
  • SirsonSirson Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    RyanMC wrote: »
    God, stop saying this as if it somehow justifies it. There are far better ways to justify it if you really need to, just don't use this.

    What makes you think im trying to justify it? The statement is true, and it was part of what Kevin Rose has said in the past, which is why I included it. Those use this practice dont really care if it's "justified" or not. It IS practical to do even if it is viewed as morally wrong.

    It's about as useful as saying I can open a pack of Oreos at Martins to try before I buy. How convenient!

    Extremely poor analogy. When you open that pack of oreos, you eliminate stock from the store. No such thing occurs with digital piracy.

    I'm against digital piracy in it's actual, pure definition, but disagreeing with something doesn't mean I approve of misleading arguments against.

    As far as the subject goes with people "pirating" games that they legitimately own, the stance of the law on this in the United States is not clear, and I would defy any game publisher to successfully take someone to court for cracking a game that they own, or downloading a game that, for example, received accidental damage to the physical disc.

    You guys are debating the difference between theft and copyright infringement two different things, albiet very related.

    Sirson on
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The real thing here is that Ubi is allowed to do whatever it wants with it's own game. If they demanded $1000 a copy, then fine, if they only let you play it on tuesdays, fine. I don't object to the idea that they can take action to control their ip. I simply object to their choice of action and think it is stupid. It's also stupid to pirate games, your reasons (whatever they are) are irrelevant UNLESS perhaps you already own a legal copy which simply doesn't work thanks to DRM.

    If you want to make a game which uses an always on connection to prevent piracy, then MAKE AN MMO.

    Honestly, steam works. It puts the legitimate user in a good place to buy games directly from the internet at a fair price, using a DRM solution everyone likes. Recent games have been coming with 2 or 3 extra DRMS! It's insane

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I just realised something.

    Trackmania 2. This shit will be on Trackmania 2.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!! YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR THIS TIME UBISOFT!!

    jaziek on
    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
  • WykedWyked Registered User
    edited February 2010
    tbloxham wrote: »

    Honestly, steam works.

    this.
    i havent pirated a game since steam became non suck (about 2 years after launch?).
    if you want to stop piracy, convinience + extra features > restrictive method.
    create online downloads, create registered bonus conent (ala biowares extra armor or other similar non time consuming endeavors).
    people will pay if they think they are getting a value. people will not pay if you hit them over the head and tell them to buy it (well, some people might like that i guess)

    honestly, for the piracy debate, you will never stop it. you can just marginalize it by making sure the vast majority of people intersted in your product feel like they are getting a value for their money.

    Wyked on
  • MonkeyConQuesoMonkeyConQueso Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    All of this just makes me sad. As a pioneer in Pirating back in the days of 5 1/4" floppies, I can say that our ilk was one of the first to lead us all down this path. And by "our ilk", I mean I was 13 along with my friends, going to Software Etc., buying a game then copying the disks and taking it back to the store with the claim that "It didn't work!" to get my money back.

    Seriously though, I pirated as a kid when I didn't know the full consequence of my actions. No, not the good/bad consequence, but the actual consequence of not paying someone for their hard work. It took me until I was 17 or 18 to realize that pirating just made things worse, so I stopped and did my part to not be one of "Them". After much time, I saw the effects of my previous behavior as game companies I LOVED folded and produced no more of their works. While some may shake their heads and say that what I did as a sole person did not determine the outcome of these companies, it doesn't take a genius to realize that when a QUARTER to HALF of everyone playing the game after it's release actually did not pay for it it can cause a severe loss of potential revenue that could have funded the company's growth and subsequent games. All you have to do use your brain - if you pirated, you contributed to the loss.

    Any ways, realize now that PC gaming will die a horrible horrible death if pirating continues on it. DON'T use the excuse that you're just demoing it, DON'T use the excuse that "you wouldn't buy even if you did have the money", and DON'T use DRM as an excuse to pirate for fuck's sake.

    My threshold for hacks falls short of buying the game, then hacking it to remove the DRM. There's a fine line there, and I think ultimately that is somewhat harmless. If someone can prove otherwise, let me know. I don't personally do that, as DRM to me is harmless to a point since I can deal with the repercussions myself. But what Ubisoft is proposing... Let's just say that I plan on not buying their games on PC, or playing them on PC. I'm going to have my dollar speak on this situation, and there are multitudes of games out there that I can spend my time on.

    MonkeyConQueso on
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  • LanrutconLanrutcon Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    This just struck me (and yeah, I may be slow here) but companies are all about making the monies. And if piracy really is a giant behemoth destroying lives left and right, then why do we still have a pc gaming industry? surely consoles have enough of a market at this point that developing for them is safer, easier and more profitable? But here we are, swimming in pc gaming goodness. The march lineup reads like porn to me. :winky: The impact of pirating seems maybe a tad exaggerated, tbh.

    Lanrutcon on
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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Honestly, steam works. It puts the legitimate user in a good place to buy games directly from the internet at a fair price, using a DRM solution everyone likes.

    It doesn't work well enough for Ubisoft, as they stated in the interview. Which is why they're going with this instead.

    A truly uncrackable system, or so they say.

    subedii on
  • CombatLibrarianCombatLibrarian Registered User
    edited February 2010
    After much time, I saw the effects of my previous behavior as game companies I LOVED folded and produced no more of their works. While some may shake their heads and say that what I did as a sole person did not determine the outcome of these companies, it doesn't take a genius to realize that when a QUARTER to HALF of everyone playing the game after it's release actually did not pay for it it can cause a severe loss of potential revenue that could have funded the company's growth and subsequent games..

    Overall I agree with your approach to this and point, but I want to point out that this point is wrong, because it's exactly the sort of BS that many of the DRM snake oil salesmen use to justify their product.

    Every pirated copy is NOT a potential sale.

    Only some of them are.

    You need to work on an educated estimate of what percent this is to make a statement on what influence piracy had on a game(s)/developers failure or success.

    CombatLibrarian on
  • CombatLibrarianCombatLibrarian Registered User
    edited February 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Honestly, steam works. It puts the legitimate user in a good place to buy games directly from the internet at a fair price, using a DRM solution everyone likes.

    It doesn't work well enough for Ubisoft, as they stated in the interview. Which is why they're going with this instead.

    A truly uncrackable system, or so they say.

    Or so they'd like us to believe. A more likely scenario is that someone either inside or outside the company convinced the people in charge that steam wasn't good enough, probably through the good old "every pirate would have purchased this game if they couldn't have pirated it" argument.

    CombatLibrarian on
  • GothicLargoGothicLargo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Honestly, steam works. It puts the legitimate user in a good place to buy games directly from the internet at a fair price, using a DRM solution everyone likes.

    It doesn't work well enough for Ubisoft, as they stated in the interview. Which is why they're going with this instead.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzUoWkbNLe8

    "But Apple takes a lot of the money. Apple..."

    Ubisoft just doesn't want to pay Valve for something they think they can do. Steam works, in the same way that iTunes Music Store works. People will only realistically submit to one pervasive scheme of online DRM management, and unfortunately for everyone else, the market has already chosen Valve, just like they've already chosen Apple. Ubisoft just needs to learn to deal with it.

    GothicLargo on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, one would hope that the whole piracy = theft would have been left to the exclusive domain of stupid movie previews a long time ago.

    It's also not a matter of "justifying" piracy. Saying "this is why it happens" isn't a justification. For piracy to happen, I as a consumer must have made two decisions:

    1) I'm interested in playing the game
    2) I'm unwilling or unable to pay retail price for it.

    Publishers for the most part focus anti-piracy efforts entirely on the first condition: they try to make pirates less interested in playing their game. You hardly ever (at least, apparently) see a company ask the question "how can we convince these people to give us their money?"

    I mean, the hardest part of the sale has been made: in the universe of games and movies and other media, the publisher has convinced the consumer that they should get a copy of their game. It should be really easy to get most pirates to pay money dollars for the product, exception for the tiny portion of consumers who will always turn to piracy (either because they're broke or for "ideological" reasons.) Only instead of even trying to do that, ubisoft has decided the make the product less appealing to both pirates and legitimate users.

    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    accept your death, and become dangerous
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Stardock is doing just fine with no DRM on their games. Piracy will never kill a PC gaming company, only their own incompetence will.

    http://pc.ign.com/articles/858/858653p2.html

    Jephery on
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  • RyanMCRyanMC Registered User
    edited February 2010
    QUARTER to HALF of everyone playing the game after it's release actually did not pay for it it can cause a severe loss of potential revenue that could have funded the company's growth and subsequent games. All you have to do use your brain - if you pirated, you contributed to the loss.

    I agree pirating is not a good thing, however taking the MPAA's word on things is a bit hard, specially considering how much crap they pull at the governmental level and I'm sorry, I just dont agree that the majority of people who pirated the game would have bough the game otherwise.


    Any ways, realize now that PC gaming will die a horrible horrible death if pirating continues on it.

    If this is why you think PC gaming is dieing... Well I'm sorry that just isnt true. Software in general is living proof of this.
    DON'T use the excuse that "you wouldn't buy even if you did have the money"

    I'm not following you, are you saying don't use the excuse, like a parent to a child? Or do you honestly believe those majority of people who pirate, would have bought the game otherwise?
    and DON'T use DRM as an excuse to pirate for fuck's sake.

    It's not an excuse its a reason, I think you are of the impression that people are just looking for an excuse to pirate. It is the other-way around. You have people who pirate and then you have developers who give people a reason to pirate. 2 very different things.

    I'm sorry but coming from someone who doesn't and has never pirated, I just find this thought that piracy is ruining pc gaming to just be utterly stupid. If computer software does fine despite piracy, then the game industry is no different. Video-games do not get a special excuse tag simple because some developers say so. They have been saying the same things since I can remember and guess what. PC gaming is still here, and the fact that companies still regularly push out software, still speaks volumes louder.

    I should clarify that, I am not defending piracy, I am attacking the people who hide behind piracy as an excuse for stupidity, incompetence, mediocrity, and just flatout terrible business sense. And it is just annoying to see these companies act SO unbelievably out of touch, and stupid that they seem impossibly able to understand that you don't burn the village to catch the ****ing thief.

    RyanMC on
  • UltrachristUltrachrist Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Yeah, one would hope that the whole piracy = theft would have been left to the exclusive domain of stupid movie previews a long time ago.

    It's also not a matter of "justifying" piracy. Saying "this is why it happens" isn't a justification. For piracy to happen, I as a consumer must have made two decisions:

    1) I'm interested in playing the game
    2) I'm unwilling or unable to pay retail price for it.

    Publishers for the most part focus anti-piracy efforts entirely on the first condition: they try to make pirates less interested in playing their game. You hardly ever (at least, apparently) see a company ask the question "how can we convince these people to give us their money?"

    I mean, the hardest part of the sale has been made: in the universe of games and movies and other media, the publisher has convinced the consumer that they should get a copy of their game. It should be really easy to get most pirates to pay money dollars for the product, exception for the tiny portion of consumers who will always turn to piracy (either because they're broke or for "ideological" reasons.) Only instead of even trying to do that, ubisoft has decided the make the product less appealing to both pirates and legitimate users.

    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Yep. This is totally whats needs to happen. I guess it's just a very hard pill for developers/publishers to swallow trying to cater to people who are already illegally downloading their stuff.

    Ultrachrist on
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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Honestly, steam works. It puts the legitimate user in a good place to buy games directly from the internet at a fair price, using a DRM solution everyone likes.

    It doesn't work well enough for Ubisoft, as they stated in the interview. Which is why they're going with this instead.

    /snip

    "But Apple takes a lot of the money. Apple..."

    Ubisoft just doesn't want to pay Valve for something they think they can do. Steam works, in the same way that iTunes Music Store works. People will only realistically submit to one pervasive scheme of online DRM management, and unfortunately for everyone else, the market has already chosen Valve, just like they've already chosen Apple. Ubisoft just needs to learn to deal with it.

    Having your game on Steam doesn't preclude other DD systems. D2D, Impulse, heck even Microsoft has a DD store tied to GFWL now. A lot of game releases typically happen simultaneously across Steam, D2D and Impulse these days. If they're really desperate to avoid Steam there are other options (D2D in particular have been making a lot of progress lately as a DD store).

    Although I agree it could just be that they feel this is something they could be doing themselves, realistically Ubisoft already has games on services like Steam. Heck, they've even got games on GOG.com. GOG.com! That's completely DRM free.

    subedii on
  • GothicLargoGothicLargo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Music is much, much cheaper to produce and enjoys a huge profit margin. Software engineer is one of the highest paid jobs what doesn't require a graduate degree, and it takes a bunch of them to make a game.

    The quality of indie music, like all music, is really hinged on the skill the musician. Indie games on the other hand are perpetually frozen in the sprite age. SimCity 2k was developed by a team of 3 core programmers, 7 testers, a midi composer and some sprite artists. World of Warcraft was developed by hundreds.

    Indie games are non-starters; the skill set and amounts of person-hours of work involved in creating a 3d game makes game development prohibitively expensive.

    GothicLargo on
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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Extremely poor analogy. When you open that pack of oreos, you eliminate stock from the store. No such thing occurs with digital piracy.
    Please reread it. I did not say that taking a game is like taking oreos. I said that saying you will take a game is like saying you will take oreos, such that both statements are stupid and not worth saying. Of course you can try before you buy, you can try anything before you buy. It's still wrong.
    RyanMC wrote: »
    Comparing two objects is not the same thing as comparing statements. Your unuseful statement is as unuseful as another unuseful statement, which is why you need to stop saying it.

    No, you are trying to do, is obfuscate what I was saying by trying to correlate and compare, walking into a grocery store, opening a box of oreo's and eating one and thne buying the oreo's if you liked them to torrenting a game, trying it out, and then buying it if you like it.

    A better analogy would be going into a grocery store, walking up to the open candy section(you know, the white chocolate covered pretzels and what have you), and taking a piece and seeing if they are any good before getting one of those little plastic baggies and putting 2 scoopfuls of pretzels in the bag(you know, the thing a large majority of the people do?).
    Nope, you misinterpreted me. I don't care about the action at all. As I said, your unuseful statement is still not useful. If you're not arguing that it's right to try before you buy, then why would you say it? I can say a lot of things that are possible to do.

    By the way, your better analogy would still be a terrible analogy, since both actions are still wrong to do. Good thing I didn't attempt to say that!

    UncleSporky on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Music is much, much cheaper to produce and enjoys a huge profit margin. Software engineer is one of the highest paid jobs what doesn't require a graduate degree, and it takes a bunch of them to make a game.

    The quality of indie music, like all music, is really hinged on the skill the musician. Indie games on the other hand are perpetually frozen in the sprite age. SimCity 2k was developed by a team of 3 core programmers, 7 testers, a midi composer and some sprite artists. World of Warcraft was developed by hundreds.

    Indie games are non-starters; the skill set and amounts of person-hours of work involved in creating a 3d game makes game development prohibitively expensive.

    I'm not saying it's a viable model for supporting a company, just that it's s pretty must costless way to capture revenue from people they aren't getting any at all from right now.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    accept your death, and become dangerous
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Extremely poor analogy. When you open that pack of oreos, you eliminate stock from the store. No such thing occurs with digital piracy.
    Please reread it. I did not say that taking a game is like taking oreos. I said that saying you will take a game is like saying you will take oreos, such that both statements are stupid and not worth saying. Of course you can try before you buy, you can try anything before you buy. It's still wrong.
    RyanMC wrote: »
    Comparing two objects is not the same thing as comparing statements. Your unuseful statement is as unuseful as another unuseful statement, which is why you need to stop saying it.

    No, you are trying to do, is obfuscate what I was saying by trying to correlate and compare, walking into a grocery store, opening a box of oreo's and eating one and thne buying the oreo's if you liked them to torrenting a game, trying it out, and then buying it if you like it.

    A better analogy would be going into a grocery store, walking up to the open candy section(you know, the white chocolate covered pretzels and what have you), and taking a piece and seeing if they are any good before getting one of those little plastic baggies and putting 2 scoopfuls of pretzels in the bag(you know, the thing a large majority of the people do?).
    Nope, you misinterpreted me. I don't care about the action at all. As I said, your unuseful statement is still not useful. If you're not arguing that it's right to try before you buy, then why would you say it? I can say a lot of things that are possible to do.

    By the way, your better analogy would still be a terrible analogy, since both actions are still wrong to do. Good thing I didn't attempt to say that!

    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    accept your death, and become dangerous
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Music is much, much cheaper to produce and enjoys a huge profit margin. Software engineer is one of the highest paid jobs what doesn't require a graduate degree, and it takes a bunch of them to make a game.

    The quality of indie music, like all music, is really hinged on the skill the musician. Indie games on the other hand are perpetually frozen in the sprite age. SimCity 2k was developed by a team of 3 core programmers, 7 testers, a midi composer and some sprite artists. World of Warcraft was developed by hundreds.

    Indie games are non-starters; the skill set and amounts of person-hours of work involved in creating a 3d game makes game development prohibitively expensive.

    I'm not saying it's a viable model for supporting a company, just that it's s pretty must costless way to capture revenue from people they aren't getting any at all from right now.

    It's also construed as tacit approval of the practice. Which is why you'll never see it happen.

    subedii on
  • RyanMCRyanMC Registered User
    edited February 2010
    your better analogy would still be a terrible analogy, since both actions are still wrong to do.

    I honestly can't tell if the Ivory Cavalry is charging forward with enough chivalry to drop a shirt on every puddle east of the Mississippi or if it's just a neurotic aversion to any and all conflict that's slowly propagating in this topic. So, with no clarity in sight, the best determination is "simple trolling."

    RyanMC on
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.
    Despite the fact that I did not try to compare apples to oranges, I do wish the internet would get over its hard on for countering every comparison with "but it doesn't hold up in this specific respect!"

    Well no shit, that's the point of a comparison. Two things that are similar enough in one way that it's relevant to the topic. I swear, you can't even compare apples to apples online because oh no, Granny Smith grows in a slightly warmer climate than Red Delicious and is slightly less red and therefore the whole comparison breaks down.
    RyanMC wrote: »
    your better analogy would still be a terrible analogy, since both actions are still wrong to do.

    I honestly can't tell if the Ivory Cavalry is charging forward with enough chivalry to drop a shirt on every puddle east of the Mississippi or if it's just a neurotic aversion to any and all conflict that's slowly propagating in this topic. So, with no clarity in sight, the best determination is "simple trolling."

    I guess trolling is a better reason that you brought it up than actually arguing that it's somehow just fine to do.

    UncleSporky on
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  • strebaliciousstrebalicious Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Isn't pirating something analogous to borrowing a book to read? But we don't try to do anything to keep that from happening.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.
    Despite the fact that I did not try to compare apples to oranges, I do wish the internet would get over its hard on for countering every comparison with "but it doesn't hold up in this specific respect!"

    Well no shit, that's the point of a comparison. Two things that are similar enough in one way that it's relevant to the topic. I swear, you can't even compare apples to apples online because oh no, Granny Smith grows in a slightly warmer climate than Red Delicious and is slightly less red and therefore the whole comparison breaks down.

    It doesn't hold up, period. I don't really care what kinds of fruit you think you are comparing. You can continue to try and come up with analogies that you think give you leverage against whoever you're arguing with, or you can discuss the actual issue.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • RyanMCRyanMC Registered User
    edited February 2010
    lmfao! I remember seeing that on diggnation... You win sir.

    RyanMC on
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.
    Despite the fact that I did not try to compare apples to oranges, I do wish the internet would get over its hard on for countering every comparison with "but it doesn't hold up in this specific respect!"

    Well no shit, that's the point of a comparison. Two things that are similar enough in one way that it's relevant to the topic. I swear, you can't even compare apples to apples online because oh no, Granny Smith grows in a slightly warmer climate than Red Delicious and is slightly less red and therefore the whole comparison breaks down.

    While I agree with you in a general sense - people do tend to reject any and all comparisons outright, or look for ways to diminish the value or merit of a comparison without actually giving it any though- I would say that in this specific case, the complained is correct. "Software piracy" and "stealing" are two vastly different things and you cannot really apply the conclusions you draw from the examination of one to the other, which makes a rejection of this comparison correct.
    I suppose I shouldn't have used a statement that sounded like I was comparing the actions. How about this:

    Saying piracy is a way to try before you buy is like coming into this thread and saying you enjoy watching the playful antics of Red Skelton. Neither is particularly helpful or worth saying.

    UncleSporky on
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  • quarthinosquarthinos Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    subedii wrote: »

    Having your game on Steam doesn't preclude other DD systems. D2D, Impulse, heck even Microsoft has a DD store tied to GFWL now. A lot of game releases typically happen simultaneously across Steam, D2D and Impulse these days. If they're really desperate to avoid Steam there are other options (D2D in particular have been making a lot of progress lately as a DD store).

    Although I agree it could just be that they feel this is something they could be doing themselves, realistically Ubisoft already has games on services like Steam. Heck, they've even got games on GOG.com. GOG.com! That's completely DRM free.

    Thank you for this post! I get sick and tired of everyone implying that digital download == Steam. Impulse's ancestors (dregnin network, anyone?) were available before Steam. I think Steam might have better market penetration because all the "cool kids" play shooters and steam was originally for shooters, but it's NOT the only one.
    Jephery wrote: »
    Isn't pirating something analogous to borrowing a book to read? But we don't try to do anything to keep that from happening.

    Sort of. Books are physical things that are sold and resold. Software (as currently "sold" anyway), is a license to use the program in accordance with the enclosed rules. So if you resell or give away a copy of software, you've violated the contract that you implicitly agreed to when you gave money to the retailer. Should such a contract be legally binding? The courts can't decide. When software was big stacks of floppies (Lotus 123, Novell Netware, etc.) there was a sticker on the separate envelope containing the discs that said "By breaking this seal, you are agreeing to the license agreement in the enclosed manual." or words to that effect. The EULA you "agree" to when you install the software is the "contract" the software publishers say you've broken when they sue for piracy, becuase proving copyright infringement is a PITA, but contract law is easier. Of course, taking money for someone and then giving them a sealed box that contains the usage agreement between the parties is kinda silly, but law is like that sometimes.

    quarthinos on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.
    Despite the fact that I did not try to compare apples to oranges, I do wish the internet would get over its hard on for countering every comparison with "but it doesn't hold up in this specific respect!"

    Well no shit, that's the point of a comparison. Two things that are similar enough in one way that it's relevant to the topic. I swear, you can't even compare apples to apples online because oh no, Granny Smith grows in a slightly warmer climate than Red Delicious and is slightly less red and therefore the whole comparison breaks down.

    While I agree with you in a general sense - people do tend to reject any and all comparisons outright, or look for ways to diminish the value or merit of a comparison without actually giving it any though- I would say that in this specific case, the complained is correct. "Software piracy" and "stealing" are two vastly different things and you cannot really apply the conclusions you draw from the examination of one to the other, which makes a rejection of this comparison correct.
    I suppose I shouldn't have used a statement that sounded like I was comparing the actions. How about this:

    Saying piracy is a way to try before you buy is like coming into this thread and saying you enjoy watching the playful antics of Red Skelton. Neither is particularly helpful or worth saying.

    Damn it, I didn't delete my post quick enough. Anyway, I don't want to get drawn into this, but the point is: Some generalizations and comparisons are stupid, and some are not. But most usually are.

    Drez on
  • MonkeyConQuesoMonkeyConQueso Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Overall I agree with your approach to this and point, but I want to point out that this point is wrong, because it's exactly the sort of BS that many of the DRM snake oil salesmen use to justify their product.

    Every pirated copy is NOT a potential sale.

    Only some of them are.

    You need to work on an educated estimate of what percent this is to make a statement on what influence piracy had on a game(s)/developers failure or success.

    Alright, I'll file that under "you have a point". I wish I had numbers, but I'm an observer in what I've seen in the community over the years since the days of the BBS'. I won't debate on what the percentages are, because I don't have many facts to make a compelling statement without sounding like I pulled them out of my ass. Like I did. Whoops.

    Maybe I should approach my point differently using facts that I know... Take my above statement as a gut feeling, and observance over the years.

    Onwards then...:

    1) How many people pirate games that they could actually buy? I mean, what's the point of pirating a game if you wouldn't ever buy it? You're playing it, so you must like aspects of it, right?

    2) How many people pirate a game JUST because of the DRM? Say that out loud if you did...does that sound right? Buy the game, then crack the DRM - support the game you want to buy.

    3) How many people pirate games just because they can't afford them? Honestly...what happened to saving your money for something you want?

    Obviously people aren't really going to answer those, but think about it. What really is the point of piracy? It's theft, right? Just like the PA comic today, it's a vicious circle of stupid company vs stupid pirate, where the non-pirate have to pay the price, literally.

    EDIT: (I'll preface this - this is my opinion and gut feeling!) As RyanMC pointed out, pirating isn't killing the PC community. Really? I mean, yes, there are smaller developers who are still going strong with the PC world. But look around, there's quite a few large game companies who are becoming more and more restrictive with the PC market. Ubisoft's move is just something that's been coming for a while, and has finally reached us. Out of everyone here who wants to buy an Ubisoft title who has consoles and a PC, who changed their mind on purchasing an Ubisoft game for the PC and will instead buy it on the console? The allmighty dollar speaks, and if more and more users are flocking to the console for ease of use, then, well that just further reinforces the concept of releasing PC games as an afterthought, or not at all.

    Maybe the PC community won't die, but it may suffer a reduced attention from developers. We'll see, I guess.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I've often wondered why publishers don't put up a prominent page basically saying "pirated our game? Pay us what you think it's worth" (via paypal/CC/whatever.) We've seen independent recording artists and writers have decent success with this, and it makes me wonder if game companies could too.

    Music is much, much cheaper to produce and enjoys a huge profit margin. Software engineer is one of the highest paid jobs what doesn't require a graduate degree, and it takes a bunch of them to make a game.

    The quality of indie music, like all music, is really hinged on the skill the musician. Indie games on the other hand are perpetually frozen in the sprite age. SimCity 2k was developed by a team of 3 core programmers, 7 testers, a midi composer and some sprite artists. World of Warcraft was developed by hundreds.

    Indie games are non-starters; the skill set and amounts of person-hours of work involved in creating a 3d game makes game development prohibitively expensive.

    I'm not saying it's a viable model for supporting a company, just that it's s pretty must costless way to capture revenue from people they aren't getting any at all from right now.

    It's also construed as tacit approval of the practice. Which is why you'll never see it happen.

    I guess. I don't really see why it matters, though. People who are willing to pay full price for an actual copy from a B&M or Steam are already going to do it; you might be able to get a chunk of change out of the folks who claim they're doing the try before you buy thing, though.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »

    Every analogy between real property and IP is dumb. No one yet has come up with a good one, because they are fundamentally different things with different regulatory needs.

    I can get behind this statement so hard. The very basis and principles of IP law as they exist today are very different to those of physical property.

    subedii on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    quarthinos wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »

    Having your game on Steam doesn't preclude other DD systems. D2D, Impulse, heck even Microsoft has a DD store tied to GFWL now. A lot of game releases typically happen simultaneously across Steam, D2D and Impulse these days. If they're really desperate to avoid Steam there are other options (D2D in particular have been making a lot of progress lately as a DD store).

    Although I agree it could just be that they feel this is something they could be doing themselves, realistically Ubisoft already has games on services like Steam. Heck, they've even got games on GOG.com. GOG.com! That's completely DRM free.

    Thank you for this post! I get sick and tired of everyone implying that digital download == Steam. Impulse's ancestors (dregnin network, anyone?) were available before Steam. I think Steam might have better market penetration because all the "cool kids" play shooters and steam was originally for shooters, but it's NOT the only one.

    I would say it has better market penetration because it:

    a) Supports the largest number of publishers (and, by extension, has the largest digital download game repository).

    b) Often runs sales that severely undercuts its lesser-known competitors like Impulse. Only once or twice, to my knowledge, has Impulse or Gamer's Gate offered a game cheaper than Steam in any given week. And even if it had, Steam is very likely to offer some deeper discount at some point in the future.

    c) Comes in lovely puke-green color scheme.

    Frankly, I think (c) is the clincher. I get a tingling sensation in my gut whenever I see that pukish interface. (I'm teasing, it doesn't really look that bad. I liked the holiday sale aesthetic a lot.)

    Drez on
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Obviously people aren't really going to answer those, but think about it. What really is the point of piracy? It's theft, right? Just like the PA comic today, it's a vicious circle of stupid company vs stupid pirate, where the non-pirate have to pay the price, literally.

    Is it really theft though? If I borrow a book from a friend, read all of it, and never buy a copy of my own, did I steal the book? If I borrow a movie from a friend, watch all of it, and never buy a ticket or my own dvd, did I steal it? Maybe if I really like the book or movie I might get my own copy for future enjoyment, but not likely. Maybe I'll read the first chapter and buy my own to finish it.

    Now, digital "borrowing" is different because of scale - instead of sharing it with one or two friends, you're sharing it with possibly millions of people. But is that so different from a million people sharing a book, movie, or music with their friends, who may never get their own copy?

    Jephery on
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  • RyanMCRyanMC Registered User
    edited February 2010
    where the non-pirate have to pay the price, literally.

    That is the whole point! They are willing to punish everyone for the actions of people who may or may not ever be a customer of theirs in the 1st place.

    Also, your question 1 and question 3 answer themselves. Also, yes people do pirate simply because of drm. If you buy a game WITH that kind of drm you are supporting it whether you crack it later or not.

    The best thing to do would be to not buy it NOT pirate it, but there are those who don't either have that kind of self control or they have wanted the game so long that actions be damned they are going to play it w/o supporting the drm. Luckly for me I like all game genre's so if there is a game I like and a company does something I don't like, I just buy a different game, but not everyone is like me or has the same tastes.

    Copyright infringement is a messy thing with no easy answers, however I think punishing the faithful will have the COMPLETE opposite reaction to what they are hoping to avoid.

    RyanMC on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Jephery wrote: »
    Obviously people aren't really going to answer those, but think about it. What really is the point of piracy? It's theft, right? Just like the PA comic today, it's a vicious circle of stupid company vs stupid pirate, where the non-pirate have to pay the price, literally.

    Is it really theft though? If I borrow a book from a friend, read all of it, and never buy a copy of my own, did I steal the book? If I borrow a movie from a friend, watch all of it, and never buy a ticket or my own dvd, did I steal it? Maybe if I really like the book or movie I might get my own copy for future enjoyment, but not likely. Maybe I'll read the first chapter and buy my own to finish it.

    Now, digital "borrowing" is different because of scale - instead of sharing it with one or two friends, you're sharing it with possibly millions of people. But is that so different from a million people sharing a book, movie, or music with their friends, who may never get their own copy?

    it's not theft, it is copyright infringement.

    There is no problem with a hypothetical book being passed from one person to another until a million people have read it. There is a problem with a million people making their own copy of the book. That's why it is "copy" right.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Jephery wrote: »
    Is it really theft though? If I borrow a book from a friend, read all of it, and never buy a copy of my own, did I steal the book? If I borrow a movie from a friend, watch all of it, and never buy a ticket or my own dvd, did I steal it? Maybe if I really like the book or movie I might get my own copy for future enjoyment, but not likely. Maybe I'll read the first chapter and buy my own to finish it.

    Now, digital "borrowing" is different because of scale - instead of sharing it with one or two friends, you're sharing it with possibly millions of people. But is that so different from a million people sharing a book, movie, or music with their friends?
    There are laws against public readings or viewings of too much copyrighted material at once, the same sort of laws that define plagiarism in scholarly articles. But it is not illegal to let someone else experience content they didn't buy, so long as you didn't physically make a complete copy of that content.

    You didn't steal the book any more than you stole a second hand game you bought at Gamestop. If you borrow a book from a friend and photocopy the entire thing for later reading, then yes, that is illegal.

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  • strebaliciousstrebalicious Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Jephery wrote: »
    Obviously people aren't really going to answer those, but think about it. What really is the point of piracy? It's theft, right? Just like the PA comic today, it's a vicious circle of stupid company vs stupid pirate, where the non-pirate have to pay the price, literally.

    Is it really theft though? If I borrow a book from a friend, read all of it, and never buy a copy of my own, did I steal the book? If I borrow a movie from a friend, watch all of it, and never buy a ticket or my own dvd, did I steal it? Maybe if I really like the book or movie I might get my own copy for future enjoyment, but not likely. Maybe I'll read the first chapter and buy my own to finish it.

    Now, digital "borrowing" is different because of scale - instead of sharing it with one or two friends, you're sharing it with possibly millions of people. But is that so different from a million people sharing a book, movie, or music with their friends, who may never get their own copy?

    Torrents wouldn't fit your analogy. Borrowing a book from a friend equates to borrowing Bayonetta from your friend. Torrenting would equate to borrowing the book and copying every page to keep for yourself.

    strebalicious on
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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Then the issue of digital piracy is purely a legal one, not a moral one. There is no theft involved, its an infringement of a legally protected copyright. So no one should be going around claiming a moral high ground.

    Jephery on
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